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20 Aug 2015, 14:27
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#1
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Commander in Briefs!
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 783
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The power of Cloak.
I'll start by saying that I'm against Xans(Etd) cloak ability, in its current form as being out of balanced with the rest of the races (Zero ship sized def fakes).
Lets start a scenario.
4 players (2 xan, 2 ter) - lets ignore stats, all equal value.
Terrans targets each Xan, with 1 Real and one Fake (this leaves one def).
Xans can send out 2 Zero Sized fleets to def (this leave 1 for attack).
Xans can use Inc scans to get terran real fleets, or just look at fleet sizes (yeah i know it takes a while to get inc scans but still).
Terrans have no clue where the real Xan def fleets are, the entire round.
Now in reverse
4 players (2 xan, 2 ter) - lets ignore stats, all equal value.
Xan targets each Terran, with 1 Real and one Fake (this leaves one def).
Terran can send out 2 fleets to def (this leave 1 for attack), but the fleet size is found on a JGP, which is harder to keep hidden.
Terran can use Inc scans to get xan real fleets.
Xans have 2 ways to work out which fleet is real, the real fleet sizes work in the very early game.
Now play this scenario with an entire alliance as cloaked...
I propose removing the cloaking ability from all ships that use it, as allowing anything to be able to send fleets with almost no value, undermines the any kind of balance.
NOTE: People can still fake Defence at anytime, as well as Attacks at the start of a round.
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20 Aug 2015, 14:31
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,143
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Sort of defeats the purpose of XAN doesn't it?
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20 Aug 2015, 16:18
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#3
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Commander in Briefs!
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 783
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eksero
Sort of defeats the purpose of XAN doesn't it?
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These are my perceived designed race specs.
Xan has been High damage, low armor, low init (fires usually after EMP).
Ter has medium damage, High Armor, medium init.
Zik "Steal" has high damage, high armor, fires last.
Cat "EMP" has been high EMP Eff, low armor, fires first.
Cloak just adds a slew of issues that shouldn't happen.
Early PA had military scans, which showed you fleet info, including cloaked ships. Yet the current system removed the Military Scan and made an entire race cloaked.
You could adapt the landing scan to be able to see cloaked ship "quantity" ETA 1 from your planet, this still enables normal fakes.
You could adapt the JGP scan to be able to reveal cloaked ship "quantity" ETA 1 from the target planet (looking out the window), but only if a fleet you own is there at ETA 1 (this also stops scanners from using the scan feature).
To be honest, just remove cloak.
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<Kila> WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH MY PRECIOUS FORUMS
<Zeyi> 24h forum closure
<Zeyi> all posts recalled
"he's got a proven track record when it comes to showy art composition" - Tommy
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<MrLobster|PM> i have 2, the pa page, and the website for naked light pictures
<Ave> both has bad gfx
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20 Aug 2015, 18:15
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#4
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: The power of Cloak.
If cloak was so overpowered, a Xan planet would win every round, and alliances would pick a fleet strategy that at least involves Xan every round. Since this isn't the case, something must be wrong with your argument.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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20 Aug 2015, 18:22
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#5
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BlueTuba
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,339
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Re: The power of Cloak.
I believe the power of cloaking is meant to be reflected in generally lower inits in the ship stats, I may be wrong.
__________________
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
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20 Aug 2015, 18:26
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#6
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: The power of Cloak.
To back up my assertion with data, here's the number of top 100 planets for each race since r20, when Etd was introduced:
Ter 701 (16.7%)
Cat 838 (20.0%)
Xan 981 (23.4%)
Zik 901 (21.5%)
Etd 779 (18.5%)
And here's the top 200:
Ter 1402 (16.7%)
Cat 1697 (20.2%)
Xan 1950 (23.2%)
Zik 1743 (20.8%)
Etd 1508 (18.0%)
So yes, there is some imbalance, but it's a far cry from unfixable.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 5 Sep 2015 at 10:10.
Reason: Switched Zik and Etd
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20 Aug 2015, 20:00
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#7
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Dictator
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 634
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Re: The power of Cloak.
mz do you have anything on 3 pods for xans vs none 3 pods for xan rounds?
I'd expect 3 pod rounds to be dominated with xans due to the faking ability. I believe m0rph3us stats a couple of rounds ago managed to balance xan by removing a pod whilst other races had 3?
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20 Aug 2015, 22:06
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 601
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
To back up my assertion with data, here's the number of top 100 planets for each race since r20, when Etd was introduced:
Ter 701
Cat 838
Xan 981
Etd 779
Zik 901
So yes, there is some imbalance, but it's a far cry from unfixable.
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Great stat, but you'd need to factor in the number of players who play each race for those rounds for it to be truly reflective. Not that I'm saying you should waste your time doing that, but yeah
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21 Aug 2015, 00:50
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,038
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Why not make landing scan reveal all.
__________________
Did some stuff, played here n there done just about all there is to do
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21 Aug 2015, 09:11
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#10
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Commander in Briefs!
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 783
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
If cloak was so overpowered, a Xan planet would win every round, and alliances would pick a fleet strategy that at least involves Xan every round. Since this isn't the case, something must be wrong with your argument.
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There isn't anything wrong with my argument, what if we gave cloak to Cat, Ter or Zik. Would you say its balanced?
I'm not talking stats here, as they should be pretty close vs AC vs DC, against other races.
How on earth is this balanced, 1 Terran can launch 3 fleets, but unless they have lots of Fi/Co for a fake, they cant compete with a 3 Zero Sized fleet Xan, who effectively has 3x the fleet he should.
Its a Schrodinger cat paradox, all Xan fleets are and are not real.
Its a device which subverts game play mechanics. You should be able to get the data required, even if it is hard to get. Cloak makes it impossible.
We had Military Scans in at least R8, thats 2 rounds after the 4 races were introduced. Not sure if they existed post R10 PAX.
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<Kila> WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH MY PRECIOUS FORUMS
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"he's got a proven track record when it comes to showy art composition" - Tommy
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<Ave> both has bad gfx
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21 Aug 2015, 09:48
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,386
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Re: The power of Cloak.
So if you remove the cloak ability from Xan, then the race will be non-playable. Xan is cloaked for a reason; it is considerably weaker.
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21 Aug 2015, 11:07
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#12
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Xan is surely a frustrating race, but its all down to stats usualy
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RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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21 Aug 2015, 11:31
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#13
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Dictator
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 634
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Cloak is part of the issue for sure but as has been mentioned thats just the ability of that race.
I do believe giving xans 3 pods is what over powers them quickly coupled with cloak and I have noticed xans not being the typical "paper ships" that they once were.
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21 Aug 2015, 12:33
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#14
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: The power of Cloak.
In my stats i always made xan pods very expensive.
Im sure mz got a reason for why this isnt a good solution to counter faking?
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RainbowS
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21 Aug 2015, 14:44
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#15
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster
There isn't anything wrong with my argument
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Your argument is irrelevant if there's insufficient data to support your conclusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkee
mz do you have anything on 3 pods for xans vs none 3 pods for xan rounds?
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If you list me the rounds where Xan had 1 fewer pod than at least 3 of the other races, I'll get the data. I suspect there are only a handful of rounds that fit that description though, in which case it would be weak evidence, whichever the way the pendulum swings.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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21 Aug 2015, 16:15
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#16
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Commander in Briefs!
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 783
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Your argument is irrelevant if there's insufficient data to support your conclusion.
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Data isn't required when the theory is there plain to see, its not that Xan is overpowered, but the cloak is overpowered.
Just because you don't see a Xan at the top every round mean there isn't something fundamentally wrong with it.
Alliances play a huge factor in deciding what races are in play, I wouldn't be surprised if this round sees a Xan on top, even an ETD with a few cloaked ships.
I don't see removing the cloak making the race unplayable, it will just take more skill.
I am in no way afraid of fake fleets, just that I would at least like to know that there are ships flying, and every race has a chance to work that out.
When a round start and scanners have ho research done, you can fake with 1 ship.
Then scanners get a JGP scan and then you can start faking with FI/CO
Once players start getting Incoming scans, people will just revert back to single fleets, with fakes for def.
__________________
<Kila> WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH MY PRECIOUS FORUMS
<Zeyi> 24h forum closure
<Zeyi> all posts recalled
"he's got a proven track record when it comes to showy art composition" - Tommy
<Sigi> Light: can I ask u how many open internet-windows u always have?
<MrLobster|PM> i have 2, the pa page, and the website for naked light pictures
<Ave> both has bad gfx
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21 Aug 2015, 17:12
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 477
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Removing cloak is stupid. You can balance one good attribute by worsening other attributes which is how it works now. If a race is good or bad is mostly decided by the stat makers each round and everyone is free to pick whatever race they feel like playing or they think is the best every round. The system is good and the game would only get more boring by removing cloak.
And other races can also fake, it's a bit more work but also more reward as everyone expect xan to fake, other races they often forget to cover vs fake.
Note: If you use JPG to determine if non cloak races are faking you are their prime target.
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21 Aug 2015, 18:58
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#18
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General (Adjective Army)
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Yorkshire, England.
Posts: 825
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Re: The power of Cloak.
We've had cloaked ships for more than 13 years so perhaps it's not as broken as all that.
(Granted we had Military scans until the middle of 2003 but we've still had the current arrangement for 12 years).
__________________
Amnion (aka The Arcane Chas of Arcania) - Playing PA under those and other pseudonyms every genuine round since Round 2. Most recently (and insignificantly):
Onset of Apathy R94 | Stacks of Resources R95 | The Necromancer of Dol Guldur R96
70 Years of Queen Elizabeth R97 | Worst of The Worst R98
Knights of the Green Shield R99 | Look Out of The Window R100 | Most of All R102
Hard of Hearing (2:7:1) R103 | The Lateness of Your Application (1:6:6) R104 | Kinnison of Tellus (5:1:2) R105
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21 Aug 2015, 19:07
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#19
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster
Data isn't required
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Bullshit. Bull. Shit. 100%. Unadulterated. Grade-A. bullshit.
A statement for which evidence is 'not required' is dogma, not fact. Go bend a ****ing fork.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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21 Aug 2015, 21:12
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#20
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Sain†s
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 331
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Re: The power of Cloak.
It doesn't take bloody rocket science to understand Xan is cloaked because being able to fake the ship numbers you've sent counters the fact that the actual ships fall over like dominos in a hurricane. They might be reasonably popular every round, but so are Cath, who you can also say are "overpowered" when taken out of the context of a full round. Surely being able to fire first and hit more value than you is a massive, game-winning advantage. Isn't it? Is it bollocks.
You're right, let's do away with the data, your assertion that the top 100 every round is 95 Xans and a handful of balls-to-the-wall Caths is proof enough!
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☠ | ROCK | BowS | Sain†s
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22 Aug 2015, 12:24
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#21
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KK
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 662
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Re: The power of Cloak.
While I don't agree with the premise to remove cloaking, it does seem to me that the cost efficiency of either/both A/C & D/C of Xan ships seems to be increasing round by round making it a more effective part of an alliance strategy.
I remember when both Xan AC's/DC's were in the 300's and sometimes sub 300, but it seems to me that statmakers now either rightly or wrongly are making Xan more powerful (I'm not sure whether this is down to bias/general preference or just to simply make the stats appear more balanced without taking into account sufficiently the effect of a cloak advantage)
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30 Aug 2015, 11:52
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#22
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Commander in Briefs!
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 783
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy
...but so are Cath, who you can also say are "overpowered" when taken out of the context of a full round. Surely being able to fire first and hit more value than you is a massive, game-winning advantage. Isn't it? Is it bollocks.
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Cath has the positive of being able to stop ships very well, but countered to this is inability to kill ships.
Every option should have a counter.
Attacking fakes are countered by the "incoming scan".
The Incoming scan is countered by Distorters.
Distorters are countered by Amps.
Amps are countered by reduced CU for Distorters.
Cloak was countered by Military scans, but they were removed sometime in the last 40 rounds (no mention of when they were removed in the "Changes To Pa").
Xan cloak is not countered apart from a minute reduced efficiency, and guess work.
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<Kila> WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH MY PRECIOUS FORUMS
<Zeyi> 24h forum closure
<Zeyi> all posts recalled
"he's got a proven track record when it comes to showy art composition" - Tommy
<Sigi> Light: can I ask u how many open internet-windows u always have?
<MrLobster|PM> i have 2, the pa page, and the website for naked light pictures
<Ave> both has bad gfx
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30 Aug 2015, 15:12
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#23
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Don't make me declare war
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 2,913
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Re: The power of Cloak.
cloak is countered by amps/inc scans
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30 Aug 2015, 15:15
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#24
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
cloak is countered by amps/inc scans
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It actualy isnt.
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RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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30 Aug 2015, 16:41
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#25
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Don't make me declare war
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 2,913
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Re: The power of Cloak.
yes it is. get inc scans and decent amps and cloaked is pretty much removed
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30 Aug 2015, 16:42
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#26
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Don't make me declare war
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 2,913
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Re: The power of Cloak.
for attack of course
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30 Aug 2015, 18:37
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#27
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Commander in Briefs!
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 783
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster
Attacking fakes are countered by the "incoming scan".
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Yeah its the zero fleet sized defence that has no counter.
__________________
<Kila> WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH MY PRECIOUS FORUMS
<Zeyi> 24h forum closure
<Zeyi> all posts recalled
"he's got a proven track record when it comes to showy art composition" - Tommy
<Sigi> Light: can I ask u how many open internet-windows u always have?
<MrLobster|PM> i have 2, the pa page, and the website for naked light pictures
<Ave> both has bad gfx
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30 Aug 2015, 18:41
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#28
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KK
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 662
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
for attack of course
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What if they send two pods types and have for example similar fi/fr fleets?
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30 Aug 2015, 19:27
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#29
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Don't make me declare war
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 2,913
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster
Yeah its the zero fleet sized defence that has no counter.
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the same could be said of any defence, eg, any bs/cr fleet can be faked by co/fi
should we remove all races?
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30 Aug 2015, 19:27
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#30
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Don't make me declare war
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 2,913
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypton
What if they send two pods types and have for example similar fi/fr fleets?
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then they will have a fking shit fi fleet that anyone should be able to self-cover, with most stats
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30 Aug 2015, 22:25
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#31
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Retard0r
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,164
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Anything is better than massive emp overpower, GOGOG XAN!
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30 Aug 2015, 23:02
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#32
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king of carrot flowers
Join Date: May 2012
Location: 'Ampshire
Posts: 101
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Bullshit. Bull. Shit. 100%. Unadulterated. Grade-A. bullshit.
A statement for which evidence is 'not required' is dogma, not fact. Go bend a ****ing fork.
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"If we have data, let’s look at data. If all we have are opinions, let’s go with mine." Jim Barksdale
__________________
I finished high once, not as high as you, but then I ain't talking about rankings..
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31 Aug 2015, 05:33
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#33
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KK
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 662
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
then they will have a fking shit fi fleet that anyone should be able to self-cover, with most stats
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And what if stat makers continue to make Xans ac/dc ridiculous?
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31 Aug 2015, 07:43
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#34
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Don't make me declare war
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 2,913
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Re: The power of Cloak.
thats an issue with stat makers, not the races
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31 Aug 2015, 08:20
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#35
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KK
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 662
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Basically what i think + apocco for approving them. Thanks Forest
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31 Aug 2015, 17:52
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#36
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Bi-Winning
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: nfi
Posts: 290
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Re: The power of Cloak.
hahaha most retarded thread i've ever read....
but in all seriousness this could all be fixed by removing the attack button and allowing people to just sim planet their way to the win without being bothered by having to build constructions that scan stuff and such and having a high enough iq to do a calc.
probably wouldn't matter how shit stats are either
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31 Aug 2015, 19:53
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#37
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Don't make me declare war
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 2,913
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypton
Basically what i think + apocco for approving them. Thanks Forest
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i didnt say i think the stats are right/wrong though ;p
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31 Aug 2015, 21:25
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#38
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,386
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Sorry, but I have to say. What the actual ****? Are you for real?
I felt this was quite fitting:
<NoXiouS> this mrlobster really is an idiot <NoXiouS> can someone get BB back to forums and throw this lobster out <NoXiouS> I'll rather read BBs nonsense than this fools
Last edited by Clouds; 31 Aug 2015 at 22:18.
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4 Sep 2015, 22:17
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#39
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NE
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 828
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by baggy
"If we have data, let’s look at data. If all we have are opinions, let’s go with mine." Jim Barksdale
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I as going to quote this too (because I ripped it from your LinkedIn)
Lobster, I have to agree with the majority on this one. There is no evidence to back up Xans superiority. It finishes consistently every round, the same as every other race. I echo your frustrations on the fake defence but it's no different from a Terran faking Wyverns with harpy, or roaches with spiders etc.
Let's just play all Xan next round and own etc. etc.
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PEACE.
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5 Sep 2015, 10:01
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#40
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: The power of Cloak.
Just to be clear: the fact that Xans has 26% more top 100 finishes than Etd and 40% more than Ter does tell me there's a problem, and we should look to fix that in the stats for future rounds. However, we aren't talking 100% or 200% here. In my view, a relatively small imbalance like that does not warrant huge sweeping changes like removing cloak altogether.
I suspect we'll be able to significantly reduce the imbalance by twiddling with the effs. Reducing Xan D/C by 5% and A/C by 10% sounds like a good start to me. Maybe buff Ter and Etd by a similar amount.
P.S. Updated my earlier post with top 200 numbers. Roughly the same ratios.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 5 Sep 2015 at 10:11.
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