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Unread 1 Feb 2017, 20:11   #1
Jintao
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R71 shipstats

Kaiba was doing r71 shipstats until he went MIA. But i don't see any better offers so i'm looking at finishing his set. The only thing that needs doing is some ship balancing.

You can find his set Here.

In the past we had sets where the creator descided to remove etd & zik. Kaiba believes that cloak is too strong and we should have a round without cloak. So that is what he created. I think it might prove to be an interesting round where you can't sent pods all round long and end t10.

Any suggestions/comments about kaiba's set are welcome before i use my red marker to edit them.
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Unread 1 Feb 2017, 21:45   #2
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Re: R71 shipstats

I dont think much needs to be done to these set of stats personally I would close the 0 loss targetting but still playable stats imo
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Unread 2 Feb 2017, 15:24   #3
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Re: R71 shipstats

don't personally like T3 much and the targetings and inits in general "feel wrong". I'll have a closer look and will post a more helpful comment once done so.
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Unread 2 Feb 2017, 15:37   #4
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Re: R71 shipstats

Playing without cloak will be fun and I applaud it. We have to make sure EMP isn't off the scale tough, 160% makes it very strong when there's no 0 fleets flying.
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Unread 2 Feb 2017, 20:39   #5
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Re: R71 shipstats

Not much pod crashing into the top 10 going on this round.


I think emp is just as much of the problem. We would be far better of to make a set with no cath if you are going to accept removing xan.
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Unread 2 Feb 2017, 22:26   #6
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Re: R71 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papadoc View Post
Not much pod crashing into the top 10 going on this round.


I think emp is just as much of the problem. We would be far better of to make a set with no cath if you are going to accept removing xan.
This

Would like a bcalc with those stats added in to play around with the possible scenarios to get a better idea of it.

Also bring back xan, what the smurf are you doing.
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Unread 3 Feb 2017, 00:06   #7
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Re: R71 shipstats

They are on the speedgame server so presumably you can use speedgame.planetarion bcalcs to play around http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...rn=42949998969
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Unread 3 Feb 2017, 00:58   #8
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Re: R71 shipstats

no cloak sounds about as fun as Lilith fair.....
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Unread 3 Feb 2017, 02:26   #9
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Re: R71 shipstats

Emp is pretty crazy this round.

That being said, it just doesn't work if it isn't good. It could probably have been toned down some, but it has to be "good" to work.

As for Xan, cloaking is a powerful thing. I usually play Xan, and rarely send real fleets. Launch two fakes, go to bed. No waking up at eta 1 for scans since all you lose are pods. Moreso with lol-waves of fakes.

It's always good to change things up, might as well give it a shot without Xan for one round.
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Unread 3 Feb 2017, 06:19   #10
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Re: R71 shipstats

No xan for a round Sounds good to me, i can easily Stay in my retirement then.

I allready fear the Day where a 6th race is introduced, and forces me to sign up again.

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Unread 3 Feb 2017, 14:54   #11
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Re: R71 shipstats

yeah, personally I'd limit emp to a few ships here and there (prolly like 3-4 on cath, 1-2 on etd). Being able to emp everything twice with half the value just breaks the balance and "forces" everyone to have emp rather than it being a single strategy among others.
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Unread 5 Feb 2017, 06:56   #12
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Re: R71 shipstats

Worst idea ever.

If your going to take Xan away, at the very least include a 5th race or give every races the ability to have a third pod class.
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Unread 5 Feb 2017, 10:51   #13
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by ChroNOS View Post
Worst idea ever.

If your going to take Xan away, at the very least include a 5th race or give every races the ability to have a third pod class.
Every race has 3 pods?
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Unread 5 Feb 2017, 16:38   #14
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Re: R71 shipstats

I'd make Zik more interesting, before arguing for a 3 pod set.
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Unread 5 Feb 2017, 18:43   #15
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Veil05 View Post
Every race has 3 pods?
Ah my bad, I barely took a glimpse because no xan made me go crazy.

I think it's bearable with 3 pods class, I still feel having Xan would be better. I feel like it's a race that can potentially help smaller tags a lot more than the larger one. EMP are a bigger problem.
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Unread 6 Feb 2017, 15:26   #16
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Re: R71 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChroNOS View Post
Ah my bad, I barely took a glimpse because no xan made me go crazy.

I think it's bearable with 3 pods class, I still feel having Xan would be better. I feel like it's a race that can potentially help smaller tags a lot more than the larger one. EMP are a bigger problem.
Actually in practice the opposite is true. Small tags cannot handle large quantities of incommings so Xan just hammers them as its too much to calc and cover with all those 'are they aren't they' fleets. But then again your first post in this thread showed how much effort you put into looking at these stats.

Back to business anyway and sorry Jintao I have been slammed in RI. Just saw your email yesterday.

I don't have the time to finish them and I'm confident you know what I was going for with these so happy for you to finish them.

I wanted a round where lazy pod play wasn't rewarded. I have made these stats so that faking is still very possible. It just takes a brain to do it. So many bad players rank well cos of lucky xan pod lands. So with these the thinkers and the cream should rise to the top
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Unread 7 Feb 2017, 07:17   #17
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Re: R71 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Actually in practice the opposite is true. Small tags cannot handle large quantities of incommings so Xan just hammers them as its too much to calc and cover with all those 'are they aren't they' fleets. But then again your first post in this thread showed how much effort you put into looking at these stats.

Back to business anyway and sorry Jintao I have been slammed in RI. Just saw your email yesterday.

I don't have the time to finish them and I'm confident you know what I was going for with these so happy for you to finish them.

I wanted a round where lazy pod play wasn't rewarded. I have made these stats so that faking is still very possible. It just takes a brain to do it. So many bad players rank well cos of lucky xan pod lands. So with these the thinkers and the cream should rise to the top
I like this set quite alot. Lots of faking options. Good work
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Unread 7 Feb 2017, 09:28   #18
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Re: R71 shipstats

I like Sandvold so I am happy if he is happy
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Unread 7 Feb 2017, 12:02   #19
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Re: R71 shipstats

I like Cheggers so I am happy if he is happy
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Unread 7 Feb 2017, 17:01   #20
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Re: R71 shipstats

I like Advantix so i am happy if he is happy
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Unread 7 Feb 2017, 17:48   #21
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Re: R71 shipstats

how many cathaarian xhees does it take to pilot a mantis
whats the minimum sustainable level
does mobility suffer by crew losses
can the chimera be adjusted with anti-torpedo system
can i replace the cuckoldrium in buccaneer's hull with titanium

so many important questions left uncovered
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Unread 13 Feb 2017, 20:14   #22
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Re: R71 shipstats

Everyone complains about Xan because of the cloak, but no one cares when it comes to how OP Cath are, and it's consistency of being OP.

Just a bunch of idiots whining about Xan because they have to sacrifice fleets to defend an inc they can't i-scan to see if it's a fake or not.

Whatever.
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Unread 13 Feb 2017, 21:26   #23
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Re: R71 shipstats

Yes it is rather difficult to tell whether the lack of cloak will make cat op. I am inclined to think it will. I think the solution should be to up several ships emp res to make them anti cat ships. Whether this is done making one anti cat ship per race or making a race the anti cat race I dont mind. By this I mean some ships where emp eff against them is more like 120-130% rather than 160% on t1.
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Unread 19 Feb 2017, 23:00   #24
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Re: R71 shipstats

I went through the set with my red marker this weekend.:
  • Targetting/class/init/type all look good
  • AC/DC is what i would call balanced atm. Might still be some minor tweaks to it later
  • Considering changing the phoenix from steal to EMP
  • EMP/EMP resistance i will do in the comming days. I was thinking of lowering t1 to about 140% and have t2 be around 125%

Any comments? Speak now or forever hold your peace.
They will probably be final at EORC! Not much time left...

Last edited by Jintao; 19 Feb 2017 at 23:13.
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Unread 20 Feb 2017, 07:12   #25
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Re: R71 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
I went through the set with my red marker this weekend.:
  • Targetting/class/init/type all look good
  • AC/DC is what i would call balanced atm. Might still be some minor tweaks to it later
  • Considering changing the phoenix from steal to EMP
  • EMP/EMP resistance i will do in the comming days. I was thinking of lowering t1 to about 140% and have t2 be around 125%

Any comments? Speak now or forever hold your peace.
They will probably be final at EORC! Not much time left...
Why is there a steal ship in Terran, this makes no sense and making it emp also makes no sense.

The cat having zero kill ships also makes them open to incs. The locust being int8 anti de offered them one area of true resistance against solo Terran. Otherwise they are fully open on all fronts.

Agree on the 140%. After reading some of the replies here and seeing cat this round I agree with the thoughts.
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Unread 20 Feb 2017, 07:18   #26
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Re: R71 shipstats

On another note to ppl saying about OPness of emp it's is valid to point out that whilst being overly efficient against others cat emp only provides on which to defend. If attackers break 'cap' and no defence is recieved then cats get raided. They don't get the luxury of attacker value loss as a deterent hence they need to be overly efficient to compete. Cats in big alliances or active gals with helpers will do better than those without. It's a double edged sword imo.
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Unread 20 Feb 2017, 08:23   #27
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Re: R71 shipstats

Yes it is, and there is as a result a fine line between cat being op and being under powered, it is very rare to see cat just right as a result of it. It does make it surprising that this set has an alternate type of ship for ter while cat does not.

The first post said they were your set kaiba, presumably they have altered a fair bit since then?
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Unread 20 Feb 2017, 09:16   #28
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Re: R71 shipstats

Actually no. Phoenix was a norm ship and locust was a norm ship. Apart from that bar the odd tweak they are much what I made. Jintao was looking in on them from the start so most issues were addressed early doors.

At cat free round interests me but I still believe that cloak is so OP that removing emp would make it unstoppable as combined with early int and lazy pod play it's like a plague on the attack page and although people whine about being able to land, not be able to defend would be worse for morale
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Unread 21 Feb 2017, 21:29   #29
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Re: R71 shipstats

Why in God's name does Terran now have something other than Norm/Pod/Struc?

If Ter or Cat players want steal ships, they can covop for them.

It's a heavily biased set of stats as it is, let's not just nerf it even more because you've got mates who want to have their cake and eat it, too.
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Unread 21 Feb 2017, 21:46   #30
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Re: R71 shipstats

If you think it is 'heavily biased' you should say what you think is wrong with it so that it can be considered and corrected. That is the point of these threads.

I personally think zik is a little too weak - their co in particular probably because it does not have a low initiative ship so is totally reliant on its teamup if not targeting those with emp. While this still leaves cat and etd + other zik co it also suffers from being pretty terrible defensively (out of 12 options only 5 look to need to build 5 ships rather than 4 and it is one of the options that does). But I guess it is a general problem with 3 pod classes; almost certain to be one option in each race which is a bit weak.
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Unread 21 Feb 2017, 23:10   #31
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Re: R71 shipstats

Emp eff is not fixed yet, right?
Barghest (etd fr) with emp eff > 200% vs co?
vendor (etd fi) with emp eff < 50%? and being frozen by 160% by scarab on t1?
And widow on > 300% emp eff vs cr? that's biased, right?
Also, locust on 20% emp eff?
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Unread 21 Feb 2017, 23:46   #32
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Re: R71 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by lince View Post
Emp eff is not fixed yet, right?
Barghest (etd fr) with emp eff > 200% vs co?
vendor (etd fi) with emp eff < 50%? and being frozen by 160% by scarab on t1?
And widow on > 300% emp eff vs cr? that's biased, right?
Also, locust on 20% emp eff?
I assume they are mid input, my set was 155-160 t1 across the board. I have mooted the idea of a reduction to 145-150 to Jintao, so maybe that is being done
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Unread 22 Feb 2017, 02:39   #33
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Re: R71 shipstats

3 pod classes makes my stomach churn.

Will agree with booji and my previous comment, Zik should be more 'interesting' in some way.
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Unread 22 Feb 2017, 12:16   #34
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by t3k View Post
Why in God's name does Terran now have something other than Norm/Pod/Struc?
.
Couldn't agree more. The Phoenix should be a kill ship - making it the only CO based kill ship which would be nice imo.
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Unread 22 Feb 2017, 21:57   #35
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by imagination View Post
Couldn't agree more. The Phoenix should be a kill ship - making it the only CO based kill ship which would be nice imo.
Phoenix will become a kill ship again
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Unread 22 Feb 2017, 21:59   #36
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Re: R71 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by lince View Post
Emp eff is not fixed yet, right?
Barghest (etd fr) with emp eff > 200% vs co?
vendor (etd fi) with emp eff < 50%? and being frozen by 160% by scarab on t1?
And widow on > 300% emp eff vs cr? that's biased, right?
Also, locust on 20% emp eff?
I have yet to reset EMP. So yea the calcs will be off atm. I still think 140% is the way to go giving the extremes it has been the past few rounds. Play it a bit safe
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Unread 22 Feb 2017, 22:02   #37
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Re: R71 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
I personally think zik is a little too weak - their co in particular probably because it does not have a low initiative ship so is totally reliant on its teamup if not targeting those with emp. While this still leaves cat and etd + other zik co it also suffers from being pretty terrible defensively (out of 12 options only 5 look to need to build 5 ships rather than 4 and it is one of the options that does).
Zik co actually does fine as an att class since it's up against alot of EMP/Steal ships

It's true their are currently 4 fleet combo's that require 5 ships:
Ter BS, Cat Cr, Zik Co and Etd Fi. It's spread pretty even but it does disadvantage going certain types of fleets.

Since i'm quite perfectionistic i'll see what the possibilities are to make sure every race can do a 4 ship build. No promises
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Unread 22 Feb 2017, 22:59   #38
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Re: R71 shipstats

I did not say that it could not attack, simply that it has fewer options than most others and importantly this is while at the same time as being among the worst defensively. Either on its own would not be a problem it is the combination of the two that makes it suck!

Using a build of Cutlass/Corsair/Thief/Pirate/Marauder with attack fleet value close to 60% against equal value fleets (of same style composition also 60% in their attack ships) zik co roids 7 of 12 but is roided by 11 of 12. A lucky zik can rectify this with steals of course, but not everyone can be lucky.
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Unread 22 Feb 2017, 23:06   #39
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Re: R71 shipstats

emp neeeds fixed
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Unread 23 Feb 2017, 22:36   #40
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Re: R71 shipstats

@Jintao R70

Cat as always overpowered, not sure why you love them so much :) I think we could go with same 5 races and all ships, but need to tweak Cat and Ter or boost other races. It was my third normal round, and Cat pwns all the time :)

Tick 1153 - Top 100:
Cat - 37 players
Ter - 30 players
Xan - 17 players
Zik - 11 players
Etd - 5 players

Cat have 4 ship types which can target 8 ship types.
Ter have 3 ship types which can target 6 ship types.
Xan, Zik and Etd have only 2 ships which can target 4 ship types.

Cat have Co/Bs ships for attack. Beetle+Viper = anti Fi/De, Roach/Tarantula = anti Fr/Cr/De. Building BS ships you cover Zik and Etd races on both Attack/Defend sides. EMP always first. Also need to notice that 10 Cat ships equal ~16 other same type ships(don't look at Xan its ~1:2).

Less EMP more ships fight! :) anyway it's my opinion as Etd :F

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Unread 23 Feb 2017, 22:48   #41
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Re: R71 shipstats

(If anyone else is confused about this: bankeris is referring to the number of ships with T2 in the r70 stats; Cat has 4, Ter 3, while Xan, Zik and Etd only have 2.)
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Unread 23 Feb 2017, 22:55   #42
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Re: R71 shipstats

And in 71 cat has the least.

And emp eff is down to 145/125 I believe
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Unread 23 Feb 2017, 23:05   #43
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Re: R71 shipstats

I think stat makers always take the wrong route with cat, emp is naturally good because it provides a base to work on. It's good if you are going for planet ranks as you can be escorted attack wise and you provide a solid platform to Def into cos you are over 100% efficent. What is forgotten tho is if you don't keep up on value then you are also the best target in an attack. Cats normally get fully claimed because they lack deterrants IE. Value loss.

It's a tricky one to balance but ATM I'm more interested to see how a lack of cloak plays out. It very much intrigues me, hence why I made these.
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Unread 26 Feb 2017, 18:10   #44
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Re: R71 shipstats

Ok EMP is now set: 145% t1, and 125% t2 accross the board

Think they are done now. All that's really left is one last runthrough to see i didn't forget/miss something

So if you wanna give your 2 cents on the stats, now is the time. They'll be declared final when signups open in a week. After that all feedback is useless.
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Unread 26 Feb 2017, 21:00   #45
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Re: R71 shipstats

@Jintao

I cant see ST ships for Etd.
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Unread 26 Feb 2017, 21:11   #46
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Re: R71 shipstats

Yea i know, i forgot to copy the last line of the stats to Cin when he uploaded the set again. Didn't want to bother the very busy guy for a silly ST. But their is a BS ST ship and will be in the final upload for the round

On a side note i finished my final review. Still one thing i'm not so happy about, but not sure i can do much about it.
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Unread 26 Feb 2017, 21:26   #47
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Re: R71 shipstats

So Etd will have 1 Ship more ? Each race has different 13 ships, but only Etd with BS-ST ship will have 14 right?
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Unread 26 Feb 2017, 21:33   #48
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Re: R71 shipstats

correct
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Unread 26 Feb 2017, 22:07   #49
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Re: R71 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
Yea i know, i forgot to copy the last line of the stats to Cin when he uploaded the set again. Didn't want to bother the very busy guy for a silly ST. But their is a BS ST ship and will be in the final upload for the round

On a side note i finished my final review. Still one thing i'm not so happy about, but not sure i can do much about it.
Only thing I'm sceptical about is fr/de is impossible to play without teamups, might be an interesting twist. Haven't had time to run any calcs, so might work out well
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Unread 26 Feb 2017, 22:16   #50
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Re: R71 shipstats

Ter de not hitting fi an oversight? Means solo ter can be stopped with a fi fleet or 2 for 0 loss
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