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Unread 9 Jul 2005, 08:06   #101
kamikaze69
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko
Me? terren?? i just want the game to be fair,....

ziks also be given inits 500000000 and armour 1 and firepower 1 for every ship (and cost a small fortune to make),...
just my thoughts
only a small fortune???
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Unread 9 Jul 2005, 13:10   #102
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Re: new stats

Peg init is only changed if sent is changed to Fi. Stats will be able to be seen soon :-)
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Unread 9 Jul 2005, 16:26   #103
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Re: new stats

Will the beta stats be the finalised stats?
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Unread 9 Jul 2005, 17:05   #104
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Re: new stats

but sents ARE FI I thought.....oh well, I guess I will have to wait and see.....
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Unread 9 Jul 2005, 18:25   #105
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Re: new stats

They're CO afaik. Good luck bringing us the goods Appoco
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 00:19   #106
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Re: new stats

I must have been thinking pulsar. Yeah, it's the pulsar that I was thinking about (they target pegs), and you are saying that you will only make the pegs init lower if there is more of a screen of FI............hmmmm.........
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 00:49   #107
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Re: new stats

Public Beta stats, apart from minor tweaking, should probably be fine to go into the round. This will be the most major "testing" that they've seen, so although beta testing isn't totally like the real round it'll be interesting to see how they fair.
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 04:26   #108
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Re: new stats

Is it intentional that xans have no anti-fr? Or is that a just a typing error on the manual stats page (as last stats I saw had lancers targeting fr)
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 07:42   #109
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Re: new stats

Um is it also intentional that Guardians are EMP ships with init 9??? Cause the viper which is normal has init 6 and also targets frigates.....
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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 16:09   #110
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Re: new stats

Vsharraks are anti-Frigs.

And it is a little odd that Guardians are Init 9....

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Unread 10 Jul 2005, 19:50   #111
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Re: new stats

odd indeed,...
Personaly i think the Terrens are a bit low on the old Anti Fi and co situation
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Unread 11 Jul 2005, 00:20   #112
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Re: new stats

Guardian thing fixed, forgot to update it. I know Terran are "weak" on fi/co, but they're not that bad for most other things. Current stats are now @ http://beta.planetarion.com/stats.pl
and I can't see the whole "no anti fr thing" - Vsh are now anti fr.
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Unread 11 Jul 2005, 01:09   #113
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Re: new stats

Did you boost the Tarant armor as well? I could have sworn the arm/cost was 45 yesterday...

On the other hand this Utah Desert environment and the lack of proper stimulation might be having ill effects on my mental faculties. See why we need to start the round as soon as possible?

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Unread 11 Jul 2005, 01:27   #114
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Re: new stats

Yes, actually I did slightly. well spotted
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Unread 12 Jul 2005, 18:33   #115
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Re: new stats

hmmm just looking at the stats i think xan pods are to strong in comparison to cath and terren

cath and terren are faily balanced one with more armour one with more firepower (damge/cost armour/cost)
but terren has a slightly lower armour, for a massive increase in damage

Terren arm/cost damge/cost
DE pod 46 30 (76)
BS pod 54 31 (85)
Cath
CO pod 40 38 (78)
Crui pod 40 36 (76)
Xan
Fi pod 39 47 (86)
Frig pod 38 50 (88)
(i ignore ziks because they can steal anyone elses podding fleet, so it's all the same to them by the end of the round)

This just looks abit xan domminated to me, for a race whose ships are already supperior for fireing first (with damage)

maybe it's meant to be like that and im just a moaning Terren
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Unread 12 Jul 2005, 18:36   #116
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Re: new stats

heh no i agree, xans have alot of advantages, low cost, good damage,low init,low travel time, and the cloaked. with these new mix and match fleets fi/co frig/des xans will have a big advantage with the cloak, will be a nightmare.
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Unread 12 Jul 2005, 23:49   #117
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Re: new stats

so go on Keg, over protect yourself on the FI, CO, FR, and DE side of things to make sure that no Xan will get thru you...I will just come in with a cath CR fleet and take your roids from you.
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Unread 12 Jul 2005, 23:57   #118
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Re: new stats

Yes, Xan pods are a bit strong - Xan are slightly overpowered. I'm probably going to downgrade them a bit, for the reasons mentioned above
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Unread 13 Jul 2005, 04:48   #119
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Yes, Xan pods are a bit strong - Xan are slightly overpowered. I'm probably going to downgrade them a bit, for the reasons mentioned above
well, dont be too hasty. Remember that all Xan flak ships have paper thin armour - so actually alot of them will die if they are fired upon. A xan might still be able to get roids - but at an incredible cost. Xans tend to flak their ships alot more than other races - as its more important for Xans to kill their enemy BEFORE they fire and thus reduce the amount of ships firing back.

If you want to reduce the armour of a pod - take a look at the Levithian - with 54 compared to the Dagger's 39. That's a quite alot of difference .

I have yet to see a Xan build Daggers only and try to Pod rush someone - however it is far more practical for Terran BA.
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Unread 13 Jul 2005, 09:32   #120
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Re: new stats

You want to downgrade the Terrans even more??? Look at how many people have chosen them for the preview, that in itself is proof enough of how incredibly shit they are.
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Unread 13 Jul 2005, 10:11   #121
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Re: new stats

lots of Xan fi die,.. yes,... but the cost isn't that great. They've done their damage already.
It takes TWICE as many ships you need to deffend agasint a xan, because he's gonna shoot half of them up before they can fire back.
Plus, the cost of the xan ships are very low, and if you compare it to a terren ship.
Plus their advantage of cloack, plus their advantage of having fi and frig pods,.. which i won't begrudge a xan, since that's what being a xan IS,..
I just think with this in consideration, their ships, and pods especially, are to strong!
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Unread 13 Jul 2005, 10:13   #122
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Re: new stats

I am actually quite fed up of the way Terrans have gone now as there to expensive and the ships that are cheap are crap and useless compared to other races :/
I was about to buy some chimera and lynx then and i bought like 10 after saving for a few hours (15 min ticks aswell remember)
I got a few pegs now but its taking ages on 15 mins ticks nevermind 1 hour ticks :/
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Unread 13 Jul 2005, 10:14   #123
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
You want to downgrade the Terrans even more??? Look at how many people have chosen them for the preview, that in itself is proof enough of how incredibly shit they are.
I only chose them coz I am traditional but yes there shit and last round they seemed to be just getting them right.
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Unread 13 Jul 2005, 15:42   #124
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah02
I only chose them coz I am traditional but yes there shit and last round they seemed to be just getting them right.
I've always played Terrans myself (I've only played in two rounds since races were introduced but whatever ) but there's no way I'm going to be playing them in Round 14 if the stats don't change.
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Unread 13 Jul 2005, 15:59   #125
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker
I've always played Terrans myself (I've only played in two rounds since races were introduced but whatever ) but there's no way I'm going to be playing them in Round 14 if the stats don't change.
Ye I have played them since I could (round 11 was a shock to the system going Terran though) And no matter what I always go them but this round makes them into the clown race.
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Unread 13 Jul 2005, 21:37   #126
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Re: new stats

Xan were going to be downgraded slightly, not Terran.

If people look at efficiencies rather than cost, they'll see how hefty Terran's armour is.
One Lynx steals 3.6 roids. 1 Sabre steals 1 roid. 1 Hornet steals 4 roids. Terran are generally armour heavy and damage light, but their Bs fleet isn't bad (have you seen Dragons?!?). If you get your hand on some lancers it becomes much better. However, most of the anti de ships aren't too bad - the drake and pegasus are quite fearsome, two of the strongest terran ships. There's two Co class ships that hit De, but the Phoenix damage isn't too bad - most of the Terran De armours are double the efficiency.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 00:21   #127
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Xan were going to be downgraded slightly, not Terran.

If people look at efficiencies rather than cost, they'll see how hefty Terran's armour is.
One Lynx steals 3.6 roids. 1 Sabre steals 1 roid. 1 Hornet steals 4 roids. Terran are generally armour heavy and damage light, but their Bs fleet isn't bad (have you seen Dragons?!?). If you get your hand on some lancers it becomes much better. However, most of the anti de ships aren't too bad - the drake and pegasus are quite fearsome, two of the strongest terran ships. There's two Co class ships that hit De, but the Phoenix damage isn't too bad - most of the Terran De armours are double the efficiency.
1 sabre steals 1 roid
but 6 sabres steal 6 roids,.. and for 1 lynx > 6 sabres in resources

as for the peg,..
1 peg can kill 46 pulsar,.. and if that's the battle then fine and dandy,.. but it dosn't happen like that.
3 pegs for example,.. against 100 pulsars,.. means 2 pegs are lost, and 46 pulsars are lost,..
Terren takes a huge hit in value,.. xan a minor one.

similar thing with drakes and bombers....
With xans firing first,.. we have to send in TWICE as much, so that we take the hit, and then fire back. Or we run away / pull whenever they send in a force of the same or less resources.

and the sad part is,.. i'd trade in terren drakes for zik clippers anyday for anti frig.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 05:25   #128
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko
1 sabre steals 1 roid
but 6 sabres steal 6 roids,.. and for 1 lynx > 6 sabres in resources
That is consistant with the Race Philosopy of Xan doing more damage than their equilivent Terran ship.

Try comparing their armour. Just a rough calculation, 1 Lynx is worth around 6.6 Sabres. 1 Lynx has around 280 units of Armour. 280/6.6 is err 42? and the Sabre has 35 units of Armour. So in that respect, more Lynx will survive any battle to actually capture roids - or if you look at it the other way around, there will be fewer Xan ships survivng, but those that do cap more, so overall its fair between the pods.

If you only look at one side of the story, then you are missing half the fun.

Quote:
as for the peg,..
I tend to agree with you here - which is why last week i asked Appoco to consider making the initiative of the Pulsar and Pegasus the same - as then it becomes a game of chicken between the two players and that imo is more fun than the Xan walking over the Terran every time.

Though it might be worth noting that the proportion of Pulsars in a FI fleet is fairly low compared to the proportion of Pegasi in a DE fleet.

Quote:
similar thing with drakes and bombers....
With xans firing first,.. we have to send in TWICE as much, so that we take the hit, and then fire back. Or we run away / pull whenever they send in a force of the same or less resources.
That situation should definately remain the way it is - particularly if the Pulsar init equals the Pegasus. There is a big difference between having ships that are good defence for personal and in-gal def (and 1 tick alliance), and having wtfpwn def that has 2 ticks to arrive.

Drake/Bomber should stay.

Quote:
and the sad part is,.. i'd trade in terren drakes for zik clippers anyday for anti frig.
Sure. Steal some - that's what Wyvern are for.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 09:40   #129
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Re: new stats

as a previouse post, i wont begrudge what makes a xan a xan (early firing, cloacked ships, low value ships)

but also as i said in a previouse post

Terren arm/cost damge/cost
DE pod 46 30 (76)
Xan arm/cost damag/cost
Fi pod 39 47 (86)
Frig pod 38 50 (88)

xans have a little less armour,. but ALOT more firepower. Thus i think the DE pod needs better firepower, or the xan armour needs to be lowered more (or firepower,.. xans like their firepower,.. thus their armour should be lower).


Pegs,.. completly agree,.. Appocomaster says he wouldnt unless sentinal was a fi ship to.
Thus we have Harpys, who get blown up by Arrowheads

now not being a xan, i don't know what proportion you give between the two Fi ships,... i can see two Frig stealers targeting FI,.. and one DE ship that destroys them,... If pegs were at the same init as the pulars, this would make them increase their numbers in pulsars i'd imagine, thus lowering the numbers of vsk, which is stolen by Xan and Zik,... catch 22,.. make terren peg better, or xan and ziks stronger through being able to steal more,....
There ya go,.. how's that for looking at both sides and me a terren through and through.


as for stealing a clipper,.. if you'd care to explain HOW i do that,.....
they won't keep them around to deffend agasint any BS or Crui fleet i send in,... there about as hard to get as those lancers i want.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 10:28   #130
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Xan were going to be downgraded slightly, not Terran.

If people look at efficiencies rather than cost, they'll see how hefty Terran's armour is.
One Lynx steals 3.6 roids. 1 Sabre steals 1 roid. 1 Hornet steals 4 roids. Terran are generally armour heavy and damage light, but their Bs fleet isn't bad (have you seen Dragons?!?). If you get your hand on some lancers it becomes much better. However, most of the anti de ships aren't too bad - the drake and pegasus are quite fearsome, two of the strongest terran ships. There's two Co class ships that hit De, but the Phoenix damage isn't too bad - most of the Terran De armours are double the efficiency.
Its all good saying how good the armour is and how well we can get roids but by the time we can actually go out and get roids everyone else has a fairly good amount of ships and roids and racing ahead of Terrans while we struggling to buy the EXPENSIVE pods(or we have to choose to buy pegs so we can actually keep hold of are roids that everyone will be racing for already which are expensive as well). I think what we talked about Appocomaster a few weeks ago I would have to agree on now tbh.


Edit: by tick 120 I can see Terrans will be struggling to keep up already specially with the majority going xan and roiding all the terrans who are struggling to buy expensive ships.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 11:24   #131
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Re: new stats

[Disclaimer: I am in greece, and cba to read all the replies in this thread, hence these are my two uneducated cents, which may be a total repeat of what has been said earlier]

Apologies appocco, but it has to be said. OMG STEAL ON ALL RACES OMG? Yet another desperate attempt to try somethign new, which will just scare away even more of the hardcore players this game is totaly dependant on.

From the looks of it, someone didnt have the brains to remove steal from the combat engine, so we will yet again face a round where theres no doubt what 90% of the top10 will me made out of. Other than that, I can see cath has gotten a decent boost, which was really needed after last rounds slaughter. 70 dmg/cost on the Widow made my head spin :P Emp of cath is nice all over, some obviously better than others heh, while normal ships are yet again useless for anything but flak (and not very good at that either).

Zik will ofcourse win the round again, due to their unbeatable value collecting skills. Not much more to be said there. Theres nothing you can do to balance it. Its either unplayable or unbeatable. The only solution to beat them is to round em all up and slaughter em every night til they all quit. Give them an edge and the battle is mostly lost.

Terran seems totaly lobotomized at first glance. Still the useless dmg/cost, but lower armor. The Widow totaly outmatches terran BS now, with its insane damage, and the ghost has high enough dmg/cost to scare of even the most bold battleship commander. In addition, the destroyer fleet of the terran will be suffering alot from lots of xans going fr fleets with bombers, and the roach ofcourse being a very viable ingal alternative.

Xan has gotten a most sought after armor boost, and will be very dangerous with its low initiative. Xan nolonger seems the everynight chickenrun it used to be. The spider/beetle combination will however be very hard to counter for their fighter fleets. The xan fr/de fleets will be ripping terrans appart.

In conclusion, if I was playing, Id go zik. If they made the stats fair (went back to subverting) Id go cath.

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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 11:29   #132
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Re: new stats

agreed with u TR
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 12:03   #133
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRat
[Disclaimer: I am in greece, and cba to read all the replies in this thread, hence these are my two uneducated cents, which may be a total repeat of what has been said earlier]

Apologies appocco, but it has to be said. OMG STEAL ON ALL RACES OMG? Yet another desperate attempt to try somethign new, which will just scare away even more of the hardcore players this game is totaly dependant on.

From the looks of it, someone didnt have the brains to remove steal from the combat engine, so we will yet again face a round where theres no doubt what 90% of the top10 will me made out of. Other than that, I can see cath has gotten a decent boost, which was really needed after last rounds slaughter. 70 dmg/cost on the Widow made my head spin :P Emp of cath is nice all over, some obviously better than others heh, while normal ships are yet again useless for anything but flak (and not very good at that either).

Zik will ofcourse win the round again, due to their unbeatable value collecting skills. Not much more to be said there. Theres nothing you can do to balance it. Its either unplayable or unbeatable. The only solution to beat them is to round em all up and slaughter em every night til they all quit. Give them an edge and the battle is mostly lost.

Terran seems totaly lobotomized at first glance. Still the useless dmg/cost, but lower armor. The Widow totaly outmatches terran BS now, with its insane damage, and the ghost has high enough dmg/cost to scare of even the most bold battleship commander. In addition, the destroyer fleet of the terran will be suffering alot from lots of xans going fr fleets with bombers, and the roach ofcourse being a very viable ingal alternative.

Xan has gotten a most sought after armor boost, and will be very dangerous with its low initiative. Xan nolonger seems the everynight chickenrun it used to be. The spider/beetle combination will however be very hard to counter for their fighter fleets. The xan fr/de fleets will be ripping terrans appart.

In conclusion, if I was playing, Id go zik. If they made the stats fair (went back to subverting) Id go cath.

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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 12:15   #134
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Re: new stats

Idd it's all wrong. Most of his points on what's the asset and weaknesses of a ship's race and on who owns who are wrong, except for the vague givens.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 12:37   #135
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRat
The Widow totaly outmatches terran BS now, with its insane damage,
A medium sized Terran Battleship fleet, consisting of:
1000 Dragon
250 Wyvern
250 Leviathian
(1312500 Value)

It would take 9800 BW to stun them all (1176000 Value).

Assuming that the attacker would recall at 40% loss (which are high losses and only Benneh would deliberately land on higher);

It would take (to kill/steal 40%):
8000 Ghost (480000 Value)
3500 Buccanneer (1600000)*
1500 Chimera (687500)**

Thus, to eliminate roid loss, you still need alot more value in BW (except for using Buccs, however you do get to steal the BA using them).

*Using Buccs results in loosing 1696 of them [678400 Value lost] - though a gain of 545000 Value from Stolen BA ie net of 133600 net loss.
** Using Chims results in loosing 140 of them [7700 Value lost]

Quote:
and the ghost has high enough dmg/cost to scare of even the most bold battleship commander.
Most races will require the use of two classes of ships to attack with - the most obvious being the Xan FI/CO fleet - though Cath CO will need Spider escorts, CR needing BA escorts etc. Terran BA will require Syren escorts to discourage the use of Ghosts (and BW). This is no more nor no less than all the other races. Whilst i cant say that i am a huge fan of the idea, it does seem to be working better than i had imagined.

Quote:
In addition, the destroyer fleet of the terran will be suffering alot from lots of xans going fr fleets with bombers, and the roach ofcourse being a very viable ingal alternative.
I think Xan FR fleets are over-rated. tbh, i see Xan Frigates as better defence ships than attack. Personally, i'd be more worried at the Pulsar having a superior initiative and quite literally wtfpwning Pegasi - in both attack and defence.

Quote:
The spider/beetle combination will however be very hard to counter for their[Xan] fighter fleets.
I dont think so. Even a relatively small amount of Lancers will strongly discourage the use of Cath Corvettes to attack with, and it doesnt take much in the way of FI to breach EMP defence due to the quirkiness of the Combat engine regarding EMP on Pods etc.

Quote:
In conclusion, if I was playing, Id go zik. If they made the stats fair (went back to subverting) Id go cath.

-TheRat
That doesnt surprise me overly. I've always thought of you as a highly offensely orientated player regardless - as most 'top' players tend to be.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 12:43   #136
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
I haven't read this post, but I think it's wrong.
I read the first sentence after the disclaimer and immediately rolled my eyes. I wasnt going to reply but then i figured i should just incase people started refering to that post to justify their already estabilished opinion that isnt going to change anyway regardless of argument.

But i tried to be objective in my reply .
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 12:46   #137
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Re: new stats

clearly wrather at home or in Super McDonalds, Therat is still a newb.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 13:14   #138
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Re: new stats

Without having played the beta, I think it's impossible for anyone to make a reasoned judgement.

There's going to be a lot more skill needed from players, since you can't just build all the ships of one class and expect to win. Often you need two different classes to cancel out certain ships, which makes the game a lot more intriguing, especially for DCs. No doubt certain combinations will pop up (FR/DE for Xan, etc) - but the people who go for eclectic combinations and distorters will do very well by confusing DCs.

At the moment, I would make these changes:

Pulsar/Pegasus initiative to be equal.
Cutlass made a touch more powerful.
Sabre damage to be toned down a touch.

I'd also nerf Structure Killers back to 5/5 damage/armour efficiencies, but that's just me.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 14:37   #139
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Re: new stats

your conclusions are good Newbie. I am playing the beta atm, and I have to admit that without the knowledge I have gained in 200 ticks, I would say that Xan are overpowered and cath are still weak.

I looked through that and went Cath in the beta, now 200 ticks in and I think you will find that there will be a Cath in the number 1 spot atm in the universe, just goes to show how good caths stats are this round.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 14:39   #140
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball

Pulsar/Pegasus initiative to be equal.
Cutlass made a touch more powerful.
Sabre damage to be toned down a touch.

I'd also nerf Structure Killers back to 5/5 damage/armour efficiencies, but that's just me.

I'd like pegs to be more usefull,.. but with them hitting pulsars at the same time,.. will this mean a shift for xans towards building more of them and less Vsk??

anything to make ziks better im against

and i think both sabre and dagger damage should come down,.. but if it had to be one i'd say dagger, and raise the caths hornet
make it fairer all around
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 15:09   #141
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
A medium sized Terran Battleship fleet, consisting of:
1000 Dragon
250 Wyvern
250 Leviathian
(1312500 Value)

It would take 9800 BW to stun them all (1176000 Value).
With the current game mechanics you can never design you fleet to be totaly immune to a class, regardless of your position in the universe. Hence it makes sense to cover your ass halfway, where it is most costeffective. The Black Widow is very cost effective. Cath is a very offensive race, and Ive experienced its ups and downs to the ultimate during R12. When I designed my defense, I followed the theory that I was to discorage small fleets, and help defend against larger fleets. The black widow is an excellent start in defense against large fleets.

It is a proven fact that noone will do exceptionally well in this game without a very strong alliance backing him/her up. Hence I always asume that in defence you will only do part of the job yourself.

Quote:
Assuming that the attacker would recall at 40% loss (which are high losses and only Benneh would deliberately land on higher);

It would take (to kill/steal 40%):
8000 Ghost (480000 Value)
3500 Buccanneer (1600000)*
1500 Chimera (687500)**
Again, you asume the planet is flying solo.

Quote:
I think Xan FR fleets are over-rated. tbh, i see Xan Frigates as better defence ships than attack. Personally, i'd be more worried at the Pulsar having a superior initiative and quite literally wtfpwning Pegasi - in both attack and defence.
In my opinion, xan FR seems to be hugely underestimate til they start causing havoc mid to late round. This ofcourse depends on the stats, but I dont see any reason why xan fr isnt viable this round. I hadnt noticed the pulsar init (due to sitting in greece on inet cafe's ), but this does indeed seem to be somewhat a deathsentance to terran de, asuming xan numbers will be high.

Quote:
I dont think so. Even a relatively small amount of Lancers will strongly discourage the use of Cath Corvettes to attack with, and it doesnt take much in the way of FI to breach EMP defence due to the quirkiness of the Combat engine regarding EMP on Pods etc.
My apologies for being unclear, I never intended to suggest it as an offensive combination, rather a defensive one. Being low eta and emp, its an excellent defense against xan fi fleets, which proved itself a very dangerous measure of large scale attack last round.

Quote:
That doesnt surprise me overly. I've always thought of you as a highly offensely orientated player regardless - as most 'top' players tend to be.
Spot on

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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 15:33   #142
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko
I'd like pegs to be more usefull,.. but with them hitting pulsars at the same time,.. will this mean a shift for xans towards building more of them and less Vsk??
Looking basically at the stats, xans do look to be quite superior to the other races, in that they can effectively have nearly 0 loss defence against anything. Infact, only cath CR are capable of getting through without suffering losses against a xan.

However, having considered this more deeply, many xans (outside the HUGE ones) are going to have a hard time covering against everything. A lot is going to have to be spent on pulsars and vsharraks in order to fully deter terrans and ziks DE/FR respectively. In this case, then the xans cannot afford much to spend on killing other stuff; perhaps terrans can then flak through with their BS, or caths can have fun with their FI/CO.

And with them often requiring large amounts of ships to get through unscathed due to their low armour (eg. many comboes include the majority of ships from 2 classes; FI/CO or FR/DE)

Infact, I would say that cath are looking fine this round. They're still going to have trouble against terran BS, even with ubered up widow/toned down BS pod, but with the ghost being massively superior to the old peacekeeper, anti BS defence will be easier, and with a plentiful number of xans, the CR fleet will probably be more effective...
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 15:45   #143
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Infact, I would say that cath are looking fine this round. They're still going to have trouble against terran BS, even with ubered up widow/toned down BS pod, but with the ghost being massively superior to the old peacekeeper, anti BS defence will be easier, and with a plentiful number of xans, the CR fleet will probably be more effective...
Again we will see Ghosts dominate the round (Gate, you won't understand this, but never mind)

Cath CR fleet will be good this round, since it can get through on the two most common races of next round (Xan/Zik) with no losses. Meanwhile, Terran Dragons will suffer the same fate as Peacekeepers last round, imo. Why?

Peacekeepers were a very good ship, but few Xans ever had enough of them because their numbers were constantly whittled down by DCs sending them against too many Dragons. With the amount of anti-BS in the universe being very high (the main roiding fleet for 2 races), there will be fewer Dragons which survive to threaten Cath.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 15:52   #144
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamikaze69
your conclusions are good Newbie. I am playing the beta atm, and I have to admit that without the knowledge I have gained in 200 ticks, I would say that Xan are overpowered and cath are still weak.

I looked through that and went Cath in the beta, now 200 ticks in and I think you will find that there will be a Cath in the number 1 spot atm in the universe, just goes to show how good caths stats are this round.

Tales of the Wolf was cath and he was #1 last round to begin with. That shows you how good cath stats are.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 16:49   #145
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Re: new stats

and personaly i think most terrens will favour building wyverns to dragons,..
simple maths,..
with less people being Cath, and it being only 1 roiding fleet out of 6,.. there's less chance for incomming from it,.. while you can send out your wyvern to steal DE for your fleet,..
Not saying terrens wont build ANY dragons,.. but i think there wont be as favoured as last round.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 16:59   #146
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Re: new stats

Rocko: fine by me!


Cath reporting in...
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 20:46   #147
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Re: new stats

It'll be interesting to see how steal ships perform this round.

The fact that you can't defend with them out of galaxy will seriously dent their effectiveness. I can't speak for the rest of you but the Ziks in my alliance got a significant number of their stolen ships from alliance defence, maybe as much as 50%. Of course Ziks can still defend against CR and BS out of galaxy but last round they could defend against any ship class out of galaxy.
Also zero loss defence is less prevalent now. This will make the value gains that stealers experience much less pronounced.

Personally I think that stealers will have less of an impact on R14 than they did in R13, even though all races are now able to steal. Having said that I think that Ziks will still be the dominant race.
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Unread 14 Jul 2005, 23:58   #148
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Re: new stats

WRT the Peg / Pulsar thing, the Peg is actually quite strong. It's one of Terran's strongest ships, and if the init were changed to 4, it'd probably be moved down to be similar to pulsar's init. It could be made slightly stronger, but it'll get silly if it's too much stronger on init 5.

The Cutlass could probably be upgraded a bit, as the vsh does sort of own it :-).
I'm more likely to up costs / drop armour more than damage for Xan - it's keeping in character.
Say: Dagger to 4 armour, Sabre to 30/42 or so.
Lynx to 300/200 damage, Lev to 320 damage.
Looking at pod damage, Zik pod damage could be raised to 70 + 220 respectively.
Cutlass to say 46 armour.

Zik were obviously too overpowered last round, but as mentioned above steal ships are harder to use for out of galaxy defence and mainly not being 0 loss and this makes them far less effecitve. They still can defend with the alliance with 5/6 ships, even though only 2 of them are steal ships, so they're not awful with defence.
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 03:01   #149
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Re: new stats

I'll address my thoughts on these points together;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
A lot is going to have to be spent on pulsars and vsharraks in order to fully deter terrans and ziks DE/FR respectively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
The Cutlass could probably be upgraded a bit, as the vsh does sort of own it :-).
I think that the biggest threats to Xans are Cath CR (obviously) - but also Zik FR fleets. Yes - the FR Fleet. I think that the numbers of Xan Corvettes that are around will mean that Ziks will quite quickly cap alot of Arrowheads and Sentinels. Once the Zik has picked up Sents, then they will kill of Vsh before they can fire, and thus more Theives will survive to cap even more CO etc. I think its going to be a bit like Ziks stealing TBT last round, but the frequency of it occuring is much greater and the implications are even greater still.

I worry about Zik FR fleets to the extent that i think their armour should be reduced so less survive to steal Sents. Late round, Ziks will (again) be completely untouchable against Xan FI fleets due to stolen Sents, and even before then i think Ziks will be feeding off every small to medium Xan in the universe (like me ).

Increasing the power of the Cutlass, too, wouldnt help this situation much at all.

I think it might be needing a look at .

Quote:
In this case, then the xans cannot afford much to spend on killing other stuff; perhaps terrans can then flak through with their BS, or caths can have fun with their FI/CO.
I found last round it didnt take much in the way of Lancers to discourage Corvette attacks - 500 Lancers (later 1000) built in a one-off occasion stopped all CO attacks on me for the whole round. I think it will be a similar story (as Caths look for softer targets).

Quote:
Infact, I would say that cath are looking fine this round. They're still going to have trouble against terran BS, even with ubered up widow/toned down BS pod, but with the ghost being massively superior to the old peacekeeper, anti BS defence will be easier, and with a plentiful number of xans, the CR fleet will probably be more effective...
I have to agree. I'm starting to have doubts about going Xan .
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Unread 15 Jul 2005, 04:49   #150
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Re: new stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Again we will see Ghosts dominate the round (Gate, you won't understand this, but never mind)
Its about time though! . The last time was R3, which was 12 or 13 rounds ago - that's a long time between drinks .
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