Sharing Race Abilities

[Appocomaster]

I know that a lot of people disagree with this. Quite a few seem to be ziks. The main point is, either people say "the races are all the same", or "only zik should have steal".

Giving each race a steal ship (and to a lesser extent adding an EMP ship) actually gives the races more variety, e.g. stealing another ship allows you to gain another attacking option. As only the Zikonian race can steal all the ships, and (for example with my stats) all races but zik can only steal one ship class (generally with only 3-4 ships extra to steal). Giving all the races steal arguably makes them more varied for attack and defence, while keeping the races different.

It does mean Zik, and maybe Cath, loose their monopoly on their "abilities". However, they do keep their abilities and Zik especially are the only race able to use it to their full extent. Also, if all races have steal to some degree, it might actually spread the desire to have steal after this round to another race. It doesn't "balance" it as effectively as making steal cost something, but if it costs to steal, then stats have to be rethought and combat has to be changed, and we can't do that for this round.
Also, as Jester likes saying, stealing is fun :-)

[Rocko]

Ok,...
When i joined in round 3,. there was only ONE race,....
things change, stats change,... PA has always changed stats to see if something works, and kept on changing it in the ever attempt to make somthing perfect, which will never happen unless only ONE person plays PA, and then he'll mona,.........

As you have stealing right now, i completly agree,.. every race has one stealing ship, which can steal one ship type,.. and no more,...
for those for some reason not in the know,.. terren, cath and xan stealing ships, dont steal any ships that ziks can steal,. and so terrens for example can only steal DE,.. and no more
THIS works well in my opinion, because the other three races DON't turn into ziks, because we cant steal every ship in the game.
If all four races had the same ships, with the same advantages, then there would be a problem because u'd just have 1 race at the end of the day, with four names.
By still holding to their main criteria (Terrens large on Armour, caths 1-2 inti EMP, xans high on Fire power with quick inits, ziks mostly steal every ship), your leaving plenty of scope for the round to go.
And so what if it ends up going tits up, last round did if you were cath, or terren to a degree. Maybe this round you'll only see caths and terrens in the top 100, it's part of PA.
Let us moan about things not being quite right, because for gods sake don't EVER make things perfect, because you'll never get Anyone playing the next round. and u'd be out of a job !!

So anyway,... sure, let people moan and suggest, and advise,... and as you've done in the "statagy forum", make minour changes, but let it play out for half-a whole round before you start asking wether it works or not, because people will soon tell you. otherwize it'll be people judging before it's even tried.
Bring it on!!! that's what i say

[Chaos]

I think this belongs in "Planetarion Suggestions"

[Phil^]

imo it degrades the race differences by giving all races a ship of each type, rather then adds to the variety

If you want to add variety, give non-zik ships subvert, rather then steal and leave steal as a purely-zik option

[Neferti]

Originally Posted by Chaos

I think this belongs in "Planetarion Suggestions"

Not really, as I believe this is a feature that will now definitely be in the game, and therefore should be more widely discussed... it was a suggestion, a long time ago.

[bwtmc]

I'm certain that all races should have the capability of Stealing, it really does add something to the game, especially when things get more stagnant towards the latter third or so of the round. To have more attacking options and to have more options when tailoring your fleet really is nice.

I can't particularly say I agree that Emp/Cloaking/HeavyArmour ships shared across the races will make the game more interesting or playable, and to a point, I think it does serve a purpose to separate them so that people actually do team up on attacks. I'm not overly fussed about it, but I feel a bit like sharing those race characteristics doesn't really achieve anything brilliant for the players, yet it makes the game somewhat less accessible (when you're trying to get to grips with the stats).

The loss of identity of the races seems too unnecessary for me. As far as i'm aware the EMP ships (of that race) won't directly complement Stealers/Roiding class ships in attacking options and that doesn't really translate the point of Cathaar across to other races. With Stealers you're able to build up fake fleets, profit from defences and tailor your fleet with more depth than previously possible; translating Cathaar across doesn't really achieve anything in my eyes, except complication. Cloaked ships, are exactly the same.

No new player can be expected to plough through Fleet Scans looking for the Cloaked ships of each race, including relevant steals, it'd be a nightmare for players developing their addiction..!

[Makhil]

i like the idea but i'm worried about more cheating (farming) and more bashing

[wakey]

Originally Posted by bwtmc

I'm certain that all races should have the capability of Stealing, it really does add something to the game, especially when things get more stagnant towards the latter third or so of the round. To have more attacking options and to have more options when tailoring your fleet really is nice.

I can't particularly say I agree that Emp/Cloaking/HeavyArmour ships shared across the races will make the game more interesting or playable, and to a point, I think it does serve a purpose to separate them so that people actually do team up on attacks. I'm not overly fussed about it, but I feel a bit like sharing those race characteristics doesn't really achieve anything brilliant for the players, yet it makes the game somewhat less accessible (when you're trying to get to grips with the stats).

The loss of identity of the races seems too unnecessary for me. As far as i'm aware the EMP ships (of that race) won't directly complement Stealers/Roiding class ships in attacking options and that doesn't really translate the point of Cathaar across to other races. With Stealers you're able to build up fake fleets, profit from defences and tailor your fleet with more depth than previously possible; translating Cathaar across doesn't really achieve anything in my eyes, except complication. Cloaked ships, are exactly the same.

No new player can be expected to plough through Fleet Scans looking for the Cloaked ships of each race, including relevant steals, it'd be a nightmare for players developing their addiction..!

So what your saying is everyone having stealing ships is a must but every race shouldnt have cloaked/emp ships. What do you think you acheive by giving everyone stealers, you give everyone the ability to get ships of these types

[bwtmc]

Yes

Yes. I think you'll agree Zik's hardly became Cathaars Ters or Xans by the end of R13 so that's hardly an issue unless we let Stealing get too out of control - And the idea this round is to very much balance stealing and the benefits of it.

[bwtmc]

I suppose the only comfort we have Makhil is that most players who'd try things like that would choose Zik whatever happens between now and the end of the month. And so any other changes won't really come into effect with suspect players :\

[JimyT]

I havent actually really had the time to sit down and properly look over the new stats that were put up by appocomaster so i cant say how far i agree with him. But on the idea in general, i think its good. When i first played PA (RD 2), i also knew only one race but the game grew and grew and everyone always complains at first and then they're like wow this is great. I like it anyways.

[noah02]

I don't want perfection because once you have perfection whats left to do?
Stats will be changed every round for as long as PA runs and they will never be perfect because I dont think it could ever happen and I hope it never does.
Appocomaster I did not like the idea to begin with but tbh **** it we don't know unless we try just like everything else in every other round we play there is always something we don't like its called being a paying customer we won't be happy until its free (and then we would still moan about something hehe)

[Kargool]

I think with adding steal ships to all races we are looking at several problems. We get more farm situations, and we can also get alot more "dodgy" attacks between people. (I was on more than one occation offered to swap roid for BS when I was terran last round) I support the idea about the other races steal ships being subvert only, since Appocomaster clearly doesnt care about what I mean about adding stealships.

I do think that this makes is more difficult for new players to play the game, and with further difficulting the stats we only stand to alienate the new players (with the exceptions perhaps of players that actually join mIRC and asks for help/joins an alliance.

The stats from round 13 worked very well, (apart from zik owning to much and cat being viped off the charts) The best way to maintain a stable Planetarion without to much changes is to retain thoose stats with tweaking them some in more favor of cath and in disfavor of the Ziks. But then again, that would actually ask for modesty and not changing the game totally, a sad sad habit that the PA creators seem to have.

[barney]

Originally Posted by Kargool

The stats from round 13 worked very well, (apart from zik owning to much and cat being viped off the charts) The best way to maintain a stable Planetarion without to much changes is to retain thoose stats with tweaking them some in more favor of cath and in disfavor of the Ziks. But then again, that would actually ask for modesty and not changing the game totally, a sad sad habit that the PA creators seem to have.

agreed 100%, something about unbroken things being fixed springs to mind tbh. weakening zik and maybe strenghening cath rather than this complete overhaul which imo only leads to convergance of the races

[Appocomaster]

Changes for Terran/ Cath / Xan last round to this round (targetting etc)
Harpy droped 1 init, 1 damage, and 1k resources
Phoenix target changed from Corvette to Destroyer, slight relative increase in damage and drop in armour.
Gryphon target changed from Destroyer to Corvette. Dropped 1 init, slightly increased damage.
Drake changed to De class (target, Fr, stays the same).
....
and so on. There's a few target changes and init changes, but for the 3 races there's a similarity. Because I brought in steal I completely rejigged Zik so that there were no stealing chains, and to make all Steal ships apart from the Bucanneer a higher class, and all but the Buccaneer and the Rogue an ETA higher to slow down stealing.

[bwtmc]

If the threat of farming and cheating is enough of a problem to ditch a stealing class in each race, despite the new things it offers the game. Surely, you couldn't be at all happy that one race still would have ~5 stealing classes. It seems so inconsistent, if we accept stealing as an attack option in the game, then I see no good reason why it shouldn't be offered across the races (classes which do not directly assist the main roiding fleet of the mentioned race).

The whole idea is, you roid with the primary fleet and gradually amass a secondary fleet (through stealing) as the game goes on, giving you a second option later in the game. One of the big problems PA's had is that the last weeks of a ten week round slow down so much, many in the community tire of the game and lose interest. Stealing does allow those players to fake attack and employ unlikely attack options, giving something to the game at the end and making it far more playable.

I don't think that has to require a full re-do of the stats, and i'd probably favour the old stats as a basis for the new round. It's so damn difficult to assess whether new stats are balanced when testing is so simplified - not that it can be made more realistic :\

Edit:

Can't complain about that Appoco, sounds good so far.

[Kargool]

You guys had an unique chance to get a extremly well balanced round by changing the ziks just alittle, and the caths just a little, instead you create a new kind of stats, and dont you DARE to tell me that the new stats look alot like the old ones. Because you know that with adding the stealers you WILL get a totally different type of game again Appocomaster. I am willing to bet that this will lead to more fleetfarming, more abuse, and more problems for the game. You could have done it differently with adding a CO to Cath, removing the ugly bugly pirates targeting BS and prolly get a much more well balanced round. Pirates gave Ziks a new and extremly tough to beat roidship type, and with another Co caths could have a semi decent two types of roiding classes.

[Rocko]

farming,... each of the 3 races can only steal 1 type of ship,.. and no more,.. so i cant see how it's lickly to result in ship farming for people playing these races when ziks still hold the advantage on stealing. you can't say that u'll have ship farming if those races steal a little bit, but not if ziks can steal everything.

i think it's worth a try. Granted it will make it harder to decide what's comming at you. Make it hard to decide what to send. Alot of BC's are going to be scratching their head's for a little while trying to go through the lickly combinations, but that's what the game is about.
If it dont work, then we'll only know when we're most of the way through the round,.. and by then we'll be waiting on next round
last rounds stats didint work. people moaned. same thing will happen this round if they dont work,.. if they do work, it'll be the first time for it

lets give it a go,.. worst that will happen is one race ends up dominatiing, 1 ends up being pants, and the other two dont do so gud either,.. but we had that already.

[noah02]

Originally Posted by Rocko

lets give it a go,.. worst that will happen is one race ends up dominatiing, 1 ends up being pants, and the other two dont do so gud either,.. but we had that already.

Dunno you know as much as Zik dominated its amazing how pants Xan can be but still be brilliant and high up there

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by Rocko

lets give it a go,.. worst that will happen is one race ends up dominatiing, 1 ends up being pants, and the other two dont do so gud either,.. but we had that already.

Perhaps you are willing to accept just another shitty round of PA once again but I wont. I have had it up to my ears with the PA -Crew changing things around all the time.

Btw, I also noticed that Terrans will loose the nixes targeting CO. Good luck to everyone wanting to be terran next round

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Phil^

imo it degrades the race differences by giving all races a ship of each type, rather then adds to the variety

If you want to add variety, give non-zik ships subvert, rather then steal and leave steal as a purely-zik option

You obviously haven't played stealing. I don't see any reason to ever play PA without stealing as long as one race has proper stealing. Not because it's inherently overpowered (though it probably is), but because it's fun in a way that 'launch, jgp, recall/land, rince/repeat' can't match in the long run.

[noah02]

Originally Posted by Kargool

Btw, I also noticed that Terrans will loose the nixes targeting CO. Good luck to everyone wanting to be terran next round

/me looks worried

[hylands]

i think kargool is right last round stats were very good just zik overpowered and cath was too weak but slowing the zik race only makes them less good and interresting to play with. the only races most people will play with are xan and cath as they have a huge advantage against the other races. u made stealing a less good point for choosing zik and u made them terrribly slow how could you that is killing the race without making it at least a bit competitive. now u will have to be a nutter will you take zik as your race seen as they have a fleet that get's blown apart before it can do anything and they can't defend before they can build cr and bs. and that will tkae long seen as they need to research other things too. further more i think the adding of just a cat Co would have made it right. now i change stats in soemthing i might not want to play just like many others with me. these stats make the races unbalanced:
zik: doomed seen as they have a too slow and aint got right ships for right target
xan: hugely overpowerred they shoot too fast en have to cheap ships
cath: these are quite nice now seen as they can just make a co fleet that hurts the enemy really badly.
terran: where is the point to start. they lost all anti co defence have crap attack force seen as they also are too slow and expensive.

if anyone thinks he must have been zik theyre right i was and proud of it. and if my spelling aint right tell me what's wrong and i will change it for now i think this round will SUCK!!! and yes i aint english i am dutch.

[hylands]

btw new players are now in a big problem when they want to learn the game seen as the stats are too complicated for new people to choose a race.

[Kargool]

I agree with everything hylands say in his thread.
We have an unique chance of having a very well balanced round next round but the PA crew seems obsessed with changing everything around. I still fail to see the logic in what the new stats will bring. They say, its more fun??? Well, tell that to the newbie getting bashed and he cant fleetscan his attacker and have NFI whats incoming because everyone has stealers and the variety of multiple fleet types attacks improves. Having races with only one steal type ship isnt much better. PA crew says that they have removed the steal chains. What good will the extra ships then be? Only good use is as flak, or as value boosters..

[Jester]

Originally Posted by hylands

btw new players are now in a big problem when they want to learn the game seen as the stats are too complicated for new people to choose a race.

In my opinion this highlights one of the major flaws of having the biggest choice in the game fall before the game even begins.

[hylands]

seen as the races had specific uses and had things they were good at nwo only the technical advantages stay seen as ship specials are so wide spread that every newbie will get bashed and will be goen before they even pay a dime is that what u wnat cause nwo newbies can't choose out of stats those are allmost written in chinese for the english reading people. and the advantage zik once had is taken away form them

[Rocko]

Originally Posted by Kargool

I agree with everything hylands say in his thread.
Having races with only one steal type ship isnt much better. PA crew says that they have removed the steal chains. What good will the extra ships then be? Only good use is as flak, or as value boosters..

Well they're stealing ships that go with your attacking fleet, so yes, extra flack. Extra deffence options. After a month the game will be difficult to play, with people having stolen a variety of ships, but at least you know for certain what ship Type the race will have stolen.

Ziks look weak, but once they have stolen a few ships from deffending in gal/alliance then they'll start growing rapidly again.
Initially their attack option is limited, but after 2 weeks they'll be starting to get their footing,. after 1 month they'll be pulling level.

Terrens aint that bad to play, though at the mo, i'd pick xan anyday. since i think without having Crui or BS, their ships are to quick, and to varried. With them beign cloakced, your looking at having Seven types of Frig and De ships comming at you, covering roids, structure, and everything except frigs, and since there are no frig anti frig/de, then that dosnt matter anyway.

With the stealing option, it counters to some degree the ziks growing to powerfull and large with their masses of different ships and ship types.

Originally Posted by hylands

seen as the races had specific uses and had things they were good at nwo only the technical advantages stay seen as ship specials are so wide spread that every newbie will get bashed and will be goen before they even pay a dime is that what u wnat cause nwo newbies can't choose out of stats those are allmost written in chinese for the english reading people. and the advantage zik once had is taken away form them

I've helped a lot of people start in PA, and i know very few who chose a race by the stats...

maybe its just me...

[Smudge]

Terran = Big Bad Battleships
Cath = EMP Ships
Xan = Good in large numbers
Zik = Stealing people

Why dont people just look at the arguements then remember that indeed the Stats do need changing but not so far as to go to give everyone a Zik type ship. Whilst there at it, give everyone a decent Battleship, an EMP ship and a decent high numbered fighter.

Oh wait, they tried that in the Beta and it sucked. Why not look at the REAL problems with PA, and not the things which are OK at the moment

edit : If anyone wants those stats, feel free to PM me on IRC, in #planetarion at the moment and before anyone says that I cant, I can and if you want to say that I cant, go talk to APA as they leaked them

[Kargool]

I dont see the big problem with the so called "leak" of stats since there is atleast 3-4 different types of beta stats.

[Appocomaster]

Indeed, most / all the stats I made for beta are on Strategy Discussion.
Smudge, as you never were beta testing, I don't see how you know what happened in there? They didn't flop, and a lot of people did enjoy them. For the initial beta testing, most people moaning about stats were in #planetarion, not #beta.

[Makhil]

the real problem for the 3 races and their single steal ship will be : how to steal something...
A xan needs to send a FR fleet on a target to steal Fi... only the xan will keep their FI at home to def against a FR attack, but Xan attacking Xan is pretty tough... unless you bash a low score.
Then you can think of stealing ships by defending, there again who will attack with FI ships ? Xans... but will they land if there is def ??? probably not... unless they're in fact a farm fleet (oh sorry i forgot to recall and i lost all my VSH).
Anyway is it worth building Xan stealing ship if it is just to trade it for a xan FI ? Isn't it better to build the xan FI in the first place ?

[Flying Monkey]

I think the non zik races should have 1 stealing ship each, simply because stealing ships is fun and afterall thats what the game should be about. Some people might say if you want to steal ships, go zik but I think zik looks like a hard race to play, especially for new players and this way everyone gets to have fun stealing ships.

In my opinion it doesn't take anything away from the zik race as they are still the only race that can steal other classes of roiders, the other races just add ships to their smaller class roid fleet which is a good thing. Stealing does do more than just provide flack for those races too. I've played terran all through the betas and they can be easy for caths to hit with co (terran always seem to get xan bashed) but a terran who steals lancers will have a good de fleet and also be harder for caths to hit.

I don't think every race should be able to build an emp or cloaked ship though as it was tried in the betas and didn't really add much to the fun of the game.

[Kargool]

Flying Monkey, for being able to actually steal a ships you have to make sure it survives to actually steal something, with the new stats the actually stealing will be very hard as Makhil pointed out. So where is the fun in having useless stealships?

[Flying Monkey]

Yes true its going to be hard to steal other ships, most people will probably just run them, but over the course of a round it will happen. I don't think its meant to be easy and it wouldn't be a good thing for the other races to steal loads of ships, just enough to provide a few more attack or defense options.

Also with these stats, I think more people will send 2 class roiding fleets eg. a terran attacking a xan might send cr and bs, meaning ziks could send rogues to steal the cr. People do land on def, especially if there's a lot of xp and roids involved.

[barney]

Originally Posted by Flying Monkey

I think the non zik races should have 1 stealing ship each, simply because stealing ships is fun and afterall thats what the game should be about. Some people might say if you want to steal ships, go zik

if you want to steal ships, go zik ??? you seriously dont want to go zik because it is HARD!!! Cath last round from what i hear was hard, but i know ppl who enjoyed it (and some who didnt :P).

to me it is really simple ziks steel xan/cath/ter DO NOT STEEL. what we are making is some kind of inbred race system, which removes the individual benefits/disadvantages/nuonces which gave each race charachter and led to some ppl being dedicated to a race such as myself with xan.

where did this idea about changing the stats come from anyway ffs all they needed was a little tweaking, now we have to go thru the hard process of playing rounds to get the stats right again to get back to the point where we were after last round (no the stats wll surely not be THIS good after one round of this new system).

/me is wondering if its really worth playing next round tbh :/

[Kargool]

I really dont think that the stealers for all races is worth it. But who am I to argue the intelligence of the PA - Crew, Im just a player.

[noah02]

Originally Posted by Kargool

I really dont think that the stealers for all races is worth it. But who am I to argue the intelligence of the PA - Crew, Im just a PAYING CUSTOMER.

Fixed

[Walldo]

To be Honest, in playing the beta, the stats are very nice. I would wanna see them in the real round. For those other, please try public beta before you start yelling around here. It could be a very nice round with these stats. Allthough I liked the other stats better.

[hylands]

i must agree i pay for a game then i want it to be fun but now they just try to shut your mouth if you say anything in #planetarion about them( points at stats) well i think there should be a voting or at least an open beta for more then 4 users from 1 alliance now as i had exams i wasn't on at that time and now i get told you aint in beta's so u got nothing to say. well i think the PA-team is making a huge mistake by thinking people didn't like stats form last round they were good only zik needed a bit downgrading and cat a bit upgrading now we have new stats that make more bugs more problems and creates all these stupid discussions. i think and i aint the only one we jsut need to tweak the old ones then we woudl have a very good and fun game now everybody has problems with the strong and weak points of races seen as most of them didn't play with new stats making it hard for a player who plays for a second or even more rounds to say whitch race is good to choose and to have fun with. now u got 2 races who are superb and the other 2 will be wiped out before they are able to grow. seen as u get bashed being a zik (ships to slow!!!!) and ter has same problem.
why on earth did they think these stats are good ouch! make it a preround to see and test the stats and not soem closed beta with a few people out of the 4500 who play this game and msot of them even pay.

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by hylands

i must agree i pay for a game then i want it to be fun but now they just try to shut your mouth if you say anything in #planetarion about them( points at stats)

So, this is why I've publicly released stats on the SD forums here two weeks ago (although someone just informed me the old links don't work, so I'll try and fix them). I've always been prepared to talk to people about them, but as has been pointed out, simple moaning without any justification isn't going to get any point anywhere. Most of the people complaining haven't played any beta tests with steal, and I'm far more inclined to listen to people who play with the stats and then make suggestions.

well i think there should be a voting or at least an open beta for more then 4 users from 1 alliance now as i had exams i wasn't on at that time and now i get told you aint in beta's so u got nothing to say.

how about those that understand stats? most people would prefer to vote for "their race" having the best stats, or not happily balance stats. Public betas are due to start within the week, and all alliances were allowed at least 4 representatives.

well i think the PA-team is making a huge mistake by thinking people didn't like stats form last round they were good only zik needed a bit downgrading and cat a bit upgrading now we have new stats that make more bugs more problems and creates all these stupid discussions. i think and i aint the only one we jsut need to tweak the old ones then we woudl have a very good and fun game now everybody has problems with the strong and weak points of races seen as most of them didn't play with new stats making it hard for a player who plays for a second or even more rounds to say whitch race is good to choose and to have fun with.

how do you "tweak"? Some people do want to tweak, but few actually suggest how to go about doing this. "Improve Cath Co - make the Viper Co and just downgrade Zik" is the general sort of comment. How do you downgrade a whole race? Firstly, making all steal ships 0 loss (which is what was done to some extent in the speedround) but then what? In-game statistics are a dynamical system. When you change some bits, it affects all of them. The most humorous reply to "making steal balanced" is to make it cost ships. But that kills Zik completely - stats need a whole rewrite, as then you have to steal tactically. Also the "steal/die" ratio (i.e. ratio of cost of stolen ships to cost of your own ships) changes how easy Zik should be to play. This way, the stealing does help to balance, to a small extent, Ziks who are going to be stealing a lot more. It means people will be slightly less "launch, scan, recall" - they'll look for ships to steal too, if they can. Show me a Terran who doesn't want Lancers, if for no other reason than to hit other Terrans (Lancer vs Phoenix), and to defend against those irritating Cathaar Co attacks .

now u got 2 races who are superb and the other 2 will be wiped out before they are able to grow. seen as u get bashed being a zik (ships to slow!!!!) and ter has same problem.

I think Flying Monkey can vouch for the fact Terran aren't toothless. Xan are worse, but they have lower eta ships and DCs will love them. Zik Cr is amazing. I know some people that love Zik Cr more than Fr, or Bs.

why on earth did they think these stats are good ouch! make it a preround to see and test the stats and not soem closed beta with a few people out of the 4500 who play this game and msot of them even pay.

Because a lot of people have had input. They've been betaed in some version for around 2 weeks, after I dropped one steal ship and all EMP/cloaked ships from non cath/xan respectively. And 2.2k/3.7k played last round, btw.

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by barney

if you want to steal ships, go zik ??? you seriously dont want to go zik because it is HARD!!! Cath last round from what i hear was hard, but i know ppl who enjoyed it (and some who didnt :P).

to me it is really simple ziks steel xan/cath/ter DO NOT STEEL. what we are making is some kind of inbred race system, which removes the individual benefits/disadvantages/nuonces which gave each race charachter and led to some ppl being dedicated to a race such as myself with xan.

Currently, adding one steal ship doesn't completely mix the races. I can't see how anyone is still claiming that, really. I acknowledge that it makes Zik slightly less Zik, but basically it allows people to steal ships into their secondary (lower ETA) pod class, which is targetted with a steal ship from their primary pod class. Giving each race a steal ship means they can enjoy a small amount of stealing without having to try and play Zik - it means that the game has a life at the end of the round, with people trying to steal ships still.

where did this idea about changing the stats come from anyway ffs all they needed was a little tweaking, now we have to go thru the hard process of playing rounds to get the stats right again to get back to the point where we were after last round (no the stats wll surely not be THIS good after one round of this new system).

/me is wondering if its really worth playing next round tbh :/

see above.

[Rocko]

roll on public beta,...
My moans aint on every race having one stealing ship,.. your can see the stat forum to read them

The basics of each race is still there.
Ziks can steal everything
Terren ships are still big, bulky, expensive
Caths have 6 EMP ships covering every ship type, so they can still freeze everything there is
Xans are faster and more visouse then ever with not having any Crui or BS ships, (a frig/de fleet sent can have SEVEN ships in it, 5 fireing, 1 pod and 1 structure killer, which unless u have a cath with enough Frig and DE freezing, then your quite screwed)
Just having 1 stealing ship in their lot dosn't devalue there main characteristics at all.
Does it devalue ziks? no. They'll still struggle initially, and then pull through out on top by the end of the round if played well.
That's what i can see at the moment,.. but as i said, roll on public beta, so we can find out a bit better how it'll turn out.

p.s. Pegs are dead, long live the Harpy

[Neferti]

PA without Harpies isnt PA at all

[Assassin]

ok.. well im glad this is here so i get to say my point I have dissagreed with this idea for ages now.. and as i used to be a follower of the great zik race when i used to play properly i think this basically takes the purpose of zik away. Now some of you ask 'over just one stealing ship your moaning?' Well the reason why i am moaning is becuase as a fellow follower to zik i think your taking away the uniqness of the zik race away. When races were brought in they were ofc supposed to have different qualities.. thats what made them all unique in there own different way.. but now thats bin taken away from zik.. and why? Whats the point in giving all races one steal option where they cant target other zik steal ships? Whats the point in i9t anyway? is it to make people think 'ah yes im good becuase i can also steal one ship class like zik'? I am against it becuase as others said its 1) Impractical to have it.. there is no logic other then to make people happy who dont like the fact zik are a steal race so you thought you give them 1 steal ship (yippee) 2) It takes the unique abilty away from zik.. and all zik players from when it first came in will agree with me. Whats the point in the term 'races' if the abilities of 1 race are shared between the other 3? Thats not individual races.. thats one race. I think it wud of just bin morew logical to downgrade ziks a little bit and perhaps take away there kill ships, that wud of solved the problem of people moaning there to strong ect. So i am against mixing the stealers with other races. Now one person said to me 'you dont have a good enough reason to not have them' but i then ask 'whats the point in having just one steal ship that can only target 1 class?' There isnt one other then to make the none zik players feel 'special'

[Rocko]

It lowers the effect of the ziks value growth, since other races can grow to. It's not impossible to gain ships via stealing for the other races. And it gives a chance to build up the other attack fleet, giving those races more attack options.
If Ziks had only stealers, they'd be to weak, in the early stages of the game,

and PA without harpies would be a PA with interceptors,.. a much better name, harpy is far to girly :P

[Neferti]

True, and I'd rather lose the Harpy than the Spider or the Tarantula, they're even older!

[bwtmc]

Spare us some paragraphs please :\

Good plan Assassin, downgrade Ziks and remove altogether their Kill ships and everything's fixed, I wonder why no one else has thought of that one....

[Assassin]

I suppose giving everyone 1 steal ship is a better sugestion?