new stats

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Ali

* ps. I hope the predator is uncloaked so you have an option of seeing if you got structure killers incoming or not .. ofcourse you could unit scan but uncloaking it couldn't hurt since SK's should be cut lower armor and attack and be something you really have to build purposely .. for a purpose

That's a good idea...

[Cannon_Fodder]

Originally Posted by Ali

since the start i thought if this path was taken it was enough to just make one steal ship for each race and that steal ship should be bigger than what it steals (as in one eta higher, to limit that races stealing capability outside galaxy), and should steal their smallest pod class. that would give the small touch of stealing. You can gain an emp ship or cloak ship from cat/xans and the chains should be cut or seriously limited with steal so you don't get steal chains.

Yeah me and appoc discussed this yesterday, to prevent steal routes, the stealing ships would be in the bigger pod fleet, stealing the smaller pod fleets class, this would mean ziks would have only bs,cr and fr stealers, which might sound bad, but could be taken as a punishment for stealers since they are bigger ships thus have a higher eta..

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by sniborp

Yeah me and appoc discussed this yesterday, to prevent steal routes, the stealing ships would be in the bigger pod fleet, stealing the smaller pod fleets class, this would mean ziks would have only bs,cr and fr stealers, which might sound bad, but could be taken as a punishment for stealers since they are bigger ships thus have a higher eta..

Yes, I have knocked up a set of stats like this, which we'll hopefully test today / tomorrow. They might well work, actually. :shock:

[Proxi]

Looking at these stats is making my head hurt, but i have to say for trying something new, hopefully it wont be too hard to balance \o/

[MAdnRisKy]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

Yes, I have knocked up a set of stats like this, which we'll hopefully test today / tomorrow. They might well work, actually. :shock:

my guess is they look a bit like the terran of the speed round, where they could steal DE class but that had no stealers in it.

that actually would work very well if zik had no stealers in the stolen classes.

It may mean that the pod classes for other races need re jigging but efectively it means that whilst zik has 6 stealers, they're spread out in 3 classes, so that the remaining 3 classes with no stealers in, are what the non zik stealers target. make sense?

[Cannon_Fodder]

Yes thats correct, me now waits for appoc to post the link

[Appocomaster]

here
Though they need modifying. the Broadsword is Fr stealing Fi

[Cannon_Fodder]

shouldnt the predator be fr?

[Appocomaster]

yes :-) and uncloaked. I haven't updated it I've spent too much time fielding everyone else's stats. I have quite a large folder of them now

[Makhil]

tough for terran BS vs Cath. OK the Black Widow freezes them init 1, but the Tarant killing them init 7 even before what's not freezed can fire a shot is a bit too much (should be init 9 imho).
Terran BS vs Xan is even worse with 2 ships (tzen, peacekeeper) fire at them wth better init. but i guess there must be one race immune so that's ok.
BTW the peacekeeper is useless atm, who's gonna build a CR anti BS targetted by both Ter and Zik BS, when there is the FR Tzen shooting all BS for free ?

[MAdnRisKy]

I'd use the peacekeeper to stop a cat cr bs attack, which otherwise you could stop unimpeeded if they didn't send the bs (by using bombers).

I like those last set of stats appoc, like em a lot (but isn't the scarab a bit of a monster fire power wise?)

[Appocomaster]

Yes, i realise the tzen is a far better anti bs than the peacekeeper. I can't find anything for the peacekeeper to do atm :/
Terran armour upgraded slightly - especially on the Syren
Tarantula init -> 9 so it's not quite so harsh for Terran
Scarab damage dropped from 140->135 (it was a bit of a monster, but it did save my ass in beta a few times - it is meant to be the best anti cr in the game though)
Tzen damage reduced from 30 to 27
Broadword now correctly displayed as Fr -> Fi.
lancer and peacekeeper shifted down the page and now have new prices (ratios the same) (they're new prices because I couldn't be bothered to try and squeeze the broadsword on, and all the others are pretty multiples of 3....) but the peacekeeper armour + damage upgraded.

Edit: oh, forgot about changing the predator to Fr. updated that too now.
Also slightly changed the arrowhead - it's a 0 loss defence, and maybe i'm biased as I lost 3/5 of my first attacks in beta to it, but it's probably slightly overpowered

[Cannon_Fodder]

Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy

(but isn't the scarab a bit of a monster fire power wise?)

Sssshhhhh

[MAdnRisKy]

must come and beta test some time, that viper for a cat ship looks a bit hefty but has it's place

I disagree about the arrow though, looks like a paper thin terran now (all you had to do was send spiders appoco :P) i'd put the damage back up to 44 or so

[Appocomaster]

so they get my beetles with their tzen? yes I admit beetles is a good idea :-) though that means the viper is needed for Fr.

[MAdnRisKy]

beetles? tzen??

you're sending in beetles anyway along with vipers I hope (both co) by adding in spids, you emp fi and co and kill fr. (and thus arrow only def won't stop the fleet cos they don't fire).

as they stand arrows do look quite weak, almost comparable with say the blades from last round. As they have poo armour, the addition of spids negates the use of em anyway, might as well give em some kick!

oh and for all that is holy, please swap the names of the tzen and the broadsword around

[Makhil]

Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy

beetles? tzen??
you're sending in beetles anyway along with vipers I hope (both co) by adding in spids, you emp fi and co and kill fr. (and thus arrow only def won't stop the fleet cos they don't fire).

Let's say i build some lancers...

[Texan]

Where can I find ship stats?

[Appocomaster]

here
recent updates are in red

[shik]

imho all xan ships should be cloaked, and all stolen xan ships should be uncloaked.
something like a cloak generator on the planet or like the "arbiter" in starcraft-broodwar.
tnx.

[Rocko]

Pegs are dead, long live the harpy,....
Pegs now have no use to deffend agasint FI inc, unless there isnt many pulsars. Unless xan send CO with their FI, which they may tend to do, the Harpy will be able to deffend the Xan inc,.. however, i belive xans will team their fi and co in an attack ,on a terren at least, taking out any harpys with the sentinals. Terrens build griffs to deffend agasint CO, but they shoot after the xans have done their damage,... but BEFORE this the Vsh fi takes a wack at the griffs,...
I put forward that the pegs init time should lower to 4 (3 preferably, but that's cus im a terren at heart ) thus the pegs have more of a use for the planets own deffence, as well as in gal, while the xans still have the attack option since their pulsar fire with the pegs.

with two races with BS pods,.. i've been looking at the BS attacks/deffence for a while now, and think they're fairly well balanced

xans i think will send their pods with their pair, by that i mean, Fi will go with CO, and frigs with De,.. without the De or CO then their attack will probably fail, with it, they leave their home planet deserted of more ships,... but being cloacked makes you have to wonder what they send,.. still belive xans are very strong, with their lack of crui and BS, then a number of ships have nothing to do agasint Xans,... but an improvment from last round definatly,.. for caths as well as xans,..

so mostly an, i like it,.. cept for the pegs,..

[jerome]

Originally Posted by Rocko

Pegs are dead, long live the harpy,....

hello sentinels.

[noah02]

Originally Posted by Rocko

long live the harpy,....

as long as i am playing I will make sure they live :P

[jerome]

Just had a glance at the stats, few notes:

As wonderfully exciting each race having a ship which steals is, the basic flaws are still there:
*A kill race can roid another kill race with no problem whatsoever
*If your going to bring back steal ship death once it steals x% of it's armour/resources, then zik is pretty amazingly unplayable apart from shipfarmers.
*You've done a magnificent job of making every other race apart from Zik a superb eh.. Zik. They are all able to roid freely with a fleet option -AND- have the option of stealing ships as well as roids to allow them to take bigger aesthetic losses, whereas Zik has only the latter option <insert more stuff later>

this post isn't finished, i'll continue later.

[Rocko]

Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_

hello sentinels.

yep, thus my comment about fi and co going together,....

so unless griffs init time comes down to,.. it's gonna be messy for terrens to deffend a combined fi-co inc from a xan,..

sents init is 3, so its gonna take a cath with spids to help out a terren,...

i think caths will do ok agasint xans,..
terrens have a slight advantage over caths,... only one anti DE ship and its EMP, as for BS, if syrens are sent in with the BS, then cath counters with scarabs, which willg et stolen by any wyverns sent in (chims stolen to if a terr helps)

But as long as caths have enough ships and stay strong, they should be fine,... and i cant forsee a repeat of last rounds wipe out for caths,...

it's a shame theres no xan De that targets Fi or frig, though i'd love to steal a load of lancers to use as deffence agasint xan co, or zik clippers for their frigs,...

talking of ziks,.. i've avoided looking at them till i got a feel for the other three,..
hmmm,..
initially weak agasint a few ship types, strong agasint Terren De though,.. but with the stealing that will change,....

overall i think the stats lean towards making people team up from different races to land a good hit on a target,... especially for terrens,.. but others too. cath crui with terren De vs ziks,..

but hey, we'll see

[Makhil]

Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_

*If your going to bring back steal ship death once it steals x% of it's armour/resources, then zik is pretty amazingly unplayable apart from shipfarmers.

Last round ziks were playable only by shipfarmers AND lowbie bashers, so in a way it would be an improvement

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Makhil

Last round ziks were playable only by shipfarmers AND lowbie bashers, so in a way it would be an improvement

I call bullshit.

[Rocko]

ok, been chatting the stats over, and come up with this,....

Caths
swop Roach and Gaudians target around

Caths crui ships as an attacking fleet are a bit rubish. Thus it opens up for them the ability to attacks xans, because right now they can't

Xans need a Crui and a Battleship, slow them down, cus right now, their attacking fleets are spread over a variety of targets with quick inits, and they are great for deffending because everything is fast enough to reach with a couple of ticks to spare

Broadsword to Crui
Peacekeeper back to Battleship
(with slight increase to cost obviously, keep inits same i think, raise armour and FP along with cost)
these changes opens them up more of a target for caths and Terrens, but still allowing xans to have the better attacking option still,

[The_Mad_Keg]

i wouldnt say we cant attack xans full stop, but the cath crui/bs fleet is a bit weak, dragons will cause all sorts of hurt before the tulas even get going, zik wise u need alot of tulas to chew through the various bs ships to knock out the rogues, even then ull still lose a fair amount of crui, most of which will be tulas as they have weak armour. xan wise u need 500 Guards to stop 5.3k xan frigs, and theres gonna be alot more frigs around, specially if u are attacking a higher value which u have to do for xp. kinda ruins the whole cath crui fleet when uve got to concentrate more on bs.. defence is a little easier with ure vips but if the xans send lancers u could be in trouble.

My main problem though is the Roach... apart from attacking a xan who is getting chim def its a pointless attack ship. u dont need it vs zik or terr as they have no des targeting crui. its only needed to protect frig emping guards hitting a xan with chim def. considering its of the primary attack ship class seems a bit of a waste, also useless for ally def. i see the need for good anti des but maybe in a different class?? a lack of anti des u can def ally with isnt much of a problem, everyone needs some weakness like that, but it seems a waste of ure major attack class

[kamikaze69]

I agree with Rocko's latest post about swapping the targets of the Roach and the Guardian around.....and with it goes the Armor/Cost and Damage/Cost.

eg.
Roach Cr Destroyer EMP 2 160 220 40000 12000 16000 12000 40 55
Guardian Bs Frigate EMP 2 220 300 60000 18000 24000 18000 37 50
becomes
Roach Cr Frigate EMP 2 150 200 40000 12000 16000 12000 38 50
Guardian Bs Destroyer EMP 2 240 330 60000 18000 24000 18000 40 55

also, you can't seriously say that a Cath Basilisk will have more armor AND more damage than a Zik Galleon surely!!!

But when it comes to the Xan's, I think having all their units without even needing siege class hulls is a GOOD thing, changes the dynamics of it all. I think it's quite good.

<TBC>

[Rocko]

granted u dont have to think about them sending BS or crui,.. but they attack such a variety and quick init times, that it's difficult to deal with them,,..
double edged sword,.. perhaps

[kamikaze69]

remember that a newbie will then suicide all his units, leaving him open for retal, whereas a season PA player will then look to see what units he doesn't need to much of and leave them for base defense limiting the amount of units he can actually send at you.

[Appocomaster]

With these stats having the majority of ships concentrated on the pod classes, it does mean that retals are often as strong, if not stronger than defense, which encourages XP (a lot more than stealing, really).
Swapping the Guardian and Roach targets is a possibility, as is swapping the Bomber and Peacekeeper over (though that'd then mean that Terran fleet had a De fleet hitting Fi Co Fr Cr Bs available).

[kamikaze69]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

With these stats having the majority of ships concentrated on the pod classes, it does mean that retals are often as strong, if not stronger than defense, which encourages XP (a lot more than stealing, really).
Swapping the Guardian and Roach targets is a possibility, as is swapping the Bomber and Peacekeeper over (though that'd then mean that Terran fleet had a De fleet hitting Fi Co Fr Cr Bs available).

I see what you are concerned about Appocomaster, you are worried about the whole balancing between Cath and Xan. In my opinion: if you want to make Cath's a stronger race than last age then make the ships stats lean towards AGGRESSIVE rather than DEFENSIVE.

We are still keeping the balance by making the Guardians stronger, but change the targets thus making the Roach more useful against Xan on an ATTACK (which is pretty much all Cath players will be wanting to do). Also, what you have in brackets up there in that quote is not of any consequence because the way you have it now a Terran DE fleet will be hitting Fi, Co, Fr, De, Cr, BS thus making them the most destructive race out there atm.

<TBC>

[Rocko]

i think the Xan peacekeeper - bomber swopping would sort out most of the problems.
Still think xans > terr > caths but got more of a chance at being proved wrong :P

[kamikaze69]

and here, I am thinking to myself it's actually the other way around.....should be a good round methinks.

once you have updated the stats Appocomaster, can you please post the URL link back in here again please???

[berzerker]

Can't wait to try defending this round. Gonna have some major headaches

[Chika]

these stats are official? i thought this thread was a joke gone overboard? oh, jesus.

[kamikaze69]

this is currently what Appocomaster is proposing as the ship stats, but there is a balancing issue between Cath and Xan atm (just trying to sum up boys in one recent post).

http://appocomaster.50megs.com/stats3.htm

Any thoughts/opinions are welcome, and can someone please get Appocomaster to confirm that these are the latest changes???

[furball]

Those aren't the latest stats.


Public Beta is tomorrow!

[kamikaze69]

yay, ty Furball. Where can we find the latest stats then?

[furball]

depends. If you have the password, it's

http://jpaweb03.planetarion.com/stats.pl

[kamikaze69]

and here I was thinking that it was to be a public thing.....

[Appocomaster]

Stats will be updated tonight and by the time signups start tomorrow the stats at jpaweb03.planetarion.com/stats.pl will be the official beta testing stats. They will be a basic variation on those linked to above (and may or may not include steal for all races)

[Ultimate Newbie]

why did you listen to those whinging zik bastards and remove stealing for all?

i hate it when the establishment give in to special interest groups. i'm a big fan of the 'silent majority' and trying to make it most enjoyable for them . Obviously, that's hard :\ .

[edmoo]

I agree - stealing for all is a good idea. Just adds a little extra interest.

[Rocko]

dammed if he does somthing, dammed if he changes it, dammed if he dosn't do anything.

and WHY havn't you made pegs init 1 yet!! ffs

[kamikaze69]

Yeah, Rocko, it's kinda obvious that your are a Terran by heart...Maybe init 4, but definately not init 1...lol

[bwtmc]

Give Zikonian subversion back, and cut stealing altogether. It'll give me something to laugh about at least.

[Rocko]

Me? terren?? i just want the game to be fair,....

ziks also be given inits 500000000 and armour 1 and firepower 1 for every ship (and cost a small fortune to make),...
just my thoughts