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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 14:35   #1
MrLobster
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One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

Ok this was said in another thread but it needed splitting up and this idea was worth doing so.

Remove the 3 resources
Remove the current 3 resources and 3 roid types, and replace with a Single Currency & single Asteroid type.

1) Output from this single roid is trippled, to account for the 3 old roid types. e,g. from 250 per roid to 750 per roid.
2) All current resource stats would be combined to form the cost of the single resource. e.g. Harpy m:60 c:50 e:50 now would be 160 Credits.

Galaxy fund would not be used for resource exchange, But leads on to second "point", but not a new idea.

Tax on galaxy players
Maybe optional for galaxy members
This would fill up the gal fund for use with galaxy scanners / smaller player donations.
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 14:44   #2
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

You've explained your idea, but perhaps you could explain why you think your idea is a good one?

I'll give my thoughts on this later, as it seems a bit pointless in arguing for and against it when you haven't explained the benefits for why Planetarion should be changed in this way.
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 17:55   #3
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

We dont need 3 different resources.

In the beginning we had M/C/E

1) M + C were used for building ships.

2) E was used as ship fuel, but that feature has been removed.

3) M + C were used for starting research, but that too has been removed.

4) You have no control over which roids you mine/steal.

5) Some items just take the same cost through each resource (waves / agents / constructions), changing to 1 type would make these areas simpler.

I did have the suggestion about 1 roid type but produces all 3 resources, with the mining page allowing you to set a ratio. So you could mine more metal per tick with less crystal or eonium. Even though I like that idea, it still complicates matters.

The micro management of resources isnt that big of an issue these days.
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 18:10   #4
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

This is a good idea.

The fund will still be used for exiles and shizzle, so doesn't need removing or changing. Alternatively, it could be an automatic thing, where each planet loses a certain amount of resources based on size.

That point is moot when/if exiling is removed completely, in which case the galfund plays no role and I vote for its removal. I see no point in artificially keeping something useless alive.
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 18:56   #5
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

Makes sense really.
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 21:10   #6
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
This is a good idea.
/me falls over

:P
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 22:16   #7
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

just wanted to mention some old threads mentioning the single combined resource, or ideas similar to it. maybe can incorporate some of that stuff, or get input from those old comments:

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=194900
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...52&postcount=2
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 22:30   #8
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate View Post
Other possible suggestions....

....Abolish eonium to help declutter the stats tables. Have ter/zik cost more M and cat/etd cost more C. Edit roid formulae/income to take account of this - eg FC's income bonus now 0.75%. Doesn't add much to the game but it doesn't lose anything either. Makes the stats less intimidating.
Thats I suppose halfway measure, pleasing the old school and reducing clutter for new players to remember.
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Unread 23 Mar 2009, 23:33   #9
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

Personally, I don't see how making some people init more roids of a certain type at round start adds anything to the game. I for one don't select my targets by which roid type they have more of, in the knowledge that capping the wrong kind costs me less than a quarter of a percent (0.0025) of my total income. In that sense, having two types is not much better than having three.

Also, increasing relative bonuses is not actually needed (though perhaps changing the init formula is).
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 00:07   #10
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

I think this is one area of the game which could be made more interesting if more resource types were added.

Different ships could require 2-3 out of 10 (or any other number) different resource types. Maybe BS could be dominated towards metals (titanium, etc), with lighter ships being something different. So if you want to focus on light ships the resources you'd concentrate on would be entirely different to someone playing the same race doing heavy ships.

You could adjust roid capture so either your fleet or particular ships only target certain types of roid. Maybe you just want to capture that particular type of roid, or maybe your alliance attack wants to completely starve a target planet of it's most essential resource used for building a particular type of ship.

I agree it's implemented in a rather pathetic way at the moment, as nearly all the ships for a single race are produced with the same proportions of resources.

Looks like I'm on my own though, as everyone else wants to reduce things to one resource...
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 00:16   #11
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Personally, I don't see how making some people init more roids of a certain type at round start adds anything to the game. I for one don't select my targets by which roid type they have more of, in the knowledge that capping the wrong kind costs me less than a quarter of a percent (0.0025) of my total income. In that sense, having two types is not much better than having three.

Also, increasing relative bonuses is not actually needed (though perhaps changing the init formula is).
Agreed, I dont think that many people actually select targets based on roid ratio, as many people have equal number of roids.

With single roid+currency, only a few bonuses need to be increased. Roid output, Roid Init Cost.

GReaper: your idea then is to have upto 9 types of resource (3 per meta ship class).

But then people who build FI/CO only would only init 3 roid types, and so CR/BS fleets would never attack them as the roids are useless.

Or perhaps you combine 2x resources (or 2x Roids) to produce a new compound e.g. Titanium+Silicon = Titanium Silicate.

But then this all complicates things once again.


Also to the notion of making fleets decide which roids to steal, points back to my original idea (also stated above) is to allow your home planets mining page set a ratio for which minerals to extract from all your roids (Single roid type).
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 01:22   #12
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

I'm not suggesting a specific number of resources, but just a variety of resources. Example: Mankind's ship list - go check through the resources for each of the ship types. Certain resources are common and easy to get, other resources are rare, valuable and worth fighting over.

There is no real fight for territory or resources in Planetarion, the only thing people play for is roid count, score and xp. It would be nice to see something more meaningful like Eve, with people battling for territory instead of just a number.

I suppose it varies what areas of the game you want to see become slightly more complex and interesting, and which areas you think should be made more simple.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 01:26   #13
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

GReaper brings up interesting points, and stuff I'd love to see included into the game...but the idea of territory, rare resources, and actually fighting over something "important" in the grand scheme of things is (imo) a whole other can of worms.

I see no reason Terran ships should cost more of x resource and less of y, while Cat ships cost more of y resource and less of x.

That model, or system, is antiquated.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 01:33   #14
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

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Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
GReaper brings up interesting points, and stuff I'd love to see included into the game...but the idea of territory, rare resources, and actually fighting over something "important" in the grand scheme of things is (imo) a whole other can of worms.
Indeed. Geography is something that's come up several times in the past, and though it's certainly an interesting area (forgive the pun), it'd be a huge overhaul for the game. So much so, in my opinion, that it would cease to be Planetarion altogether.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 02:32   #15
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

if you remove M, C and E maybe you could introduce High, Medium and Low grade roids, giving 750, 500 and 250 res each.
A high grade roid become medium grade after 200 ticks, then low grade after 200 extra ticks.
you could at any point aggregate 2 medium to make a high
or split a high to make 4 low
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 02:40   #16
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

Something similar was discussed ages ago; having roids "run out" of resources after x amount of ticks.

Short answer was, you'd have to track *every* roid in the universe, in the database.

They can't even get the game to run properly, let alone do something of that magnitude.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 03:06   #17
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
We dont need 3 different resources.

In the beginning we had M/C/E

1) M + C were used for building ships.

2) E was used as ship fuel, but that feature has been removed.

3) M + C were used for starting research, but that too has been removed.

4) You have no control over which roids you mine/steal.

5) Some items just take the same cost through each resource (waves / agents / constructions), changing to 1 type would make these areas simpler.

I did have the suggestion about 1 roid type but produces all 3 resources, with the mining page allowing you to set a ratio. So you could mine more metal per tick with less crystal or eonium. Even though I like that idea, it still complicates matters.

The micro management of resources isnt that big of an issue these days.
This is one of the main problems with PA today. Admins simply dont understand what they are doing and code new 'features' every round regardless of weither they add to the game or not, they simply code them so that they have something to announce.

Lets look at the resource system:
1. Metal was designed with the intention of being the resource to initiate roids and build NORMAL ships.
2. Crystal was designed to be the resource to build scans and EMP ships.
3. Eonioum was the resource for fuel.

Admins decided that fuel costs were wrong for the game so deleted them. What did they do with Eonoum? nothing. So admins made Eonioum redudent but then didnt care, they only had the foresight to get rid of the fuel costs.

They then got rid of the EMP/Normal tech tree, what did they decide to do the resource system? NOTHING.

They then got rid of the scanning and initating for roids system? Instead they replaced it with a simple system of it costs Metal to init Metal roids, Crystal for Crystal roids etc..

This made the 3 resource system COMPLETLY redudent, there is 0 reason for it.

this expands to every single area of PA, its overly complicated and overly retarded. There is no vision in PA, so over the course of 30 rounds, things have progressivly got worse as admins code additions to the game which arnt needed or arnt thought through.

Next, lets look at Research.. Seems reletively simple, in the beginning each research would take X amounts of ticks regardless of external factors i.e. Frigate ships would take 12 ticks to everyone. Now, lets look at the current state of research?
Things no longer take X amounts of ticks, that was deemed way too simple ages ago. Instead now each race is assigned a Base Research Points, then we have Goverment bonuses added to that base research points and then on top of that we have the population bonuses added onto it, if that wasnt enough.. we then have research factory (construction) bonuses added onto it and all of this adds up to equal the amount of ticks it takes to research something. Confused? you should be but lets look at what the Manual has to say on this matter, maybe its less confusing.. so lets go and look at the 'research page':
Quote:
Certain races and governments have an advantage / disadvantage when it comes to research, see the Races and Population pages for further information.
Thats all it says on the matter, they dont bother with the equation because its stupidly complicated but for the sake of argument lets figure out the equation to find the research points for a Terran planet with 50% population in research and 1 Research facility (out of 1 construction) and dictatorship goverment:
100+((100/100)*50)+((100/100)*20)-((100/100)*10)
(i think that formula's right?)
Wow, what a way to attract new players.. make the game so stupidly complicated it will take them ages to understand the mechanincs.. that will attract them to stay?

Lets look at the old system, of every research has a static amount of time to research.. What was wrong with it? i'll ask that again, WHAT WAS WRONG WITH IT? nothing, admins changed it for the sake of it.

The same goes for construction.

Now lets look at the population page?
Population: 122,364,100 Growth: 3%.. Wow my population is 122,364,100 what does that mean? i better look at the manual..
Quote:
The first thing that you will notice about this page is the size of your population and the growth percentage of your population. Currently this means nothing to the management of your planet, as this will be developed in the coming rounds with Population playing a much bigger role in the game.
So it means nothing? so.... WHAT IS IT DOING IN THE GAME? If the feature isnt finished yet, then why is it public?

zPeti, you wonder why PA has lost a huge portion of its player base and how to make PA a better game? All you need to do is look at the game then quiz Appocomaster on what you see... Here is some suggestions:
1. What is the point of Eonium? What is special about it?
2. So there's no point to it? so whys it in the game?
3. What is the point of Crystal? what is special about it?
4. You deleted the reasons for it? but kept it in the game?
5. Why is MOTD (Message of the Day) so overly cramped and containing months old information?
6. Why did you implement new quests in the game? with no reward of intentive? what do these achieve except for confusing new players?
7. Why is the in-game mail you recieve when you sign up to PA and log-in a wall of text with no information,tips or guidence for new players.. instead all it does is inform players that they can upgrade there account.
8. Why in a war game? is it much more profitable not to go to war but to fence? Surely, in a war game.. war should be the most profitable and the combat code backs that up?
9. Why is everything in the game so complicated and not explained? To work out the research points you'll recieve you need to visit 3 pages of the manaul and think of the formula yourself.. When in the original Planetarion, the most complicated formula was Amps vs Asteroid Scans.
10. Why are there 5 different races? what did this add to the original game? or was they just added for an extra feature? Why not just 1 race with multiple tech tree paths?
11. What is the point in constructions? Everyone (in the know) just spams Finance Centers for maxium benefit, even adding a cap on them does nothing, as everyone will still spam them until they reach the cap.
12. Why are research labartorys in the game? what do they add except make the research formula more complicated and force everyone to make there 1st/6th/11th/etc consutrction a research center.
13. Waves? how does a new player attack people without proper access to scans? or how does a small alliance cope without dedicated scanners? simple answer is they dont do well at all.. Is there anything being done about this? No? as admins arnt concerned about new players or small alliances as they arnt the ones in #alliances.
14. WTF IS #alliances, why do some people get priority on how PA is run? Is it a simple your Ego must be this big to have an opinion?
15. Why is there 0 updates on the portal, The game might as well be dead as far as the portal is concerned, its updated once every 2months (or everytime theres a rollback) with crap. Wow, there was a creators hour? Do i want to sive through all the crap? no, but have you taken 5minutes to make a summary of the important things said? no, you've simply copied and pastied a log. pravo.
16. Covert ops, dont get me started.
17. Production? why can people hide there prod? WTF is the point in adding factorys to the game?
18. Why is incluster defence -1 ETA? is there any cluster alliances anymore?
19. Why doesnt prelaunch have any major penaltys against it other than being detected in a JGB?

I could go on with this crap but at the end of the day thats what you should be doing zPeti. Question every single addition to Planetarion which has been made since Round 1 and if the answer isnt to your satisfaction, change it. The thing PA is missing is vision, as every single round PA Team changes its mind on what it wants to do and it results in a huge mess.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 07:59   #18
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Exclamation Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

Light pretty well said most of what I was going to say. There are a lot of features (or remnants of features) that don't make sense anymore because other features have been ripped out. Removing the remnants is one option; giving the remnants some new purpose would be another. The real problem though is one of vision and design. How do you want the game to work and what features are necessary to make that happen?

There's also a trade-off between texture and complexity. Game features (different resource types, different ship types, different races, different tech branches, etc) can add interest to the game; but they also add complexity. Also, it always easier/more fun to add new features rather than delete old ones, so feature creep and second-system effects are a real problem.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 14:29   #19
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

Comments on Lights

1) I prefer the old style of style of PA production, the current way isnt needed. Do we really need to be able to build ships faster? You can still keep the constructions for ship building, just dont have them affect the actual building time.

2) Research construction is a bit silly and no real point in having it, thats what population is for.

3) The same could be said for Security centers.

4) With prelaunch, I think you need to be a little leanient on the newbs, it opens up the game to semi actives without changing the essence of the game.

Population Trimming

The reasoning for some of the below, is to be able to disrupt the target planets abilities, but you cannot affect pop settings externally.

1) Remove the population setting for ship wrights, I doubt many people use this.

2) Remove population setting for Security, a bit redundant if you have security guards and agents. The pop setting ends up being used at the end of the round when enough research is done. which isnt nice for cov-ops.

3) Remove population setting for research, but keep research labs.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 14:52   #20
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
This is one of the main problems with PA today. Admins simply dont understand what they are doing and code new 'features' every round regardless of weither they add to the game or not, they simply code them so that they have something to announce.

...

I could go on with this crap but at the end of the day thats what you should be doing zPeti. Question every single addition to Planetarion which has been made since Round 1 and if the answer isnt to your satisfaction, change it. The thing PA is missing is vision, as every single round PA Team changes its mind on what it wants to do and it results in a huge mess.
I think this deserves a seperate thread, whilst it's a super long rant - it's a decent and fairly accurate one.

Far too many changes in the past 15 or so rounds have been tweaking the same things over and over again, very little new worthwhile content has been added. A few changes are appreciated at times, but it's just going round in circles making existing content more complicated without any benefit from it being changed.
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Unread 24 Mar 2009, 15:40   #21
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

Enough thread hi jacking

go here to discuss Lights Recommendations

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=197590
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 03:33   #22
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

Anway, back on-topic:

I think one resource systems are abit bland, you should always have 2-3 resources which are unique to each other. PA's resource system isnt broken due to there being too many resources but simply due to them having no meaning; Metal is used for the same things as Crystal/Eonium and vice versa.

If your idea was to be implemented, there would have to be a 2nd resource type from somewhere.. which the most logical would simply be 'money'. Which from the top of my head would come from Bank constructions and population.

From looking at the current situation, i'd suggest the following:
1. The cost of initiation roids is always Metal. The reason? Its so easy to explain "to initiate asteroids it costs you METAL". Yet, it adds another layer of tactics to the game and protection.. What roids should you init? how many of each? spam metal roids until when? etc.
2. As you'd now get a range of different ratio of asteroids being init'd you can distinguish the races even further through the stats.. Terran might need Metal and Crystal while Cath might need mainly Crystal. You can make these resource stats always static (i.e. in every round Cath ships require more crystal) so you can put it in the manual as a tip on what to init.
3. Change scans to require mainly Eonium but also give each race a Eonium heavy ship (So that scanners arnt screwed with so many Eonium roids and gives non-scanner planets something to use that spare eonium on).

The one simple change of making Asteroids require just Metal to init adds a whole new element to the game but most importantly, It doesnt make it so you have unreadable formulas.
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Unread 25 Mar 2009, 03:46   #23
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Re: One Roid To Rule Them All *split*

that's old pa :P
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