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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 02:26   #1
Aedolaws
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New Scan

How about one scan that instead functions as a radar beep from the emitting planet to discover both: who was the last planet to (a) cov op or (b) scan the emitting planet.

So basically, an order to retrieve this info. Ofc, it can only be done to our own planet, but (and this is the tricky part) the rate of success should be contingent on the cov oper/scanner's number of security centers or distorters.

Is this possible? Or some variation of it?

What for? well I can think of two at this moment: (1) discover who is the idiot(s) that have been stealing my money the past 7 days in a row; (2) have an idea what are the chances of getting incoming that night - because no scan by 2100 should suggest a clear night, peace of mind, early dreaming.

Last edited by Aedolaws; 25 Jun 2008 at 06:05.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 02:30   #2
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Re: New Scan

huh? you mean something that would tell you the last person that scanned or covert oped you personally?

edit: oh you edited your original post so i'm gonna edit mine instead of doing a repost repost.

there has been a discussion about the scan thing before which i'll link (bear in mind that it compares the way old system to the current one): Failed scan attempts in News

as far as your suggestion goes, i see no problem in the scanning part of it, but if you want to find out who is covert oping you - you should boost your security and make them fail. plus, in both cases, odds are you can't attack the person doing it is outside of your bash limit because cov op and scan planets tend to keep a lowish value/score. be aware though, that some people only scan for the sake of gathering information. i seem to recall one round in ascendancy where we had the whole universe scanned to see how many dists/amps everyone had. also, if you're that paranoid about being attacked, you can jumpgate yourself every tick to check for prelaunches.

good idea? possibly. something i'd push to have implemented? definitely not. imo.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 03:32   #3
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Re: New Scan

i like the idea
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 05:18   #4
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Re: New Scan

Thanks for the link Zaejii. I read most of it. But this is slightly different than showing up on the news. I remember that feauture, and indeed it was annoying to have the NEWS lighted up so often. But this is different. This would require an affirmative step.

We might make it cheaper than a jgp. Thus, players that tend to self jgp before going to bed can use this before the jgp. If nothing shows, no need for the more expensive jgp. Or for those paranoid as I am, the double safety check should be enough.

In terms of cov op and bashing cap, ofc u r correct, but the same holds true when you jgp yourself and see 3 tiny planets you can't attack are ganging up to take you down. I do understand, however, that probabilities that cov opers will be low value are high. But not every cov op comes from a cov oper, and revenge is often sweet, especially in a war game.

Anyways, I think it cannot hurt, but I have no clue how much it would cost to get it implemented. And yes, the value of everything resides in their cost/benefit.

Last edited by Aedolaws; 25 Jun 2008 at 05:27.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 10:18   #5
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Re: New Scan

The whole point of a covert operation is that it is covert.

If you want to know who scanned you build dists to stop them and see if you can find out that way. A scan is unnecessary and would add further research time to an already long path.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 10:27   #6
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Re: New Scan

I am not fond of this idea. For cov-opping Ghosteh mentioned the reason. Discovering who is scanning you I don't see as a valid option. It would be like a Uncloaking Scanbeam to disclose the type of Xan-Ships. It would make the game less dynamic and more predictable. That is not what PA needs.
Finally, I wouldnt be happy seeing an even more extended research path. It already takes so much time
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 16:19   #7
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Re: New Scan

Hmm, hmm, hmm, I am not sure I want to spend the day in the forums again. But maybe just this one.

(1) A cov op does not always remain secret, sometimes we do find out who was it. right? or did they changed this? not sure. Moreover, this would require an affirmative step plus an investment. Further, it is not certain that you will actually be able to find out. As a cov oper, it would be in your best interest to remain anonoimous, thus, it is in your best interest to stack up in security centers and distorters. Chances are only a handful of dedicated cov oper will be pierced. If you are not a cov oper, then if you take the risk, chances are you will be discovered, if the target decides to check. If the target doesn't bother, then there is no revealing of any kind.

(2) The extra research time arg. is ludicrous. We can take 1 hour from each scan and assign them to this new one. In other words, we can always tweak the research tech tree an reduce the total amount of time. If anything, the tech tree should be more complex, and each tech should take less time.

Believe me m8s, I have no problem being criticed, I actually crave it. But you should think it through before being critical of anything.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 16:26   #8
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Re: New Scan

When the covert operation fails, the target gets a message saying who did it, because when a covert operation fails, it cannot stay covert. When the operation succeeds, only the result can be detected by the target, on account of the operation itself being covert, and thus undetectable. All this seems fairly logical.

While I have no major objections to this suggestion, I don't see it having any merit either.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 16:47   #9
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Re: New Scan

Mzy, your post always shine a bit more of reason than the avr. post. But you know me by now. So here it goes: Why do you say that when a cov op fails, it cannot stay covert? I am not sure what you mean by this. But even if so: Why can't a successful cov op be discovered post facto? What is so illogical about this?
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 17:25   #10
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Re: New Scan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws
Mzy, your post always shine a bit more of reason than the avr. post. But you know me by now. So here it goes: Why do you say that when a cov op fails, it cannot stay covert? I am not sure what you mean by this. But even if so: Why can't a successful cov op be discovered post facto? What is so illogical about this?
When a covert operation fails it is not getting through the defence shield (alert). This means it is discovered by your agents, hence it can't remain covert.
Following, the details of the cov opper are revealed to the target of the cov opper. A successful cov op should remain covert as otherwise the underlying logic of cov opping, namely that you damage someones constructions or whatever without the target knowing who it is, would be violated.
I really don't understand you can't see this yourself. You have shown some reasonable analytical skills before, so what happened here, m8?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws
As a cov oper, it would be in your best interest to remain anonoimous, thus, it is in your best interest to stack up in security centers and distorters. Chances are only a handful of dedicated cov oper will be pierced. If you are not a cov oper, then if you take the risk, chances are you will be discovered, if the target decides to check. If the target doesn't bother, then there is no revealing of any kind.
This is most probably not true. The real bad ass cov oppers I have seen around were having mostly sec centres, loads of refineries and a low amount of distorters. Though, this should be confirmed/denied by a cov opper preferably.
Here you take an assumption which you can't validate yourself. I can't validate my assumption as well, use an argument ad verecundiam, but I do ask for more information to confirm or deny. I am curious whether someone could find me a pro cov opper to comment
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 17:31   #11
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Re: New Scan

"A successful cov op should remain covert as otherwise the underlying logic of cov opping, namely that you damage someones constructions or whatever without the target knowing who it is, would be violated."

This will still happen. A cov oper may/may not be successful and thus may not/may be discovered. Now, after this happens, something else could happen. The cov op may be successful at first, but, what is so illogical about: after the incident the victim runs looking for the perpetrator, and the cov oper may/may not be caught. AND at this point, it would take even further measures from the victima to (a) insure this guy stops cov oping him/her, or (b) retaliate.

Re the balance of distorters & SCs, I admit I have no clue. So I won't argue against this.

And I assume you see no problem with having this feature for scans at least?
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 18:16   #12
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Re: New Scan

If a covert operation is successful, this will happen:
The victim's detectives hurry to the crime scene. They investigate, but due to it being a successful covert operation they can't find any clues about who did it to them. They return home disappointed and discuss about that more investments should be made in sec centres and that the current dedication to security is underrated.
It comes down to this: How can you ever discover a succesfull operation? By pure luck, maybe. And if you have such scan, where would you direct the scan to? At your planet they don't have a clue, so where then? The universe? It should not be made too easy in my opinion. Thus, for me such a scan would not be a useful addition.

About this feature for scans I am not sure. On first sight it could make things even more predictable. In addition, we already can jgp ourselves before bedtime. That seems to be enough?
I will think about it a bit more. There could be more to it.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 18:45   #13
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Re: New Scan

well, i can understand that sometimes (since we have real life relation posts lately) when someone does something bad to you and you devote time and resources to it - you can find out who it is. though the same can be said to building up your security with centres + population. er. yeah, i still don't think its a very good idea
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 20:51   #14
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Re: New Scan

Whats so wrong about finding the cov oper by paying a heavy resources short time price for it... rather than long term (heavy time investment) build up of SCs, which most players wont do. Some players build only 1 SC, or none. Why, if it is worth it in any way (economically, politically, or revenge wise) shouldn't they try to discover the idiot(s) stealing money from them on a daily basis and scan once, twice, three... until they burn the bastard. And myguess is that while the top 200 players won't bother much with this feature, the bottom 1000 will!
Once they discover the spy, they can do as they will, either target them back with cov op (maybe with the help of friends) or set up a tiny retal attack with allies.
Almost everything in life (except love and fear I guess) is an equation of cost/benefit... so, if this could be implemented cheaply (i.e. 1 day's work for a coder - this is just retrieving info, not any of my other elaborated-never-going-to happen ideas)... why not?
And, so far, most people agree that it might be a good idea for scans only. A lot of us build 1 distorter or none. This is a scan meant to give peace of mind, sort of like self jgp oneself, but cheaper... this part of the idea is meant to benefit the big leagues... only us know the inner workings of alliance attacks, we know that gals (or players) targeted will be fully scanned 4, 5, 6 hours before the actual launch. Thus, if no scanning has occurred in the past 10 hours, chances are you won;t get incomings that night. Go to BED! JGP does not accomplish this as efficiently.

Last edited by Aedolaws; 26 Jun 2008 at 21:09.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 21:13   #15
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Re: New Scan

Your arguments against cov opping seem grounded in your own problems you've had with them this round.

If you wanted to stop them, make more pop into security guards. Your other capabilities may take a hit, but it sure as hell works.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 21:29   #16
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Re: New Scan

No, I have not been cov oped once this round, granted I started around tick 300. But I have in the past, every tick, when I was top 10 holder of resources yet with 3 or 4 SCs. I just used that sentence above as a rhetorical device,and you responded with the (and you already know this from the Denial thread) classic ad hominem counter.

In all honesty, whenever I propose something I am not thinking about my own situation, I am thinking about the game as a whole, from the Sids, Fish, Teks and Dics ( :P ) to the most n00b player.

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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 21:33   #17
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Re: New Scan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws
A lot of us build 1 distorter
Building 1 dist is useless. People can't scan without amps, so everyone who wants to scan has at least 1 amp. Planets with X amps can scan planets with X dists. I trust you see where I'm going with this...
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 21:38   #18
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Re: New Scan

(1) Mzy

True, I usually build 1 within my first 100 ticks (cuz you have to start with the 1st one right?) and 1 SC until I get cov oped, then by 200s I build my 2nd one, until next time, but I usually don't go beyond 2 of either, etc...

I usually don't save, so I am usually immune, but in the past, I have gone for saving and it has costed me dearly! And although I had enough fleet to level down roid wise 85%+ of the players (assuming allies wouldn't worry to stop me since cov opers tend to be medium/small size [I usually don;t carry structure killers with me]), I couldn't, cuz I couldn;t find out who was the spy! (and yes, I can hold a grudge) So I just had to let it happen and decide whether I wanted to blow all my savings or build more retarded SCs for 3 or 4 days in a row (and in the mean time I lost 10%+ of my money). I hate building SCs, most of the time, 90%+++ of the time, they do NOTHING for you... although I am usually top 100 cov oper.

(2) Anyways, let us be clear, so far it comes down to:

(a) Cov op option is problematic! Fine! I get it. We can keep talking about it.

(b) Scan option might be feasible, but jgp already does a similar job, so why bother developing this?

(Am I fair or what?)

(3) Scan option

(a) So far I have been saying that it should be cheaper. Maybe the trick should be that it should be more expensive. It should be the scan following JGP in the tech tree and cost wise. A supper JGP. One that not only tells u fleets pre-launched, but also last scan performed (and maybe last Cov op performed). Again, it functions as a radar beep. NOTE THAT I NOTED that it should be contingent, somehow, and this is the tricky part, on the perpetrator's constructions. A radar beep that it register not what X-target has, but what has happened to you, the emitting planet, in the past. (and actually we may restrict by time cap, say, only last 24 hours, although it would be simpler to just have the last scan, last cov op, plus fleets)

(b) Why? Because you can self-jgp yourself and it would tell you if they are any pre-launched fleets, but only if they have been set pre-launched already. And we all know the stringencies that alliances impose upon players.

(c) A jgp will never give you the certainty that an alliance has NOT scanned you that afternoon, so a player will never be sure, until very late at night, whether it should expect incomings that night.

(4) I have no problem blowing one whole night coordinating defense for 200 fleets in my gal, plus helping out the DCs for my allies. BUT I should have to do so every night. I want to go to bed early.

(5) I know some may say "wtf! just wait until next tick, if past X then chances are that you won't get incomings. Thats the game." Buts thats the key!!!! I do not want to (see REBELS). Staring at the screen is for n00bs! I want to spend as little time as possible yet play as well as possible. Thats it! After 10 years of playing PA, I can say this.

(6) Think about it. I am assuming this new scan would take little work. So, why not?

Last edited by Aedolaws; 26 Jun 2008 at 22:37.
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Unread 27 Jun 2008, 00:25   #19
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Re: New Scan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws
Part 1:
You choose to not build them. Hence you are vulnerable for attacks by this side. Seems fair enough to me.
And I would like to reverse your thought that they do nothing for 90% of time. Namely, cov oppers scan possible targets, see you have X sec centres and decide not to cov op you. Thus, it works, but you only know it when someone is so stupid enough to try

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws
(3) Scan option
Removing uncertainty from the game equals the fun of the game imo. And the rules of staying up or not differ from alli to alli. For instance, in Orbit we have not demanded it. Why? Because we all work, study, in short real life, and it is game, not a lifestyle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws
(4) I have no problem blowing one whole night coordinating defense for 200 fleets in my gal, plus helping out the DCs for my allies. BUT I should have to do so every night. I want to go to bed early.
(5) I know some may say "wtf! just wait until next tick, if past X then chances are that you won't get incomings. Thats the game." Buts thats the key!!!! I do not want to (see REBELS). Staring at the screen is for n00bs! I want to spend as little time as possible yet play as well as possible. Thats it! After 10 years of playing PA, I can say this.
Again, it is a choice. If you wish to sleep: sleep. If you wish to DC: DC. If you can't do this at your current alliance: jump ship. NOBODY is controlling you, you are free to choose. Verbs you use here seem to prohibit choice. But you do have a choice!
The more you write about it, the more I feel this is really not necessary. It doesn't add anything to the game, it only extracts imo.

However, the side effect of your writings is that I am starting to think prelaunching should be removed, as it would probably spread attacks to different times... But that is a whole other thing
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Unread 27 Jun 2008, 00:27   #20
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Re: New Scan

True, perhaps. I still prefer laws and certainty... let chaos be perceived (and be the ruler of those) by those who don't know better!!!

But, anyways, I shall sleep like a baby, I cannot refute that, YOU R RIGHT!

BTW Membrivio, I love your signature... what do you consider yourself? a smart man, or a sensible one?

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Unread 27 Jun 2008, 00:38   #21
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Re: New Scan

At least you have some self knowledge.
Though, I think you worded it in the wrong way. I would rather say:
Those who can't work or handle the chaos flee to a world where the fata morgana of certainty rules.

Just a different perspective aye Anyways: good night and good luck.

[EDIT]
By the way it is interesting to see your paradoxal behaviour: on one side you are the man of law and order, and the other you commence a party called the "Rebels" where chaos "rules" and anarchy is plentiful. Just found it funny to see. heh

[EDIT 2]
I am a sensible intelligent man, or an intelligent sensible man. I like the synthesis
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Last edited by Membrivio; 27 Jun 2008 at 00:43.
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Unread 27 Jun 2008, 01:09   #22
Aedolaws
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Re: New Scan

Yes, law and chaos, good and evil, these poles are the basis of human thought. Their canvas. They are at unison what we call: reality. Reality is often confused with certainty, with law, especially in modern virtual worlds. Anyways, the scan, the super JGP scan, thats the issue here. Good or Bad? we are still debating it!!!

====
In a more personal level:

I will just quote Alexander the Great (yeh, in the Hollywood version): "There are many kinds of love (passions, in a Christian sense)."

Personally, I am too smart to be sensible... and too sensible to be smart!
====
REBELS is a unique idea. Something we all should embrace whether we are allied or not. For the good of PA!

Last edited by Aedolaws; 27 Jun 2008 at 01:23.
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