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Unread 31 Dec 2008, 00:50   #1
stay_posi
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Re-visiting the steal ship formula

I was looking over some calcs recently, and it got me thinking of why steal ships are robbed of their firepower after being stolen at a lower init


A basic example of what im referring to


Now, after looking at that, does something seem odd to you? The corsairs steal at init 21, which should happen directly after. A more logical calculation would have this:

Code:
Init 21
Defenders T1 Corsair fired 9000000 shots stealing 1575000 Buccaneer
Defenders Corsair suicide 9000000 ships while capturing.
But it doesn't.. why is that? The stolen ships are not emped nor actually damaged, and their init levels come after the thief, so why arent they firing? I've gotten a couple simple arguments as to why this isn't happening, here is a good one.

Please give some feedback
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Unread 31 Dec 2008, 02:30   #2
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Re: Re-visiting the steal ship formula

Stealing a ship is one thing, taking control of its fire system is another.
To me init determines who fires first in a matter of seconds. In your scenario the Corsairs acquire their targets -in this case none- but then they are stolen, the targeting is lost for that sequence of combat. It takes time to acquire a new target.
Your idea would work if ships were allowed to attack 2 ticks instead of 1.
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Unread 31 Dec 2008, 02:31   #3
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Re: Re-visiting the steal ship formula

so yur saying ships that are stolen in a fight, can fire back in the same batlle?

i just thought stolen ships allready tried and failed wich is basically my view on this and i wouldn't want it changed, would be messy.
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Unread 31 Dec 2008, 02:48   #4
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Re: Re-visiting the steal ship formula

Would be nice if I could steal tons of Beetles during attacking, they could EMP more of the Beetles so I could steal more of them
No way, multi sequensing in the attack wouldent benefit anybody at all. Remember when you capture the ship, you have to clean the cocpit before your pilots starts to use it. Every experienced Zik player know that the pilots need clean enviroment to work properly
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Unread 31 Dec 2008, 03:24   #5
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Re: Re-visiting the steal ship formula

Simplest explanation I can give you is that it would make things very messy.

A more complex explanation would be, because it removes some interesting strategies from the game
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Unread 31 Dec 2008, 08:37   #6
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Re: Re-visiting the steal ship formula

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hut
Stealing a ship is one thing, taking control of its fire system is another.
To me init determines who fires first in a matter of seconds. In your scenario the Corsairs acquire their targets -in this case none- but then they are stolen, the targeting is lost for that sequence of combat. It takes time to acquire a new target.
Your idea would work if ships were allowed to attack 2 ticks instead of 1.
Where does it say that stealing a ship takes up enough time to pass an init level? If an init 21 ship is stolen at init 20, the ship should still be able to fire, period. Seconds / Minutes / Hours do not (should not) have anything to do with a ship stealing something, as it should be based on the init levels

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Originally Posted by HeimdallR View Post
so yur saying ships that are stolen in a fight, can fire back in the same batlle?

i just thought stolen ships allready tried and failed wich is basically my view on this and i wouldn't want it changed, would be messy.
In most cases you would be correct, that a stolen ship has already had its chance to fire its shots. BUT in this particular scenario, the ships stolen actually haven't gotten their 'turn' to act, which is why i dont agree with the current system

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Originally Posted by Auto View Post
Would be nice if I could steal tons of Beetles during attacking, they could EMP more of the Beetles so I could steal more of them
No way, multi sequensing in the attack wouldent benefit anybody at all.
Like i said (kind of) this only applies to ships that havent gotten a chance to fire yet. Beetles would have done so long before being stolen.
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Unread 31 Dec 2008, 09:10   #7
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Re: Re-visiting the steal ship formula

Wasnt it so that ships that where stolen where excluded for the rest of the battle. So you couldnt lose any ships you had stolen, or for that matter couldnt do any extra damage with those ships.
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Unread 31 Dec 2008, 09:16   #8
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Re: Re-visiting the steal ship formula

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Originally Posted by RuBBeR View Post
Wasnt it so that ships that where stolen where excluded for the rest of the battle
Thats kind of the whole point of this thread, is that stolen ships shouldnt be excluded

What the ships do afterwards is their 'natural' purpose in the first place
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Unread 31 Dec 2008, 09:24   #9
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Re: Re-visiting the steal ship formula

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
Stealing a ship is one thing, taking control of its fire system is another.
To me init determines who fires first in a matter of seconds. In your scenario the Corsairs acquire their targets -in this case none- but then they are stolen, the targeting is lost for that sequence of combat. It takes time to acquire a new target.
Your idea would work if ships were allowed to attack 2 ticks instead of 1.
Exactly -- ********** dealt with this problem in that way -- Attacks could be ordered for combat from 1 to 3 ticks and ships stolen in ticks 1 and 2 could be turned and fired on ticks 2 and 3 respectively.
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Unread 31 Dec 2008, 09:54   #10
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Re: Re-visiting the steal ship formula

nvm
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Unread 1 Jan 2009, 09:40   #11
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Re: Re-visiting the steal ship formula

It would get too messy. What would happen if you stole pods or structure killers? It could lead to suicidal fleetcatches where you sacrifice your own fleet to take another, stealing roids with the target's pods. In earlier rounds we sometimes sent structure killers to defend against our own fleet, so we could subvert them and kill the target's structures.
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Unread 1 Jan 2009, 12:15   #12
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Re: Re-visiting the steal ship formula

It would open up for a whole new level of depth in combat, which is _cool_ and not messy. Cool because you can make more decisions on how you want to attack, and - as Sid Meier already said a long time ago - "a [strategy] game is a series of interesting decisions".
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Unread 1 Jan 2009, 14:51   #13
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Re: Re-visiting the steal ship formula

What Heartless said
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Unread 1 Jan 2009, 22:16   #14
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Re: Re-visiting the steal ship formula

Posi: The decision to not let stolen ships with higher inits fire was taken by myself and a couple others (whoever was implementing it at the time) in round 13. Back then stealers didn't suicide, so I felt it made possible to large swings (stealing ships that then stole more ships). Now that the ships suicide, it's a different story.

Incidentally, Subversion in the first few PAX rounds worked like this, except it had low init, which opened for a nasty attack, where subversion ships were sent along with larger defense fleets that would be subverted (and invincible). Any opening of steal ships to fire would need to be studied for similar possibilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cknight725 View Post
Exactly -- ********** dealt with this problem in that way -- Attacks could be ordered for combat from 1 to 3 ticks and ships stolen in ticks 1 and 2 could be turned and fired on ticks 2 and 3 respectively.
They stole this from PA. In round 6 and 7 stealing sucked because there were no 'same class steals', you'd end up stealing something that was exposed so it died the next tick. In round 8 they 'fixed' this by making the Thief (iirc) target its own class.

Multiticks attacks are horrific and "bringing them back" would be stupid.
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Unread 2 Jan 2009, 03:20   #15
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Re: Re-visiting the steal ship formula

So any ships subverted could only fire when thier own init came along, or fired as soon as subverted?
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Unread 2 Jan 2009, 15:14   #16
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Re: Re-visiting the steal ship formula

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLobster View Post
So any ships subverted could only fire when thier own init came along, or fired as soon as subverted?
They'd fire when their own init came along. So if they'd already fired, they would be 'useless'.

One thing I forgot in the post above was that they were invincible (to prevent people from shooting down their own ships). This meant that the hostile defense was risk free (which was terrible).
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Unread 2 Jan 2009, 18:16   #17
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Re: Re-visiting the steal ship formula

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Originally Posted by Banned View Post
One thing I forgot in the post above was that they were invincible (to prevent people from shooting down their own ships). This meant that the hostile defense was risk free (which was terrible).
This is the only real issue I've come across, and I'm still thinking of a reasonable way to get past it..

Maybe having any ship with unfired shots at their init get a chance?
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