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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 10:37   #51
Fifth_teletubbie
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
Two words for you. Parliamentary majority. I even wrote them in previous post directly after the words you quoted. CAN NOBODY READ ANYMORE? The post that I was replying to said that the Germans voted the Nazis in, ie they voted them into power. This did not happen. If the rest of the parties had so wished they could have formed a government without them. However I believe Von Papen and his cadre of idiots thought they could control Hitler. The rest, as they say, is history.

*sigh*

The original poster did not mention parliamentary majority. YOU brought that into the discussion. No, the NSDAP did not have a parliamentary majority until 11-33. But they WERE the largest party.

In a political system such as the Weimar Republic had, with a great many parties, absolute majority by one party simply does not happen. The fact they had as much as they did is astounding in itself.
The fact that you happen to live in a country with a two-party system doesnt give you a license for ignorance about other political constructions nor the right to be pedantic about them.

If a party wins such an overwhelming victory, it is not realistically possible to keep them out of the government; in fact , the Weimar republic constitution allowed for minority governments if I am not mistaken.

With 47% of the votes, under the Weimar system, the NSDAP WAS democaratically elected to power.
This has been discussed a million times by a million people each of them more knowledgable than you on this subject.
Just face it you're simply wrong on this one.
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 11:17   #52
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Originally posted by wu_trax
if there would be no Norwegians for a hundret years (and thus no state of Norway) there would be no such right.
yes, there was a state of israel 2000 years ago, but there wasnt for more than 1000 years. it is not the same state, so i dont see the point in mentioning it.
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 11:45   #53
Marilyn Manson
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Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
I don't think I ever said anything realting to whether or not the US was 'responsible' (a word that i was more or less attacking throughout)
Well, you appeared to be settling yourself down for a smug onlooking with regards to the state of the world, which to me didn't seem all that appropriate considering the context.

Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
Develop good institutions and put good leaders in charge.
An individudal, or even a group of individuals can't do this in an autocratic situation.

Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
If I'm remembering right, the Germans did vote the nazi party in. Saying that the people aren't responsible for who the people vote for seems a tad off to me.
Completely irrelevant to the point, which is how the indivudal realistically responds to dictatorship, and how we should respond to them.

Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
It's worth a shot, no?
heh. See above.

Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
'Personally' I am as deeply against "this sort of selfish, blinkered short-termism" (well-phrased that).
Good.

Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
But my point is that depending on other countries not to adopt "selfish, blinkered short-termism" as their foreign policy is a fairly piss-poor long term strategy.
That wasn't terribly ambiguous.

And it should be irrelevant as to whathever other countries do. If you have the relative power, then you can change things; for the better, hopefully.

The idea that the interantional order is somehow bound by universal rules of conflict is the thing that perpetuates such rules.
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 12:07   #54
Marilyn Manson
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
Richer than arbitrarily drawing the line at 50 years--about the time your own country stopped being a major operator?
Eh? How was I 'arbitraily drawing the line'? I was only talking about The US' involvement, as part of the wider whole.

Almost all western countries have a significant hand in the state of the world today, and The UK is no exception. I presume you didn't read my inital post otherwise you would have be aware of my position on this.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
I think one could argue that Britian is far more responsible for the present-day problems in the mideast than the US--creating countries and kings out of whole cloth, encouraging a Jewish homeland, etc.[/
Absolutely.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
But that's pretty much all that most of the world was willing to do for the Iraqis though, wasn't it?[/
Well, obviously, states have to decide for themselves how best to assist in the growth of a more liberal international order; I'm not really sure the extent to which the main actors, if any in The Iraq debacle were motivated by that.

It is of course true that there are other ways to secure the toppling of dictatorships than purely military means. Activity can be contructive as well as destructive.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
Well, it worked for us. Perhaps we were oppressed by incompetents, but still, it wasn't easy.[/
Not terribly relevant. When you are an outpost of Empire vying for some measure of independance/autonomy, it is much easier to gain that than if you are simply living in a nation-state controlled by an autocratic government; in one the opression of the subject peoples is not directly linked to the continuance of the government itself, in the other, it is, hence differering levels of energy, recoureces, etc, put into the two.

That's before we go into the likelihood of even imperial outposts being successful in their quest for self-control. Look at The Indian Mutiny, for example.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
In any case, the US doesn't have the resources to depose all the evil dictators in the world. And if we don't, who else is going to step up to the plate? I don't see very many countries wanting to engage in regime changes.[/
Again, dictatorship can be tackled indirectly, and even reactively.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
I profoundly disagree. Altruism isn't a basis for foreign policy.
You couldn't run a good community based on people only acting so that they could secure things for themselves, so why should you expect a a good intrenational situation to be based on it?

Mutual-co-operation is the only real produtcive basis for international relations, and almost certainly the only pragmatic basis for it, despite all the supposed 'realism' of that doctrine of the same name.


P.S, sorry if some or none of this makes sense, as my girlfriend is getting pissed with me being on here, so I have to type pretty fast.

Last edited by Marilyn Manson; 25 Aug 2003 at 14:12.
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 12:20   #55
Dante Hicks
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
Well, I'm all in favor of that. But what actions are making things worse? And which are making them better? How? And for who? And for how long?
I'd list funding Israel as the main thing here. It's kind of like subsidising a nationalised industry. The management can keep on going making frankly foolish decisions with the illusion they're sustainable, when they are not.

Oh, and Iraq may be better in a years time to how it was two years ago. But I find this a curious comparison. If I bomb your house for ten years and put sanctions on it, and then come in and overthrow your dictatorial regime - ending the bombing and sanctions, will your wife and children thank me for my benevolence if their standard of living is better the month after?

Last edited by Dante Hicks; 25 Aug 2003 at 12:33.
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 13:40   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nusselt
just in case any of you rather dense people was wondering i didnt actually mean the world hates the US, i was just trying to make a point of how stupid the original and some of the subsequent statements were by doing a role reversal thing. I realise that sarcasm doesnt work well on the internet, but i mean really, mr acropolis i expected at least you to pick up on it
hey that's the nicest thing anyone's ever said about me !

anyhoo, i saw that point from your post, but i also saw your post as a good lead in for mine in which i wanted to tweak the topic of the thread just a little.
Quote:
Originally posted by Rommel
Care to explain what you mean by "institutions"?
i would love to (gq etc)

institutions like an independent judiciary, whose sole power is to knock down laws which restrict freedom.

like fair elections, which make leaders responsible to the people

like a free press, which can investigate government corruption etc.

like the "checks and balances" crap, which basically boils down to limited powers for any person group of people

most importantly, a well-informed public. we could really use one of those.

so far, every one of these except maybe the last has created difficulties for the bush administration. YOU GO INSTITUTIONS! YOU BAD!
Quote:
Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
Well, you appeared to be settling yourself down for a smug onlooking with regards to the state of the world, which to me didn't seem all that appropriate considering the context.
the 'smug' was my imitation of the US attitude; i specifically pointed out where i personally agree with the US (other countries have crap leadership and crap institutions).
Quote:
Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
You couldn't run a good community based on people only acting so that they could secure things for themselves, so why should you expect a a good intrenational situation to be based on it?

Mutual-co-operation is the only real produtcive basis for international relations, and almost certainly the only pragmatic basis for it, despite all the supposed 'realism' of that doctrine of the same name.
you are so not randian
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 14:16   #57
Marilyn Manson
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Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
you are so not randian
Thank god.

P.S, if I was, I would be politically relevant, and call myself a 'Thatcherite' or a 'Neo-Conservative.'



Probably.
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 14:19   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis


most importantly, a well-informed public. we could really use one of those.

so far, every one of these except maybe the last has created difficulties for the bush administration.
So you'd say that you're reliably informed as to what your country is doing, planning to do and going to do? If so, i'd like to say that you live in some sort of disillusioned (spelling) world. We've already had the talks on why Bush was so adamant to go to war with Iraq so i won't bring it up again.

In my opinion, you've only tended to have "interests" in countries that you can gain something from or if they're a "threat", real or not. Afghanistan and bin Laden, Iraq, North Korea briefly since they have nuclear weapons. You made the Balkans worse with your "help" and you left the Israel/Palestine conflict alone for a long time. You claim to be the world's policemen so why did you leave that alone for so long? I believe you or some other American said that in a previous post in this thread.
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 14:47   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fifth_teletubbie
*sigh*

The original poster did not mention parliamentary majority. YOU brought that into the discussion. No, the NSDAP did not have a parliamentary majority until 11-33. But they WERE the largest party.

In a political system such as the Weimar Republic had, with a great many parties, absolute majority by one party simply does not happen. The fact they had as much as they did is astounding in itself.
The fact that you happen to live in a country with a two-party system doesnt give you a license for ignorance about other political constructions nor the right to be pedantic about them.

If a party wins such an overwhelming victory, it is not realistically possible to keep them out of the government; in fact , the Weimar republic constitution allowed for minority governments if I am not mistaken.

With 47% of the votes, under the Weimar system, the NSDAP WAS democaratically elected to power.
This has been discussed a million times by a million people each of them more knowledgable than you on this subject.
Just face it you're simply wrong on this one.


Look, seriously, I don't give a flying **** if every single professor on this planet can't add. 47 over 100 is not half and never will be. I don't live in a country with a two party system either. There hasn't been a single party majority here since 1972. The Weimar republic constitution allowed for minority governments but they still couldn't do anything unless they obtained the requisite number of votes in parliament. The point was made that the Germans voted the Nazi party into power. To blame them for this when a simple majority did not vote for them actually goes beyond the realms of delusion into a place with magical bunny rabbits.



PS If you don't think you've convinced me or argued your case well can you at least not bring up the "lots of clever people know this and you're clearly wrong" argument.




PPS I just went and looked up the actual statistics. Assuming we're going to call the July 1932 elections the last proper ones then the Nazi party won 35% of the seats in the Reichstag. Forgot about the November 1932 elections in which the number of seats they held actually dropped.
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Last edited by JonnyBGood; 25 Aug 2003 at 14:59.
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 14:53   #60
Fifth_teletubbie
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
Look, seriously, I don't give a flying **** if every single professor on this planet can't add. 47 over 100 is not half and never will be. I don't live in a country with a two party system either. There hasn't been a single party majority here since 1972. The Weimar republic constitution allowed for minority governments but they still couldn't do anything unless they obtained the requisite number of votes in parliament. The point was made that the Germans voted the Nazi party into power. To blame them for this when a simple majority did not vote for them actually goes beyond the realms of delusion into a place with magical bunny rabbits.



PS If you don't think you've convinced me or argued your case well can you at least not bring up the "lots of clever people know this and you're clearly wrong" argument.
Alas.

From some previous statements I thought you were worth discussing with, but unfortunately I was wrong.
Like I tried to explain, a flat majority isnt required to vote a party into power. If you cannot grasp that, then just go sit in a corner and feel superior if it makes you happy.
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 14:58   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fifth_teletubbie
Alas.

From some previous statements I thought you were worth discussing with, but unfortunately I was wrong.
Like I tried to explain, a flat majority isnt required to vote a party into power. If you cannot grasp that, then just go sit in a corner and feel superior if it makes you happy.

They weren't voted into power though. I'm actually bewildered here by how you can assume they were. In a democracy laws are not decided upon by the largest minority. I'm actually reading the election results here and I still have no clue what you're talking about. Perhaps I've failed to understand what your point was though so if you could re-iterate for my benefit I'd be most glad.
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 15:28   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
They weren't voted into power though. I'm actually bewildered here by how you can assume they were. In a democracy laws are not decided upon by the largest minority. I'm actually reading the election results here and I still have no clue what you're talking about. Perhaps I've failed to understand what your point was though so if you could re-iterate for my benefit I'd be most glad.
It's simple. You reason from a position that if all other parties had combined, the NSDAP wouldnt have gotten into government. And hence, that 44% since it is not an absolute majority did not give the NSDAP 'power'.
However, you have to remember that the NSDAP in 1933 wasnt stained as it is now by historic events.
The NSDAP would have been a preferable partner to many parties in the Reichstag when compared to , say, the communists.
What I am saying is that there was no way in hell that the NSDAP would not rule after gaining 44% of the votes*. Even IF they could have found no partner for the remaining 7% (realistically, they had several options for this, most notably the 8% from the Nationalists), then they could have formed a minority government and found support from different groups for separate issues. 44% is easily enough to do so, especially when you do not shy away from a little coercion and intimidation, and a great deal of populism.

Also, whereas we keep focussing on the march elections, the 99% result in november '33 was obviously fake, but research shows that, given 'fair' elections, the probable result still would have been a clear majority for the NSDAP. More along the lines of 60% rather than 99%, but still. Of course we'll never know this for certain.


PS.: I wasnt alluding to a random set of people before; a number of books have appeared regarding the legality of Hitlers ascent to power, by notable historians. The issue there is usually more about if Hitler 'legally' became president as well as chancellor upon Hindenburg's death.


*: In my own country, a newly formed party recently gained something like 17% of the votes in its first election. Even though it was 'only' 17% (making them the 2nd party), and NONE of the existing parties were particularly eager to work with them up front, all agreed that a coalition _without_ this party was nearly unthinkable, since that would have meant the voters would not be taken seriously.
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 15:59   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fifth_teletubbie
It's simple. You reason from a position that if all other parties had combined, the NSDAP wouldnt have gotten into government. And hence, that 44% since it is not an absolute majority did not give the NSDAP 'power'.
However, you have to remember that the NSDAP in 1933 wasnt stained as it is now by historic events.
The NSDAP would have been a preferable partner to many parties in the Reichstag when compared to , say, the communists.
What I am saying is that there was no way in hell that the NSDAP would not rule after gaining 44% of the votes*. Even IF they could have found no partner for the remaining 7% (realistically, they had several options for this, most notably the 8% from the Nationalists), then they could have formed a minority government and found support from different groups for separate issues. 44% is easily enough to do so, especially when you do not shy away from a little coercion and intimidation, and a great deal of populism.

I think I see what the problem is here. You're focusing on the March '33 elections whereas I was talking about the july and november 1932 ones. I'm a bit confused why though, the march '33 elections were far from fair. The reichstag fire, the imprisonment of 4000 communist officials and party members, the Decree for the protection of People and State (democratic elections in a state where the current government can suspend all citizen's rights?) and finally Ernst Rohm and the SA and their perfectly legal methods of campaigning. But I would agree that at this point it was unreasonable, if not impossible, to set up a government without the Nazis. I merely assumed we weren't including such a farcical election under the heading "fair".

Quote:
Also, whereas we keep focussing on the march elections, the 99% result in november '33 was obviously fake, but research shows that, given 'fair' elections, the probable result still would have been a clear majority for the NSDAP. More along the lines of 60% rather than 99%, but still. Of course we'll never know this for certain.
I'll admit to being ignorant on this research but to be honest you still cannot rely on this. There were massive campaigns of violence, terror and intimidation by first the SA and then the SS as well as propaganda on an illegal and intrusive scale. If we're discussing semantics though a fine example would be how many seats would a party which outlawed all other political parties have gained in an election if the election was fair.


Quote:
PS.: I wasnt alluding to a random set of people before; a number of books have appeared regarding the legality of Hitlers ascent to power, by notable historians. The issue there is usually more about if Hitler 'legally' became president as well as chancellor upon Hindenburg's death.
I didn't assume you were. I just dislike arguments along those lines, it reminds me of a few utterly daft philosophical essays I've read. As for the merging of the offices of Chancellor and President I'd have to say it was rather on the illegal side. I mean come on the excuse given to the general population was that von Hindenburg was so great it'd be an insult to have anyone assume the position. 96% voted to abolish the title of president in a plebiscite though. It's rather difficult to tell what precisely people would have done when it's clear the entire system was being manipulated.


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*: In my own country, a newly formed party recently gained something like 17% of the votes in its first election. Even though it was 'only' 17% (making them the 2nd party), and NONE of the existing parties were particularly eager to work with them up front, all agreed that a coalition _without_ this party was nearly unthinkable, since that would have meant the voters would not be taken seriously.
I'm unsure what the usual percentages are in your country but in Ireland there are 6 parties with a reasonable percentage of the vote (ie over 2% of the vote) extremely similar to the Weimar republic at this time. Here a party received 23% of the votes and weren't included in the government. Previous election they received 33% (just shy of the percentage of the Nazi party in the July 32 election) and weren't included in the government. Strange old world eh.
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 16:38   #64
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i dont want to interupt your conversation, but didnt hitler use his SA to convice some members of other parties to vote in his favour?
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 16:40   #65
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Originally posted by wu_trax
i dont want to interupt your conversation, but didnt hitler use his SA to convice some members of other parties to vote in his favour?
Mentioned that

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the march '33 elections were far from fair. The reichstag fire, the imprisonment of 4000 communist officials and party members, the Decree for the protection of People and State (democratic elections in a state where the current government can suspend all citizen's rights?) and finally Ernst Rohm and the SA and their perfectly legal methods of campaigning. But I would agree that at this point it was unreasonable, if not impossible, to set up a government without the Nazis. I merely assumed we weren't including such a farcical election under the heading "fair".

I didn't bother going into detail as he sounds like he knows what he's talking about.
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 20:32   #66
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Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I'd list funding Israel as the main thing here. It's kind of like subsidising a nationalised industry. The management can keep on going making frankly foolish decisions with the illusion they're sustainable, when they are not.
To the extent that's true, then isn't it true for the Palestinians as well? The Palestinian Authority currently receives about $1B a year in aid from EU and Arab donors--much of it with little or no accounting of where it's spent. If US aid is the only thing protecting Sharon from the consequences of his own stupidity then whose aid do you think is protecting Arafat from the consequences of his?

Calling on the US to stop funding Israel while others are funding the Palestinians strikes me as just a tad bit partisan.

Reducing or eliminating US aid to Israel might improve our "image" in various parts of the world--but I am under no illusions that it would result in a "fairer" or "better" settlement. Instead, it would simply make it possible for other people's money to direct the outcome. Specifically, and in all likelyhood, those who are pro-Palestinian.
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Oh, and Iraq may be better in a years time to how it was two years ago. But I find this a curious comparison. If I bomb your house for ten years and put sanctions on it, and then come in and overthrow your dictatorial regime - ending the bombing and sanctions, will your wife and children thank me for my benevolence if their standard of living is better the month after?
I scarcely know where to begin with that, except to say that that's either a really bad analogy or else your view of the war, the sanctions and the aftermath is profoundly different from mine.
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 21:33   #67
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Hands up who really gives a **** if Israel and the Palistinians blow the crap out of each other

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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 21:45   #68
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Originally posted by Vaio
Hands up who really gives a **** if Israel and the Palistinians blow the crap out of each other

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fuel prices would double :/
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 21:47   #69
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Originally posted by Vaio
Hands up who really gives a **** if Israel and the Palistinians blow the crap out of each other

Vaio
me! the fallout would probably hit Hawaii, and then where would I vacation?
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 21:49   #70
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me! the fallout would probably hit Hawaii, and then where would I vacation?
come here!
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 23:05   #71
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Originally posted by acropolis
the US doesn't hate the world. We look on most of the world with a sort of a smug (arrogant) condescension. We see most of the (non-western) countries in the world as places with horrible horrible institutions and horrible horrible leadership.

And I think that clearly we are right about that part.

'Hatred' is simply bad business. No country has ever improved its standard of living etc. while blaming its problems on someone else. Whether or not the US is to blame for their troubles, as long as they blame us those problems will never get solved. Sorry.

You could claim that the US could change its policies, enabling those countries to help themselves. But that's naivete talking. What does the US have to gain by changing its policies? Not a whole lot. "What about 9/11" being the obvious rebuttal; but that's a good case in point.

How did we respond to 9/11? By blaming Arab countries and telling them to change? No. We changed. How our airline industry works, how our national security is aranged, etc. Sure, we invaded Afghanistan and wiped out their government, but if you look at the dollar figures you'll see that that was really an afterthought. Afghanistan costed a few billion, domestic adjustments have (/will) cost more by orders of magnitude.

And what the **** is jonny talking about with 'the romans attacked first'?

PS: the middle east was very pro-american in the early 1950s when the US sided against the UK/France in the whole Egypt deal.
ace post
I might add "North Korea" to your "9/11".
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Unread 25 Aug 2003, 23:13   #72
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Originally posted by Tactitus
To the extent that's true, then isn't it true for the Palestinians as well? The Palestinian Authority currently receives about $1B a year in aid from EU and Arab donors.
The Israeli's are wealthier than the Palesteninans to begin with (which makes funding that side a little different), plus you've got the backlog of funding which I've seen estimated as high as $80bn.

Either way the Israeli total is much higher than $1bn per year. And while a good deal of the EU/etc aid to Palestine may be unaccountable we know that something like $1.8bn to Israel is military based.

Either way, I don't feel the comparison holds particularly well since
the Palestenian authority is not directly attacking Israel. If the Palesteninan Authority is spending the money on guns, I presume their officials are not directly using them at this exact moment. If the money is ending up in the hands of terrorists then yeah obviously I don't support indiscriminate murderers getting money.
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I scarcely know where to begin with that, except to say that that's either a really bad analogy or else your view of the war, the sanctions and the aftermath is profoundly different from mine.
I suspect both is true. I didn't support the sanctions or the inspections (full stop) so therefore saying "The war is preferable to endless sanctions or inspections" is a non-argument for me, since I didn't support either.
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Unread 30 Aug 2003, 22:49   #73
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The Arabs are a pestulance. One that America is the cure for. They will become like us, or they will die. Good riddance.
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Unread 1 Sep 2003, 14:27   #74
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pestulance.
Heh.

Did we ever find out if this chap was the real Mr Brahm?
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Unread 1 Sep 2003, 14:32   #75
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Heh.

Did we ever find out if this chap was the real Mr Brahm?
The real one could spell
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Unread 1 Sep 2003, 14:40   #76
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The real one could spell
To my knowledge, he couldn't, actually.
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