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Unread 7 Mar 2008, 21:33   #51
Mistwraith
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

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Originally Posted by Achilles
It doesn't fix anything. It makes things worse. It actually increases the gap between the haves and the have nots. Who do you think controls the galaxies and ministerial positions in this game? How does having a different stranger to ask for scans help a newbie? All this idea does is make it even easier for established players to get the scans they need with almost no benefit to new players. Why must everyone pigeon-hole this game into the box they personally play it from? I wonder if I can get Internet Myopia added to the DSM 4 as a recognised mental illness.
This isnt a game that works if you dont work as a team, if it was we wouldnt have galaxies, we'd have singular planets.

Yes the newbies would have to work with their gal mates, any newbie that doesnt is bound to give up soon anyway, a planet that isnt working within any group, giving and recieving will get bored and will fail miserably, if that were not true then a planet that worked singularly would have won the round by now.
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Unread 7 Mar 2008, 22:25   #52
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Oh no no no. First of all, stop comparing planets with galaxies, it's stupid. Let's compare planets with planets. Some planets hang out on irc and have loads of friends. Some of those friends are scanners and do scans for them. Now, with your idea, they have even one more person to rely on. Awesome.

HOWEVER (I said that big to make sure you notice it) other planets have never played Planetarion before. They don't know ANYTHING (as above) about Planetarion. They struggle through the planet building stuff and researches for ships because, let's face it, a chimp could do that. They would be doing well if they figured out by now how roiders work, or what ship classes are. Are you seriously ****ing telling me that if they want scans to attack they need to log onto irc and speak to the scan minister before and during every launch?

All they need is to be able to log on, get a basic unit of a target, get a scan of it before they land and have a chance to learn the game. If you can't see that then I'm sorry but you are a fool.
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Unread 7 Mar 2008, 22:35   #53
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

I dont see why they would need to log into irc, cant it be done by message or over the forums? I have been in gals where we give ppl who cant be on IRC scans over the forums... I dont see why it cant work.

Does not mean its the best solution though. I agree it is most helpful to those who are active on IRC rather than thse who are not, and it is ppl who are not active on IRC who we need to help with scans.
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Unread 7 Mar 2008, 22:42   #54
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

How often does that happen tho, talk to any newbie and i would say that 9/10 times they will say their mate introduced them to the game, even most older players were introduced to it from friends from somewhere.
The true newbie is a rare sight theese days.

Jolt doesnt do full page ads in newpapers, it advertises on its own sites, gamer sites, gamers tend to know that a game requires interaction with other players on some level.

I havent seen a 14 yr old for many years now, the newbies are older and wiser than your giving them credit for.
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Unread 7 Mar 2008, 23:20   #55
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

It's obvious you didn't read all my earlier posts, please do. The people involved weren't stupid or young and grasped perfectly what was needed to be able to attack. It wasn't worth the effort and I don't blame them. If I had to wait a week to attack I wouldn't play either.
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Unread 7 Mar 2008, 23:44   #56
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
If I had to wait a week to attack I wouldn't play either.
This here is the core of why there are so few genuinely new players that get to the point they feel up to joining an alliance. Any solution that does not address this issue is not a solution at all.
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 00:55   #57
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

I've been playing solo, or almost always alliance-less for like 20 Rounds now.. I've been in decent ones here or now, and in a couple of alliances ran by hilarious kids that I just can't take serious as the old guy I am..

Generally it gets more and more annoying the more Benefits you're giving to alliances ofc..
My Round starts like a Week later, after I have some Scans at least, and Amps.. Then I spend 10-thousands a day scanning to find a Target
By this Time, I ofc haven't researched deeper mining and later asteroid mining, plus I don't have many finance centers or dists, cause I need some Amps..

So allover, I wouldn't mind at least a very slight improvement for non-alliance players..

I personally have no clue how new Players would find just a bit of Fun starting this Game.. Scans sure do their part there
Even if they join some lousy alliance, it's not said that they'll always get what it takes there..
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 03:46   #58
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

This guy here says it better than I ever could. Please listen to what he is saying.
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 03:51   #59
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Mistwraith idea is not as bad as mine + it gives something to do to a Minister (logically the MoW). New players can be alliance less but nobody is galaxy less, and I too believe the first step in playing PA is by working with your gal. I have seen noobs communicating over forums and PA mails without ever coming to IRC and guess what... it works too.

What makes things difficult for new players is that they're asked to use external tools just to play for the game they signed in.
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 09:05   #60
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

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Originally Posted by Achilles
It's obvious you didn't read all my earlier posts, please do. The people involved weren't stupid or young and grasped perfectly what was needed to be able to attack. It wasn't worth the effort and I don't blame them. If I had to wait a week to attack I wouldn't play either.
I'm supporting my idea, as Makhill says, current tools allow you to fairly easily communicate with the group your put with (your galaxy) if you want to make the effort to do so, forum, ingame mail and the com unit.
If the galaxy supports their newbies, then the newbies will reciprocate that support, i'm not saying that some galaxies players take one look at their new planet, decide its too small and move it on, but thosse are the ones that put no investment in, and get no interest out because of it.

I'm not saying that things dont need to change, to allow the solo player a better stab at the game, but they are not entirely solo, the game mechanics put them with a group.

How to what will effectively push a newbie into interacting with its galaxy is a different subject altogether, but maybe making scans something you can get there, would force the issue a bit more.

But as i said above my point about galaxies and group mechanics within the game itself are the support for my idea about scans, if one doesnt support the other then i readily admit both will fail.

If a player wants a planet that is capable of suceeding without interacting with their galaxy then they are playing the wrong game.
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 11:12   #61
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

keep scans they way they are.. as xan you need the advantage of being cloaked in the beginning..
making the scan tech tree faster or even remove it would only make this game worse..
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 11:28   #62
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Why wouldn't you be cloaked? Why would the scan tree be shorter? Are you worried everyone will know how many pods you have or something?
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 11:34   #63
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith
If the galaxy supports their newbies, then the newbies will reciprocate that support
dont bet on it, my galaxy tried to get our newbies to use the forums/pa mail for organising defence, getting scans, advice etc and most of them just made the mandatory hello post that I had as our condition for staying in the gal and then nothing was ever heard of them again!

so it would definatly be best if there was some solution that would alow solo playing to be practical, however there also needs to be something to encourage interaction with the galaxy. If members of the galaxy can get scans of the MoW it would need to be made pointed out on the scans page that this is possible so as to prompt them to ask. Having a big message on overview + welcome messages does not seem to be enough to encourage interaction
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 11:48   #64
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistwraith
How to what will effectively push a newbie into interacting with its galaxy is a different subject altogether, but maybe making scans something you can get there, would force the issue a bit more.

If a player wants a planet that is capable of suceeding without interacting with their galaxy then they are playing the wrong game.
Why exactly do you think forcing a certain playstyle upon (new) players is a good thing? By limiting the options players have to compete, you simply limit the growth possibilities of the game. At some point you have to accept that not everyone likes to play the way you like (them) to play. And with the current state of the game, i'd say any playing planet is a step forward. More playing planets means more targets and (potentially) more interesting rounds.

Quite a few people like to figure things out on their own before they decide something is worth their time. By not given them the ability to play the game by themselves, they won't even bother to continue playing. There is a good change alot of these players would eventually form groups to help eachother, just the way it happened in the first rounds of PA when everyone was new.
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 14:10   #65
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

They should just give scans by unlocking them according to certain timeframe, blind attacks at the start have always been the rush in pa addiction. As it gives you clear boost over others as risk is high and so is reward if you can keep the roids u stole from highly ranked players.

Ofc if you want a clear chance to finish in top ranks, you can do the less obvious bashing small players, or gathering salvage/roids/certain type of ships from your extra planets during this period), after that you only need to play politics and yer set for the top spots in the round.

Mates doing scans... Shared scan planets or personal scan planets has always been in planetarion and will be, as any dedicated person who actually wants to win seriously has them in their disposal, you can't trust people being always online doing your counter-attack scans asap or ziljon pre-attack scans...

Anyways basicly scan tree is just obstacle between organised/pre-planning players and the normal people.... It doesn't matter at all if your in the 1st gategory, but it affects a lot to those normal players.
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 14:29   #66
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

I did not do any attacks first week still ended t100, the first week is not so critical as some ppl take it to be.
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 15:12   #67
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

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I did not do any attacks first week still ended t100, the first week is not so critical as some ppl take it to be.
True it's not that important these days in pa. Atleast to me my first attacks when I actually played pa/pia decided my rank pretty much, after that it was just politics as news scans pretty much made sure u stayed safe and u where enough big to hit multiple targets of decent size thus in long round made yourself a self fulfilling prophecy unless your alliance lost or you got marked for fleetcatch.. aka politics. But I still like the blind attacks as it requires some balls to dare to hit top10 gals blind. Thou not sure if that's the case anymore.. hard to say without playing myself.
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 15:50   #68
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

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Originally Posted by booji
so it would definatly be best if there was some solution that would alow solo playing to be practical, however there also needs to be something to encourage interaction with the galaxy. If members of the galaxy can get scans of the MoW it would need to be made pointed out on the scans page that this is possible so as to prompt them to ask. Having a big message on overview + welcome messages does not seem to be enough to encourage interaction
There is already a huge amount of interaction the moment you want to get past the basic level of PA play.

Effective attacks (access to targets and wingmates who overwhelm defence) & effective defence. Being able to scan distwhores.

I like the idea of greater galaxy interaction but I don't think this solution will lead to the best outcome for new players; it'll simply be a source of more scans for the experienced ones.

I really like the concept of starting out with a simply jgp/unit scan, however.

This approach allows new players to try the game. A proportion of them will find out that it's fun and worth signing up to IRC and logging in. A round or two later, we may find we've got a bunch of extra players we wouldn't otherwise have done.
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 16:36   #69
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

New players need to be able to play the game on a basic level before they get further involved. If someone told you there was this spreadsheet based multiplayer game on the internet that you can't even play properly unless you go talk to a load of people on this extra program you have to download or invest weeks of time and cripple your account relatively speaking would you really do it? We don't have great graphics or nifty surface features to play around with. What we need is a simple to use interface that lets people keep playing even if they only login every once in a while because after a while some of those people will become more interested and get involved in the community aspect of the game
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Unread 8 Mar 2008, 22:17   #70
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

You're naturally completely correct JBG, but the suggestion put forth by Achi just gives new planets unitscans and something akin to jgp's, and gets them nowhere in terms of getting other useful scans, most importantly au's. Are new players to be kept forever unknowing as to what xan fleets are made up of? Are they never going to be given newsscans? What exactly is the point of retaining scan-planets in this game? Yes, you're right, if we don't give people unitscans straight from tickstart, they might have to log in once a day to set new research in order to get their scantechs in a model that kept the current structure of scantechs yet allow simlutanious multiple teching, they might potentially even lose a few ticks(the horror!), but I hardly think that's the same as gimping them, and it would also go a far way towards getting also the normal players in alliances access to plenty of scans even if the alliance scanners aren't active at that very moment. Heck, let's face it, unless you're active enough to log in more than once a day(i.e. active enough to set your next research once a day), you're not going to be around to check if your attacks get defence either, so in truth all your solution for the newbies requires is a unitscan tech. But hey, that's allready at the very bottom of the pile! So all's fine then, right? No need to change anything, no need to address the real issue of scan-planets! No, none at all.
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Unread 9 Mar 2008, 18:51   #71
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

So the general opinion is in favour of making changes to the scantree to help players without good access to scans, be it new or current players. In other words, make the game actually playable for them.

Can someone from the coding team decide on the issue or gather a few people who undertand the game (JGD, Sun_tzu, Gate and Achilles in this thread) to decide the changes for them? This would give them enough time for coding and dicusssion.
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Unread 9 Mar 2008, 23:58   #72
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by paolo
Can someone from the coding team decide on the issue or gather a few people who undertand the game (JGD, Sun_tzu, Gate and Achilles in this thread) to decide the changes for them? This would give them enough time for coding and dicusssion.
Some input from PAteam would definitely be appreciated.

The only real pitfall I currently see is Sun Tzu's comment on AUs. Xands would be given a greater advantage...

Possible solutions for this need to be worked out. Allowing cloaked stuff to apper in unit scans but maintaining its other advantages, or just ignoring the issue are possible solutions.

SUGGESTED NEW TREE:
Defence Detection - A jgp that can only be done at eta4 or less and only displays defending ships on your eta
Unit Scan - same as current AU, displays cloaked ships

Available from tick start.

Planet, Surface, Tech, News, Jgp, Incoming researchable. Letters used: D U P S T N J I

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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 00:51   #73
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
You're naturally completely correct JBG, but the suggestion put forth by Achi just gives new planets unitscans and something akin to jgp's, and gets them nowhere in terms of getting other useful scans, most importantly au's. Are new players to be kept forever unknowing as to what xan fleets are made up of? Are they never going to be given newsscans?
We could change units so they show xan fleets in the same way. The main bonuses of xan "cloak" are the fact your fleets don't show up when attacking.

Quote:
What exactly is the point of retaining scan-planets in this game?
I think dist-whores are a valid addition to the game and I haven't heard of an acceptable counter-balance other than scan planets.

Quote:
Yes, you're right, if we don't give people unitscans straight from tickstart, they might have to log in once a day to set new research in order to get their scantechs in a model that kept the current structure of scantechs yet allow simlutanious multiple teching, they might potentially even lose a few ticks(the horror!), but I hardly think that's the same as gimping them, and it would also go a far way towards getting also the normal players in alliances access to plenty of scans even if the alliance scanners aren't active at that very moment. Heck, let's face it, unless you're active enough to log in more than once a day(i.e. active enough to set your next research once a day), you're not going to be around to check if your attacks get defence either, so in truth all your solution for the newbies requires is a unitscan tech. But hey, that's allready at the very bottom of the pile! So all's fine then, right? No need to change anything, no need to address the real issue of scan-planets! No, none at all.
People don't want to invest lots of time basically entering numbers into a spreadsheet just so they can get to the "fun" part of the game. I think the real issue of scan planets is dramatically overrated. Most scanners are just players who aren't interested in playing "normal" planets. New players don't start off at "pa" levels of activity. They have to get interested in the first place to get there.
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 09:30   #74
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Some input from PAteam would definitely be appreciated.

The only real pitfall I currently see is Sun Tzu's comment on AUs. Xands would be given a greater advantage...

Possible solutions for this need to be worked out. Allowing cloaked stuff to apper in unit scans but maintaining its other advantages, or just ignoring the issue are possible solutions.

SUGGESTED NEW TREE:
Defence Detection - A jgp that can only be done at eta4 or less and only displays defending ships on your eta
Unit Scan - same as current AU, displays cloaked ships

Available from tick start.

Planet, Surface, Tech, News, Jgp, Incoming researchable. Letters used: D U P S T N J I

Amps and Dists remain as-are. Quest to build security centre replaced with quest to build an Amplifier.
If you're going to take away xan's cloaking advantage you might aswell just give them extra armor and call them terran 2...

Xan is supposed to sacrifice armor for initiative and cloaking, last round we allready had other races with higher armor and faster initiative and if we're going to remove their cloaking advantage then we might aswell beef them up with armor or remove them since they're obsolete.
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 10:42   #75
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
If you're going to take away xan's cloaking advantage you might aswell just give them extra armor and call them terran 2...
.
The other advantages of cloaking will remain intact.
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 10:45   #76
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
If you're going to take away xan's cloaking advantage you might aswell just give them extra armor and call them terran 2...

Xan is supposed to sacrifice armor for initiative and cloaking, last round we allready had other races with higher armor and faster initiative and if we're going to remove their cloaking advantage then we might aswell beef them up with armor or remove them since they're obsolete.
It's about the concept, not the bad stats. If it's really a problem, connect the scan tree to quests and make sure the AU quest can only be done in tick 120 or so. Why 120 ticks? The current tree is 29200 research points long.

base_output *(1+(%research_labs + population bonus + government bonus)/100)

For a cath that is 120*((1+(20+50+30)/100)= 240 per tick

29200/240= 121,667 ticks.

The quests keep everybody occupied, explains the game to the new players and introduces the scans gradually to the game. Then game mechanics won't change at all and everybody's happy, right?

I know some changes to this game don'tt always go as planned, but this (the change in scan tree to cater for the less active players) is a good and innovative idea. The game needs this change.
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 11:02   #77
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
The other advantages of cloaking will remain intact.
What other advantages?
That only pods show up as inc? I'm sorry but that alone can hardly justify having shit armor.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of this idea (if you read the entire thread you'll obviously see that I support this idea 100%) but we need to keep the consequences in mind.
Making Xan work with everybody having scans will mean that they will need to get stronger since their cloaking advantage will be gone.
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 11:30   #78
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
What other advantages?
That only pods show up as inc? I'm sorry but that alone can hardly justify having shit armor.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of this idea (if you read the entire thread you'll obviously see that I support this idea 100%) but we need to keep the consequences in mind.
Making Xan work with everybody having scans will mean that they will need to get stronger since their cloaking advantage will be gone.
The majority of attacks are done under teh auspices of an alliance. Who get AUs pretty swiftly anyway. As a xand this round, I started off in an awful score galaxy (as you know) and the moments my dists got SKd, I got incs every night for about 9 days.

Maybe a small strengthening of xand will be needed, but the only-pods-and-sks-showing-up-as-inc is a massive advantage. The faking opportunities in both attack and defence are phenominal and a huge advantage. Needing AUs is comparitively minor.

Besides which, xand stats were pretty decent this round minus the ease of stopping their att fleets (which was also true for terrans and CR). Admittedly, this is because cath were shit so you couldn't often get roided by them, but xand have done well pre-cloak with similar armour/dmg levels. Slight tweaking should be all that's needed.

Ofc, this removing AU is only one route which could be followed, if someone comes up with a better one then feel free to post it.
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 12:29   #79
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

I don't really see any serious objections to removing AUs (Veedeejem!'s reasons are invalid in my eyes), so here's me posting in support of Gate's new scan tree suggestion.
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 13:41   #80
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Actually, I'll admit that i missread gate's post.
If fleetscan (or as he calls it Incoming) is the last scan research to be done than I take back a big portion of my previous posts. Though I still believe xan should get a bit tougher but that's a stats discussion, not on this topic.
What I read (blame tiredness) was that all scans were availible from tickstart and only incoming was researchable.

So I continue to support this idea, like I have been doing all along
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 14:20   #81
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

There's currently a 20% margin of error in unit scans. I think this is great as when unit scans are available early on, it forces people to put a bit of thought into their fleets, and it doesn't just hand them information.

I propose keep both unit and adv. unit as they are - but add cloaked ships to the original unit scan too.

The 20% margin of error makes the round interesting early on, but accuracy is required when that 20% can make a far bigger impact on your round? (i.e. it shows 80k Dragons when there's actually 100k).

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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 15:01   #82
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
There's currently a 20% margin of error in unit scans. I think this is great as when unit scans are available early on, it forces people to put a bit of thought into their fleets, and it doesn't just hand them information.

I propose keep both unit and adv. unit as they are - but add cloaked ships to the original unit scan too.

The 20% margin of error makes the round interesting early on, but accuracy is required when that 20% can make a far bigger impact on your round? (i.e. it shows 80k Dragons when there's actually 100k).
Good idea Kenny.

I really wish we could get some input from pa-team in this thread btw, as so far almost everybody has agreed to the basic suggestion.
I think this is a feature that would make the game more playable for new players and solo players.
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 16:16   #83
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Kenny's idea is also a good one. AUs could probably take the space of the current Unit scan in the tree, to represent its decreased relative value.

That would make it:

Start off with D U

Research: P S T A N J I (possibly swapping jumpgate and news)
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 18:55   #84
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

I spoke with Appocco a few days ago about this and he said it wasn't a priority but was something he might look at in the future. If you guys want him to move on it pm him and let him know as he indicated to me he wasn't actively following this thread at all.
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 19:02   #85
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
If you're going to take away xan's cloaking advantage you might aswell just give them extra armor and call them terran 2...

Xan is supposed to sacrifice armor for initiative and cloaking, last round we allready had other races with higher armor and faster initiative and if we're going to remove their cloaking advantage then we might aswell beef them up with armor or remove them since they're obsolete.
Xan should have high damage, low armour and early initiative (to make use of the damage). The type of cloaking they have is irrelevant really, except in terms of balance.
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Unread 10 Mar 2008, 19:44   #86
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Xan should have high damage, low armour and early initiative (to make use of the damage). The type of cloaking they have is irrelevant really, except in terms of balance.
That's almost exactly what i meant in my post. I don't know if you played last round but if you did you would have seen that alot of races had defships against xan that actually had an init advantage over xan. So bye bye early initiative...
If we remove the cloaking they have then basicly they're a shit version of terran that has high damage but gets shot before they have a chance to fire and can't count on cloaking to pull of fakes.
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Unread 17 Mar 2008, 10:20   #87
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Re: Remove the scan tech tree

Just edit the techtree to scans to be lower... for the vital scans up to basic, unit and news scan.

So everyone willing can research them without losing their own game play totally and allow scanning towards everyone without much more amps or blockers or something.

Military and jpg scans and such could have a higher produce time to keep the cloaked race usefull.
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