Planetarion Forums

Remy · 18 Jul 2006, 15:41

Another thread about this? YES !

Im gonna say it right away: I think exile ruins the game the way it is used at the moment.

Let me supply some data:

this round, there were 8.3 exiles on average per tick, not including the first 80 ticks, nor the shuffle, nor deletions and signups.

thats about 1440 exiles

i dont know how many of those are selfexiles of course.

R17 - 4799
R16 - unknown (acers deleted half arbiter :P)
R15 - 7699
R14 - 6562

The drop in r17 is because the time between exiles is forced to be a minimum period.

So, why is this bad?

- The hardcore players don't give ANY chance to new players to try and learn.
- The hardcore players keep exiling until they are a galaxy full of hardcore players, creating a large imbalance between galaxies
- Exiling is a way of telling (partly paying) customers that you dont like their way of playing, and that as other paying customer you have influence on the way others play their payed account

Of course i know that some planets only hinder your galaxy, or are spying on you. But imho, this enormous amount of exiles is just ridiculous. I know from experience (as a participant of galaxies wanting to exile players), that just having brackets around your planet name, or needing explaining how IRC works, will get you exiled.

I think that exile should be banned or severely limited. My idea is the following:

- Selfexile is possible, at an increasing cost, and up to a maximum of say 3 times (or anything else thats better)
- Galaxy exile is NOT possible
- Variation on NOT possible: it IS possible, but only every 72 (for example, as long as it is long) ticks AND for enormous cost. A part of the cost involved is donated to the exiled planet, for example 20%, with a maximum). Of course this is open to abuse a bit, but im sure it can be prevented, like alloweing selfexile only 3 times and maybe other limits

This is the ONLY way to try to make the newer /less skilled players ot have some fun too, and not run away from planetarion, because nobody wants them.

And yes, some players who consider themselves hardcore and the REAL community, will abandon Planetarion. Who cares? They are not the material that will keep Planetarion alive, new players WILL however. Of cours esome galaxies will be very bad, and some galaxies will be lucky, but thats not dofferent from how it is now.

No flaims, please stick to real arguments

Phil^ · 18 Jul 2006, 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Remy

And yes, some players who consider themselves hardcore and the REAL community, will abandon Planetarion. Who cares? They are not the material that will keep Planetarion alive, new players WILL however.

Unfortunately given how low planetarions current userbase is, and how few new players are joining (and staying) this is a reckless position imo.
Planetarion cannot afford to lose any players, regardless of how hardcore or otherwise they are.
Insentives would need to be given to the hardcore players to give them a reason to keep playing rather then trapping them in potentially poor galaxies

Remy · 18 Jul 2006, 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil^

Unfortunately given how low planetarions current userbase is, and how few new players are joining (and staying) this is a reckless position imo.
Planetarion cannot afford to lose any players, regardless of how hardcore or otherwise they are.
Insentives would need to be given to the hardcore players to give them a reason to keep playing rather then trapping them in potentially poor galaxies

this is a dangerous way of thinking. This way, hardcore players always get what they want, wether this is good for the game or not. From hiostory, we know that alliances tend to place selfinterest above general game interest. PA team should not let big alliances and hardcore players to hold them hostage.

The mass exiling is such an example of selfinterest above game interest. I daresay that even if old players would leave (they never seem todo that by the way, even though they complain), more newer players would stick around.

Phil^ · 18 Jul 2006, 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Remy

this is a dangerous way of thinking. This way, hardcore players always get what they want, wether this is good for the game or not. From hiostory, we know that alliances tend to place selfinterest above general game interest. PA team should not let big alliances and hardcore players to hold them hostage.

The mass exiling is such an example of selfinterest above game interest. I daresay that even if old players would leave (they never seem todo that by the way, even though they complain), more newer players would stick around.

I agree its a dangerous way to think, but i cant see much alternative.
its a damned if you do and damned if you dont situation with the playerbase - with no easy way out.

Remy · 18 Jul 2006, 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil^

I agree its a dangerous way to think, but i cant see much alternative.
its a damned if you do and damned if you dont situation with the playerbase - with no easy way out.

Of course you are rioght, but i would rather be damned without being held hostage/being blackmailed

Phil^ · 18 Jul 2006, 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Remy

Of course you are rioght, but i would rather be damned without being held hostage/being blackmailed

and i would prefer there to be a game rather then risk its existance

Kargool · 18 Jul 2006, 16:23

Remove buddypacks, and make it totally random galaxies.

jupp · 18 Jul 2006, 17:02

Usually i tend to exile inactive players with the help of the buddypack aswell - but this round we havent exiled a single planet yet (not sure why :P ) and i have to say that if we exiled players our galaxy would probably do better than now.

Most of them are never on IRC and ingal defence is a rare sight. At the beginning of the round we used the galforum a lot to sort out internal things and to answer questions or explain basics, but even there the activity dropped a lot now.

Motivating new players goes mostly hand in hand with sacrificing your own planet rank because you have to use more fleets and resources ingal to help out the new players and show them the benefits and *fun* parts of PA and the community.

PA is costs money and most players want to get the maximum personal gain (high rank) out of each round - hardcore players put a lot of time into this and expect others to pull on the same string - new players are hindering this aim unless they are very active and learn quickly.
A high amount of exiles is just the reasonable outcome of this playing style.

So behind everything we find the question again: which motivation lies behind play PA?

At the moment it seems that we play this game until so few of us are left that it aint worth it anymore to actually play it and you can say : " i was one of the last players of PA - how 1337! "

i agree with remy that the elitist background (rank-wise) of the community slowly destroys it but i dont think that a change in the exile system will actually help there because the amount of new players you might gain you will lose on the other side again in form of hardcore players that are stuck in dead galaxies and just lose interest ...

K-W · 18 Jul 2006, 17:52

I wouldnt be against some added limitations on gal exiling. Weve tried to be patient this round and give people a chance to get more active/learn/prove themselves and as jupp said, this has definately hurt our galaxy score wise and we probably missed out on the best exiles because we waited.

I dont like the rapid-fire exiling, but gal exiling shouldnt be removed or made absurdly difficult.

robban1 · 18 Jul 2006, 18:27

well take a look at c200, all those planets was in someones gal more or less.
would you want them in your gal?

its orange garbage out there and not many of them get online again.

so.. make exiling cheaper for the gals and planets so ppl dont get stuck in crap gals.

neptis arcos · 18 Jul 2006, 19:37

oki agre to the changes to the exil thing as i personaly have been exiled what like 5-6 times just because i canot be on as much as the galixy wants and because thay want expereanced players in thair galixy

this i fined unfair and would like to be given a chance to prove how i can play
(i only started this round)

this is only my opinion

neptis arcos

wielklem · 18 Jul 2006, 21:33

one one hand i agree but on the other i dont as i played pa for around 15 rounds and never ended in a good active gal just an active buddy pack and then there are planets that are only logged in to 3 times a week there for only in the rounds with privite gals did i have a decend gal.

i do think exiling is used now just in the purpose of getting rid of free planets and in that way exiling is bad for the game and getting new players to play

Veedeejem! · 19 Jul 2006, 01:58

I'm beginning to think i'm cursed, always a good bp, never good randoms

took us +30 exiles last round to finally get a decent gal (t25)
(btw, i'm not that exile happy but what are you supposed to do with planets that never get on irc, log in maybe once every week or ppl who don't feel the need to report incs to alliances...)
I'll be happy if a free planet joins my gal that gets on irc and reports incs, hell i'll even try and get somebody to upgrade his account (like i'm doing atm for a galm8)

Monroe · 19 Jul 2006, 03:18

What most of you seem to be missing about Remy's post is that removal of most exiling limits the player skill (and activity) variance in galaxies. This means that on average each galaxy will have an equal number of 'dead' and inactive planets they will have to contend with. This will increase the importance of a good and active buddy pack, not weaken it. So those of you who complain you never get good exiles wouldn't have to complain because on average each galaxy will have the same number of active and inactive planets with a mean standard deviation of about 1.5 planets per ten planets in the galaxy. (For you non math types this means that galaxies will be closer to even). Since exiles will be sevearly limited in Remy's suggestion, rapid or timely exiling won't cause a disproportionate number of the active planets ending up in a very few galaxies. This will mean it will actually be more likely that the most active hard core players who are willing to encourage and not abuse their gal mates will be the most successful, and most likely to do well in the game.

All this having been said, at some level I agree with Phil in that the kind of limitation that Remy suggests has the potential of killing the game due to fallout with the current player base. Much must be risked however for much to be gained and if something isn't done all of us will be spending our time playing other games, or talking about how great rl is.

Makhil · 19 Jul 2006, 03:50

make C200 a playable cluster within which planets can attack each other.
When a planet reaches a certain score/roid number, it is re-added to the normal universe.

GReaper · 19 Jul 2006, 03:59

I don't mind new players, or those who are unable to check their planet constantly. I do however expect the new planet to make an effort, such as a post to the galaxy forum or a quick visit to the IRC channel just to say hello.

Don't just blame the declining playerbase on the exile system though, the game itself is highly unfriendly to any new player.

Cowmando · 19 Jul 2006, 05:16

imo this problem is mainly down to the players and can not really be coded out. I have been the GC of my gal for the past 4 rounds or so and i always feel bad about exileing someone who i have spoken to, this is generally because i have tried to help them them and really think it is possable for every player to pick up the game. It is not hard to pick up the game so long as you are willing to learn, I mean yes you might have to put in 1 really active round to get good at the game (yes i know this involves the old skill over activity agument) but after you find your feet you don't even need to be on 24/7. I really do trey and help may gal and generally my gal suffers (just ask any of my previous gal mate) and only end up with a BP who have decent scores. I must say i have aimed smaller this round and am haveing more fun atm i am currently playing with a top 15 alliance instead of a top 5 one. This ends up being more competative within the alliance (although sadly lacking drunk people to talk to throughoutb the night)

mmm i think i have been drunkanly typing stuff that does not make scense i will either carry on this post or delete it in the morning>

Travler · 19 Jul 2006, 06:38

When I started playing again in R13 I was a free account and very active. I was told to get on IRC or I would be exiled. It turned out for the best as I learned alot that round. Because I was already active they gave me a chance to be a responsive member of the galaxy.

Seems like most exiles are not only free but inactive. I don't want dead weight in my galaxy. Give me a bunch of free, active, talking(IRC) planets anyday.

jt25man · 19 Jul 2006, 09:09

Yes, free accounts that are active don't usually get exiled, it's the ones that come in as new planets and after a day haven't even logged in again that get booted. Most galaxies will boot payed accounts if they're not active, so being free or paid is not really as big of an issue in deciding to exile someone.

zokka · 19 Jul 2006, 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makhil

make C200 a playable cluster within which planets can attack each other.
When a planet reaches a certain score/roid number, it is re-added to the normal universe.

That's the best idea ever makhil, make it so players in c200 can choose to go back into the premiership or stay in division 1. (c200)

I guess at the start of the round there will always be a lot of galaxies exiling players in hope they will get good self exiles

In my current galaxy the ministers exile people who don't have an IRC and are unpaid accounts. I disagree with exiling people just because they are unpaid. If I where new to planetarion, I would not pay till, I knew I would enjoy the game.

In my last galaxy there was this one player he was never on IRC he never responded to our mails you he did attack and defend daily, So we kept him.

In my last galaxy; I had two players who had IRC accounts said they where top 100. They said that they would start attacking soon. But after days of no fleet activity we scanned them and it was clear they where not playing.

I guess everyone has there own standards and it's probably higher near the top.

Maybe the game makers need to write a nice new introduction to the game maybe some sort of flash tutorial, after all who reads the manual.
:crazyxmas:

Mighteh · 19 Jul 2006, 15:55

well, what is our alternative to a current exile system ? I cannot think of a viable one.

My current galaxy, me included, are exile Nazis. Even before round started our BP agreed upon certain rules that have to be followed in order not to be exiled.

1) IRC activity
2) Paid account. If account if unpaid, make intentions to pay for it clear to BP asap. within 24 ticks.
afterwards added a rule #3, that states that player has to be "likeable" (where we, BP, are very lenient), has to be emotionally stable, self sufficient (within normal limits, we still keep newer players and help them to the best of our ability, but we do not tolerate dead weight players who rely on us for everything, from scans and picking a target for them, to battlecalcing their own defences) and, in our fair judgement, has to be able to play untill the end of the round.
(and yes, that rule came to be only after one of our randoms went around every major alliance channel releasing our real nicks, coords and alliance information. Not that it mattered much, coz of soup of alliances we got ingal, but still, quite foul)
I do NOT think its too much to ask of any player. At least in any BP that plans to win the round. Potentially, setting aside many of mitigating factors, and using as a constant just the skill of core members, a LOT of galaxies are capable of winning. So asking some devotion from randoms, at least a fraction of our own devotion to winning.

We cannot only look at it from one side, that of randoms, but also at that of bp members, who have high expectations of EVERY round they play, and are being dragged down by the weight of randoms they have to deal with.

And there are MANY MANY MANY really good randoms out there. U just gotta keep looking. and for that, u need possibility to exile those who you deem not to be up to standards.

Zirikk · 20 Jul 2006, 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt25man

Yes, free accounts that are active don't usually get exiled, it's the ones that come in as new planets and after a day haven't even logged in again that get booted. Most galaxies will boot payed accounts if they're not active, so being free or paid is not really as big of an issue in deciding to exile someone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zirikk

"Your GC supplied the following explanation of his descision to exile you:
unpayed, will not grow"

jt25man · 20 Jul 2006, 08:31

I've been GC and kept free account players, some of them were much more active and beneficial to the galaxy than a few of the payed players.

DaffyDuck · 20 Jul 2006, 15:13

hardcore play server and a Fun play server?

then potentially people could play both.

(second thoughts prob not a good idea, nvm)

Kargool · 20 Jul 2006, 15:37

I think i've upgraded about 20-30 planets during the last few rounds, and then mine is not included. heh. I think that alliances cover the social part of PA quite well, and galaxies are more or less redundant atm.