[Declined] Why do PPL dis pds part -2 (new idea)

[noah02]

Instead of having PDS because nobody likes it and only a minority of lets say 5% do.

Then why cant we have a construction that targets structure killers only?
I mean its not like the construction is going to die because its part of the % of other constructions. So its not like they will get bashed.
But also its not PDS becuase it only targets the structure killers.
I dont know if its possible to do this but i think its something to look at doing.

[Blixxard]

You haven’t been the first with that idea. It was 3.1 on my thoughts and ideas. Kal and Kloopy liked the idea.
What do other people think of the suggestion?

[mist]

IF it can be balanced, then i don't see it as a bad thing

however, i believe that curretly one of the races uses structure killers as pod flack. obviously in this scenario adding pds that targets structure killers only would severly disadvantage that race.

that said, i don't think this is a particularly amazing idea either - i don't think it would change the game much, and i'm not quite sure how easy it would be to code, as combat is targeted by ship type, rather than by ship's target

-mist

[MAdnRisKy]

I believe MOST of ther races use them as pod flak... or they *could* do

[furball]

Originally Posted by mist

however, i believe that curretly one of the races uses structure killers as pod flack. obviously in this scenario adding pds that targets structure killers only would severly disadvantage that race.

I think that this is more a problem with the Galleon (read: massively over-powered) rather than with the concept.

I quite like the idea of being able to defend against structure-killers, perhaps we could have.....









Holo-structures?

[MAdnRisKy]

Originally Posted by Nonentity

I think that this is more a problem with the Galleon (read: massively over-powered) rather than with the concept.

I quite like the idea of being able to defend against structure-killers, perhaps we could have.....









Holo-structures?

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Nonentity

I think that this is more a problem with the Galleon (read: massively over-powered) rather than with the concept.

I have a half-written post that delves into why they are in fact broken by design.

Here's the abridged version:

1. They discourage large planets getting amps, thus encouraging scan planets.
2. They destroy disproportionate amounts of (roidearned) resources compared to cost.
3. Encourage bashing in the same way PDS did.
4. They discourage 'large planets' (war-time planets) builidng more than 10 or 20 structures, thereby making it easier for them to research HCT.
5. Losing a structure is the loss of another resource (time) which does not factor into ship building (though it does factor into landing an attack, we shall quickly see that this does not matter).

If anyone wants the full version say so and maybe I'll write it up. Structure defense sounds like a possible way of fixing the problem, except I expect most everyone will want to build it. Which is an indication that something is wrong with the feature.

[Forest]

I have no idea wht the post writer is on about, though others seem to. Please tell me what its about!!

[mist]

the post writer wants a building which fires at attacking ships, a la pds, however they specifically want it to shoot at ships which target buildings. one assumes as a deterant to some git comming and bombing your planet back in to the stoneage

-mist

[noah02]

Cept it wouldnt be pds it would be another construction which would'nt get bashed because with the structure killers not being able to attack a certain building(maybe another branch in cov op also like you have to kill distorters) and killing only a percentage.

And remember if somoene chooses to buy them they have to pay a lot for them in the long run(aka more you buy the more it costs for constructions) but would line it self out with the fact that if you have 3 of them and you have to run your ships it might kill 2 lets say sphinx with at least you are going to get a bit of salvage for the constructions/roids you have lost rather than nothing.

[arbondigo]

What are you going on about? From your last post you want say 3 constructions that will kill 2 sphinxes??? PDS is bad. Constructions which shoot at ships is more or less the same as PDS. Just join a decent alliance and your problems are over

[noah02]

Originally Posted by arbondigo

What are you going on about? From your last post you want say 3 constructions that will kill 2 sphinxes??? PDS is bad. Constructions which shoot at ships is more or less the same as PDS. Just join a decent alliance and your problems are over

Its an example. And its called an idea not a forceful thing that i need.
And its not PDS for the last time.
And they 3 constructions killing 2 sphinxes is an example obviously it would'nt be that bad in comparison it would have to be worked out in what way would work out best for both attacker and defender, whats the matter are you a construction basher? scared of losing one or 2 ships?.
And as for a decent alliance?

[arbondigo]

Originally Posted by noah02

Its an example. And its called an idea not a forceful thing that i need.
And its not PDS for the last time.
And they 3 constructions killing 2 sphinxes is an example obviously it would'nt be that bad in comparison it would have to be worked out in what way would work out best for both attacker and defender, whats the matter are you a construction basher? scared of losing one or 2 ships?.
And as for a decent alliance?

It is PDS

[mist]

he's right, it is

-mist

[noah02]

well yes it is but not PDS PDS the sort that gets bashed every 5 mins.
Maybe for those ppl who dont like losing ships(crying non stop) all of these said construction would emp the sctructure killers with a ratio of whatever is best.

[Linkie]

Originally Posted by Nonentity

Holo-structures?

We got deathstar, we got deathstar!

<o/ \o/ \o>

[arbondigo]

Originally Posted by noah02

well yes it is but not PDS PDS the sort that gets bashed every 5 mins.
Maybe for those ppl who dont like losing ships(crying non stop) all of these said construction would emp the sctructure killers with a ratio of whatever is best.

So now you would like your constructions all destroyed? If constructions were to be turned into a form of PDS then people will just send in a lot more structure killers.

[Linkie]

There would probably still be a 20% cap on destroyed structures.

[noah02]

you can only kill a % at the moment and everyone sends structure killers. They send more structure killers its only going to kill the same % with more or less killers.
You are just trying to argue everypoint i put in here without actually thinking about what you are saying.
If i send 100 or 1000 sphinx's its still only gonna kill the same 20% of constructions wether i send more or not. Same as roids your only ever gonna be able to cap 25%.

[arbondigo]

Yes and if the constructions turn into PDS then people will send enough to kill 20% every time.

[noah02]

Originally Posted by arbondigo

Yes and if the constructions turn into PDS then people will send enough to kill 20% every time.

What and they dont now?

[arbondigo]

Originally Posted by noah02

What and they dont now?

Not to the same extent no. Did you play when PDS was around? You would see the bashing that occurred then. A lot of people don't send structure killers to kill 20% of them, but if they were turned into PDS then they would. More people would consequently whinge about 20% of their structures being killed every time they're attacked.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by noah02

What and they dont now?

Right now it's a bonus. Killing structures is just icing on the cake of getting roids. No one lands 'just to kill structures' unless they're taking very low losses.

[Eol]

Originally Posted by noah02

What and they dont now?

I generally only send my structure killers along if I dislike the person or alliance I'm attacking.

[noah02]

Plus the fact that the whole point of this thread was that they target structure killers only aka if they exist then ppl arent going to start sending structure killers if there not already because its not going to make the slightest bit of difference to there attack.
No losses or anything.

Constructions that target STRUCTURE KILLERS only.
Will not make ppl want to buy more structure killers unless they are out to destroy ppl's structures ALREADY, so if you dont then there is nothing to worry about ie xan ppl dont send structure killers often so its not going to affect there fleet one bit.
Same roids etc... Its only going to be a detterent from ppl killing your structers who want to attack with structure killers because they are already bashing ppls light factorys and wave amps etc...

They anti structure killer is not going to stop you from getting your roids ok?
Its going to stop you from totally bashing someones wave amps as much and maybe earn a bit more salvage rather than non as you do now.

Please understand were this is coming from it wont harm your ROIDING FLEET wont INCREASE BASHING it will lessen it if anything unless someone means to destroy your structures on purpose.

[noah02]

Originally Posted by Banned

Right now it's a bonus. Killing structures is just icing on the cake of getting roids. No one lands 'just to kill structures' unless they're taking very low losses.

So we should get rid of them all together then?

[KarnivOre]

i think it will be a mixed blessing. the other day i owned someone for 20 structures, it was fun, he was bigger than me and got very upset.

that said, the structure killer construction (SKC) wont work againts that evil "send galleons as defence and maurauders to attack" business, which frankly i see as a demon to deal with.

the problem will be balancing the SKC, what kind of power should it have? if it isnt powerful enough then nobody but a few will bother but if it is too powerful then everyone will have 10 or so to stop structural bombardment.

maybe if we made the SKC use emp and be a bit more powerful, as it wouldnt destroy the ship, just freeze it.


personally im more in favour of the "planetary shield" idea, if that had "shield battery" construction that added 20hp to the shield or somethin then that wud be a much less abusable and more logical path.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by noah02

So we should get rid of them all together then?

Get rid of what altogether?

[noah02]

Originally Posted by KarnivOre

maybe if we made the SKC use emp and be a bit more powerful, as it wouldnt destroy the ship, just freeze it.

I did mention this seems like the better idea i reckon but then unless you get salvage for construction's I think A bit of hitting back would be nice no like superpowerful construction defence just good enough to blast a few ships but not stupid amounts to scare ppl who use them now from using them.

[LordBrem]

Killing structures is a good thing, it's fun. But making these structures basically immune would not be a good idea, it would ruin structure killing. If these were considered IN ADDITION to the 20% that could be bashed that might work - you can only kill 20% real structs, but you can kill ALL the pds structs.

[noah02]

Originally Posted by LordBrem

Killing structures is a good thing, it's fun. But making these structures basically immune would not be a good idea, it would ruin structure killing. If these were considered IN ADDITION to the 20% that could be bashed that might work - you can only kill 20% real structs, but you can kill ALL the pds structs.

I did mention I think somewere that they are a construction PDS ie that you lose 20% not 100% of constructions so you only would lose 20% of construction. whether you lose the said pds will depend what 20% you lose

[LordBrem]

Originally Posted by noah02

I did mention I think somewere that they are a construction PDS ie that you lose 20% not 100% of constructions so you only would lose 20% of construction. whether you lose the said pds will depend what 20% you lose

And my point being that the idea of pds which are IMMUNE to being destroyed is retarded. No one will ever use struct killers. Just get rid of them if you hate it so much.

[Iceman]

make PDS. make PDS a structure. Make more structure killers/structure killers more versatile. make it strategey based like the ships are now, make it another thing to think about. as PDS would be included as a structure/ structures it would be included in whatever cap there would be (maybe consider revising the cap). There surely is a way you can give it an advantage or necessity in the game that ships cannot achieve, only balance.

[demiGOD]

PDS rocked!! i remember this back in the early rounds.. we have to have a defense system constructed in the production section with your ships, and these systems will consist of defense guns and turrets that are land based (cannot be assigned to fleets) who will primarily target structure killers and secondarily (i know secondary targets and tertiary targets are being discussed on another thread) will shoot other ships - because realistically, if you have ships assigned to fleets (specially with the existence of structure killers, which we shouldnt get rid of btw), you should also have "land based" defense systems to protect your assets that are on base.. a lot of military bases all over the world use this.. why not in PA? and.. to even make it more interesting.. to boost up the interest of acquiring as much defense systems as a player can, add another structure that is going to be essential to the operation of one's structures.. like a power generation plant or a reactor plant to power these labs and factories, so a player is going to have to add these defense systems to his priorities list of course.. these defense systems will also be targeted by structure killers so there still is that bcalc'ing factor

[noah02]

Sort of like what you do in research already
But I get your point on the power thing but would be an expensive game the more you have to build.

[noah02]

We also want bullet proof churches.

[Appocomaster]

I think that a "construction" targetting purely structure killers, while immune to being killed themselves, isn't ever going to work, whatever form it's in.
Holostructures would be a better idea structures that take 1/2 time to build and die before any of your structures die.
oh, and 40% salvage on your constructions - (0.4 * (!(origional number of structures) - !(remaining number of structures))

[noah02]

They would'nt be immune they would just be included in the 20% random construction death that they have at the moment.
but salvage i agree on for sure all them hours and money for what?

[Appocomaster]

Well, if we have anti structure killers, when do they fire? and if there's a cap on buildings, assuming people have say 3 factories, and maybe 7 other structures. if you go the full hog, you can buy 140 structure killers max. But even the first 20 cost 410k of each resources and the next 20 cost 810k and so on ... how many structure killers would this have to be worth killing, resource wise. It would be hugely uneconomical, and impossible to balance, unless the structure killers' damage was based on how many you had, and did more damage per gun the more you had (for some unexplainable strange reason).
I still stick by my answer that some sort of holoconstruction, 1/2 cost and construction time (rounded up), that doesnt count for your construction total (or maybe even make it count) would be better.

[Judge]

in reply to the specific question "why do people hate PDS?"

1) PDS can get completely wiped out if a planet is waved by multiple attackers.
2) Unlike a fleet you cannot run it.
3) The larger planets (towards the end of the round) have tendancy to build TONS of it, making it unviable to attack them.
4) If there fleet is out attacking/defending you have a chance to Fleet Catch them or take roids for free (unlikely in the later case)

PDS sux big time forget it in anyway shape or form.

[Kal]

declined - pds