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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 18:53   #1
Forest
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New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

I am investigating the possibility of a training alliance (or series of training alliances), built specifically to help new players into the game, and enable them to move onto 'proper' alliances.

I will be looking for pateam support, which in the main include new alliance features and a mail to new players when they join up. This is at a talking stage and not advanced to go into any details (nothing is agreed, merely an informal chat).

The alliance itself will probably use ingame tools as much as possible, but depending on kloopy's workload, may need a techie.
We will be using our own quest type things to introduce the game to new players, and if we can get this off the ground, we may go as far as having some way for experienced players to give donations so as to get new players free credits or something. This is still up for discussion.

I envisage getting the most recruits through alliances having members with new players in there galaxies and passing them on to be trained. For instance, Synthetic_Sid (only using this name as I know you all know him) has a new player join the game and land in his galaxy. Instead of simply exiling him on, Sid would apply somehow for the player to join the alliance. The player would get accepted on the grounds that Sid would be willing to help him along in the game, as long as the alliance helps him with attacks/defence. Its a two way street, and you, the players, have to help the new players in order for me to be able to help them. I cant do it alone.

Sid would benefit from having an active player.
Alliances would benefit because we would be providing players with the basic knowledge of the game, ready for them to teach the way there alliances run.
The game would benefit from more players.

We wont be getting involved in politics, nor involved in alliance ranks. Our role is simply to take new players, give them basic knowledge and a chance to play the game in an alliance situation, before moving them onto proper alliances.

I will be using my contacts in alliances to 1) make sure we have a steady stream of new players applying (It cant be done without them), and 2) make sure we have somewhere to move players onto once they have the working knowledge.

I need from the community answers to the following questions.

1) Would you be willing to help players in your galaxies, new to the game, join the alliance, and also support them in your galaxies? If you have issues with the player once they are in your galaxy, would you approach the training alliance hc with them, so they can be addressed?

2) Would you be willing to donate a credit or two to get new players into the game, providing I can put together a decent propsal that would work?

3) To alliance HC: Would u be willing to encourage memebrs to keep new players in there galaxies? Would you be willing to accept recruits once they have made a certain level (I will approach all alliances seperately on irc when we have decided to go ahead with this).

I also need a possible techie, and 5-10 'proper' players willing to sacrifice there time (and probably planet), to help the game and help keep the new players who join, then leave. If you are willing, you can contact me in #public on irc, or mail me at 4:7:4 or [email protected]

General thoughts are also appreciated.

Once I have some feedback on the above, I will be in a better positin to decide if this is a viable proposition and whether we can go ahead with it.

Forest
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 19:01   #2
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

bit busy, so I'll keep it short

1. yep, I usually explain the game to newbies...
2. personally I would not, due to money problems, but I know plenty of players that will
3. VGN already accepts newbies and trains them on a regular base, so yes, I will encourage members and accept good-looking recruits (good-looking as in planet ofc (well good-looking females ok as well :-P)

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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 19:02   #3
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

problem with training allainces is once the players are trained they leave.

so the allaince suffers greatly from problems ranging from activity to a feeling of 'no point in try, they all jsut leave'

the idea of pateam support is interesting but would be a drain on already stretched manpower...

I cant see how it can be run, but if a way can be developed it would be a huge gain for the entire game
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 19:04   #4
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

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Originally Posted by RobTD
2. personally I would not, due to money problems, but I know plenty of players that will
It's always me who does this anyway
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 19:07   #5
Forest
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackle
problem with training allainces is once the players are trained they leave.

so the allaince suffers greatly from problems ranging from activity to a feeling of 'no point in try, they all jsut leave'

the idea of pateam support is interesting but would be a drain on already stretched manpower...

I cant see how it can be run, but if a way can be developed it would be a huge gain for the entire game
The players leaving when they are trained is exactly the aim, I dont want us to be stealing players from other alliances etc. I am not too worried about the activity, I believe i have the knowledge and understanding to make sure that isnt a problem.

Leave pateam to me, they are putty in my hands
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 19:11   #6
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

I'd be more than willing to give a hand where ever needed if this does get off the ground.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 19:32   #7
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Why not form a new alliance based on newbies, period ?

Invite everyone and his dog, some of them will actually stay, probably
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 19:36   #8
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

I think you'll find that people don't want to be 'trained'. They aren't dogs.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 19:37   #9
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

I don't on the whole support this idea.

The reasons are thus:
1) I know Forest fairly well, and I don't think he's in a position to devote the time or stamina to making this work across the duration of 1 full round.

2) I don't think this alliance is necessary because its not fulfilling a unique position in the community. Several alliances make a point of trying to recruit quality new players and train them up for the good of the game.

Other than that, good points are made. I think a more positive way to go would be for Forest to devote his efforts into identifying and networking with alliances who are willing to take in new players through next round and train them from scratch. Then further, getting veteran players to have a general consensus on what is good galaxy policy on treatment of players arriving in their galaxies.

For instance if the Top 50 galaxies mostly agree that:
1) When a new player arrives, they are greeted by a Galaxy Overview message, Galaxy Forum post, and a Minister mailing them. The message is, mail the GC or post on the forums or we'll assume you're inactive and exile you.

Galaxy Commanders will agree to wait until the * first goes away or 12 hours, whichever is shorter.

2) Once a new player makes contact, they have 24 hours to get into the galaxy IRC channel. The galaxy will give such assistance as they are able in helping to make this happen.

3) If a brand new player can manage to learn how to send a mail and log onto IRC, the galaxy will give assistance for the first week to judge the new players intelligence and motivation. They will then have a list of alliances who are newbie friendly and can talk to the recruiters of a given alliance to setup an interview with their newbie.


That right there would be a solid start for any new player. Its not a free ride, its fair to the galaxy, and fair to the new player. It can tolerate a few exceptions in the top 50 and still provide enough "landing pads" for most people to end up somewhere they can handle.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 19:40   #10
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

So cayl, i could be better off making sure the above ideas of whats needed is in place. I could aproach alliances to get this impressed on there members etc, and i could use some pushing in pateam to get new mails to players that are actually useful?

I am aware I have a privileged position in pa in that i ahve friends in most places, and feel i should be making a difference.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 19:46   #11
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

I like the initiative and that you're willing to do something for the community and help new players.
I am however wondering how this will affect current smaller (training) alliances. Alliances like ROCK and F-crew (and probably quite a few more) currently take in a lot of new players and try to teach them how the game works. Often when those players have reached a certain size that is beyond the capabilities of the training alliances to cover they move on. However there are also a few players that stick with the training alliances. This is one of the ways (a rather important one) that keeps the smaller alliances alive.

When a new alliance takes over the role as training alliance, the smaller alliances will lose an important way of getting new members. I imagine that when the people that are trained by this new training alliance are fully trained that they won't be looking for another (smallish) training alliance, but will go for the big alliances. This way the smaller alliances will slowly die (unless some other solution is found).

When things like ingame mail is implemented then, in my opinion, not only the new training alliance should be mentioned, but also other alliances that are willing to train and help new members.

In conclusion I think that your heart may be in the right place, but you may want to think about what the effect will be for the smaller alliances.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 19:49   #12
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

I would be interested to hear the views here fo the smaller alliances. I know a couple have responded negatively and a couple positively, but i would like it posted here so we can discuss it fully.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 20:00   #13
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

tbh, you already have alliances that a new player could join if he wanted an alliance. They could go to the top and probably get lucky or get denied but then you can always apply to Vgn as they said they have taken some new players, Coven, FCrew and so on. Any alliance with low recruitment standards will genenerally have a decent turn-over rate of people leaving to be with other alliances who are more 'elite' than the alliance that takes, say a free account and so on.

New players will always find a home, I don't think that's a problem. There's always Subh to join if it seems hopeless
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 20:20   #14
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cayl
1) I know Forest fairly well, and I don't think he's in a position to devote the time or stamina to making this work across the duration of 1 full round.
I, however, do have this stamina. Although, I'm not too familiar with Forest's history, but it seems like every round his planet suffers while he provides services to lower-ranked players.

P.S. Yes I've offered to help Forest fully.

As I mentioned on IRC, in my opinion its not the players in these galaxies that need to be 'trained'. Thats what GCs and ministers, and tbh, every other seasoned player in the galaxy is there for. I had been thinking an idea like this through for at least 3 months now, except the players targetted would be those in the weakest galaxies. I'm talking those where you are browsing through and they are all orange.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 20:24   #15
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali
tbh, you already have alliances that a new player could join if he wanted an alliance. They could go to the top and probably get lucky or get denied but then you can always apply to Vgn as they said they have taken some new players, Coven, FCrew and so on. Any alliance with low recruitment standards will genenerally have a decent turn-over rate of people leaving to be with other alliances who are more 'elite' than the alliance that takes, say a free account and so on.

New players will always find a home, I don't think that's a problem. There's always Subh to join if it seems hopeless
I don't want to sound harsh when I say this, but some alliances have HCs that are so inept, and don't fully understand the game themselves. No I am not referring to VGN, F-Crew or even Coven, but there are some that quite simply are pure ****.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 20:27   #16
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
I am investigating the possibility of a training alliance (or series of training alliances), built specifically to help new players into the game, and enable them to move onto 'proper' alliances.

I will be looking for pateam support, which in the main include new alliance features and a mail to new players when they join up. This is at a talking stage and not advanced to go into any details (nothing is agreed, merely an informal chat).

The alliance itself will probably use ingame tools as much as possible, but depending on kloopy's workload, may need a techie.
We will be using our own quest type things to introduce the game to new players, and if we can get this off the ground, we may go as far as having some way for experienced players to give donations so as to get new players free credits or something. This is still up for discussion.

I envisage getting the most recruits through alliances having members with new players in there galaxies and passing them on to be trained. For instance, Synthetic_Sid (only using this name as I know you all know him) has a new player join the game and land in his galaxy. Instead of simply exiling him on, Sid would apply somehow for the player to join the alliance. The player would get accepted on the grounds that Sid would be willing to help him along in the game, as long as the alliance helps him with attacks/defence. Its a two way street, and you, the players, have to help the new players in order for me to be able to help them. I cant do it alone.

Sid would benefit from having an active player.
Alliances would benefit because we would be providing players with the basic knowledge of the game, ready for them to teach the way there alliances run.
The game would benefit from more players.

We wont be getting involved in politics, nor involved in alliance ranks. Our role is simply to take new players, give them basic knowledge and a chance to play the game in an alliance situation, before moving them onto proper alliances.

I will be using my contacts in alliances to 1) make sure we have a steady stream of new players applying (It cant be done without them), and 2) make sure we have somewhere to move players onto once they have the working knowledge.

I need from the community answers to the following questions.

1) Would you be willing to help players in your galaxies, new to the game, join the alliance, and also support them in your galaxies? If you have issues with the player once they are in your galaxy, would you approach the training alliance hc with them, so they can be addressed?

2) Would you be willing to donate a credit or two to get new players into the game, providing I can put together a decent propsal that would work?

3) To alliance HC: Would u be willing to encourage memebrs to keep new players in there galaxies? Would you be willing to accept recruits once they have made a certain level (I will approach all alliances seperately on irc when we have decided to go ahead with this).

I also need a possible techie, and 5-10 'proper' players willing to sacrifice there time (and probably planet), to help the game and help keep the new players who join, then leave. If you are willing, you can contact me in #public on irc, or mail me at 4:7:4 or [email protected]

General thoughts are also appreciated.

Once I have some feedback on the above, I will be in a better positin to decide if this is a viable proposition and whether we can go ahead with it.

Forest

Do newer members of the universe want to be trained in an alliance that has no experience in 'training' people (and don't say that it has experienced players; i was merely pointing to the fact that now, it doesn't exist), no interest in politics (which AT LEAST half the fun of the game) and an alliance who's player base is rather relied upon by the answers to questions 1,2 and 3 in your thread.

Or would it be more attractive for them to begin in an alliance that is established (no matter the size) has goals and rather than concentrate on gaining technical ability (which I think would be the point of the new alliance) has fun and doesnt not focus specifically on the new member getting better.

Getting better at this game comes with time. Im not sure whether anyone that arrives into a gal and posts a 'Hi Im new thread, do you know an alliance' will be interested in going to school to play the game.

Some may think im being deliberatley harsh at this stage, but im not; im giving my opinion.

Some more problems I envisage:


Pa team support and not being involved in alliance rankings has never happened before. You are asking to be special. You are asking to be seperated from other alliances. I think its ambitious.

Where are you going to be supplying these new players too? I realise that you have pointed this out, but to be part of the pa production line is not an attractive option. They will make friends in your alliance, and the thought of moving the 'puppies into new kennels' (which is the image that sprung to mind when i read the thread, is also ambitous.

To reiterate Cayl's point: Have you really enough time for this? If you have, are you prepared to do a thankless task and merge into the background of pa and forgotten about? I cant imagine the alliance will gain much publicity (as for instance, you wont see it on the universe rankings screen). If the answer is not 'Yes. I would also get a kick out of answering new players questions and helping them Im not doing it for credit.' Don't bother starting.

There are obviously the generic problems that can be identified with any begginning alliance. (Some you have already identified- needing experienced players to teach the inexperienced, making sure the fundamentals are in place so it doesnt go to rat-shit and drive you insane etc).


HOWEVER:


Some of this is good.

To have a fresh and new idea to benefit the pa community can not be ignored. There are certain elements of this that suggests you want to rejuvinate the community be boosting the universe with new players. If you can get this to work, it would be great for everyone.

I particularly like the idea of a series of training alliances. This adds variation to who you can start playing the game with. It could, with the right implementation turn into an excellent idea. First, you have to find the players that need and more importantly, want help with their game. Then yo uneed to hunt them down, advertise and recruit them like hell.

Youve obviously got an image and a vision, which is how everything starts. I offer a sincere good luck with this, with a request to keeping us informed, as I am already intrigued to know how this would pan out.



The above is my opinion.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 20:27   #17
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydrax
I like the initiative and that you're willing to do something for the community and help new players.
I am however wondering how this will affect current smaller (training) alliances. Alliances like ROCK and F-crew (and probably quite a few more) currently take in a lot of new players and try to teach them how the game works. Often when those players have reached a certain size that is beyond the capabilities of the training alliances to cover they move on. However there are also a few players that stick with the training alliances. This is one of the ways (a rather important one) that keeps the smaller alliances alive.

When a new alliance takes over the role as training alliance, the smaller alliances will lose an important way of getting new members. I imagine that when the people that are trained by this new training alliance are fully trained that they won't be looking for another (smallish) training alliance, but will go for the big alliances. This way the smaller alliances will slowly die (unless some other solution is found).

When things like ingame mail is implemented then, in my opinion, not only the new training alliance should be mentioned, but also other alliances that are willing to train and help new members.

In conclusion I think that your heart may be in the right place, but you may want to think about what the effect will be for the smaller alliances.
What with the (most likely) decreasing size of alliance limits, I'm not sure if smaller alliances will have any such problem in finding members. All it requires is some community effort to, as I said, target those who would otherwise have no chance of being targetted.

BTW, I refer to 'targetting' as if the players were customers.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 20:38   #18
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cayl
2) I don't think this alliance is necessary because its not fulfilling a unique position in the community. Several alliances make a point of trying to recruit quality new players and train them up for the good of the game.

Other than that, good points are made. I think a more positive way to go would be for Forest to devote his efforts into identifying and networking with alliances who are willing to take in new players through next round and train them from scratch. Then further, getting veteran players to have a general consensus on what is good galaxy policy on treatment of players arriving in their galaxies.
Sorry Cayl, guess I missed this bit. Anyway, I do agree with this - 'train' the HCs to 'train' others. Training 10 HCs will allow 10 times as many more to be trained in the same space of time. Clever.

Assuming I interpreted that correctly...
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 20:45   #19
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

I havent read every reply so forgive me if anything i say below has already been covered. Oh and before i start, dont stick your coordinates in your post.

This in essence sounds like an advanced version of the Mentors thing that was around a while ago. I cant quite remember what happened to that (some disagreements maybe?) but it seemed to die off fairly quickly without any major impact. Unfortunately i can imagine a similar thing happening here. For starters having PA team involved isnt always great. Aside from giving you an official status it also puts you under the thumb and Jolt/PAteam may not always have the same ideals as yourself. That wouldnt be my major worry though.

What happens to the other small alliances in the game, of which there are plenty? If new people are offered the chance to join this elite group, maybe with the chance of having their accoun payed for, why should they go for anyone else? You would be depriving small alliances of teir player base. Once a new player is trained i imagine he would be passed onto one of the medium/large allainces thus cutting the small alliances out of the game completely.

You seem to be trying to create something that already exists in the lower parts of the PA universe from my experience. New players are continually taken up and trained. Its not particularly advertised or coordinated, but it is there. As Ali said (just noticed his post seeing as it is the last reply), i dont see the need for this.

I'm in no real position to comment on any of your questions as i no longer play the game, but i thought i might as well add my 2 pence.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 20:49   #20
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
The players leaving when they are trained is exactly the aim, I dont want us to be stealing players from other alliances etc. I am not too worried about the activity, I believe i have the knowledge and understanding to make sure that isnt a problem.

Leave pateam to me, they are putty in my hands

Putty in your hands eh? I think not Now.. i do like this idea but this was sort of created before with the 'Mentors team' a few rounds back.. now that completly failed. But i hope you make a success at this as i do like the idea.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 20:52   #21
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
I havent read every reply so forgive me if anything i say below has already been covered. Oh and before i start, dont stick your coordinates in your post.

This in essence sounds like an advanced version of the Mentors thing that was around a while ago. I cant quite remember what happened to that (some disagreements maybe?) but it seemed to die off fairly quickly without any major impact. Unfortunately i can imagine a similar thing happening here. For starters having PA team involved isnt always great. Aside from giving you an official status it also puts you under the thumb and Jolt/PAteam may not always have the same ideals as yourself. That wouldnt be my major worry though.

What happens to the other small alliances in the game, of which there are plenty? If new people are offered the chance to join this elite group, maybe with the chance of having their accoun payed for, why should they go for anyone else? You would be depriving small alliances of teir player base. Once a new player is trained i imagine he would be passed onto one of the medium/large allainces thus cutting the small alliances out of the game completely.

You seem to be trying to create something that already exists in the lower parts of the PA universe from my experience. New players are continually taken up and trained. Its not particularly advertised or coordinated, but it is there. As Ali said (just noticed his post seeing as it is the last reply), i dont see the need for this.

I'm in no real position to comment on any of your questions as i no longer play the game, but i thought i might as well add my 2 pence.


Ali was not the last reply. I think you shouldve scrolled down tbh!

I think you can give Forest enough credit to accept his coords being in his thread. I found your warning patronising. (without wanting to offend).

Im going to defend Forest here. Not trying something because some have been and failed is no reason whatsoever to discourage the idea. His idea is fresh, and the first to have an idea of this magnitude, and it is only in the planning/discussion stages.

I agree to an extent about your pa team point and the lower ends of the universe already doing this job, though.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 21:14   #22
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virall
Ali was not the last reply. I think you shouldve scrolled down tbh!
Did you ever think that maybe it was the last post at the time of me typing my reply and then by the time i posted some new ones had been made?*

I dont mean to sound patronising by the way.

Quote:
I think you can give Forest enough credit to accept his coords being in his thread. I found your warning patronising. (without wanting to offend).
I'm a mod, my job is to enforce the rules, one of which is no coords.

Quote:
Im going to defend Forest here. Not trying something because some have been and failed is no reason whatsoever to discourage the idea. His idea is fresh, and the first to have an idea of this magnitude, and it is only in the planning/discussion stages.
I was just tring to give my thoughts on things that may or may not have gone through his mind while thinking of the positives and negatives of this.


*I got distracted half way through my post so wasnt too quick at replying.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 21:31   #23
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

I think anything more to help the new ppl gets my full support and tbh from next round onwards I am finished with PA but will be around.
So I would happily be semi-active in an alliance trying to help ppl when i can.
As for donations I do it every round so no change there.
But even if I dont even have a PA account anymore I would gladly idle in a alliance of new ppl and help where i can.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 21:35   #24
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
Did you ever think that maybe it was the last post at the time of me typing my reply and then by the time i posted some new ones had been made?*

I dont mean to sound patronising by the way.


I'm a mod, my job is to enforce the rules, one of which is no coords.


I was just tring to give my thoughts on things that may or may not have gone through his mind while thinking of the positives and negatives of this.


*I got distracted half way through my post so wasnt too quick at replying.

Id been typing for a while, and didn't think you would go afk for that long. It isn't REALLY a point to pick out on either, and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I was merely making a humourous jape that didn't warrant reply.

You arent listed as a mod on either your public profile or at the foot of alliance discussions, so thats where my surprise stems from regarding the coords.

And yes, your opinions here are fine. I was discussing it, this also needed no justification.


Lets keep it on topic; thats also a forum rule I believe.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 21:51   #25
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Hmm, interesting replies.

Im wondering now, if a 'training the hc' etc idea may work better, but i wouldnt be too good at that, as i never was much a good hc.
I can get people to follow me blindly and loyally to there death if need be, but tbh, it was usually straigt to there death
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 21:55   #26
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

That could be a problem!
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 21:59   #27
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

getting people to follow you is half the battle.

One of the reasons most HC's fail, is because people dont follow them enough, and dont trust them enough to put there lives(virtual) on the line.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 22:01   #28
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Well forest i have told you on Irc i am willing to help you as i think this is a good idea. And ignore the negative replies.. this usally means they like to crtizise people trying to make an effort but wont do anything themselves to help the community. I respect anyone wanting to help which is why i am willingb to help out myself.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 22:02   #29
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

That warrants a pos rep.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 22:09   #30
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willzzz
And ignore the negative replies.. this usally means they like to crtizise people trying to make an effort but wont do anything themselves to help the community.

To be fair, I have been asking people to post negative + positive. Cayl for instance raised his comments in pm with me, and i asked him to post here as well.

Reasons for this are this is gonna be a big project if undertaken, so I need to know i can make it work.
Also, negative comments bring up new questions, and possible solutions.
I think a well thought out negative answer is better than a quickly written positive answer,

I really dont want people to just say what i want to hear, i need to hear all sides before even seeing if this will benefit the community. As it stands, im not convinced it will, because if it removes a way for smaller alliances to recruit, its both not acheiveing my aims, nor good for the community.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 22:11   #31
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

[16:56] <Vasquez> 1) its a new mentor system..... look how that turned out
[16:56] <Vasquez> 2) do u have ENOUGH activity to be able to oversee the whole activity
[16:57] <Vasquez> 3) i do believe you have the contacts but do you really think they will come through on their word and keep these newbies who potentially could drain def to a predominantly hostile galaxy
[16:58] <Vasquez> 4) there are alliances that attempt to help the newcomers, if helping is your aim then possibly it may be time for you to leave the comfort of 1up and join one of these smaller people and lend your experience to an already established alliance which would benefit the community and the game immensely

[16:59] <Virall|afk> i cba to read this spam in here when i can reply to it there
[16:59] <Vasquez> i cba to log in
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 22:11   #32
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Well perhaps offering to train the officers/HCs of the smaller allies is a better option as you mentioned above? This way your inproving the smaller allies and might even bring members to them.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 22:11   #33
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

<Forest_bbiab> vasq 1) as i told pateam, they fked the mentor thing up, but then, thats what we expected. 2) i dont, but i can put a team together to be able to. 3) yes, i serioulsy do, as long as there are some hard and fast ground rules. the players realise they ahve to act or watch the game die. 4) yes that is an option, which i have explored, and i have been accepted into a small alliance on principle, but i wanted to explore this option
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 22:38   #34
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Correct me if im wrong but wouldnt this be like the third time you've tried something like this Forest?

Having skim read most of the posts after the intitial ones, I personally dont see any real benifit to doing this. There are allies like FCrew who focus their efforts into attracting new players to do what you suggest. Plus most allies whether they like it or not need to have some kind of recruit wing, for the sake of survival.

If you've lots of energy to burn (and this project would indeed use a lot), i suggest looking at ways to bring in new players rather then trying to cater (in an otherwise over-crowded recruitment market) for the new ones already here.

I would think most players who want to play PA at an alliance level, already have an ally. For the few who dont know how to get an ally, well maybe PA team need to spell this part of the game out for them (if they dont already?).

Sorry to rain on anybodies fire.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 22:47   #35
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Yes i have thought about soemthing similar before, but never got past the planning stage.

I am also looking at ways of recruiting new players to the game, and i am arranging a meeting with Jolt over one such thing.

The f-crew etc argument is one i am seeing again and again, and has certainly getting me thinking.

And i reiterate, your not 'raining on my parade', your giving me your thought out thoughts, and thats exactly what i have asked for, so ty.
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 23:15   #36
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

While the game does need more training alliances whom have the experiance in their ranks to carry out this training well I dont belive this is the right way to do it.

One of my main issues is the proposal of having PATeam support. It seems like your basically saying to those taking a training alliance position now "sod off, i'm 1up and thus superior and can do the job better". Theres a big difference between being a good and experianced member of an elite alliances and being good and experiance member in a training alliance and while the two things arent mutually exclusive they arent a guarantee of both being true. Theres no guarentee that you will be a good trainer, like alot of people whom take some time off from an elite alliance to train new players you may simply not get the community at that area of the game which is much differnt and needs treated in a differnt way so as to get the best out of them and get them to keep playing PA and to have fun. I just dont see what puts you in a position to demand such a priviledge especially one that doesnt fully remove the need for the training alliances but which makes their job alot harder, potentially so much that some go to the wall (will talk more about that in the next bit)

Then theres the issue of making people need vouches in the way your suggesting. You are now saying "Your lucky you have landed in good galaxy and you can join us and we will then get you into a good alliance later" while saying to those whom land in less good galaxies "your in a shit galaxy so piss off we dont want to help you". These people need the help as much if not more yet your going to deny them that. This will be where the existing training alliances come in and they will be left with the members in the poor galaxies. And this will be a problem, a training alliances success somewhat depends on getting a mix, you need your experianced command, your second year players, your new players in good galaxies and new players in bad galaxies. They all come together and bring differnt elements that can be passed on. When you have players all coming from the same background and level it makes it hard to do anything as they are all in the same boat and all having the same experiance. To be frank if I had to have an alliance made up of pretty much only the players in poor galaxies that were being bashed constantly I think I would simply burn out as the pressure would be immense, I only just get through a round now where we have people teaching each using there various differnt experiances.

Additionally I think you need some stability in a training alliance where as you sound like your idea is to farm people out as quickly as possible. One of the hardest things for a training alliance is to spend 3/4 of a round training a player and have him quit for elsewhere just as they become a real asset to the alliance. You want them to stay around and start paying back the investment by passing on their skills. Without that you never have the trie depth to start bring people through at a good rate. Certainly at F-Crew we generally like members to stay for a full round as that gives us the time to ready them for the next stage while giving them the chance to help bring the next batch through by being there to pass on what they have learnt.

I also think you need some kind of goals, doenst have to be a rank but you have to have them actually aiming at something to get them to shine. For example we will after set them Tasks of the week where they have some kind of quanifable target to reach to spur them on and to challenge them to use what they have learnt.


Anyway if you want to start a training alliance then go ahead but dont try and impose yourself in a self appointed role as the "official training alliance" it will do more harm than good. Use your knowledge and experiance to help being new players through in a proper enviorment without any PAteam help. If you do that you will have our suppirt and fcrew will be more than willing to help you out where we can

And if you have any infulence also look to use this to help EVERYONE and not just your alliance. If you can get improvements made to the alliance tools for example then good, ive been trying for rounds but get ignored, if you get a techie with time maybe see if they can come up with some tools that can be publically released for everyone ect ect
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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 23:35   #37
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Great. Now we'll ahve all new players declaring war on AD! :P

anyway

1) Yes I would
2) Already am
3) We are already

Was thinking of creating such an allie once Go Forest. Im happy to help wherever I can.

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Unread 14 Sep 2005, 23:44   #38
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

I want to volunteer to help simulate the attacks on their planets..
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Unread 15 Sep 2005, 00:58   #39
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

I think training the HC of noob allies would be a better idea tbh.
If you start a new alliance only for noobs keep in mind that only 100 people can join the ally (not even counting the hc & officers you'll need to run an alliance) & there are more new players out there that need help than 100.
Wouldn't it be better to just reach out a helping hand to newly formed allies that could use the help?
for example Scythe & Hidden Agenda.
Every round there's atleast 1 or 2 noob allies that manage to get alot of members who are new to the game, this is where we need to help, not make a new alliance that almost forces new people in it.
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Unread 15 Sep 2005, 01:03   #40
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

do they want the help though?
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Unread 15 Sep 2005, 01:09   #41
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

I think have they been offered help is a better question.

:edit: the good kind of help, not like what happened to apa this round with kargool running of with half of their members.
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Unread 15 Sep 2005, 02:03   #42
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Forest, you might know my opinion on this one, when i created the Mentor Team, few rounds back, i had the same ideals of helping the new players. We did a pretty good job at the begining, and i remember having a very good team around to help theses players.

The only problem was whenever we started to involve PAteam in this, and i am sure some remember this "little" incident with geoff and myself which led PATeam to kindly take over the team off my hands and jolt request to remove me from the team. I dont know how long it took to dismantle the team, but i think that one of their plan was to integrate the staff into support and by that killing the team.That the reason why the team didnt have any impact, and that why it died quite quickly.

I think that someone allready said that, letting jolt/PATeam involved into this idea is the brightest idea. Their ideals and their goals arent the same as yours, and they might end up getting off your path.

My only Advice would be, get total control of this team, never let Jolt aquire any responsability over this team as i predict that whenever you will stop serving their cause and their goal, they will try to remove you or end up changing your team's goal.

Saying that, i think the idea of having the community helping the community is something that should be nice, you dont need to think too much and you dont need to have it official as wakey told me once (little bit sad i didnt listen to him and to Webangel). you just need to act and evolve from there and turn this team to something more and more professional, the rest will come. help will come and players will aswell.

Anyway, i wish you good luck.
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Unread 15 Sep 2005, 05:43   #43
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

ahhh, someone is finally looking to take over from SWaRM as a training ally.. should be nice, i might be able to give a hand if needed, i dont think i want to play competive anymore.
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Unread 15 Sep 2005, 08:08   #44
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessio
I want to volunteer to help simulate the attacks on their planets..
I dont see this being a problem.

The reasons are twofold.

1) Alliance HC in the whole recognise that smaller players need help and dont bash smaller players.

2) I have the contacts concerned to have anyone twatted quickly and efficiently if they were to make war on a training alliance.
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Unread 15 Sep 2005, 08:12   #45
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

I think I need to elaborate a bit on the pateam support i mentioned.

The support i would be looking for would be an update of alliance features etc, something that anybody could request, and something that would help all.

I dont like jolt, jolt dont like me, and we certainly wont be working in any official partnership. This is for the game and the community, and not those people who are riping us all off to make easy money without thought for our wants and needs.
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Unread 15 Sep 2005, 08:37   #46
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
2) I have the contacts concerned to have anyone twatted quickly and efficiently if they were to make war on a training alliance.
This subject has arisen a fair few times over the course of this round, involving F-Crew. Its a split decision but personally I think that to be 'trained' you have to know what the real pa world is like, and any alliance HC taking players on would probably want to know if they are loyal through war-like situations.

However, I too will help with any twatting required.
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Unread 15 Sep 2005, 10:50   #47
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
2) I have the contacts concerned to have anyone twatted quickly and efficiently if they were to make war on a training alliance.
You seem to use this phrase quite a lot. If someone disagrees with you or upsets you in some way you threaten to or actually do get them bashed continuously until they cant fight back.

Why should your training alliance have special privaledges above and beyond that of a normal alliance that puts it in a position where it cannot be attacked? This gives you an unfair advantage over the other small alliances that are trying and in fact have been doing exactly the same thing as you since the year dot. Just because you are in a relative position of power with friends in PA team it shouldnt give you the right to make an alliances with powers no other has. Yes being in an alliance that never gets mass incoming would be nice, its not PA though and they wont be getting a taste for the real game or how to deal with those situations.
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Unread 15 Sep 2005, 11:12   #48
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

F-Crew , Orbit , Rock, Coven, Hidden Agenda, Scythe, ...
We allready have quite alot of training allies, all those who will get f*cked with a new pa-team approved training alliance.
What we really need is to offer a helping hand to some of those training allies/noob allies, show them how to set up a decend command structure, irc-channels, tools, ...
It would be better for new players aswell, caus then they'd have a choice of who to join, not being forced into a training ally.

BTW forest, how will you train new people if you use your contacts to twatt anyone that attacks the training ally?
A big part of training is learning to deal with incomings & if you won't have incs, they're only gonna get half trained or something, so that's not good now is it?
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Unread 15 Sep 2005, 12:32   #49
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
This subject has arisen a fair few times over the course of this round, involving F-Crew. Its a split decision but personally I think that to be 'trained' you have to know what the real pa world is like, and any alliance HC taking players on would probably want to know if they are loyal through war-like situations.

However, I too will help with any twatting required.
Tbh it depends if hes talking about twating anyone who attacks or just people whom carry out cowardly attacks like the couple that your talking about on F-Crew this round. Its one thing to go after making a gain in someway but theres a line where it because more sinister. Take the HR attack for example where very few (if any) serious attacks were sent at the big members, what was sent was just tie up the ships kind of attacks. The big multi wave incoming was left for our small players to put up with, we would see our sub 250k people getting 3+ waves , each wave of multipel attackers whom were just below the level where they could attack, each with massivly overkilled fleets and each having SK's in their fleet. These planets if they meant to or not were sending fleets designed to drive these players out of the game and if its such attacks only that Forest wishes to get the attackers 'twated' for then thats a good thing, however if hes deciding that every single attack no matter how fair should be twated then hes in the wrong as you learn from the incoming and as long as it doesnt cripple them they will almost always get back up and go on fighting and be stronger for it
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Unread 15 Sep 2005, 12:46   #50
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Re: New alliance for newer players - R15 Your community needs YOU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!

BTW forest, how will you train new people if you use your contacts to twatt anyone that attacks the training ally?
A big part of training is learning to deal with incomings & if you won't have incs, they're only gonna get half trained or something, so that's not good now is it?
I didnt say that.

I said anyone who made war, and was after a direct quote by someone saying he would hunt for the co-ords. That insinuated that he woudl deliberetly look to twat us, and that would be bad for all concerned.
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