Is the attackoriented PA ruining the game?

[Kargool]

The last two rounds I've noticed the heavy emphasis that Kal and the rest of the PA crew has put on a attackoriented game. While I at times enjoys the new way of playing I still bring myself to wonder, is the defence part getting neglected ruining the comminuty based way of playing? We had alot of people who enjoys being around the game, talking and being together, but what is going on? The summer takes abit of the blame, but the difficulty of getting defence for the people getting attacked also makes me think that people isnt up longer to defend, because there isnt much to earn from it.
Now I remember the times when people stayed up to defend each others, and to help when the players getting attacked needed it. I see a decrease in atleast the semi big alliances having the same problem.

Now, Kal, you have yourself said that you prefer an attackoriented style of PA, this seems to make it easier for people to play the game, and people dont need to be as active as before. What still makes me wonder is are we starting to see a change in the way people play this game? Seeing as you dont need to be on IRC anymore really, just to login to join an alliance attack, or just to attack on your own.

The defence is what I remember mostly from the old rounds. Waiting at nigths talking to people either in the alliance or outside the alliance, now its mostly quiet at nights.. Very quiet and not many active on. You might say, that the game is getting quite boring..

What I would like to know is:


- Will there be more emphasis on defence in the coming rounds?
- Are there anyone else feeling the same problem? (maybe not the top 4 alliances)
- Do the community want an attackfocused game only, or do we want to make defending profitable again?
- What other means of actions does the other alliances take to keep the activity up at nights?

[Dotatrix]

Originally Posted by Kargool

Are there anyone else feeling the same problem? (maybe not the top 4 alliances)

Me and also my gal mate: "<tanzytee> bored of this round already " There are alot more i assume

[Kal]

how does one make defence more worthwhile withotu detractiong from attacks. I fully agree that getting thoose tought def calls covered etc can help build communites, and people become needed on irc again - but its getting the roids that people enjoy on the personal level is it not?

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by Kal

how does one make defence more worthwhile withotu detractiong from attacks. I fully agree that getting thoose tought def calls covered etc can help build communites, and people become needed on irc again - but its getting the roids that people enjoy on the personal level is it not?

Well, keeping the roids is also a very important part of the game. If you keep losing your roids as a member of an medium sized alliance you start to stop caring, and eventually you will loose intrest of the game. So I think that the defencepart needs to be made better. The community is slowly fading in activity, so maybe its time to start rethinking the way the way its going, make it more profitable to defend, and the activity at nights might get higher. A good PA player comes on IRC to talk to friends etc and to help out the others in his alliance to do good. A bad PA player only cares for himself and his own roids, he will eventually get roided, and loose interest of the game. That's why we need to get the community back and running..

[Kal]

thing is someone does have to be loosing fro someone else to be gaining, its the nature of warfare - so the loosers allways get upset, so we allwyas have upset players - unless people realise that loosing their roids isn;t that important as they can easily get them back

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by Kal

thing is someone does have to be loosing fro someone else to be gaining, its the nature of warfare - so the loosers allways get upset, so we allwyas have upset players - unless people realise that loosing their roids isn;t that important as they can easily get them back

But yet you are missing the point. The fact that with the more attackoriented style of PA we might stand to loose the activity on IRC and in the community. That's where the problem lies imho. We will get an less active memberbase in PA who isnt that much around anymore.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Kargool

But yet you are missing the point. The fact that with the more attackoriented style of PA we might stand to loose the activity on IRC and in the community. That's where the problem lies imho. We will get an less active memberbase in PA who isnt that much around anymore.

i'm not missing the point, I understand that concern - but the game rellying on irc activity is somewhat bad for it as well, it cuts down the potential market for the game and forces the less active away

[wakey]

If anything the attacking nature of modern PA is the saviour to the game. The only problem it has is with 'dinosaurs' whom are closed minded and dont want to adapt. If you open your mind and put the effort into getting those around you over the old mindset you open yourself upto a game thats alot less sole destroying and alot more rewarding.

When it comes to defence you are placing yourself into a losing situation. If the attacker lands theres losses either roids, ships or both which means you lose score. Now when you are on the end of this alot no matter how good your community is the player will start to think about leaving the game as its just too much work for so much pain. Basically defence is something that takes your future in the game and places it into the hands of your attacker, attacks whom are often frankly idiots intent of running you into the ground.

Now attacking however is something thats normally a gaining situation and is one where your future is in your hands. If you run your fleet into defence its your fault no-one elses. But anyway attacking is one of the most rewarding areas in the game, theres nothing more pleasing than landing on planet twice your size and taking max cap. And the gains you make are often a more thhan adequate offset to any defence dissapointment. I mean if you gain 200k score its alot less of a knock to ind your down a few hundred roids or ship because the gains cover the losses. Yes losing roids and ships is annoying but you now dont have the third prong of finding yourself fall a thousand ranking places, in fact your will probally go up.

The small/meduim alliance would struggle to defend these calls anyway so a more defensive game would if anything to make thinsg stagnate more rather than the fluid movement we have now which keeps things ticking over alot better. And an attacking game doesnt have to mean lost communitues, staying up will always be advantagousl and attacking is just as much id a community building tool as it still requires that ability to come together as one

[Wandows]

an interesting idea might be to add XP for defending the same way you get XP for getting roids on attack. Only with defending you get XP for each roid you manage to save. This might be a solid factor or depending on the attackers value compared to the target value, but it would surely make defence more interesting. An XP factor lower than the XP factor would be adviced, but getting XP for preventing a person to cap rounds would be an interesting idea.

Example:
(because i am lazy we assume all planets involved have an equal value)

def XP factor is 5, capped at 10. Say you have a target with 1000 roids and a attacker who send 400 mosquito´s that cap 200 roids. However, defence kills 100 mosquito´s, stopping the attacker from gaining some roids, he gets 150 roids instead of 50. This means the attacker gets a total of 1500 XP for the gained roids, the defence however gets 250 XP for preventing 50 roids (its calced from the total of roids the attack could have taken with his pods & maxcap)from being stolen. The xp would ofcourse be destributed in fleetvalue involved, for both the attackers (from stolen roids XP) and the defenders (XP from preventing roids from being stolen)

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by Kal

i'm not missing the point, I understand that concern - but the game rellying on irc activity is somewhat bad for it as well, it cuts down the potential market for the game and forces the less active away

That argument I quite dont get, wasnt the main activity before also on IRC?

Back when there was alot more players playing PA.

Originally Posted by Wandows

Xp for def

Yes, i fully support that idea.

[wakey]

XP for defence is one of these things thats good in theory, in practice its simply unworkable. The only way to assign it could be based on saved roids but that leaves it open to abuse.

Not only that but it ignores the fact that most defence missions never happen which is exactly why salvage isnt a great defence incentive now as the battle probally wont happen

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by wakey

Not only that but it ignores the fact that most defence missions never happen which is exactly why salvage isnt a great defence incentive now as the battle probally wont happen

I disagree with you there, because every attack is also somewhat xp oriented and you wont know for sure if you are landing or not. XP could also be given for killed/emp/stolen ships.

[Wandows]

Originally Posted by wakey

XP for defence is one of these things thats good in theory, in practice its simply unworkable. The only way to assign it could be based on saved roids but that leaves it open to abuse.

Thats what i did no? :P

Not only that but it ignores the fact that most defence missions never happen which is exactly why salvage isnt a great defence incentive now as the battle probally wont happen

It might be true that most defence won't happen, but in the case of saving roids from being captured it does reward ppl for defending even if they don't stop all roids from being stole, in effect this could lead to more battles where both attack and defence are present and it rewards losing ships for defence aswell as you still get XP from it (given you atleast save some roids). I am not quite sure how this could be worked out in a decent formula, but it is possible never the less.

[Shyne]

While I partly agree with Kargool, wakey's post is very true.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Kargool

Blah blah blah

When was the last time you heard someone cry 'stagnation'? Here's a hint: it was before the 'attack oriented game' mantra started getting chanted in the PAteam corner.

Let's face it, PA is killing PA.

[Nadar]

I thought this game was about fighting, so what's wrong with attacking? The more you attack, the more likely you are to get a good rank. If you sit back and defend a lot you sure as hell won't hold a good rank at end of round. If alliance A attacked alliance B, then alliance B should fight them back, not just sit there defending themselves while doing their regular gal-attacks.

Attacking is the best defence you know..

[Appocomaster]

I agree with Kal to some extent, and with wakey and Banned.
It's more attack-related in nature because attacking is almost as much fun as stealing (and the two go well together ), it takes less time, and it means more people can still play PA and compete for a reasonable place. These days, more and more people are playing high graphics things where you kill eachother instead of browser based games where you kill each other, because they CAN, and so the userbase for Planetarion is declining, because people find these things more attractive, and those that don't get exiled around and loose interest, or don't have time to play any more. While I know how important IRC activity can be, making defending more attractive isn't going to really going to force larger numbers of people on IRC at night. I think it's better to encourage an attack based game where people get landed on and loose roids and ships(if they don't prelaunch them), while keeping XP, than one where every attack gets blocked and people get really bored and stop playing. I know one player who spent his first 2-3 weeks of the game in #support, and talking to his galaxy mates, worked out most of the game, and got bored with it by the end of the round. This is the issue I think we need to work on - by mid/end round, all those not competing for the top spots have nothing left to compete for.

This is one of the reasons I think in the next round or two, the game could become slightly more multi dimensional, to keep the interest of more players. Honor ratings (sort of like Soverign's XP idea here), based on people getting points from score(value)_of_attacker/score(value)_of_yourself*number_of_roids (hitting someone twice your score(value) and getting 100 roids gets you 200 points, etc) and one with the most points at the end of the round wins a credit. Or something - anything - else. Most things - number of scans / successful covert ops / times landed (with x% or more of your fleet) / amps / distorters / finance centres / refinaries / etc are a bit less involved with skill, and more with activity, so maybe they're not such a good idea, but others have suggested things such as special constructions (which is somewhere in suggestions but I can't find the thread), or adding a capture the flag aspect.
Someone even suggested an alliance league, and that might be possible - alliances apply, and then play speedgames against each other - say cluster 1 contains 2 alliances, cluster 2 contains 2 alliances, cluster 3 contains 2 alliances, etc, and ships aren't allowed outside of the cluster. Private galaxies, limited galaxy size, 5 galaxies each, 48 hours @ 5 minute ticks. Change who you play each weekend winner gets 5 credits, etc.

[Snurx]

Well, I'm quite bored as it is now. I've not been active for the last 3-4 days, due to reallife things (getting drunk, starting school) and so has not been awake at odd hours to send away my fleets or attack too much (just once every night). I've lost my whole mainattack fleet and over half of all my stolen co from this round, but all at my planet! People in my galaxy get fleetcatched, and still there is only a few of us that defend eachother. The attacking system is great, I've still got a "decent" score for such a lowbieplayer as myself, but there really need to be some carrot for defending. There are too many big ziks that just scavenge on the not so good parts of the universe (nobody would attack me purely for the roids), maybe the problem lies there?

I'm used to loosing roids, I've been losing roids all this round and theres not much to do about it. They get back, and it's good that they change hands often. However, now I won't even be able to properly rebuild. I know that it's "my" fault, since I've not been active, but if active means that I have too be up every night just to keep my fleet, it's not worth it for me anymore.

[noah02]

Sk is the only thing that pisses me off tbh in this attack orientated game :/
SK are suited to a more defensive game not attack one tbh.