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Unread 12 May 2016, 23:23   #101
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

The last time I saw that set in a discussion had lines like "maybe on a x-mas or summer round". And yes, that was with "inside sources".
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Unread 13 May 2016, 05:53   #102
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Apparently, from inside sources, this set could be the frontrunner for next round: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...iXk/edit#gid=0

Apart from the ship names, it looks like something new and exciting.
I think its pretty well balanced aswell in its own way
I like this stats, wouldnt use it on any normal round though. Its a bit too revolutionary for that, specially as it has nothing to do with the Races as we know em.
Id deffo want to play any speedgame or festive round with those.
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Unread 13 May 2016, 07:42   #103
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
Round 67 Ticks will start Friday, 27th May at 20:00 GMT and continue for 7 weeks.
Changes for this round will be announced closer to the time. Stats are available on http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats
Yes this is the cause of our confusion. It is clear that they announced BB's stats in that announcement yet even BB does not seem to think it likely that they will be the final set. You would think that the powers that be would at the very least tell the person who created the stats set that their set has been chosen wouldn't you? Moreover all the rumours since are about new sets or pat's none of which chimes with a final decision in favour of BBs.
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Unread 13 May 2016, 08:00   #104
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

I think we have to stop doubting and accept the set that was announced.
No way they would announce the wrong set and then not correct it for a week.
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Unread 13 May 2016, 08:42   #105
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
I think we have to stop doubting and accept the set that was announced.
No way they would announce the wrong set and then not correct it for a week.
Well i did ask appocomaster if the mafia had made up their mind, and he said that the statset wasnt decided on yet. Then again when i asked him when the round started he said in june, so he might not be up to date on anything

nevertheless, ive started to prepare to what will happend if it was to be chosen, as id want to play next round myself is that was to be the case.
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Unread 13 May 2016, 09:18   #106
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Talked to Jintao earlier this week and i can forward what he said.

It's most likely not the set at beta, but it's either the one at speedgame or xmas that will be run. Which of em wasn't decided then. Pats set was waiting on pat to look at it after jintao did some changes and morpheus set was being looked at as well.

The one BB posted link to is something jintao played with, and is very unlikely to be played in a regular round, but might be tried out during christmas round or something. As some posted out it would be fun to try something different. Would require a lot more thinking and planning then what regular sets does.

Personally I think xmas is the set that will be run.
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Unread 13 May 2016, 10:27   #107
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by Sandvold View Post
Talked to Jintao earlier this week and i can forward what he said.

It's most likely not the set at beta, but it's either the one at speedgame or xmas that will be run. Which of em wasn't decided then. Pats set was waiting on pat to look at it after jintao did some changes and morpheus set was being looked at as well.
Yep, this is the most likely reason for why he hasnt announced that the one pat made has been announced, because Pat is on vacation apparently. Jintao is alive, and reading the forums, just not participating in the discussion.
I would also put all my money, and then some at thats the PAt set that will be runned.
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Unread 13 May 2016, 14:03   #108
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Don't know if it's Jintaos changes to Pats set (at xmas), but the targeting feels a bit unbalanced now in that one and BS thanks to that a tad too powerful, especially compared to CR, otherwise it's in pretty decent shape imo.

Morphs set (at speedgame) has some questionable steal options to my liking and emp effs are way off the chart (again) causing some balance issues, but it ain't that far either.

Waiting with great interest which set is chosen, hopefully sometime soon so I get something to do while waiting for next round.
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Unread 13 May 2016, 15:00   #109
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by NoXiouS View Post
Morphs set (at speedgame).. emp effs are way off the chart (again) causing some balance issues
Off the chart is an odd way of phrasing too low which I assume you mean; they are a lot lower than Pat's or BB's sets. Clarification?
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Unread 13 May 2016, 15:21   #110
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
Off the chart is an odd way of phrasing too low which I assume you mean; they are a lot lower than Pat's or BB's sets. Clarification?
Thats something i checked and thought to be the case aswell.
The damage on "killing stuff" is way too high compared to the EMP efficient.
But i think M0 is damaged after last round, wich realy should be a pointer on how to figure out dmg/emp eff on any stats.
I think pat and mine have pretty equal effs, though mine perhaps should be rechecked(according to NoX) in the EMP vs FR/DE interaction?
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Unread 13 May 2016, 18:12   #111
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

I wouldn't say emp effs are low. When you get to 170%+ effs, it's imo high...

On another note, shipcosts final in that set?
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Unread 13 May 2016, 18:28   #112
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by NoXiouS View Post
I wouldn't say emp effs are low. When you get to 170%+ effs, it's imo high...

On another note, shipcosts final in that set?
Well its all about whats being targetted. If you can build FR and they can protect you vs everything and the have the overall init advantage, perhaps maybe the average eff should be 170% vs that ship, but say 160% average vs another class.

Going through a set and looking at eff without considering what type of ships/roidfleets they are up against is the wrong way to go at it
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Unread 13 May 2016, 19:29   #113
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by NoXiouS View Post
I wouldn't say emp effs are low. When you get to 170%+ effs, it's imo high...
Average on T1 excluding against SKs is 146%, the only MT set I seem to have the analysis saved from is round 57 where the average on T1 was 165%. Perhaps someone with more saved can help out?

Average on BB's is 163%
Average on Pat's is 168%

I agree with BB that a direct comparison of effs is potentially misleading but still it seems an odd criticism to level at m0's set when its' effs are much lower than the competition.
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Unread 13 May 2016, 19:43   #114
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
Average on T1 excluding against SKs is 146%, the only MT set I seem to have the analysis saved from is round 57 where the average on T1 was 165%. Perhaps someone with more saved can help out?

Average on BB's is 163%
Average on Pat's is 168%

I agree with BB that a direct comparison of effs is potentially misleading but still it seems an odd criticism to level at m0's set when its' effs are much lower than the competition.
well obviously my set has the "perfect" overall EMP eff, as i dont think anyone has ever put as much work into calculating previous/other sets to come up with the average should be around that.
I wouldnt want anyone to come up with the excuse that my EMP eff was wrong, and then not run my set
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Unread 13 May 2016, 20:02   #115
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

ofc I look at targeting as well, Cath emp targets everything, every class, all of them and all of the ships except spider (which are the only ship that has emp eff about the right level regards to other races imo, sadly it's such crap) are pretty nice and cheap too. Emp effs at that level and Cath selfcovering everything (well, terrans might have a chance spamming in to one class). Pod emp res is also way low imo, but hey, it's just me. When you pretty much selfcover a 2 man teamup with somewhat ease...
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Unread 13 May 2016, 20:36   #116
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

iīd comment if i knew about what set we are talking...

maybe it would be wise to post critism or questions in the correct thread

thanks
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Unread 14 May 2016, 10:42   #117
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by NoXiouS View Post
ofc I look at targeting as well, Cath emp targets everything, every class, all of them and all of the ships except spider (which are the only ship that has emp eff about the right level regards to other races imo, sadly it's such crap) are pretty nice and cheap too. Emp effs at that level and Cath selfcovering everything (well, terrans might have a chance spamming in to one class). Pod emp res is also way low imo, but hey, it's just me. When you pretty much selfcover a 2 man teamup with somewhat ease...
EMP eff "normaly" is about 160-165% T1.
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Unread 14 May 2016, 11:41   #118
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

One calls the emp EFF of avg 145% low, the other high

Make up ur minds
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Unread 14 May 2016, 17:44   #119
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

For ST Emp ships 160-170% is about right, For MT 140-150/ 90-100 is where it should be.
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Unread 14 May 2016, 20:03   #120
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

for once I agree with tia, first for everything I Guess
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Unread 14 May 2016, 20:25   #121
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by NoXiouS View Post
for once I agree with tia, first for everything I Guess
Well he is known for having a very narrow way of thinking.
General people should avoid listening to mafia people.

If say FR is targetted by FI/CO/CR/DE, should they have the same EFF as if they were only targetted by FI/CO in a ST stats?

Lets say the viper target FR, but terran dont have any FR ships, and ETD/Xan got FR wich is cloaked, should the eff be the same if it was ter and not xan having fr?
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Unread 14 May 2016, 20:36   #122
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

It's perfectly fine for some ships to have lower efficiencies than others.150-160% for T1 and 90-100% for T2 is about normal. Whether you think the effs should be at those numbers is a different matter.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
If say FR is targetted by FI/CO/CR/DE, should they have the same EFF as if they were only targetted by FI/CO in a ST stats?

Lets say the viper target FR, but terran dont have any FR ships, and ETD/Xan got FR wich is cloaked, should the eff be the same if it was ter and not xan having fr?
The whole point of averages is that some values are higher than the average, and some are lower. This is elementary school level math.
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Unread 14 May 2016, 21:01   #123
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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The whole point of averages is that some values are higher than the average, and some are lower. This is elementary school level math.

No, the whole point of averages is so the mafia can claim something is right and wrong, so we keep runnibg similiar sets over and over again.

If the class team up of a EMP teamup is low inits instead of high inits, should the eff be the same?
Having Xan/Cat team up with low init vs Zik/Cat team up with high inits is not the same.
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Unread 14 May 2016, 21:24   #124
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

I don't know why you're listing reasons why ships may deviate from the average.
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Unread 14 May 2016, 22:47   #125
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I don't know why you're listing reasons why ships may deviate from the average.
But then again, the mafia would never "know why" anyone would be listing reasons for something being wrong or right in any stat set.

With a new head in stats, who actualy seems to not be one of the mafia, we have gotten ourself "guidelines" on what stats is acceptable or not, ofc the issue being no sets(except yours) was ever acceptable.

Rogues/p3nguins/TheoDD/Jintao(stats chief) seems to be focusing on offensive stats, where all races have equal solo options. Not focusing on allie strats, or team up synergy/power.

Tiamata has a very mathematical approach, every race/ship class is more or less equal in amount of ships fireing at it, and the amount of ships in that class.
If say terran dont have a DE, it could be a very big problem and adding a DE ship to terran wich people would most likely not build would be the solution.
Also the average EMP eff very often is the same accross the board, no matter what "strat option" is favourable.
This would ofc work very well if on signup races where equaly spread.

My approach is very anti mafia, ive started in the opposite end, on what "allie strats" is avaible, and try make all of em(CO vs FR vs DE vs CR vs BS vs MIX) more or less an even fight.
This ofc has been upsetting the mafia, "WHY DOES XAN HAVE 3 PODS ITS OP", or "WHY CANT ZIK SOLO ANYTHING, NOBODY WILL GO ZIK", and a lot of other excuses why a set like this(not necessary mine) would not be playable.

Ive been offering a my set(small changes every time ofc), for 5 rounds, and i have made sure my emp average is more or less on point. If Tia/NoXiouS claims that "this is how emp eff is suppose to be", i mustve miscalced the rounds wich i compared my sets towards.
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Unread 14 May 2016, 23:35   #126
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

My r50 stats had an average 154 EMP eff T1, mean 156, in a range from 115 to 190, and an average of 98 EMP eff T2, mean 91, in a range from 78 to 124. That seems be about what people want, since they've been used 3 times, though undoubtedly with some changes to these effs after the first time. I can't be bothered looking it up for any other sets. Call it an exercise for the reader.

So, if your primary interest is getting your stats accepted, then the above numbers seem a good guideline. If, however, you just want to jerk off and repeatedly list the fundamental character flaws of everyone who disagrees with you, then by all means hold firm.

And for the record, that 115-190 range for T1 seems really wide to me. As in, it should probably have been narrower.
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Unread 14 May 2016, 23:55   #127
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Rogues/p3nguins/TheoDD/Jintao(stats chief) seems to be focusing on offensive stats, where all races have equal solo options.
What does TheoDD have to do with this? So far as I can see he has not made a substantive contribution on any of the suggested stats sets for this round.

And Rogues? An alliance dead for rounds and rounds now? So far as I am aware no one in Rogues has ever had much influence over stats, the closest would probably be me, and like you my own proposed stats set (a few rounds ago now) was shot down. Moreover when it did exist almost all the ppl who worked on strategies in Rogues were defensive players rather than offensive ones. You simply degrade your own points by bringing up such things.
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Unread 15 May 2016, 00:02   #128
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

As a general message if you're going to comment on stats, it's best to keep politics out of it as it detracts from the main topic of discussion (stats).
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Unread 15 May 2016, 00:03   #129
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
What does TheoDD have to do with this? So far as I can see he has not made a substantive contribution on any of the suggested stats sets for this round.

And Rogues? An alliance dead for rounds and rounds now? So far as I am aware no one in Rogues has ever had much influence over stats, the closest would probably be me, and like you my own proposed stats set (a few rounds ago now) was shot down. Moreover when it did exist almost all the ppl who worked on strategies in Rogues were defensive players rather than offensive ones. You simply degrade your own points by bringing up such things.
Rogues is Krypton/reapersix, pretty aggresive posters.
TheoDD is a a seasoned turnip, wich used to come into the discussion with comments like what i described.
My points still remains the same, im not runningg for a popular guy vote.
By real sources, this is how it stands:

5% chance of being run: http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats
30% chance of being run : http://xmas.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats
30% chance of being run: http://speedgame.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats
25% chance of being https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...iXk/edit#gid=0

I dont like to keep people in the dark, but the set in beta.planetarion is NOT being ran.
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Unread 15 May 2016, 00:23   #130
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

If you're upset about suggestions then go after them on merit rather than use alliance tags to beat people over the head with. We have AD for that.
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Unread 15 May 2016, 00:53   #131
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by lokken View Post
If you're upset about suggestions then go after them on merit rather than use alliance tags to beat people over the head with. We have AD for that.
Now sorry man, i dont remeber voting you to be a "stats expert"?
Can you please explain me why alliance "tag merit" should be "either banned or accept" for posters in this section?
You are a ****ing dinosaur, and im quiet suprised why you are not removed yet, as when you keep adding comments discussiom where you are a fecking unbanable dinorsaurs with ideas/opinions wich dosnt with this century?
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Unread 15 May 2016, 12:42   #132
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Now sorry man, i dont remeber voting you to be a "stats expert"?
Can you please explain me why alliance "tag merit" should be "either banned or accept" for posters in this section?
Sure. This is strategic discussions, and comments on the stats should be about whether they are balanced and what styles of play they will attract. Now you can use alliances as say context to illustrate playing in a certain way, but using alliances to accuse people of having some kind of agenda is just not done for SD. Decisions on the stats should largely be made in the absence of politics.
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Unread 15 May 2016, 21:54   #133
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Both Patrikc's and M0rph3us's sets are of equal quality if you ask me. Both have some ups and downs to them.

Patrikc's set: Click here
M0rph3us's set: Click here

Currently i'm favoring Patrikc's set to be run in R67 unless someone can find a very good reason to pick Morph3us's set instead.

PS: See this as a last chance for user feedback before final descission is made.

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Unread 15 May 2016, 22:19   #134
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Arent your links mixed up?
Xmas one is Patrikcs?
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Unread 15 May 2016, 22:30   #135
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

If both are of equal quality what is the reasoning behind heavily favouring one over the other?
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Unread 15 May 2016, 22:39   #136
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
Arent your links mixed up?
Xmas one is Patrikcs?
Thank you for pointing that out, fixed it
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Unread 15 May 2016, 22:50   #137
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
If both are of equal quality what is the reasoning behind heavily favouring one over the other?
Honestly i'm "favoring", not "heavyily favouring" Pat's set over M0's because Pat submitted his set 2 rounds ago while M0 submitted it 2 weeks ago.

But honestly I'm fine running either set, but if i have to pick between 2 "equal" sets i'll favor seniority because Pat has had more time to balance out things & has been waiting longer.
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Unread 16 May 2016, 09:19   #138
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

I prefer Patrikc's set because it has Zik, and the lack of a fifth race in M0's set heavily encourages Fr or Cr ally strats over Fi, Co, De, Bs, which have no teamup options. High risk of leading to a very static universe.

Has anything changed with regards to SKs since last round, or can you still only use them against planets in alliances you're at war with? I ask because if I'm only OK with in-class SKs if nothing changed.
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Unread 16 May 2016, 13:09   #139
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I prefer Patrikc's set because it has Zik, and the lack of a fifth race in M0's set heavily encourages Fr or Cr ally strats over Fi, Co, De, Bs, which have no teamup options. High risk of leading to a very static universe.

Has anything changed with regards to SKs since last round, or can you still only use them against planets in alliances you're at war with? I ask because if I'm only OK with in-class SKs if nothing changed.
You probably meant that only FR and DE teamups are possible, and FI,CO,CR,BS have none such options.

Regarding SK's, i wouldnt put them into roiding class if the last round change to their usage would be reverted. So yes, i was assuming that SK's can only be used against alliances in WAR when making my set of stats.
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Unread 16 May 2016, 15:02   #140
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
You probably meant that only FR and DE teamups are possible, and FI,CO,CR,BS have none such options.
Ah, yes. Somehow I assumed Xan would have Fi pods and didn't bother looking closely enough. I still don't like it, but at least that makes some sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
Regarding SK's, i wouldnt put them into roiding class if the last round change to their usage would be reverted. So yes, i was assuming that SK's can only be used against alliances in WAR when making my set of stats.
I assumed that was the reason for both of you to put them in roiding classes. I just haven't heard anything, and communication has never been PA Team's strong suit, so I wanted to double check. It would be a simple and self-contained change anyway, so it's not really a big deal.
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Unread 16 May 2016, 16:33   #141
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

About pat stats

How we stop BS? Obviously etd will covop Bs pods...
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Unread 16 May 2016, 16:39   #142
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Drake eff is lame against BS
Roach ****ing strong eff...

Cant see a way to stop pure BS fleets...
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Unread 16 May 2016, 17:34   #143
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

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Ah, yes. Somehow I assumed Xan would have Fi pods and didn't bother looking closely enough. I still don't like it, but at least that makes some sense.
YES, Xan have Fi pods. You don't make much sense man.
Feels like you looked at that set as long as it takes to realise there is no ZIK.
Fair enough, disliking the set because there is no ZIK is valid enough of a reason.

Just don't make a fool out of yourself trying to talk about anything else set-related then...
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Unread 16 May 2016, 18:26   #144
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Urgh. The way I misread it was Cr/Fi, not Fi/De. Your response made me think (through no-one's fault but my own) that I misread it some other way.

I looked closely enough to see that there were 8 pods. What classes those are exactly is a side-issue. And yes, I refrained from giving more detailed feedback and/or criticism precisely because I didn't look closely. And even that doesn't matter, because I expect people to consider my arguments, not my opinion.
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Unread 16 May 2016, 22:04   #145
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
Drake eff is lame against BS
Roach ****ing strong eff...

Cant see a way to stop pure BS fleets...
http://xmas.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=h9ieh6ykhjhg15j

De body's most of BS since Ter BS doesn't have alot of punch behind it and the etd BS team only helps vs zik
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Unread 16 May 2016, 23:30   #146
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

I have already stated that I don't like pat's set and that is still the case. It has lots of ships that seem pointless, an odd cat fr hole (which I acknowledge has to a some extent been fixed), is too close to ST for my liking (a purely personal pet hate), and it is very fort based. Out of 10 fleets the most obvious fleetbuilds (to me anyway, I accept this is a little subjective) have their anti fi firing down in 7 cases and anti co in 7 cases. This of course might have the result of making fi co much more viable than they initially look as there may well be little ally def available.

I have to admit that someone (I presume Jintao rather than pat) has made some effort to meet my criticisms for which I thank you. I see the Cat spider has been made T1 fr with co added as T2 for the Widow which seems a sensible change.
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Unread 16 May 2016, 23:45   #147
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

this stats too confusing after a easy ST one haha

DE & FR firing 4 classes etc.. too much things to check =p

but idd.. a tag playing heavy DE can handle BS.. but any other tag will suffer to stop it... imho
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Unread 16 May 2016, 23:54   #148
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Something minor to fix; emp res of the rambler is much lower than its escorting fi. http://xmas.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=njtd93iams0jb5o at the moment all ramblers can be empd when only three quarters of sylphs are empd and just over half of creditors. I tend to agree that the pods should be the first to be fully empd as it is very annoying to emp all the combat ships and have pods slip through but this disparity is too great.
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Unread 17 May 2016, 16:22   #149
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
I have to admit that someone (I presume Jintao rather than pat) has made some effort to meet my criticisms for which I thank you. I see the Cat spider has been made T1 fr with co added as T2 for the Widow which seems a sensible change.
Spider was always T1 Fr in my set (Cath needs it). Jintao suggested moving Co to the Widow entirely rather than a T2 on the Spider. The Spider definitely doesn't need Co T1 as it was before, I think Xan Co will have trouble enough with 4 Fi anti-Co.

Agreed on the Rambler. ERes seems to have been changed a fair bit since last time I tinkered with it; Illusion's way too high now, for example.
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Unread 18 May 2016, 08:23   #150
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Re: R67 Shipstats proposals

Only thing disturbing me a bit more than anything else in Pats set is the targeting being a tad unfair towards the lower hulls... FI and CO targeted by each other and FRDE, FRDE targeted by each other and FICO + CR on FR, BS on DE, CR targeted by FR and BS, BS targeted by DE and CR. I can live with that ofc, but kinda makes me feel that (borrowing BBs words) the "mid" and "low" tier alliances will mass hulls 3.
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