booji stats proposals

[BloodyButcher]

Not to try insult the effort of booji, but the more i look at these stats, the more i think they should be scrapped

[Tiamat101]

Originally Posted by BloodyButcher

Not to try insult the effort of booji, but the more i look at these stats, the more i think they should be scrapped

I never thought i'd be in this situation where i'd be agreeing with BB but I also think these stats should be scrapped. Too many things going wrong with them.

[booji]

I have asked, and been given permission by, Appocomaster to withdraw my set.

Unfortunately I have reached a point where although I quite like the set I do not know how to fix the criticisms brought up on this board without creating a whole new set of problems, which I suspect that like my last two sets of fixes would simply create more problems. I am disappointed that this is the case and sorry that I am unable to turn this set into something that people can agree would be fun and interesting to play with.

Thank you very much to everyone who has given me constructive criticism here, on IRC, and on telegram. Your input has been invaluable even if sometimes rather contradictory. I hope that whatever set we end up for round 62 ends up considerably better than my failed attempt.

Once I have digested all the lessons from this set I will have ago at making another, different, set for round 63 that will hopefully have less problems and a more positive response so you have not seen the last of my silly stats ideas.

[BloodyButcher]

There is at least 3 more sets thats been put forward, so i do think rather sorting out your set for r63 would be better

[booji]

I have no intention of sorting the set out. As I said I am at an impasse and dont expect it will be solved just by me going away from it for a few days. As I mentioned a few posts back to mz we simply dont see eye to eye on it (not just mz and I, I don't even understand yours and tia's criticisms let alone have some idea how to resolve them) and as such I'm going to leave it there rather than attempting futile fixes and engaging in a noisy argument. Instead it will be a completely different set. Yes this will likely take a lot longer but it will also be considerably more enjoyable than attempting to second guess further criticism of this set.

[loophole]

Sad. I, myself liked a lot about this set. Sure there were some things I thought would cause problems, but you'll never please everyone and there will never be a perfect Stat set. Period. The main thing to aim for is every race being playable. I didn't see a race here that was downright unplayable. Zik was the closest, but almost always is. I'd still like this set to be considered if booji is willing to let appocco put the magic spin on it given no better alternatives. Which is a good possibility with 2 weeks before round start.

When does the new set hit beta? Are there any others?

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by loophole

Sad. I, myself liked a lot about this set. Sure there were some things I thought would cause problems, but you'll never please everyone and there will never be a perfect Stat set. Period. The main thing to aim for is every race being playable. I didn't see a race here that was downright unplayable. Zik was the closest, but almost always is. I'd still like this set to be considered if booji is willing to let appocco put the magic spin on it given no better alternatives. Which is a good possibility with 2 weeks before round start.

When does the new set hit beta? Are there any others?

Joseph got one almost done.
Also ive said id be putting mine up to be run, even though Appoco said that Mz had decided that stat set would never be runned.
Id also suggest rerunning some old stat set perhaps

[Mzyxptlk]

I make no such decisions.

[Joseph]

appoco said he already have 2 sets being worked for next round (probably blue and booji) and he will take one of them.

so i keep mine for another round..

btw, i understand blue stats, makes no need for covop ships (a way ppl looks at agressive for the game wealth) and a very classical set os stats.
booji too, problem is, this stats are not the one ppl use to play, dont allow all strats to be played. and the ships getting fired and not being able to fire too sounds really strange, even if its all emp.. not that it cant work. a lot of strange things comes to be good ones.

[loophole]

Almost and maybe this or maybe that? You distinctly said there were 3 sets earlier being proposed in addition to the 2 we've seen already. Do you ever consider what you type?

I just what to see sets people have submitted somewhere. It doesn't have to be on beta to be considered.

[booji]

Originally Posted by Joseph

btw, i understand blue stats, makes no need for covop ships (a way ppl looks at agressive for the game wealth) and a very classical set os stats.

I personally disliked Blue's set, iirc horrible for defence - particularly for dcs, very good for xans. It was the reason why I started making a set because I feared we would end up with the set Blue_Esper had up.

Originally Posted by Joseph

booji too, problem is, this stats are not the one ppl use to play, dont allow all strats to be played. and the ships getting fired and not being able to fire too sounds really strange, even if its all emp.. not that it cant work. a lot of strange things comes to be good ones.

No sense of imagination! If we want to avoid stagnation they then stats are the only thing we are really able to innovate on, and that is of course within quite tightly bound limits hence my attempt to have some more unconventional ideas. Unfortunately the majority of people agreed with you.

[BloodyButcher]

Atleast we can all agree that blues stats looks horribole boring, and not what we think would suit the current state of the game.

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk

I make no such decisions.

Thats not what Appoco said.
We all know he dont look at the stats preround

[Mzyxptlk]

I spoke to Appoco. He said he has never made any statement involving me and the word 'decide'. I trust his word over yours.

As for what "we all know", I think what you mean is "I know". Unfortunately, what you know is wrong, and by now that has ceased to surprise me. I know for a fact that Appoco not only looks at the stats, but personally picks the set to use. I know this because he sometimes talks to people while doing so, and sometimes I'm one of those people. I then give my opinions, but do not make the decision.

Are we done here?

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk

I spoke to Appoco. He said he has never made any statement involving me and the word 'decide'. I trust his word over yours.

As for what "we all know", I think what you mean is "I know". Unfortunately, what you know is wrong, and by now that has ceased to surprise me. I know for a fact that Appoco not only looks at the stats, but personally picks the set to use. I know this because he sometimes talks to people while doing so, and sometimes I'm one of those people. I then give my opinions, but do not make the decision.

Are we done here?

[01:55] <[BowS]B-Butch3r> how many stats makers u got this round?
[09:58] <Appocomaster> 2
[09:59] <Appocomaster> and honestly, the approach you took with your stats - I spoke with some others like mz and he said he didn't think his set should have got through (and you based your stats on his). just not sure it's the right approach
[18:19] <[BowS]B-Butch3r> wich approach?

...

To me it says that "even though a set has been runned two times before, its been decided that your set wont go through", hence why it wont even be considerered.

past rounds:
http://beta.planetarion.com/history/...?id=4&round=30
http://beta.planetarion.com/history/...?id=4&round=51

....

Appocomaster hasnt played this game in ages, and he is in no position to decide wether a stats set is good or not.
R60 IsildurX stat set(infamously known as the worst stat set ever), was choosen over M0s set, wich turned out to be the best set in recent years this round, it just shows that who ever keeps telling Appoco wich set he is to choose should be fired.

I did not offer my set this round to begin with, but since there was no other option than this booji set(wich to me seems to be far off what we are looking for), and blue_espers set id be willing to give it ago again

[booji]

Originally Posted by BloodyButcher

... but since there was no other option than this booji set(wich to me seems to be far off what we are looking for)...

Here you are making an assumption of you = we again, i'll have you know my stats set is quite close to what I am looking for!

It might potentially be useful for the community define what is meant by 'what we are looking for' but I don't think you should be the only one making that determination.

On your stats I can't remember them that well but don't remember thinking them a disaster; they are likely at a similar stage to mine? Some things going for them but no agreement on whether they are yet balanced or how to actually get them there.

[Mzyxptlk]

What Appoco said there is accurate, I didn't think your set should've been picked. That doesn't mean I made the decision. Additionally, the notion that conversations between me and Appoco involve me stating how things are going to be and Appoco meekly acquiescing is hilarious.

[M0RPH3US]

Originally Posted by BloodyButcher

Appocomaster hasnt played this game in ages, and he is in no position to decide wether a stats set is good or not.
R60 IsildurX stat set(infamously known as the worst stat set ever), was choosen over M0s set, wich turned out to be the best set in recent years this round, it just shows that who ever keeps telling Appoco wich set he is to choose should be fired.

to be fair - my set suggested for r60 and the one getting used r61 didnt have much in common then the classes for every race
targeting got overhauled completely (same class firing) as an example

for r62 stats i think its sad we see booji's drop out - cause neither the set of butcher nor blue's look any appealing to me
both are way too unexpiered for my liking and just a copy of a copy of a copy

if i was appoco and no one else was offering a version - i´d look through past round statistics and pick one where the racial distribution seemed the most even - cause before we waste energy fiddling on a copy of a copy - we could just go with a copy

though personally i hope someone else has the time and energy to come up with a set (preferably one that does surprise to some extent)

[BloodyButcher]

I wont be offering my set unless i know its gonna get played this time, its the 3rd time ive polished it

[TheoDD]

Originally Posted by BloodyButcher

I wont be offering my set unless i know its gonna get played this time, its the 3rd time ive polished it

you seem offended, but yet feel it is ok to offend others...
what will it take to make you stop offering your opinions on the forums?
(im overly tired of your double standards and knowitall opinions)

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by TheoDD

you seem offended, but yet feel it is ok to offend others...
what will it take to make you stop offering your opinions on the forums?
(im overly tired of your double standards and knowitall opinions)

Nah im not offended, but for my own pride id rather follow up a round where isildurx had stats, than a round that was a sucsesss

[TheoDD]

Originally Posted by BloodyButcher

Nah im not offended, but for my own pride id rather follow up a round where isildurx had stats, than a round that was a sucsesss

what pride would that be?

[TheoDD]

And as for booji's stats, its starting to grow on me
:thumbsup:

[Joseph]

Originally Posted by TheoDD

knowitall opinions)

Knowitall.BBhq.com

[M0RPH3US]

for booji set:

i´d move pegasus init to 5 and cutter init to 4

at the same time make the pirate T1 CR and T2 BS (steal) - it will force terrans to invest in wyvern for attacking purposes instead of beeing able to just rely on dragon

also you could add a BS for cath firing t1 on BS with init10 (normal ship)

this should fix some of those terran issues i´d think

P.s. i hope booji continues with his set

[Joseph]

booji, now i have a better look on your stats.
if u allow some questions, and forgive if they was already asked and answered, maybe u can enlight me again.

what u plan to do against a DE? despite vipers and t2 ranger, i cant imagine something stoping them at alliance eta.

to stop FI u did a lot of good CO ships, plus ingal pegasus.
to stop CO u did phantom plus ingal pegasus
to stop FR u did ghost, scarabs plus ingal mantis and tycoons
to stop DE u did nothing that kill them, plus ingal marauders
to stop CR u did BW and bombers, plus dragon and guardian ingal
to stop BS u did BW t2, and own BS to stop them.

so i find out that the worst problem still on DE, as any other attack u can find a way to repeal, and De dont.


edit. i do enjoy the possibility of going covop and building new kind of fleets, we have very few options to play the game, if u cut this one, make ir worst.
u demand almost all alliances to play in fortress, as u made a lot of ships that helps ingal but not ally eta.

[loophole]

De was also my biggest worry on these stats. Cath de targets too much imo. I see why you want it like that, but without 2 tick defence it's too much. There are no fighters targeting de. There are no bs targeting de. Just drop t2 on both cath de. Add a 3rd de t1 fi t2 bs. Make eff 130/90 or so. make cath spread a little for the privilege of free firing on 2 classes.

Make scarab and ranger init 2. Then viper can actually do some good. That's the lightest touch I can think of. For a heavier touch give ranger the init advantage as well. If de still looks too strong give tarantula init advantage and then clip the cath cr a bit by giving guardian advantage.

Third option drop cath eff again across the board to discourage playing cath.

haven't done any calcs or anything, but hoping you keep at it, so those are are my 3 quick ideas just working around the emp ships. Tuesday I'll have a more serious look.

[lince]

Seeing that these stats are a bit stalled, and since i like the concepts on them, here's my small contribution to make them r62 stats:

Considering that:
i'm not fun of two 0-loss ships;
cath DE seems an issue;
ter BS seems an issue;

my proposals, without emp eff consideration:
Roach t1 DE same init as scarab
drop t2 on Black Widow
Viper( or any other name) BS targetting BS same init as wyvern or higher, less a/c and d/c than wyvern

also:
Broker emp init 3
guardian t1 CR t2 BS init 22

Cons:
no 0-loss def ship
no DE targetting BS
no CO targetting DE
Etd able to have 4 roiding fleets with stolen CR or BS pods

Pro's:
Ter BS attack fleet can't just build Dragons and pods, have to build a few Wyvern;
Roach plus Bolt can be a decent defence vs DE, since both are out of attack fleets.

Let the "trolling" begin ...

[BaasB]

I dislike haunt being part of the roiding fleet...

[lince]

that's probably a misplace, it was DE when Xan had a FR roiding fleet, should be FR now

[booji]

Originally Posted by lince

Seeing that these stats are a bit stalled

To be clear the stats are not stalled they have been withdrawn. I do not intend to come back to them. They are still on the beta server because no one has come forward with another stats set to put up to fiddle with and Blue_Esper has already finished with it so does not need the beta server again.

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk

Now, both Ter fleets murder everything the universe is likely to throw at them. Ter De would've been alright before if the 0-loss issue had been fixed, but now Ter Fr is about as strong as Ter Bs was, and Ter Bs has been improved beyond even that high peak.

Compared to:

Originally Posted by Joseph

what u plan to do against a DE? despite vipers and t2 ranger, i cant imagine something stoping them at alliance eta.

It seems difficult for me to see how both ter fr and de can be overpowered at the same time considering that each are the main defence against the other. I personally think that fr is ok on attack and pretty decent on defence. De is very good on attack but is really open on defence so it balances out rather.

I don’t personally think ter bs is a problem as it can be solved quite simply by having the Marauder T2 on bs. This then makes bs a comparatively weak fleet as it can easily be stopped. I don’t really understand the suggestions of having a second norm bs ship that fires on bs. If it has better initiative than the Wyvern it kills the bs attack fleet as an option stone dead. If worse then how is it going to encourage much more Wyvern building than Wyverns themselves will? I don’t have anything particularly against adding more bs firing on bs after the Wyvern, just don’t see the benefit.

I also don’t understand calls to get rid of the BW T2 on bs. How terrible do you want cat to be? Do this and cat de would find itself having to build six ships (roach/widow maker/viper/scarab/BW/new anti bs ship) when everyone else can build five or even four. Indeed I personally don’t understand why everyone is against this 0 loss emp defence… it is not like it really makes much difference. With emp either they fully emp, in which case job would be done whether it is 0 loss or not, or the attack fleet gets through. The advantage of the 0 loss in this case is not that it is 0 loss but that has two ticks to defend. No other ships against de and bs do. Its only benefit is that an alliance can send them without worrying, which if anything is positive – less deaths from nubbish defences.

Originally Posted by M0RPH3US

i´d move pegasus init to 5 and cutter init to 4

I have vaguely toyed with this in response to mz’s criticism of terran too strong and zik too weak. But I really am not sure about having 1 cloaked ally def fleet, 1 cloaked gal def fleet, and 1 two tick def fleet all out initing a main attack fleet. No other attack fleet – except zik due to their steal ships – is so disadvantaged. I just can’t see how terrans will land at all under such conditions. Make that the case and they still have a kill ship out initiating them at ally eta even when teamed up, a problem that no other team in this stats set has to contend with. As such if contemplating it, though it considerably weakens etd fr’s solo attack options, I would change the Ranger to T1 co rather than fi to compensate.

Originally Posted by loophole

Make scarab and ranger init 2. Then viper can actually do some good. That's the lightest touch I can think of. For a heavier touch give ranger the init advantage as well. If de still looks too strong give tarantula init advantage and then clip the cath cr a bit by giving guardian advantage.

Something along these lines would probably be my preferred option out of those you lay out. Dropping emp eff across the board sees too broad brush to me and damages cat too broadly not just their de. Adding another de ship as mentioned above means they are onto six ships, which is probably the equivalent of a dropping emp down another 20 percentage points or so. I had thought that having the viper with the advantage over BW would be enough; emp a chunk of the Widows with ally Vipers and then finish off with Tycoons and Marauders ingal. So I would either do something along the lines of the suggested change for the tarantula (which I don’t think is too worrying because it does not have brilliant eff on de anyway) or else reduce the viper’s eff a bit more to compensate.

Originally Posted by BaasB

I dislike haunt being part of the roiding fleet...

It’s not, or rather there was not intention for it to be. It was simply left there when xan fr became de awaiting suggestion on whether it should be fr (when xan has a fr ship – they did not have a de ship when the haunt was) or whether it should be cr/bs like other.

In short my own suggested list of changes drawing on what has been suggested would be:
Marauder T2 bs
Tarantula init 1, Scarab/Ranger/Viper init 2
Pegasus init 5, Banshee init 6, Cutter init 4
Ranger and Dealer T1 swapped.
Possibly turn Widow Maker into an emp ship (slightly benefits zik)
Edit: realised that I need to increase BW to init 3 too if going to keep the original way I had in mind of using vipers to allow ingal cr defence.

But since my set has been withdrawn all this is very notional and theoretical.

[Joseph]

Originally Posted by booji

It seems difficult for me to see how both ter fr and de can be overpowered at the same time considering that each are the main defence against the other. I personally think that fr is ok on attack and pretty decent on defence. De is very good on attack but is really open on defence so it balances out rather.

i like your stats tbh, and i dont see FR as a issue, neither BS, maybe DE a little bit!