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Unread 27 Jul 2012, 16:51   #1
Dav
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The Pre-launch debate...

Pretty stupid idea reducing the PL to +4 ticks. Makes it silly for casual players and only benefits the 'active' alliances (Ultores/CT/etc) that can now be bothered to wake up and launch at silly o'clock.

Not that it makes much odds, but I won't be playing, was planning on a lazy round and now that ruined

All the best and good luck to all in the new round

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Unread 27 Jul 2012, 17:21   #2
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

Dude, launch when you get up in the morning, it's not harder than that. It's the same for all us lazy folks.
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Unread 27 Jul 2012, 17:33   #3
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

This change (to +4 max) is the worst of both worlds. It inconveniences the people who are "pro-PL" and it fails to address any of the negative consequences of having a PL feature in the first place.

But, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, let's not have another thread about the merits or otherwise of PL. We already have MANY of those.
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Unread 27 Jul 2012, 17:57   #4
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

I think ArcChas hits the nail on the head right there... wether your pro PL or anti PL, +4 PL is NOT the answer.

Pick one or the other please for gods sake!

This is like the BP 'solution' offered up by the PA Team, somewhere in the middle so it doesnt piss people off and ends up not helping anybody at all!!!
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Unread 29 Jul 2012, 16:23   #5
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

pro
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Unread 29 Jul 2012, 17:18   #6
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

if ppl do not understand, that there is an oppertunity to play during the times they are awake, then i couldnt care any less if they quit or not..

take care and quit crying and emoing in the forums
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Unread 29 Jul 2012, 21:53   #7
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

bah... That's it for r48? Seriously nothing more?
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Unread 29 Jul 2012, 23:31   #8
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

Well the positive about removing PL is removing some of the bandwagon effect.
Put this is not a good option at all for this round, i had looked forward to mass PLing
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Unread 1 Aug 2012, 14:23   #9
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

another whine thread about PL? pffft why don't you just launch at a different LT?
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Unread 1 Aug 2012, 16:44   #10
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
another whine thread about PL? pffft why don't you just launch at a different LT?
You have a very well thought-out point.


Your move, people with lives that still want to compete.
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Unread 1 Aug 2012, 23:05   #11
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

Frankly, lets give it a try there are more important things to whine about!
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Unread 4 Aug 2012, 09:47   #12
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

After thinking this over for some time, i decided to approach this from a different angle: what would be the reason for PA TEAM to limit PL? What do they hope to achieve?

I would be interested in Appocomaster telling us here what his motivation is.
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Unread 4 Aug 2012, 10:34   #13
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

I'm genuinely not sure if 4/4 is going to achieve anything at all. It's too long to prevent 4am launches, and too short to run your ships with. Worst of both worlds.
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Unread 4 Aug 2012, 12:28   #14
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

sif i get up to launch attacks, thats so r5....
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Unread 9 Aug 2012, 23:33   #15
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

ooh stay up til midnight to launch or live launch in the morning , what difference does it make ,mz u can still hide like the French your fleet or has that been removed aswell
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Unread 10 Aug 2012, 00:18   #16
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

Oh, right. Yeah, that's still there, I think.
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Unread 10 Aug 2012, 22:27   #17
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

Something to think about:

Amount of planets at PT 1 & PT 1177 during the last few rounds:

R48 - 717 - We will see.....
R47 - 733 - 854
R46 - 798 - 963
R45 - 780 - 973 (PT2 instead of PT1, did not have PT1)
R44 - 932 - 1381
R43 - 955 - 1118
R42 - 854 - 1076
R41 - 841 - 1103
R40 - 768 - 1056
R39 - ??? - 1170

So, Interestingly enough, the planet numbers was RISING up to R44 (something everyone was praying for, wasn't it?). R45 we saw a serious drop in numbers. Why? First thing i did was look at the 'Changes this round'. What i saw was this:

Round 45:
-Prelaunch for attacks now 2 ticks
-Prelaunch for defence now 6 ticks


Can we conclude that PL was a reason for many players to not play anymore? Also, this round, we have limited PL again and where we normally see a rise in numbers after a sumemr round, this round, which is sort of post-holidays, seems to be lower yet again. And yes, we have limited PL again too...

Draw your own conclusions....

But I say this: whatever the advantages of limited PL might be, it at least seems to have killed what we all wanted the most: more players. THAT is my preliminary conclusion.
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Unread 11 Aug 2012, 00:13   #18
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

As far as I can tell there are *no* advantages of limited PL. As I've said before, it's the worst of both worlds.

As for the numbers, I think it's a fair bet that they also declined after the original introduction of PL (although I'm prepared to be corrected on that). What is shown by the decline in R45 and the subsequent failure to recover is the danger of making unnecessary changes to the game just to see if they work. The assumption that many people make (that poor changes can be reversed and all will be well again) is a false one.

I admit to being surprised by the steady rise in numbers from R40 to 44 though - I didn't notice it happening at the time. I wonder what caused it.
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Unread 11 Aug 2012, 07:42   #19
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy View Post
So, Interestingly enough, the planet numbers was RISING up to R44 (something everyone was praying for, wasn't it?). R45 we saw a serious drop in numbers. Why? First thing i did was look at the 'Changes this round'. What i saw was this:
I have no less than five objections:

1) Round 44 was free, so the data from that round should be discarded.

2) We've seen this kind of 'stability' before: player numbers were roughly constant from round 34 to 36 (1307, 1247, 1299). The same is true of round 28-33 (1432, 1420, 1628, 1696, 1551, 1447), the numbers in italic are round 30 (supposedly the last round) and 31 (bought by zPeti with much fanfare), which are anomalous and should be ignored. Of course, we can use the exact same rounds to show that PA's player number shrunk significantly: in round 29, there were 1420 players. Round 35 had 1247 players. Round 41 had 1103. Round 47 had 854.

3) All this establishes is correlation, not causality.

4) One data point is not enough to derive conclusions from. It's simply bad science to pretend that it is.

5) Even if the current player base does not like something, that does not mean it's a bad feature, nor is losing those players necessarily bad for PA. I've long been amazed and annoyed at how incredibly stuck people are in their ways. This is snown particularly well when someone does something unorthodox. XP whoring, fortress gals, covert operations, donating your galfund to someone at tick 24; all of these strategies and tactics caused a mass uproar when they were first used (and some still make people red hot with anger), with the usual cries of 'abuse' and 'unfairness' and demands for nerfs. PA 3.0 would probably be better off without the current player base.


Unfortunately, while some of my objections could be overcome with more data, I don't think this round will give us any. As I've said several times now, I don't believe a limit of prelaunching to +4 meaningfully changes anything at all, so even if we lose another 100 players this round, then that just shows people are morons. But then I'm already convinced of that, so many I'm biased.


P.S. It is interesting to see that "free" rounds still attract so many more people than "paid" rounds. To me it shows a failure to communicate that hey, PA is perfectly playavle even if you don't buy a credit!
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Unread 11 Aug 2012, 07:59   #20
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

mz,

Of course your objections are valid, some more then others.

My main goal wasn't to prove that PL is bad in itself. I couldn't care less. If i want to launch at (my) night, I just set an alarm. If i don't, I launch at daytime. My point was that reduced PL might scare ppl away, while one or maybe even the main concern has been the number of players for ages now.

I know the data isn't conclusive. If i want it to be perfect i need to:
  • Correct for seasonal influence
  • Somehow determine how to correct free rounds
  • Have a bigger sample if possible
  • Check for drops in users and see if they correlate with unpopular decisions
  • Etc.

So while i agree the data isn't enough and too raw, i still think it merits further research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mz
As I've said several times now, I don't believe a limit of prelaunching to +4 meaningfully changes anything at all, so even if we lose another 100 players this round, then that just shows people are morons. But then I'm already convinced of that, so many I'm biased.
It might not change anything meaningfully, except that people might THINK it changes something. But that's why you prolly call them morons then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mz
P.S. It is interesting to see that "free" rounds still attract so many more people than "paid" rounds. To me it shows a failure to communicate that hey, PA is perfectly playavle even if you don't buy a credit!

..

and

..

1) Round 44 was free, so the data from that round should be discarded.
You accuse me of bad science, yet produce no statistical evidence that free rounds attract (significantly) more players. Maybe free rounds just result in the same amount of players have more planets (ie, cheating), to name an example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mz
5) Even if the current player base does not like something, that does not mean it's a bad feature, nor is losing those players necessarily bad for PA. I've long been amazed and annoyed at how incredibly stuck people are in their ways. This is snown particularly well when someone does something unorthodox. XP whoring, fortress gals, covert operations, donating your galfund to someone at tick 24; all of these strategies and tactics caused a mass uproar when they were first used (and some still make people red hot with anger), with the usual cries of 'abuse' and 'unfairness' and demands for nerfs. PA 3.0 would probably be better off without the current player base.

and..

Unfortunately, while some of my objections could be overcome with more data, I don't think this round will give us any
Your 5th objection isn't related to my usage of numbers, but is your opinion of people and their behaviour

Quote:
Originally Posted by mz
2) The same is true of round 28-33 (1432, 1420, 1628, 1696, 1551, 1447), the numbers in italic are round 30 (supposedly the last round) and 31 (bought by zPeti with much fanfare), which are anomalous and should be ignored.
You use this to prove I misuse numbers. You state that those numbers should be ignored. I could just as well say that they prove my right: round 30 saw an increase because ppl wanted one last round of PA, and Round 31 more people started playing because they thought good changes were gonna come. In my theory, they would fit perfectly: decisions made about PA greatly influence the number of playing people.
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Unread 11 Aug 2012, 08:30   #21
Mzyxptlk
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy View Post
So while i agree the data isn't enough and too raw, i still think it merits further research.
I agree, I just don't think this round will provide meaningful data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy View Post
You accuse me of bad science, yet produce no statistical evidence that free rounds attract (significantly) more players. Maybe free rounds just result in the same amount of players have more planets (ie, cheating), to name an example.
If I wanted to cheat, I could just as easily sign up a bunch of unpaid planets in a paid round as I could in a free round. I see no mechanism by which free rounds would distort the relation between number of planets and number of players.

As for whether they attract more players at all... Spot the free rounds. (Hint: there's 4.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy View Post
Your 5th objection isn't related to my usage of numbers, but is your opinion of people and their behaviour
It's not related to the numbers, per se, but it is related to what conclusions we should draw from the numbers, and how this effects changes in the game.
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Unread 11 Aug 2012, 15:22   #22
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

Nice graph. It;s easy to spot the free rounds, but as i said, it is also easy to make false conslusions about the numebr of players. Take into account these things:

- More people will cheat because they think that since all planets are 'paid', it more advantageous to cheat. Remember, it doens;t have to be true, ppl just have to believe it's true
- More people will sign up new planets if they aren't happy with their old one, since you don't lose real money
- What number have you used? Start amount? End amount? avg amount?
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Unread 11 Aug 2012, 16:40   #23
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

End.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 11 Aug 2012, 17:35   #24
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

I dont understand this whole debate. There is a big number of people who really have a problem with PL and we have a core who thinks they are hardcore, badass, the elite who want to get rid of it.

For the sake of keeping players and for nothing else, without judging about PL itself keeping it is the best solution. PA has so many other things that need to be improved so wasting too much energy on this debate is really pointless to me.
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Unread 13 Aug 2012, 01:13   #25
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
P.S. It is interesting to see that "free" rounds still attract so many more people than "paid" rounds. To me it shows a failure to communicate that hey, PA is perfectly playavle even if you don't buy a credit!
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Unread 13 Aug 2012, 06:43   #26
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korsan View Post
I dont understand this whole debate. There is a big number of people who really have a problem with PL and we have a core who thinks they are hardcore, badass, the elite who want to get rid of it.

For the sake of keeping players and for nothing else, without judging about PL itself keeping it is the best solution. PA has so many other things that need to be improved so wasting too much energy on this debate is really pointless to me.
u sound like a broken record.. its not about harcore ppl (hardly any left these days neways) wanting to pwn other ppl while they sleep.. the debate has been around for a long time now for the sake of moving playing times more around the clock..

please do read this once more, no, do not post before reading it.. id really suggest u to read it 1 more last time actually..

I for instance wont be able to launch quite a big % of my attacks this round, since the +4 PL is too little for me.. therefore, i went for BS and later waves in order to be able to play for my alliance.. simple
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Unread 13 Aug 2012, 13:51   #27
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

I should have left out my first sentence maybe.. What I wanted to say is without judging about PL leaving it out is better for player numbers.
Again gameplay decisions or considerations having to be made resulting from this pl limit are not part of my criticism just that the player numbers decline without pl and that activity goes down.
I just hope they do the right decisions so PA has enough members when I decide to play again one day.
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Unread 13 Aug 2012, 16:01   #28
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
End.
Enlightning :P
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Unread 21 Aug 2012, 23:35   #29
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

I would be interested in activity changes from last round.

Can we get some statistics like:
- fleets sent per hour last round/this round
- fleets recalled per hour last round/this round
- fleets roiding per hour last round/this round
- defense fleets sent per hour last round/this round
- defense recalled per hour last round/this round
- actions in general per tick last round/this round (cov ops, scans)

per hour:
00:00 = ... fleets
01:00 = ... fleets
...

With the excuse of being a summer round being over now I think the outcomes would be very interesting. You think you can do this Appoccomaster?
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Unread 22 Aug 2012, 07:29   #30
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Re: The Pre-launch debate...

dont hope too much from +4 PL :P
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