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Unread 21 May 2015, 20:13   #151
BloodyButcher
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by loophole View Post
yes, and xan/ter/zik were under represented compared to racial ratio of the universe. ETD had fighters AND De.

Being on the receiving end of De incoming I can say 5 etd coming wouldn't worry me much. 5 cath ? may as well call it uncovered and send my frigs elsewhere. Not saying my situation was the norm, but I imagine most would agree a cath heavy team up got covered less than an etd heavy one.

I really am guessing here though because I didn't dc anything but my own galaxy.
Viper were generaly dominating cath incs, guess you didnt have much caths then.
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Unread 21 May 2015, 21:21   #152
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Two maybe, I think. We chose the harder path for sure.
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Unread 21 May 2015, 21:49   #153
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Also Blue you no longer have access to beta server?
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Unread 22 May 2015, 07:26   #154
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

i haven't had access since booji took over
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Unread 22 May 2015, 08:03   #155
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

hopefully appocco applies my additions so it will balance fr and fi which seem to have caused the most uproar
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Unread 22 May 2015, 08:08   #156
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Appoco could probably be a bit less anal about revoking access to the beta server. We're all adults here (well, most of us), if booji's stats are up, other people won't go in and change them.
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Unread 22 May 2015, 11:27   #157
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Blue, Just ask Appoco to give you access back to the beta so you can change them. Stats should be up in game later today as signups start in 10h.
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Unread 22 May 2015, 11:51   #158
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

do these stats still heavily favor forts?
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Unread 22 May 2015, 12:31   #159
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by [DDK]gm View Post
do these stats still heavily favor forts?
Is this a question, or a opinion?
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Unread 22 May 2015, 12:37   #160
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by [DDK]gm View Post
do these stats still heavily favor forts?
I suspect the anwer is not as much as mine would have!

We as a community have problems with language and definitions. In this case what do you mean by forts? Do you mean galaxies with lots of people from the same alliance? Galaxies that rely on ingal defence (or pl def) either against fr de or fi co? Or do you mean planets that build just a mass of fr or de to cover pretty much everything?
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Unread 22 May 2015, 12:44   #161
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Is this a question, or a opinion?
Are you for real?
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Unread 22 May 2015, 12:55   #162
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Butch3r, ? = question :P

Booji, fort as in single alliance
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Unread 22 May 2015, 13:05   #163
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by eksero View Post
Are you for real?
What kinda question is this Thought everyone had acces to the stats and could find out themself
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Unread 23 May 2015, 05:28   #164
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Any changes planned or are these stats final now?
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Unread 24 May 2015, 06:18   #165
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

apart from a few minor cost changes the stats are final as far as i am concerned

minor cost changes such as cutlass and clipper
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Unread 24 May 2015, 08:21   #166
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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The Distributor's function is therefore restricted to making sure ziks don't try hitting you with CR.
So you go and eliminate that function by nerfing its init, GJ!
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Unread 24 May 2015, 08:37   #167
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

if i was a fr/de alliance, i would build it
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Unread 24 May 2015, 08:57   #168
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

really? They dont fire before anything, and if they do get to fire your FR/DE alliance gets some CR it doesnt want!!!!
It is hit t1 by most of the CR its supposed to steal, if hypothetically Fireblade and Tulla hit it t2 then it could sit behind the attack fleets and have a reasonable chance of firing. As it is it is just flack and not very good at that because it has A/C of 336!
The combination of poor armour and being hit t1 means for it to flack for your DE would be costing twice as much as just buying more DE!
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Unread 24 May 2015, 09:09   #169
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

if you dont want to build it, dont. it works a lot more effectively than sending de def on a fr planet
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Unread 24 May 2015, 09:24   #170
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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if you dont want to build it, dont. it works a lot more effectively than sending de def on a fr planet
You dont have to build it is not an excuse for having a silly ship in the stats. You might as well say Terr is a useless race in this stats set (can they actually attack anyone other than cat?), you dont have to play em if you dont want too! But ofc that results in a rather unbalanced universe which is bad for everyone.
In practice it would be a mad to appoint it as an ally def ship even if you ARE an FR/DE alliance, because there are so many ships do the same thing better (and without the unfortunate effect of stealing CR that doesnt fit your strat!). An FR/DE alliance would in any event have to be building FI/CO as defence ships to cover their attack fleets failure to shoot FR/DE, so why would be designating a poor ship that reinforces an area where you are already strong.
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Unread 24 May 2015, 09:33   #171
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
You dont have to build it is not an excuse for having a silly ship in the stats. You might as well say Terr is a useless race in this stats set (can they actually attack anyone other than cat?), you dont have to play em if you dont want too! But ofc that results in a rather unbalanced universe which is bad for everyone.
In practice it would be a mad to appoint it as an ally def ship even if you ARE an FR/DE alliance, because there are so many ships do the same thing better (and without the unfortunate effect of stealing CR that doesnt fit your strat!). An FR/DE alliance would in any event have to be building FI/CO as defence ships to cover their attack fleets failure to shoot FR/DE, so why would be designating a poor ship that reinforces an area where you are already strong.
because sending de to def with fr isn't very resourceful,

terran has plenty of attacking options they fr might not be tip top, but their bs and fi have plenty of options to attack
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Unread 24 May 2015, 09:41   #172
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

You rather missed the point there, defence ships tend to be built to cover holes, not reinforce what you have, an FR/DE alliance will have its ETDs building brokers for def.
An FR based xan, or zik is not gonna be hit much by CR.
Anyway this battle over a marginal ship like the distributor is a waste of effort. How about I focus on something rather more fundamental, why does the dagger fire before the cutlass, a tiny amount of daggers will make zik co totally unlandable. The initiatives should be reversed.
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Unread 24 May 2015, 09:50   #173
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
You rather missed the point there, defence ships tend to be built to cover holes, not reinforce what you have, an FR/DE alliance will have its ETDs building brokers for def.
An FR based xan, or zik is not gonna be hit much by CR.
Anyway this battle over a marginal ship like the distributor is a waste of effort. How about I focus on something rather more fundamental, why does the dagger fire before the cutlass, a tiny amount of daggers will make zik co totally unlandable. The initiatives should be reversed.
well ideally they would have some cath support for emp'ing
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Unread 24 May 2015, 09:51   #174
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

on top of etd being able to steal co, giving access to Executive as another anti fi
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Unread 24 May 2015, 11:59   #175
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

sorry but this set is aweful - it really makes me wanna skip playing the round

1) its way too defensive with all those fr forting options - alliances good in defence will just dominate the round (congratz ultores on r62 win)

2) racial distribution is xan heavy - cause a race with 3 cloaked attack fleets is just OP

3) a universe where every 3rd planet is xan - is boring and will make everyone not in top200 quit at around tick 600 (because he has been roided by pods only for the 20th time by then)

thank god its a summer round only
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Unread 24 May 2015, 12:25   #176
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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sorry but this set is aweful - it really makes me wanna skip playing the round

1) its way too defensive with all those fr forting options - alliances good in defence will just dominate the round (congratz ultores on r62 win)

2) racial distribution is xan heavy - cause a race with 3 cloaked attack fleets is just OP

3) a universe where every 3rd planet is xan - is boring and will make everyone not in top200 quit at around tick 600 (because he has been roided by pods only for the 20th time by then)

thank god its a summer round only
Good im not the one saying this, shhhhhhh would accuse me for trying to demotivate the stat maker.

This set will not be run unless they are corrected, im not to worried atm, ill judge em when they are finished, but i think we know wich direction they are heading
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Unread 24 May 2015, 13:04   #177
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

FR and De hits 4 classes, instead of the 5 thats common in earlier rounds, i really dont understand the 'FR forting' complaint. With Fr you are missing emp in your combo and theres some ships that just wreck you. Sure in defense you may be able to have enough fr flak to stop zik co even if it hurts, but in offense you are gonna be stopped easiest of all teamups.
plus ofc youstill have to cover vs fr and de with other ships in your fort.

Xan heavy does make sense, with each xan fleet stopped by a higher eta xan fleet, easiest way to protect you from all the xans faking is be xan yourself.
But Xan being stopped easily by xan makes them strong and weak at the same time, I prefer an attacking fleet thats not so easily stopped by a single 0 ship fleet in gal.

3 pod fleet faking is strong for sure, personally i think since their fleets are so easily stopped its not too strong, but its tough to judge and i can imagine quite some players go xan because of it and the faking fun it brings.
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Unread 24 May 2015, 13:22   #178
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

These stats are not made for soloing, indeed only xan is likely to be really good at soloing this round and that due to their fakes. Almost every solo fleet is easily stopped by something or other because there are so many ship options. This it seems to me as much as anything would be the likely cause of a xan heavy round. People probably want to play less intensively in a summer round so would probably prefer to be able to attack solo... Particularly when the xan faking option is unusually good.

On fr sure there are three fleets with fr and they are clearly going to be good defensively but on the offence even if they are teamed up they don't have emp so there are single ships that can stop them, particularly the Wyvern.

I too don't like this set, mostly because of the three pods which I think leads to pointless fleets (as noted earlier ter bs) and gives xan an extra advantage (which is not needed in this stats set when they have pretty good init). It's not totally broken but even if it were nicely balanced and did not have problems with pointless ships and fleets I would not think it the right set for a summer round.
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Unread 24 May 2015, 14:35   #179
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

i would have thought xan was the wost of the races
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Unread 24 May 2015, 20:18   #180
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

It's a done deal now? So let's see how it goes
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Unread 24 May 2015, 21:26   #181
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Appoco is making final changes today including fixing the terrible emp that Blue_esper decided to make.
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Unread 25 May 2015, 01:41   #182
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Appoco is making final changes today including fixing the terrible emp that Blue_esper decided to make.
Enlighten us more about this as a reference for others trying to make stats in the future.
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Unread 25 May 2015, 01:45   #183
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Well the fact that ST Emp ships having eff vs an entire race at 130% at best is a serious problem. If you make ST emp a thing then it must be 150-160% at minimun for it to function. If one ship is put at 140/130% thats fine but the fact that Emp vs terran as a whole is at 130% means the emp ship is as effective as a steal ship, which fires last vs fires 1st w/o killing its target.
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Unread 25 May 2015, 02:09   #184
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

The EMP eff has been fixed.
Apparently Appoco is considering doing further changes, wich is scary enough.
I think now at best, the stats is "balanced", i dont see how making any further changes to the set would make it better
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Unread 25 May 2015, 02:20   #185
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Weeeee
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Unread 25 May 2015, 03:55   #186
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

So still not final? BB are you going cath now? True test of whether Stas are balanced is if you can play cath so I must know.....what will you play?
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Unread 25 May 2015, 07:27   #187
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Some of the emp still confuses me like the Scarab why is Cath De so emp resistant?
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Unread 25 May 2015, 08:15   #188
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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So still not final? BB are you going cath now? True test of whether Stas are balanced is if you can play cath so I must know.....what will you play?
No, i dont think id play cath.
The emp eff was broken, claiming they wrernt would be silly.
Now tula is as effective as broker
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Unread 25 May 2015, 10:11   #189
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Still say emp is broken. How is ter being frozen at a higher emp eff then xan a fixed thing?

Frigate Centaur Ter 0.58 148% EMP, average value
Frigate Gryphon Ter 0.57 161% EMP, average value
Frigate Pegasus Ter 0.57 164% EMP, average value
Frigate Medusa Ter 0.58 156% EMP, average value

Frigate Vsharrak Xan 0.64 147% EMP, average value
Frigate Reaper Xan 0.61 154% EMP, average value
Frigate Apparition Xan 0.55 156% EMP, average value
Frigate Vampyre Xan 0.56 161%

Ters should not be frozen more then xan...should be 10% less, either raise eff on xan or lower on ters.
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Unread 25 May 2015, 10:27   #190
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Ters should not be frozen more then xan...should be 10% less, either raise eff on xan or lower on ters.
why?
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Unread 25 May 2015, 10:31   #191
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

because xan is spose to be cath target
cath is spose to be ter target etc
by messing the emp res by race you change the dynamic of how i intended the races to be played
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Unread 25 May 2015, 11:03   #192
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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why?
You've made them completely worthless in every way, the only things ter fr could attack was using high emp res vs ETD and Cath. They couldn't attack any other race. Now they can't do that. But tbfh, there is not a whole lot you can do to fix this set. I don't hate it as much as some, but still makes an undesirably over-defensive round for a summer round where you have allies trying to 3 fleet attack and have fun, and this set just ruins all that by allowing fort gals to shack up and make it boring. I, and many others, would prefer you throw one out from a previous round. It doesn't have to be new to be fun.

EDIT - Another point about the unbalance. Is Pegs and Vshar are similar ships and with similar functions correct? Problem is, the Pegs fire slower, do less damage by cost eff, are weaker vs emp, aren't cloaked. The only "advantage" it has with Vshar, a "similar" ship is slightly better defense and a useless t2 in co. Reason the t2 in co is useless because the only co's that fire on fr attack before its' init(Corsair and viper) or fire same time with a t1 while it is t2(Devastator). So its' only use is a xan fi deterrent and it doesn't even provide that too well as it makes a bloody mess.
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Unread 25 May 2015, 11:11   #193
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
because xan is spose to be cath target
cath is spose to be ter target etc
by messing the emp res by race you change the dynamic of how i intended the races to be played
Why did you not fix it yourself before handing the set over?
EMP was completely broken
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Unread 25 May 2015, 15:24   #194
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Why did you not fix it yourself before handing the set over?
EMP was completely broken
emp wasn't broken. beetle got the boost it needed, everything else was fine, you want OP EMP ships which is what we've had in the last 3 rounds which has gotten way out of hand and i believe it is time to reign it back in to how it used to be
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Unread 25 May 2015, 16:32   #195
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Figured I should take another look at them after all the hullabaloo of the last few days.

My main criticism when I last looked at these stats was that there were too many useless off-class ships. Since then, most of these ships have been made useful, but that means they had to be made useful against something. Consequently, most races now have a hard counter against most attack fleets. The most extreme example is Ter, which has counters to everything except Etd De. Only Cat roids more than 3 races (I haven't looked at Effs), and most other fleets roid 0-2 races solo. That makes these stats far too defensive for my liking.

If I'd seen this a week ago, I would've suggested going back to the r61 stats, which only had problems that would've been easily fixable. As it stands, it's probably too late to do much about it.

More generally speaking, this reveals that ship stats can either 1) be static, with people having little choice as to what ships to build, because they only have a few (useful) ships, or 2) very defensive, with people having a lot of useful ships to choose from, all of which combined stops most attack fleets. Bad and worse.

It amuses me that half of this thread is about the EMP effs, an issue that is as visible as it is minor, while completely overlooking the huge honking banner that's hanging over the stats: 'INIT TO 1500 INIT TO 1500!".
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Unread 25 May 2015, 16:57   #196
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Figured I should take another look at them after all the hullabaloo of the last few days.

My main criticism when I last looked at these stats was that there were too many useless off-class ships. Since then, most of these ships have been made useful, but that means they had to be made useful against something. Consequently, most races now have a hard counter against most attack fleets. The most extreme example is Ter, which has counters to everything except Etd De. Only Cat roids more than 3 races (I haven't looked at Effs), and most other fleets roid 0-2 races solo. That makes these stats far too defensive for my liking.

If I'd seen this a week ago, I would've suggested going back to the r61 stats, which only had problems that would've been easily fixable. As it stands, it's probably too late to do much about it.

More generally speaking, this reveals that ship stats can either 1) be static, with people having little choice as to what ships to build, because they only have a few (useful) ships, or 2) very defensive, with people having a lot of useful ships to choose from, all of which combined stops most attack fleets. Bad and worse.

It amuses me that half of this thread is about the EMP effs, an issue that is as visible as it is minor, while completely overlooking the huge honking banner that's hanging over the stats: 'INIT TO 1500 INIT TO 1500!".
Finally, some reasonable statement over these stats, summing it all...
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Unread 25 May 2015, 18:34   #197
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

Mz is always provoking me with a lot of his posts.
That he suddently noticed these stats is the way they are makes me wonder if he realy is paying attention.
They were always gonna head in this direction, there was no other way about it.
Now they are very balanced imho, even though they are balanced dosnt mean they look exciting to most others to play.
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Unread 25 May 2015, 19:41   #198
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

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Mz is always provoking me with a lot of his posts.
Rest assured, enticing you into responding is the farthest thing from my mind when I visit this place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
That he suddently noticed these stats is the way they are makes me wonder if he realy is paying attention.
Well, obviously. I said in the very first line of my post that I wasn't paying much attention until today. This is the first time I've looked at them since I last posted seriously in Blue's thread, whenever the hell that was. 2 weeks ago? 3? In any case, I wasn't aware looking at the stats was mandatory.

Do you have anything worthwhile to say about the content of my post, or were you just looking to poke me with a stick to see if I'd react? Oh, and what is this third person shit? Are you performing for an audience?

[edit] Hey, shit is no longer censored? What about ****? ****? ********?

[edit2] OK.
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Unread 27 May 2015, 04:36   #199
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

emp effs are off the planet
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Unread 27 May 2015, 07:07   #200
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Re: Blue's Stat Set Rnd 62

They have indeed gone up a lot.
For me however the bigger problem with it is that they are rather uneven; to take probably the most extreme example the Viper fires on the Investor t1 at 168% eff while hitting the Scarab, also t1, at only 103%.
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