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Unread 28 Apr 2006, 02:50   #1
furball
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Combating resource hoarding

Resource hoarding really really annoys me. Last round some of the top value planets had over 20m of each resource (and a few had lots lots more). This made many of them practically invunerable to attack because they could simply build defence for whatever they had incoming. I considered this a bad thing.

At present a planet can max out on security centres and so become invunerable to losing it via resource hacking. This is sensible because unstoppable cov-ops would probably make Kargool quit. Again.


So, I foresee only one option. Only one way to solve this problem. One solution to rule them all.





BRING BACK CARGOSHIPS!!!11!1!


Seriously guys. Think about it. For the children.
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Unread 28 Apr 2006, 02:54   #2
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Re: Combating resource hoarding

To add some detail:


The new cargoship would be race-specific and off-class, much like the current structure killers. Making it the same class as that race's structure killer would make me feel funny downstairs, so do that too.

The idea is that an alliance could mount attacks against planets with lots of resources saved, combining different races' fleets - e.g. the Terran cargoship (CR) class would could be sent with a Cathaar CR fleet.


Thoughts?
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Unread 28 Apr 2006, 02:58   #3
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Re: Combating resource hoarding

Cargoships used to steal only the asteroid production for the three ticks that you were attacking for - they did not assail a planet's stockpile (generally this was becuase it was thought that the stockpile could easily be spent prior to battle, and thus denying it to the enemy - there was no way to turn off asteroid production for three ticks and so it was left to that). Though clearly you intend for these cargoes to raid stockpiles, not asteroid incomes...

Having them off class too would be nice - however would cargoes (being unarmed) be massive floating piles of armour, or relatively weakly armoured? I ask because if you provide cheap armour flak which can then be used to escort other race's normal attack fleet, it just makes it that much harder to stop - which is the point i know, but still...

i wub cargoes! \o/
Bring them back.
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Unread 28 Apr 2006, 03:05   #4
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Re: Combating resource hoarding

I think they would be race-specific on a linear scale with armour efficiency at one end and damage efficiency at the other. Hence Terran cargoships would have the greatest armour but be less powerful, whereas Xan cargoships would be very good stealers but have very weak armour. Simply take the average armour of that race and take off 10 armour efficiency points, that should make them a little easier to kill.

So the Terran ship would act as good flak - but it would also tie up a fleet-slot better used for your own attacking, or for defending. We've seen in the last few rounds that escorting is now a real rarity, whereas pre-PaX it was not at all uncommon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Nublet
Cargoships used to steal only the asteroid production for the three ticks that you were attacking for - they did not assail a planet's stockpile (generally this was becuase it was thought that the stockpile could easily be spent prior to battle, and thus denying it to the enemy - there was no way to turn off asteroid production for three ticks and so it was left to that). Though clearly you intend for these cargoes to raid stockpiles, not asteroid incomes...
Yes,I do intend for them to raid stockpiles. Since we don't have to hoard Eonium anymore (who remembers the Smuggler?), it'll simply be the case that if you save your resources, you do so at your own risk. However, for the Cargoships to steal several million resources, you'd need to commit a significant amount of value to that target - having spent it on cargos in the first place. Thus I envisage tactical building of cargoships as a passive act in war (similar to the building of structure killers, which may be described as an active act in war), to be used against those targets who have saved up considerable resources.
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Unread 28 Apr 2006, 07:58   #5
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Re: Combating resource hoarding

Surely they buy themselves out of the inc and emp/steal/kill all your cargoships?
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Unread 28 Apr 2006, 08:16   #6
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Re: Combating resource hoarding

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Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
Surely they buy themselves out of the inc and emp/steal/kill all your cargoships?
And after spending their way out of CR, you hit them with DE.

This is the traditional route I've gone to deal with stockpiles. Though I agree they're annoying, it means there are a lot less defence ships available to the enemy alliance. It's particularly good if you can hit them with something which forces them to buy PDS type ships so they don't really help their alliance out with them, imo.
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Unread 28 Apr 2006, 08:23   #7
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Re: Combating resource hoarding

they could hide their res with the production trick, cancelling it after the combat report surely
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Unread 28 Apr 2006, 08:34   #8
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Re: Combating resource hoarding

They would loose some of their stockpile if they did that, as they would have to place units into production before the combact tick, and canceled it afterwards. Though yes - they could minimise their losses by placing units into production, assuming they cant kill/stun/steal enough cargoes.

Oh, on that note, would cargoes "cap" before stealing?
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Unread 28 Apr 2006, 08:35   #9
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Re: Combating resource hoarding

Meh. The production trick is retarded, let's scrap it. It's far more of an exploit in the same than XP will ever be .

And yes Arfy/Gate, building to defend against Cargoships is how I expect the planet with the stockpile to defend itself against the incoming. If the planet is tricked into spending on the wrong resource, they can cancel the order later on (incurring a penalty) if they so wish. Alternatively a last resort would be donating it all to the galaxy fund - but they would never get it back.
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Unread 28 Apr 2006, 08:36   #10
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Re: Combating resource hoarding

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
They would loose some of their stockpile if they did that, as they would have to place units into production before the combact tick, and canceled it afterwards. Though yes - they could minimise their losses by placing units into production, assuming they cant kill/stun/steal enough cargoes.

Oh, on that note, would cargoes "cap" before stealing?
Nope, cargos wouldn't cap before stealing. I'd make their initiative at 50, along with structure killers.
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Unread 28 Apr 2006, 09:08   #11
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Re: Combating resource hoarding

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
And after spending their way out of CR, you hit them with DE.

This is the traditional route I've gone to deal with stockpiles. Though I agree they're annoying, it means there are a lot less defence ships available to the enemy alliance. It's particularly good if you can hit them with something which forces them to buy PDS type ships so they don't really help their alliance out with them, imo.
Exactly - they spend all their resources on CR and there is nothing left for the cargoships to steal anyway. I'm not saying you're wrong (because you're right) but cargoships just wouldn't work and it would only give nubs another way to waste what little resources they have anyway.
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Unread 11 May 2006, 13:33   #12
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Re: Combating resource hoarding

I see the point, but isnt resource saving just another valid tactic? It's annoying too that your target is being defended, but we dont forbid defense fleets either. Also, saved resources will indeed resort in less defense ships, but 2 rounds ago, we didnt have to defend our #1 planet as much as we would have if BlackG had not had mass resources to help defend the own planet.

Last thing we need is another (!) rule/limitation in this game.
And for the record: I am NOT one of those resource savers.

IF you would implement it tho, I wud simply make a calculation that would implement 'loss due to spoil'. Metal rusts, crystal dissolves and eonium is fuel, which will go sour ofter prolonged keeping (if you have had a car standing still for a few years, you know what im talking about, the fuel smells like petroleum/terpentine )

So you cud use a formula that ANY resources older then 10 ticks will degrade by x% per tick, something like that. That would AT LEAST make it sound logical.
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Unread 11 May 2006, 14:40   #13
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Re: Combating resource hoarding

I like remy's idea more than the cargoship. They're pretty useless imo caus of the reasons allready stated above by Arfy/Gate. The only way i think you would be able to succesfully use them is against nubs that have gone inactive.
Only thing i'd alter in remy's idea is make it 24-48 ticks instead of 10 ticks.
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Unread 11 May 2006, 15:33   #14
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Re: Combating resource hoarding

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy
I see the point, but isnt resource saving just another valid tactic? It's annoying too that your target is being defended, but we dont forbid defense fleets either. Also, saved resources will indeed resort in less defense ships, but 2 rounds ago, we didnt have to defend our #1 planet as much as we would have if BlackG had not had mass resources to help defend the own planet.
yep resource saving is a very valid tactic, which when done by the top planets does help their alliance to an extent since they require less alliance defence

dont like the idea tbh, as Gate said you can get round the stockpiles either by faking as another class or making them spend vs. another class and then doing another wave of a different class
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Unread 11 May 2006, 15:54   #15
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Re: Combating resource hoarding

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
they could hide their res with the production trick, cancelling it after the combat report surely
No, that's now how the resource hiding 'trick' works.
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