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Unread 16 Jul 2014, 11:48   #1
Machado
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R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=566637022

Papadoc posted these in the thread for last round, they look quite interesting to me. Still needs a lot of work. I gathered he was interested in refining these stats, but only pointed at the old post - so I figured I'd make a new one
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Unread 16 Jul 2014, 12:16   #2
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

I have to admit that I liked the look of this too. I note that Etd are the only race with three pod fleets but their fi and cr seem like afterthoughts. It is difficult to see who they could land either of these on, or why any etd players would go for either when the fr fleet is much better. Though I will admit this depends a lot of the effectiveness and armour.

The fi having the steal ship as the one that targets co while the emp targets de seems to imply their main projected target is terran de forts, HAH! At the same time they will be easy to stop by ally def because every co that targets them with the exception of zik's thief shoots before etd's Arrowhead.

The Cr has similar problems. The Guardian being steal means it is again fired upon first by everything but Zik's Brig. The Grasshopper meanwhile is shot first by Xan's anti cr ship the lancer - surely an unusual state of affairs! I will admit the grasshopper is good against its Bs targets but ally def would be pretty easy again. This leads me to wonder if the Baliff is not a mistake and not meant to be a pod at all but a SK (since otherwise etd dont seem to have one) - but then etd's sk would not be in the same metaclass as a roiding fleet something that is unusual (not seen stats apart from this round since r39 so this might have changed!).

Edit: perhaps that is too specific a comment too soon.
The general: I like these stats quite a lot. Having nobody able to build just three ships or all in one class helps prevent complaints that teamups are needed or that it would be overly defensive. As mentioned in the previous thread I like there being only two pod classes; covering xan fakes with three is a dc's nightmare! And finally I like the independence of each class within the metaclasses making fi/co fr/de and cr/bs teams less likely as both largely fight independently. This is usually done a bit but often not quite so much as here.
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Last edited by booji; 16 Jul 2014 at 12:55.
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Unread 16 Jul 2014, 13:31   #3
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

It's worth noting that ETD proved to be the most difficult. Its hard to decide what strength they should have.

It has been several months since i tinkered with this, I've already found some issues that will need to be addressed, if they are to be refined.

edit: I just made some changes that should help all Etd become viable. Perhaps too viable but efficiency should be a determining factor in that

Edit: There are also a few even same init ships that will have to be changed
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Last edited by Papadoc; 16 Jul 2014 at 13:47.
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Unread 19 Jul 2014, 02:07   #4
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

wouldn't mind seeing a balanced version of this
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Unread 19 Jul 2014, 15:26   #5
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

seconded
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 00:09   #6
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

My first post,

These dont look too bad at first glance.
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 00:37   #7
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Certainly the best of the bunch imho (bb, esper, papa)

Would like to see them in beta/calc mode
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 07:39   #8
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Yes, these look the most promising out of the three
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 07:46   #9
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

I actually don't mind These, anything except B-Butchers.
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 08:20   #10
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Well, there you go. Any chance of this being put in beta?
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 09:14   #11
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

What make these preferable to the others? is it the shipclasses not hitting eachother a lot of the time?
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 09:35   #12
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Dare I say it, i prefer BB's. Seems like more diversity. These just seem like there's gonna be another majority of cat (co) and xan (fr)
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 09:59   #13
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
What make these preferable to the others? is it the shipclasses not hitting eachother a lot of the time?
Theres Race pod equality that is a start.
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 11:29   #14
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

The shipstats in the original post correct? theres some races with 2 pods and others with 3?
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 11:46   #15
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Allright, what i like here:

Cat only having two pods, and ST atk ships in CO.

Xan only having two pods ST atk ships in FI.

Zik having proper kill ships around the classes

Ter having decent bs and options with two other classes.

Obviously we need to see them in calcs to check on effs etc.

But i see less xan/cath with these stats than the other two
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 12:50   #16
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

I'm currently traveling for work so I can work on these when im back at the hotel in the evenings.

I think putting them in beta to check e/r and effs is the next step.
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 13:01   #17
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killeah View Post
Allright, what i like here:

Cat only having two pods, and ST atk ships in CO.

Xan only having two pods ST atk ships in FI.

Zik having proper kill ships around the classes

Ter having decent bs and options with two other classes.

Obviously we need to see them in calcs to check on effs etc.

But i see less xan/cath with these stats than the other two
Are you serious? I see nothing but cat + xan
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 13:17   #18
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Maybe I'm looking at them differently
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 14:22   #19
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

I have a feeling some are actually looking at different shipstats. It shows 3 pods for Cath for me, and a FR class SK.
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 15:00   #20
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

It's worth adding that I intend on Terran being viable especially against xan.

I'm also considering removing co pods from cath or some other change to cath that doesn't make them exactly like every other stat set. Any suggestions?
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 15:24   #21
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Well removing cat co would make the stats set very different as it would mean there is no co roiding fleet! It would also need an attendant change to cat as it would leave them with two roiding options - Cr and Bs. Cat research is fast but still this seems a bit too limiting.
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 15:51   #22
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

I agree with Booji. That said, it would be nice so that cat co wasnt the predominant att fleet again...it just seems like it every round.
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 15:59   #23
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Just had a look at BE's stats again and I think there's quite a good opportunity to pay quite a mix of strategies. Probably my favoured of the stat selections so far
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 16:03   #24
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

It goes against the grain of this stats set but another option to limit cat co would be to have a co defship that fires at co T2 so that the cat co does not fire at it - either the Inforza or the thief, not xan please! Or perhaps less destabilizing would be a de. Either would certainly make a big difference in cat co's ability to land.
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 17:27   #25
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
It goes against the grain of this stats set but another option to limit cat co would be to have a co defship that fires at co T2 so that the cat co does not fire at it - either the Inforza or the thief, not xan please! Or perhaps less destabilizing would be a de. Either would certainly make a big difference in cat co's ability to land.
Just to confirm, you're talking about a zero loss def ship.

Interesting... I think if it's an off pod class hulls 2 ship it could deter mass cath co.

What about making one of the cath co a normal ship? Would that hurt the co viability too much?
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Last edited by Papadoc; 25 Jul 2014 at 17:33.
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 17:39   #26
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Yes I was talking about a zero loss def ship.
If you were to make it normal it would have to be a decent normal ship - there is a tendency for the normal cat ship to be pretty awful on the assumption it is a defship that is simply killing something that is empd already which wont be the case here. The concern would be that everyone would take one look at a cat co fleet that only targets one shipclass with emp and choose something else - which might not be a bad thing!
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 18:19   #27
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

What you could do to reduce Cath Co appeal is change the Viper to a Co ship that targets DE and scrap this insistance on having a Cat fi ship that is frankly shit every round. Then change the firing on one of the DE fleets to target Co. That way a Cat Co player would have to put value into 3 ships for their roiding fleet and doing so makes them less powerful and therfore less the obvious choice.

Cat will be used regardless because the EMP is such a great base for defence when you get incs (emping half the attackers before even getting DCed makes you far easier to cover)
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Unread 25 Jul 2014, 21:23   #28
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

I am considering changing viper to normal and making it decent, changing spider to init 2 and making scarab emp with init 1.

I think this still allows co to be strong but it can be stopped 2 ways and at 2 levels
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Unread 26 Jul 2014, 11:58   #29
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

There are a few ways to counter cath co being too strong as I remember from the past:
- bad effs
- an extra normal co ship that only shoots co
- BS that shoots co

I've never seen a direct 0-loss def ship vs co (beetles got t3 BS in the round where BS targeted co), or a normal ship as one of the main co attack ships. There have also been several rounds where cath hasn't had co pods at all.

I like that fi and co target separate classes in these stats, means you are forced to build both, which also makes co weaker.
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Unread 29 Jul 2014, 00:14   #30
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Yep lower emp efficiency on larger classes of ship. It's ridiculous that a co can emp 1.5 to 2 frigs/des.
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Unread 29 Jul 2014, 19:57   #31
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

My stats are up on beta, I'm traveling home today. Tomorrow I will be able to go through and make sure everything is tuned the way I'm wanting, I was able to make some adjustments before my flight.

Input is welcome

Edit: I want to give one of the races that don't have co, a co ship. Input welcome here too
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Unread 29 Jul 2014, 20:36   #32
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Some of the EMP ships, particularly the Scarab but also the beetle/defender against etd, have really weak emp eff atm. More generally emp seems to be less effective against pods - I am not sure I like the idea that a cat/etd can emp an enemy's whole combat fleet but they still cap.

I would probably give zik a co class fi stealer as at the moment their only anti fi ship is the cutter which is a normal ship.
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Unread 29 Jul 2014, 21:59   #33
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

I'll work on etd, I think zik will get the co ship. Good call
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Unread 30 Jul 2014, 13:09   #34
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

I'd like to see the Inforza a steal ship - would make Etd epic to play/fake.

That said, FI isn't as strong as it looks according to calcs. If all the ally's cats have beetles out in attack however... Depening on ally race key, you might not even need a lot of the first ship - just pulsars and arrowheads could suffice with just a few anti-co. Better E/R vs cat, cloaked anyway.

Gotta wonder how many Inforzas / Bombers will be out there anyway.

Avenger is sick as hell.
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Unread 30 Jul 2014, 17:56   #35
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

I quite like this set. Nothing is overly powered, and the ship names reside with the correct races too! (Mostly.)
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Unread 30 Jul 2014, 20:32   #36
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

My problem with these stats is the number of same init fire ships. And it will just end up with more suicide def which only benifits the defenders. Also bit worried that xan fi might be too strong I get pulsar dmg sucks but first fire still makes for strong teamups
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Unread 30 Jul 2014, 21:29   #37
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

There are only two instances of this, only the Rogue vs Bomber being an issue.
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Unread 30 Jul 2014, 23:45   #38
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Some things we talked about, some we didn't. I like how they are atm. I see Pulsar is back to init 4 but severely weakened (this was mostly done to make ter more viable).

Ter DE reduced to 2 looks good. 5 ships for Ter DE might still be a bit much, but given that they are all attack class (and thus fakeable) this might balance it. Looks like a decent option to me.

I like how the Phoenix is not EMP now, ty The Ranger is better now, FR/DE forts look good but not OP.

Changes to Etd CR a bit more interesting and I'll look at them tomorrow - my first look puts me in the direction of the pillager, it looks very stong now but I'll calc tomorrow. Also frigate def vs BS looks positively screwed compared to DE, but once again I'll see if that's true tomorrow. Just looking at the figures now.

Didn't calc with new Peacekeeper yet, and Zik might still need a t1 Anti-DE. Aside from that, everything looks pretty decent.
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 01:51   #39
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

It was really a major overhaul today but ultimately I think things are headed in a more balanced direction.

The last thing to look at today was bs and I ran out of time. I had the dealer at init 4 for awhile today and it was blistering BS. I'm uncertain if that's a viable solution but we will see.
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 03:26   #40
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
There are only two instances of this, only the Rogue vs Bomber being an issue.

Rogue vs Lancer
Dragon vs Grasshopper
Sentinel Vs Bolt Thrower
Phoenix Vs Cutter
Syren Vs hydra


Thats 5, sorry Patrikc but I normally value your opinion very highly but unless there was a change to these stats in the past 4h I think you might have missed these or just not cared.

Most of these will become a problem infact anytime 2 ships fire at each other at the same time it always makes for 1) Suicide def or 2) Mass Xp runs.
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 03:35   #41
Krypton
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Rogue vs Lancer
Dragon vs Grasshopper
Sentinel Vs Bolt Thrower
Phoenix Vs Cutter
Syren Vs hydra


Thats 5, sorry Patrikc but I normally value your opinion very highly but unless there was a change to these stats in the past 4h I think you might have missed these or just not cared.

Most of these will become a problem infact anytime 2 ships fire at each other at the same time it always makes for 1) Suicide def or 2) Mass Xp runs.
You're nitpicking. Some of these ships wont even be built (in large quantities). It's all about fleet construction around the ships mentioned and ally strategy...

For every one with the same init, there's another for or against with worse/better in another race
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 03:39   #42
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
My problem with these stats is the number of same init fire ships. And it will just end up with more suicide def which only benifits the defenders. Also bit worried that xan fi might be too strong I get pulsar dmg sucks but first fire still makes for strong teamups
xan looks overly nerfed all over, to the point where it is unviable.
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 06:36   #43
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

I don't get what the problem is with some ships firing upon one another at same init. There is emp and other earlier init ships for a reason. USE THEM. Also why are you all so afraid of ship losses and a little combat. At the end of the day its a war game. Its your choice if you land or not on an attack, if they sent enough defense to favor the defender then that's your call to recall. Also most those calcs where same init is invloved it normally favors the attacker anyways.

Rogue vs Lancer: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=axx0k5dzacpg0hd
Lets face it this is the way you should see this calc. Sure rogues might def in gal vs lancers but normally it will be just like this. Should this xan stay and fight so be it...They lose more value and roids.

Dragon vs Chimera(Grasshopper)
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=4tlm5p60mlkufmk
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=n1tnevhrjetlci1
This is fairly balanced to me. Should you not want this calc get a teamup or dont attack someone with cr/bs. OR if the uni is heavy cr build more cr or vice versa. Its a war game...we all have to adapt to what the universe is doing and the war we are in.

Sentinel vs Boltthrower
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=876x7vttyvmmfm3
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=5bmhz6qb2xnxv4t
This is probably the worst of the calcs but this is also still XP landable with etd on attack. Again though....If you want easier lands just team up or don't attack a FR xan or Heavy xan FR gal.... The calc is still not terrible if you end up going heavy anti fr
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=w2f5vekz3ixenm8
The Xan almost loses just as much as the etd and loses roids. If I were the defender and outside of a war at the time I would run my ships but thats just me I guess.

Nix vs Cutter
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=98lu0gvdrb4yfzd
Calc is pretty accurate for how many nix an etd would have per value. Now it appears nix are quite a favorite on def vs cutter but when you add ter pegs into the mix....http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=sze14qla7cqonsp
Even with a ton of FI def the calc is still in favor of the attackers. Should anyone have any suggestions on how to make cutters more efficient please explain how because its quite hard. Changing the init of Nix from 6-7 will make DE very dominate. Balancing it after that would take us to nerfing nix damage which will then make it pointless.

Syren vs Hydra??? Don't really know why you even expect to see many of these calcs since syren isnt even apart of a roiding fleet. Nor is it "needed" as a ship. The ship is just there to add different strats with alliances/gals.
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=1v4pjnusuo17zce
Still in favor of the attacker anyways after roids/xp
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 06:38   #44
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
xan looks overly nerfed all over, to the point where it is unviable.
Xan fi could use a small buff maybe. Xan FR is quite strong.
Also to buff xan fi you could look at making Zik have 2 FI class ships so when/if they steal illusions that can steam up with xan.
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 06:39   #45
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Thats 5, sorry Patrikc but I normally value your opinion very highly but unless there was a change to these stats in the past 4h I think you might have missed these or just not cared.

Most of these will become a problem infact anytime 2 ships fire at each other at the same time it always makes for 1) Suicide def or 2) Mass Xp runs.
Perhaps you'd appreciate my opinion more if you related it to the correct stats, where most of those issues have been resolved.

Pulsar's 222 D/C against Pegasus's 547 A/C, along with Peg's insane 505 D/C, is completely over the top. I don't like Xan Fi rounds either, but you might as well remove them at this rate.
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 07:03   #46
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Not hard to lower pegs dmg down some. You have to realize though that every race but ter has fi anti de which will play a huge roll vs them on their attacks. if you think forting DE is an issue then changing pegs dmg down some might help resolve that.

The more constructive people are with the responses the better the stats will become. Point out what you think is an issue and tell how it should be fixed.

increasing pulsars dmg just makes xan fi the go to source to stopping all de incs. You couldn't even land de vs xan fakes. Having xan fi dominate DE makes the DE races become crap to play so people will play xan to stop any DE then people will pick cath to stop xan and were back to square 1 where most people play cath/xan

Last edited by Truhatred; 31 Jul 2014 at 07:15.
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 08:22   #47
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Has anyone else been running any calcs? Cat co is way to dominant to the extent that its near indefensible when teamed w/etd. Its indefensible solo too tbf, but its way ott
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 09:47   #48
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=uc5l2vxe58e3ids

Suicide def vs zik bs. Attacker loses 200k for minimal roids and xp, defender is using cloaked def. If every zik has to look at that calc every night they wont EVER land attacks where the inverse because rogues are eta 9 on def and cant defend vs lancers the xans will only see that calc likely 1 out of 3 nights

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=idqrnu4hvvty9n8

Equal loss attacker and defender after xp and roids, and it only gets worse as you increase the total value of each fleet.

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=pkmasjb4bjbgmdq

Again if every single zik has to look at that calc every night or even worse vs xan fi every night why would people even play zik. You give zik kill ships yet they cant do SHIT! because they fire at the same time as Xan. D/C A/C doesnt matter when we are talking about same init fire defense will always win. Even with the pulsar the way that it is no De will EVERY be able to do anything.

Syren vs Hydra I understand will rarely come into effect since Syren sucks dick and isnt helpful at all, But it still is a problem because it, in any decent #, will stop attacks regardless of value.
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 11:09   #49
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

I'm worried of Ter only having 1 defense ship on alliance eta, harpy.
The other ship, usable for defence, on alliance eta, dragon, is on Ter best attack fleet.
Meaning, alliances that use defence points for incoming privilige will 1) force ppl to not play Ter or 2) Ter will get less privilige.
That can work on fort, though.
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 14:31   #50
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

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Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
Has anyone else been running any calcs? Cat co is way to dominant to the extent that its near indefensible when teamed w/etd. Its indefensible solo too tbf, but its way ott

Its running at lower efficiencies than the previous rounds to the tune of 20-30% lower atm
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