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Unread 17 Jul 2015, 09:11   #351
[B5]Londo
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Re: Second half of the round

I agree that it is slightly odd. But given that you spent a week or more roiding us without reply our NAP was more surprising than dropping it. For an alliance that has had quite an easy round rogues is remarkably bitter.
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Unread 17 Jul 2015, 09:31   #352
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
I agree that it is slightly odd. But given that you spent a week or more roiding us without reply our NAP was more surprising than dropping it. For an alliance that has had quite an easy round rogues is remarkably bitter.
to be fair, most of us are as bitter towards the whole situation with the HC as we are everyone else lol.
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Unread 17 Jul 2015, 14:54   #353
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
You do realise that 4k incs before pt800 is hard enough, without having to deal with asc jumping into the mix? We were doing fine up untill that point btw. The crashes was unfortunate but it doesn't reflect any emoing, it's just the result of a long and way too tiring summer round. When Asc joined bf/ct/bows the "don't work with ult deal" fell through, but with 3 allies working together infront of ult there was no way we could pick off all 3 even if we now had the chance to work with more than ND.

Well played to BF/Asc for isolating Ult so we could never effectively target those hitting us.

Looking foward to next round, bring on the anti Ult deals(oh, they're already sorted..)
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Unread 17 Jul 2015, 17:20   #354
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
Sums up the two allies rounds respectively. Rogues naive again and Asc not to be trusted
Never trust us again.
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Unread 17 Jul 2015, 17:29   #355
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Re: Second half of the round

Think the most important part was keeping Raul from #1. After that, it became clear we might even get one of ours in the top 3, so yeah, we hit someone who rivalled that option.

And what mz said.
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Unread 17 Jul 2015, 21:18   #356
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by pt- View Post
think the most important part was keeping raul from #1. After that, it became clear we might even get one of ours in the top 3, so yeah, we hit someone who rivalled that option.

And what mz said.
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Unread 17 Jul 2015, 21:21   #357
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
Raul was roided hours BEFORE FL got hit by mulitple tags.
yes... i was roided when 4 allys attcked me full

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Unread 17 Jul 2015, 23:54   #358
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
I find it funny that Asc set out to make sure no brazil made t3, and then they roided #4 who was the only person who could have kicked raul out of t3.
This is because asc is anything but a monolithic alliance. With no Hc we have no clear goals. Benneh's goal was raul out of t3, but there was a significant other faction that wanted to get Redrush as high as possible; something that animaru threatened.
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 02:14   #359
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
This is because asc is anything but a monolithic alliance. With no Hc we have no clear goals. Benneh's goal was raul out of t3, but there was a significant other faction that wanted to get Redrush as high as possible; something that animaru threatened.
Fail Benneh
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 05:10   #360
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Re: Second half of the round

the opposition must win, challenge the dominant to become better, push on even harder. Clouds diserves a win, i must admit, after all this rounds playing actively, dcing, spending time with this game.
im not good at dates, but i remember a round that asc won. ct ended second. allieds, was a nice round. asc played very well.
this round asc dictated round winner. it happens. i dont like when it depends on one alliance to impact that hard on the big war happening. all that third block bullshit was bullshit. point is asc have many ult friends in it, eksero built a gal full of asc, some ex ultorians had pnaps, etc. when they fired us, was like a friend hitting u. u just go crazy and all become sad. thats why ult gave up and hit them. thats my own point of view please. not that any other in ultores think the same as me.
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 06:55   #361
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
the opposition must win, challenge the dominant to become better, push on even harder. Clouds diserves a win, i must admit, after all this rounds playing actively, dcing, spending time with this game.
im not good at dates, but i remember a round that asc won. ct ended second. allieds, was a nice round. asc played very well.
this round asc dictated round winner. it happens. i dont like when it depends on one alliance to impact that hard on the big war happening. all that third block bullshit was bullshit. point is asc have many ult friends in it, eksero built a gal full of asc, some ex ultorians had pnaps, etc. when they fired us, was like a friend hitting u. u just go crazy and all become sad. thats why ult gave up and hit them. thats my own point of view please. not that any other in ultores think the same as me.
To me it looked like Asc/FL/Rogues decided to take out all the alliance in their own tier early on.
P3ng/HR/ND/BowS seemed to get focused down by them. Later on Asc/FL dropped the NAP with Rogues to bring them down.
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 07:47   #362
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
To me it looked like
To me it looks like you've been brain dead for years. It has already been explained several times why we did what we did and yet you still manage to come up with batshit "explanations". It boggles the mind.
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 11:33   #363
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Re: Second half of the round

Asc hit Rogues cause Rogues targetted with ult for 1 night. Think it's been mentioned earlier. Appearently Rogues tried to juggle both an agreement to target with ult and a "don't work with ult"-deal that all t9 allies agreed to. Seems only ND realised how lopsided the politics were and refused that anti ult deal.

That deal ment that the allies below ct/bf/ult/bows targetted eachother a lot where asc came out on top, creating a fair bit of bad blood. Made it easy for allies to agree to hit asc when asc joined the 3 tags already hitting ult. For ults sake asc joining that block ment game over pretty much. Sure we could have kept defending, but we were already looking at 150+ incs per night before asc joined, so we decided to more or less ground asc making their move none profittable while gathering support. That probably saved ult from exceeding 200 incs per night, stopped asc from winning and gained us some decent xp, but it also ment giving up a lot of roids. Not sure we would have been able to handle a week of 200+ incs per night and do any better really, but one can argue if ult's desicion to go 2-fleet attacking while 4 tags were hitting us was what shut the door on our winning chances.
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 12:03   #364
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Re: Second half of the round

Do we have inc stats for this round?
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 12:06   #365
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Re: Second half of the round

I don't think you should include p3nguins in any don't work with ult talks. We were never asked to hit or not hit ult. In fact I did mention to you chimpie to contact me whne shit got tough and you didn't.

Our involvement this round sat pretty much outside of most blocks. Ashame really as we are 3rd in round attack fleets sent with 20 less members than those above us in attacks. We could have been a useful asset to either side but I guess sometimes if you aren't in t5 you mean nothing to some people
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 12:27   #366
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by Munkee View Post
I don't think you should include p3nguins in any don't work with ult talks. We were never asked to hit or not hit ult. In fact I did mention to you chimpie to contact me whne shit got tough and you didn't.

Our involvement this round sat pretty much outside of most blocks. Ashame really as we are 3rd in round attack fleets sent with 20 less members than those above us in attacks. We could have been a useful asset to either side but I guess sometimes if you aren't in t5 you mean nothing to some people
Hehe, in all fairness we didnt want help from more than nd prior to asc joining that block, we were doing ok and didnt want to escalate the blocking. My fear was that if you joined us then asc and fl would jump into bf's side straight away. We knew that if that block grew we wouldnt be able to hold on to roids. So 2 v 3 was something we could live with, confident in our ability. Besides, you were allied to bf ingame at that point aswell I did ask you for help when asc joined the other block and shit did get though tho. Should have abandoned my own principles and block before the other block got the chance to overblock, but meh. Note to self for the future.
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 12:33   #367
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by Nitros View Post
Do we have inc stats for this round?
http://beta.planetarion.com/history/...?id=6&round=62

On ult's end 4k of those incs came before pt900
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 13:11   #368
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
"don't work with ult"-deal that all t9 allies agreed to.
There was never a deal like that, not with the top 9, and certainly not aimed solely against Ultores.

What there was, was a deal between Faceless, Rogues and Ascendancy to avoid working with CT, BF and Ultores. And obviously CT, BF and RainbowS were actively working against you, but as per the F/R/A deal, we did not have any agreements with them. Munkee just denied p3nguins involvement, so that leaves the mighty HR. In practice, this meant you had little room to maneuver politically, but not because of any mythical top-9 alliance deal. Never existed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
That probably saved ult from exceeding 200 incs per night, stopped asc from winning and gained us some decent xp, but it also ment giving up a lot of roids.
Probably, yes. But the goal of PA is not to limit your incs, that's just a means to an end. The goal of PA politics is holding onto your roids and value. By going all-out on Ascendancy, you probably avoided getting 200 incs a night, true, but you lost roids and value as if you did get 200 incs a night, which is just as bad. Does that makes sense.

At the time, we expected Ultores to do what it always (or almost always!) does: defend, resist, retal, outlast the enemy, then come up from behind near round end. You did the very last part of that (74k roids, heh), showing that our worry was justified, but by not doing the first parts you forfeited the round. We expected you to hit back, naturally, but not with a total disregard for your own chances. That miscalculation was our second (and last, imo) serious mistake of the round.

The first was staying too neutral. That's irony for you. As you said, Ultores very easily rallied a coalition of small alliances against us, because by avoiding the top 3 so much on our raids, we disproportionally hit smaller alliances. Not out of malice, but simply because those are the only targets we felt we could safely hit. That was wrong: it turned out they weren't safe to hit, just too weak or scared to hit back on their own. But when your offer came along, they were no longer alone. It was like fighting a hundred 4 year olds. Lesson learnt. You can be too fenced.

If we had been less worried about the top 3 going apeshit on us for hitting one of their forts every now and again, we would've been able to hit upwards more often. This in turn would have avoided pissing off alliances like HR and p3nguins, and you wouldn't have been able to gather as large a force as easily. Our fence would probably have collapsed about a week earlier, but much less disastrously, and with more room for politics and more time for recovery afterwards.

The alternative was to hope our fence would never collapse, as long as we never got involved with the top 3. However, even though they all said they'd be happy to see us win over Alliance X (a different X for each alliance, of course), we preferred taking matters into our own hands over leaving the initiative to other alliances and hope they'd never choose to hit the 70k roid alliance with 0 incs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
Not sure we would have been able to handle a week of 200+ incs per night and do any better really
I figure Ultores would've done a little better. My guess would be -5% a night, to our -8%. The main problem Ascendancy had was lack of ally def. We had no call bot, and so the vast majority of defense happened in-gal. Speaking for my gal (4:1), I don't think we ever got more than 5 ally def fleets a night from Ascendancy.

As for ingal def, it varied. Galaxies like mine did fairly well, while galaxies like 6:7 did significantly worse. Different priorities.
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 14:33   #369
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I figure Ultores would've done a little better. My guess would be -5% a night, to our -8%.
We were rank 4 on score and rank 8 on avg roids at the time with all 3 allies above us being sagnificantly fatter. Grounding might have slowed things down, but it would also mean that ct/bf/asc/bows would hit us over a longer period of time, and in the end we'd have less time to bounce. So i'd suspect it would have been more like -5% per night for 11 days vs. -8% for 7 days, leaving us just as skinny, only with less time left. We would not stop bf/ct/asc from all finishing above us if we grounded and deffed, since you'd steadily increase your lead on us with only nd/p3ng/oddr/norse hitting you. Thats two 40 man tags and two tags with less than 20 members(several allies in the block were not able to hit you the first couple days). XP of potential lands on fat Asc planets was taken into account tho, and is something you didn't consider in your calculations. As for keeping value(not crashing), that could have happened in def aswell and was unfortunate but it's not something we'd take into calculation when plotting out a strategy.
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 14:39   #370
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Re: Second half of the round

Ultores did amazingly considering it was under heavy incs for 600-700 ticks. And to be able to finish #2, the others below lack a lot.
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 14:57   #371
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
As for keeping value(not crashing), that could have happened in def aswell and was unfortunate but it's not something we'd take into calculation when plotting out a strategy.
I felt it wasn't right for me to sit in #comebackstrong while Ascendancy and Ultores were at war, so I don't know for certain what the mood was at the time, so what follows is speculation. At the time, I got the impression that your decision to largely refrain from defense was a large factor in causing the crashing. In conversations about PA politics, I often mentioned the word 'collapse' in relation to Ultores. It's hard for people to stay motivated if they lose roids every night, and harder if that roid loss is mostly uncontested. If that is correct, then that is something you could/should have foreseen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fortran View Post
Ultores did amazingly considering it was under heavy incs for 600-700 ticks. And to be able to finish #2, the others below lack a lot.
Nah. All credit to Ultores for lasting for 700 ticks, but their ending rank is grossly distorted by the fact that ally win was already in the bag for BF. They did well in the last week exactly because they were no longer a threat to anyone in any way that mattered to them. Ultores' roid gain in the last week was ignored by the other alliances because BF, CT, Faceless and Ascendancy were contesting for planet win, while RainbowS, Newdawn and ODDR were at war. They could've gotten to 100k roids and no one would have cared.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 18 Jul 2015 at 15:06.
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 15:09   #372
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Nah. All credit to Ultores for lasting for 700 ticks, but their ending rank is grossly distorted by the fact that ally win was already in the bag for BF. They did well in the last week exactly because they were no longer a threat to anyone in any way that mattered to them. Ultores' roid gain in the last week was ignored by the other alliances because they were contesting for planet win. They could've gotten to 100k and no one would have cared.
My guess planet win for Asc/CT was plan B, consolation prize. So they were below expectations. At least in comparison with their previous achievements.
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 15:25   #373
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by fortran View Post
My guess planet win for Asc/CT was plan B, consolation prize. So they were below expectations. At least in comparison with their previous achievements.
I can't speak for CT, but from Ascendancy's perspective, it wasn't like we were going into the round aiming for alliance win. Planet win or gal win (with our forting strategy) maybe, but definitely not alliance win. So when we suddenly found ourselves in the running for alliance win after all, we were exceeding our own expectations. Once that window of opportunity closed, after the wars with Ultores and then Black Flag, we were simply back on course to meet our expectations. What other people expected of us may be another matter.
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 15:51   #374
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by DrunkenViking View Post
So i'd suspect it would have been more like -5% per night for 11 days vs. -8% for 7 days, leaving us just as skinny, only with less time left.
I just remembered something. At the time, I thought it might be better for you to bleed roids more quickly, to force CT/BF to move on by encouraging a rebellion by their member base: "Do we have to hit these shitty targets again? I want some roids!". If they'd started hitting other alliances (preferably Ascendancy, from your perspective), that would've given you an in to grow your block. That did happen in the end, kind of, but by then it was too late for you to get back in the running for alliance win.

(And yes, I realize this line of reasoning stands in direct contradiction to the one I used earlier to try to explain Ultores crashing. No objective truth.)
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 15:57   #375
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I can't speak for CT, but from Ascendancy's perspective, it wasn't like we were going into the round aiming for alliance win. Planet win or gal win (with our forting strategy) maybe, but definitely not alliance win. So when we suddenly found ourselves in the running for alliance win after all, we were exceeding our own expectations. Once that window of opportunity closed, after the wars with Ultores and then Black Flag, we were simply back on course to meet our expectations. What other people expected of us may be another matter.
we is too much ppl. easy to know that asc had a lot of members who thought different. but who cares right? i imagine u guys had a lot of fun. amazing round playing with friends, all comeback after sometime not playing at all. talking in wa group, ruining some players round. ah no, thats norse!
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 16:09   #376
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Re: Second half of the round

just to make a useless point, at the time that asc hit ult, i told command to hold on and wait to see what would happen next, dont hit asc at all. i knew that was going to be ult end. all the emotion put in it, kill asc at any price, etc, thats the first thing to motivate ppl crashing. changing goal to kill asc ruined our round. i can say that bcoz i asked command for a land with high loses, imagining they would never allow that, and they gave me the shoot.
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 16:29   #377
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Re: Second half of the round

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we is too much ppl. easy to know that asc had a lot of members who thought different. but who cares right? i imagine u guys had a lot of fun. amazing round playing with friends, all comeback after sometime not playing at all. talking in wa group, ruining some players round. ah no, thats norse!
Well, we don't really use whatsapp.
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 17:38   #378
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Re: Second half of the round

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we is too much ppl. easy to know that asc had a lot of members who thought different.
Not everyone in Ascendancy may want the exact same thing, but I'm pretty confident that few (if any!) people in Ascendancy went into the round expecting to have a reasonable shot at alliance win. We made fun of Forest for suggesting it, in fact, which is always a good indicator.

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i imagine u guys had a lot of fun. amazing round playing with friends, all comeback after sometime not playing at all. talking in wa group, ruining some players round. ah no, thats norse!
Describes us pretty well too!
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 17:40   #379
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I just remembered something. At the time, I thought it might be better for you to bleed roids more quickly, to force CT/BF to move on by encouraging a rebellion by their member base: "Do we have to hit these shitty targets again? I want some roids!". If they'd started hitting other alliances (preferably Ascendancy, from your perspective), that would've given you an in to grow your block. That did happen in the end, kind of, but by then it was too late for you to get back in the running for alliance win.

(And yes, I realize this line of reasoning stands in direct contradiction to the one I used earlier to try to explain Ultores crashing. No objective truth.)
Twist it a bit; we realised we were going to bleed and figured we might aswell bleed fast if we can make asc bleed equally fast forcing them to join us in hitting BF to keep up with the race. The thought being that with asc hitting BF, BF would need to target Asc since asc had more roids/value/score and we'd be able to grow up to asc's level before taking the heat. Took too long tho and our block wasn't the easiest to direct, and in the end you elected to nap BF again, so that was that.

As for the crashes, i can honestly say there was not a single emo line in #comebackstrong, with the exception of one crash where the crasher got pissed at the guys he launched with(tho they didnt know he tagged along). All business as usual in there. It becomes easier to not log in as often when you're not on route to winning since people go lazy, i guess thats why we had a few crashes.
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Unread 18 Jul 2015, 21:35   #380
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Re: Second half of the round

Asc was like a cheap hooker this round. We partied with everyone!
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Unread 19 Jul 2015, 22:52   #381
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Not everyone in Ascendancy may want the exact same thing, but I'm pretty confident that few (if any!) people in Ascendancy went into the round expecting to have a reasonable shot at alliance win. We made fun of Forest for suggesting it, in fact, which is always a good indicator.


Describes us pretty well too!
looking at the member list, i was another one who could suggest the same.
after first incomings early round, i saw u guys talking a lot about no DC or def at all in ASC, and all roids idd gone really easy.
very soon i realized that asc couldnt win for they own merits. so there was 2 options, try to win via politics, or the one i was thinking since last round, zhill/benneh helping bf to win, or just not allow ultores win again.
second option looks even more right now. and to make it even more clear, im 100% sure he never said a word in that direction. was always convincing asc arguing well and proving his points very nice. with asia team always going after ult, including this note:
<Appocomaster> so they armoued you up and pointed you forwards and fired you at CT?
<[Ult]agar3s> CT hit ult for like 800 ticks
<[Ult]agar3s> so it was obviously just returning the favor
<[CT]Sleep[4-1]> Guess we gotta hit ult for 1000 ticks next round to stop ult
<[CT]Sleep[4-1]> 800 ticks just doesnt work

so with all this said, i believe the anti ult players in asc won the ones who really cares about not bashing over any alliance with 200+ fleets just bcoz they have chances to win.
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Unread 21 Jul 2015, 16:15   #382
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
looking at the member list, i was another one who could suggest the same.
after first incomings early round, i saw u guys talking a lot about no DC or def at all in ASC, and all roids idd gone really easy.
very soon i realized that asc couldnt win for they own merits. so there was 2 options, try to win via politics, or the one i was thinking since last round, zhill/benneh helping bf to win, or just not allow ultores win again.
second option looks even more right now. and to make it even more clear, im 100% sure he never said a word in that direction. was always convincing asc arguing well and proving his points very nice. with asia team always going after ult, including this note:
<Appocomaster> so they armoued you up and pointed you forwards and fired you at CT?
<[Ult]agar3s> CT hit ult for like 800 ticks
<[Ult]agar3s> so it was obviously just returning the favor
<[CT]Sleep[4-1]> Guess we gotta hit ult for 1000 ticks next round to stop ult
<[CT]Sleep[4-1]> 800 ticks just doesnt work

so with all this said, i believe the anti ult players in asc won the ones who really cares about not bashing over any alliance with 200+ fleets just bcoz they have chances to win.

Ironically, Sleepless nor anyone else on Team Asia really had that much input into the decision to hit Ultores.
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Unread 2 Aug 2015, 09:21   #383
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Re: Second half of the round

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
I dont think anyone except forest thought that asc was a contender to win
lol

asc had the round won, all they had to do was carry on as they were

they decided to hit ult. they would probably still have won even then until ult told asc 'hit ct and co or we will bring everyone we can find and smash you' and instead of staying strong they backed down and sided with ult, thus pissing yet more ppl off.

but back to your post, yes they WERE contenders, and they WERE favourites to win with what, 2/3rds of the round gone.
The fact zhil wasn't as strong as I hoped to hold asc together doesn't change that fact

it does show though that yet again ult think they can threaten who they want into doing what they want, time and time again
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Unread 2 Aug 2015, 13:06   #384
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Re: Second half of the round

Make up as many excuses as you like, the facts don't lie. You predicted Ascendancy would win, and you were wrong. Get over it already.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 5 Aug 2015, 20:52   #385
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Re: Second half of the round

and this round, who gonna win forest?
ultores?
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Unread 6 Aug 2015, 03:22   #386
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Re: Second half of the round

GBP of course
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