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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 11:24   #51
Kal
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Yeah, because as paying customers, it's our responsibility to advertize for the game. Get bent.
No, its not your responsibility. It is PATeam's responsibility to make its customers want to play the game, and want to tell potential customers they should play the game.

This thread is an example of how PATeam has failed to provide an environment for that, and as such the ultimate responsibility lies with us.

However, we are not paid, we are not experts and we have our failings. It a sense we are no different from everyone else on the forums. We all want the game to have more players and the little things, such as the language we use in our forums posts, the way we talk to new players on irc all make a difference in the way the game is perceived.

It is PATeam's job to try to do theese things, but everyone can play their part regardless of how insignificant it might appear to be.
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 13:09   #52
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Re: Why should I come back?

The way last round was won doesnt serve as a good advertisement for the game. If the game having a good rep meant anything to PA team they would have done something about it. They didnt, so all is left is the consequences that follow:

Dont play. Its not worth starting to play, and its not worth coming back to play.


(yes im bitter - and I have every right to be!)
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 13:22   #53
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Re: Why should I come back?

1) Jolt will never ever see this thread...

2) IF it would really happen, that someone from Jolt would read this thread, do you really think they would put money into advertising PA if Ferretus would be welcomed back with a bunch of flowers and only kind words?

3) Ferretus acted cocky and Makhils response wasn't really THAT bad, so what? Achilles post pretty much sums it up.


edit: On topic: yes you should come back, there will always ppl who dislike you, as well as you will dislike ppl. that's not really something that should drive you away. this game can still be entertaining even if you ain't uberactive.
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 13:25   #54
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Re: Why should I come back?

Whats wrong with how the last round ended? :|
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 13:59   #55
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Yeah, because as paying customers, it's our responsibility to advertize for the game. Get bent.
Jester your an idiot and your the exact reason ive been saying for a long time that Its the community that's killed PA not Jolt despite what the community tries to make out

We play a MULTI USER game yet the core of this community would rather screw the game up and then blame Jolt for not investing in a game that if we are honest none of us would invest in because it would be flushing money down the toilet as the community just drives the players it would attract down the drain.

Ofc jumped up idiots like yourself just sit there and go "its not our job' and many even go as far as undermining attempts to make the place nicer (for example the likes of Idler who would through his actions would drive alot of people away and when we banned him for hit he would go over our heads to get himself unbanned, and idler isnt the only one to do this kind of thing)

So quite frankly some of you either need to wake up and realise that your actions do have consequences on this games success and adjust your actions for the better or you simple just need to piss off and let the people in this community who are willing to try and make this a place witha good community spirit like it used to be back
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 14:10   #56
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Re: Why should I come back?

This thread has turned dire and should die now.
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 14:12   #57
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Re: Why should I come back?

positive doesn't equal constructive however jester in that one thread of his has provided more use to PA than your useless drivel ever has or presumably will.
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 14:13   #58
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Ofc jumped up idiots like yourself just sit there and go "its not our job' and many even go as far as undermining attempts to make the place nicer
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 14:24   #59
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferretus
Why should I come back?
You should come back because despite all this arguing and bickering on all sides of every argument with regards to every aspect of the game, it's still fun and enjoyable to play if this genre of gaming is your particular brand of whisky.

If it wasn't then no one would bother arguing so passionately their views, with everyone aiming for the ultimate goal of making Planetarion, this game that they love better.

That's my answer to the opening question which seems to have been veered off ever so slightly
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 14:26   #60
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Re: Why should I come back?

Why do we not adjust ourselves out of fear of the possibility that our behaviour may one day be seen by Jolt? Because.
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 14:41   #61
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
1) Jolt will never ever see this thread...

2) IF it would really happen, that someone from Jolt would read this thread, do you really think they would put money into advertising PA if Ferretus would be welcomed back with a bunch of flowers and only kind words?

3) Ferretus acted cocky and Makhils response wasn't really THAT bad, so what? Achilles post pretty much sums it up.


edit: On topic: yes you should come back, there will always ppl who dislike you, as well as you will dislike ppl. that's not really something that should drive you away. this game can still be entertaining even if you ain't uberactive.
1) Biffy does read the forums and for a good few rounds Dom seemed to as as mods we would get a fair few messages from high up in jolt passed to us over any thread that was considered anti jolt. We dont seem to receive these now so maybe Dom doesn't read it any more but he may do

3) I do agree there was a slight cockyness about Ferretus and actually some inacurracies in his claims. In the rounds that ARS played where we had official rankings they were no where near top10 and even the other rounds its hard to say they were ever top10. Now yes if Ferretus goes in telling himself that hes some 'super leader' no matter what alliance he ends up in he's probally going to be dissapointed but I think if he did return and was a bit more realistic about his achievements and actually remember the struggles that ARS had as an alliance that fell in the training alliance group he would be impressed at how far alliances in the middle and even lower tiers have come from a command pov.
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 14:59   #62
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
positive doesn't equal constructive however jester in that one thread of his has provided more use to PA than your useless drivel ever has or presumably will.
There's no doubt Jester can and does provide alot of good, and tbh I was probably a bit harsh on him personally as he's no where near the worst. It was just his comment was idiotic as he implied that the community has no duty what so ever to help this game attract and keep players and its this head in the sand 'lets blame jolt for not investing money into big advertising drives' that we as a community needs to reverse. Its an important part of getting this game back on track and while there is areas that Jolt and PAteam need to also sort this is the only area which WE CAN REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE ABOUT as after all no matter how much moaning the community does its not going to persuade Jolt the games worthwhile investing in, the only thing that's ever going to do that would be numbers.

And I havent said everyone should be positive or for that matter everyone should agree with each other. This is after all a discussion forum and as any other mod will tell you while at times PATeam would like this place to be a 'PATeam' love fest with no negative comments we as mods always fight to allow you to be critical of things as negative stuff can be as constructive as positive stuff. That doesnt mean however everyone can act like complete twats, especially towards new players to either the game or the forum or players considering returning and I think everyone of us can improve our posting so we all do less baiting of each other, are less hostile ect ect
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 15:27   #63
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Re: Why should I come back?

You know that the bitchiest moaner on these forums is you right?
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 16:45   #64
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
You know that the bitchiest moaner on these forums is you right?
If you want to believe that all I do is bitch and moan then that's your choice BUT by doing so you seem to be taking a view that "differing opinions to myself and the vocal minority is bitching and moaning"

While we all have posts where we have bitched at another poster I think your find most of mine arent and when it does get like that its often as ive been provoked often by people trying to turn everything I say into me bitching and complaining because "I cant run my alliance well". This annoys me as often the issues arent ones that effect F-Crew or if they do very little and it often seems like certain people do it as a way to discredit my point or drag it off subject

Just because I have differing opinions to many and because I'm not scared of posting these opinions and fighting for what I believe does not make it bitching and its this differing of opinion thats good for the forum. Whats bad for the forum and the game is way that groups bury their head to problems they are part of and could help improve just because it doesnt have a negative effect and choose to resort to personal attacks and intimidation to drive these people away from atleast the forums if not the game (Or because you simply dont like the person whos posting)
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 17:54   #65
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
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You know that the bitchiest moaner on these forums is you right?
He's a long term poster, a supermoderator, and thus bears massive e-penis.
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 18:27   #66
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
He's a long term poster, a supermoderator, and thus bears massive e-penis.

and that have absolutly nothing to do with quality
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 21:30   #67
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kileman
The way last round was won doesnt serve as a good advertisement for the game. If the game having a good rep meant anything to PA team they would have done something about it. They didnt, so all is left is the consequences that follow:

Dont play. Its not worth starting to play, and its not worth coming back to play.


(yes im bitter - and I have every right to be!)
On the contrary. Last round was an excellent advertisement for the game. The 'elite' was toppled by a small gang of 'guerillas' with a clever plan. The inevitable was turned around.

This is an awful story:
Kileman won last round after a bunch of edging for position that only a handful of players cared about.

This is a good story:
Kileman was in line to win the round when his reign was toppled by a bunch of scheming Guy Fawkeses blew up parliament.

It would be even better if you had been 'abusing' your position in an alliance, or if you'd been whoring defense etc, but alas, we're stuck with what really happened. I just know that if FeNiX had been done that way, I'd have been laughing twice as hard.

Fact is, almost no one enters a round of PA thinking they're playing for the planet win. They just realize they're doing well enough at some point that they're in the running. Either by being miles ahead early on (Newt and Rember in round 20 anyone?) or by realizing their plan is solid enough that their growth will be competitive (Keizari in round 13).

What I do think this round revealed, is that PAteam need clarification on the planet/galaxy/alliance victory conditions. This round the galaxy rank was decided by an alliance, and the planet rank by a galaxy. I have seen almost every configuration of these things (planets and galaxies deciding alliance rankings, planets deciding galaxy ranks etc) and it always leaves a discongruence.
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 23:12   #68
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Re: Why should I come back?

well im still puzzled that everyone thinks its was a "clever" plan then everyone including pateam thought they had fixed that loophole rounds ago.

a retarded win by a retarded gal, cudos to pa, yay
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 23:34   #69
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
What I do think this round revealed, is that PAteam need clarification on the planet/galaxy/alliance victory conditions. This round the galaxy rank was decided by an alliance, and the planet rank by a galaxy. I have seen almost every configuration of these things (planets and galaxies deciding alliance rankings, planets deciding galaxy ranks etc) and it always leaves a discongruence.
I wasnt paying too much attention to the top galaxies so i'm curious about how Asc managed to decide the galaxy rank. What exactly did you do as an alliance in regards to the galaxy that other alliances weren't able to?
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 23:38   #70
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Re: Why should I come back?

Wolfpack decided the final galaxy rank, not ascendancy. (The other three galaxies without wolfpack members at the top received incoming either wolfpack or wolfpack-orchestrated, which varied in concentration, but would generally be described as heavy, over the last three days of the round.)
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 23:49   #71
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Wolfpack decided the final galaxy rank, not ascendancy. (The other three galaxies without wolfpack members at the top received incoming either wolfpack or wolfpack-orchestrated, which varied in concentration, but would generally be described as heavy, over the last three days of the round.)
Though I saw #1 gal tagged as ascendancy hence the assumption. Checking now seems I was thinking of #2 galaxy. Cheers for the explanation though
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Unread 10 Jun 2007, 23:59   #72
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Re: Why should I come back?

Just as a sidepoint you might have seen it, there were three ascendancy members in that gal. Rankings have always been decided by different groups in PA though. In the end a score based ranking system describes nothing beyond your ability to accumulate score in a given time period.

To bring up a slightly different issue, but related to the whole victory conditions bit, if for next round of PA the alliance ranks part of the universe screen was disabled, and no information given out in dumps etc, would we be able to declare a winner of the round beyond adding up ourselves the total score of each ingame tag?
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 09:00   #73
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
To bring up a slightly different issue, but related to the whole victory conditions bit, if for next round of PA the alliance ranks part of the universe screen was disabled, and no information given out in dumps etc, would we be able to declare a winner of the round beyond adding up ourselves the total score of each ingame tag?
ooo i like that idea
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 09:08   #74
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Re: Why should I come back?

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Originally Posted by wakey
Jester your an idiot and your the exact reason ive been saying for a long time that Its the community that's killed PA not Jolt despite what the community tries to make out
Yes, clearly that is why there are certain MMOPG games are thriving with lots of players, while no one would notice PA? A good game will grow eventually, either by word of mouth (possibly the best marketing tool) or active advertising. When Jolt bought PA it became there responsibility, but as we all know Jolt have no interest in this game what so ever apart from possibly making some money on it. I still find it strange they want the game to be paid, while every single person working on improving the game isn't even being paid for it (although it is "smart" ofcourse, since the game hardly costs them anything that way). If they would have had the slightest interest in improving the product they would have offered alot more (visible) resources for it. When it was a free product the community could have been blamed in some way, since we all could be expected to do our bit to help improve a great game. Now that is a paid product that responsibility ultimately lies with the owners, not with the community (although a good product would be advertized by the community anyway).
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 10:07   #75
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
To bring up a slightly different issue, but related to the whole victory conditions bit, if for next round of PA the alliance ranks part of the universe screen was disabled, and no information given out in dumps etc, would we be able to declare a winner of the round beyond adding up ourselves the total score of each ingame tag?
This is a brilliant idea, maybe have the alliance ranks not released till the end or maybe in the last 24 ticks of the round? I see too many alliance members or alliances in general feel demotivated too quickly after a rough night of seeing their alliance losing roids. Without the alliance ranks to be a distraction players can concentrate on doing their best.
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 10:55   #76
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Re: Why should I come back?

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Originally Posted by Benneh
im impressed i didnt get one warning this round o/\o
Thats because:

1./ I failed to report you correctly.
2./ By the time MH had advised me to do so, JBG and Jesterina had put forward such impassioned character references on your behalf, I advised the MH team that I believed you were extremely remorseful for your appalling behavior and requested they ignore my complaint!

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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 11:45   #77
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Just as a sidepoint you might have seen it, there were three ascendancy members in that gal. Rankings have always been decided by different groups in PA though. In the end a score based ranking system describes nothing beyond your ability to accumulate score in a given time period.

To bring up a slightly different issue, but related to the whole victory conditions bit, if for next round of PA the alliance ranks part of the universe screen was disabled, and no information given out in dumps etc, would we be able to declare a winner of the round beyond adding up ourselves the total score of each ingame tag?
I think Ferretus on this very thread shows WHY its not a good idea when he said

Quote:
ran a top 10 alliance for several rounds
ARS was never a top10 alliance in the rounds where we had official rankings and as far as i'm concerned they were a long way off being a top10 alliance in the other rounds they played. But who is right, no-one can ever be sure as its all about perception and comes down to which side has the most sway amongst the masses to make their version stick.

And there's plenty of other cases of peoples perceptions of alliances and their ability to pass this perception off as gospel. You have the various Block wars where one or two alliances from the winning block took the glory which some people think was right, others wrong. Then you have F-Crew of round 2 who were considered by WaC to be enough of a threat to go all out on us (including sending 1mill+ ships to attack one of our planets) not to mention the fact that Zeus invited what was perceived the top10 alliance to join his "Take down WaC" plan and we were one of those invites, Fury for the record werent invited until the last minute when RE and BT refused to get involved. Yet despite this we are often considered to have been insignificant in that round while an alliance like ICD (which wasnt even an alliance, just a umbrella group of alliances held together by a collection of NAPs and Joint attack pacts) who did little apart from land a few attacks on WaC who were falling apart at the time, something F-Crew had been doing even before WaC's internal issues became almost crippling.

Basically my point being without some hard figures that prove an alliance did best the winners basically decided in a popularity contest. If your an alliance led by people like Kargool, KJ and myself then your instantly going to be thrown 15 places back, if your an alliance that isn't liked and has a bad rep like CT your going to be pushed back despite achievements. Any alliance which ignores their own wars and just runs interference is probably going to jump 5 places as they are then visible to the right people ect ect.

Also while alliance losses may be 'disheaterening' as bane said imho the score ranks give motivation for people even if their own score goals arent possible as they can try and help the alliance gain a few ranks by continuing to attack and defend
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 11:58   #78
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Re: Why should I come back?

I like the current system tbh. When people doesnt tag up till later the ones being in the top 10 before the big alliances tag up are able to get some exposure and some players opt to join the alliances who lies in the top at the beginning of the round. That was more members gets spread downwards into the medium sized alliances.
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 12:00   #79
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Re: Why should I come back?

in response to wakey, ehhh?

noone cares an ounce about how good the alliances ranked 2 and downwards were really, can you remember who came second in r20 or r19 or r18, i know i cant. The fact is you have lost if you have not come first, or if you are an alliance who doesnt play for rank too much (e.g. f-crew) then you cant lose if you feel you have done what you wanted to.

All alliances should know the score and average score of their own members and intel etc of other alliances will mean you know whereabouts you are compared to everyone else it just means that the best alliance is not the guys with the biggest score, e.g. rock would of been ranked alot higher than the 14th? they finished this round (and rightly so)
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 12:19   #80
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juffled
can you remember who came second in r20 or r19 or r18
Vengeance, Omen-Angels, Omen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juffled
it just means that the best alliance is not the guys with the biggest score, e.g. rock would of been ranked alot higher than the 14th? they finished this round (and rightly so)
Maybe Rock should have ranked, like, third or second! No, really. Why would the alliance that wins the round not be the best alliance of the round? Unless you go plundering into personal preferences, you've got quite a task at hands.
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 12:26   #81
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
ARS was never a top10 alliance in the rounds where we had official rankings and as far as i'm concerned they were a long way off being a top10 alliance in the other rounds they played. But who is right, no-one can ever be sure as its all about perception and comes down to which side has the most sway amongst the masses to make their version stick.
Should a top ten alliance really be defined by score though? If it's a wargame we want and not a score accumulation game, in terms of the metagame involving alliances, then a score ranking is quite frankly irrelevant. For example Hidden Agenda were this round ranked ahead of Vision but I don't think many of us would imagine they could beat Vision if they went to war. In this sense this alliance ranks can be positively misleading.

Quote:
Also while alliance losses may be 'disheaterening' as bane said imho the score ranks give motivation for people even if their own score goals arent possible as they can try and help the alliance gain a few ranks by continuing to attack and defend
Sure it's nice, in ascendancy we have this function called apenis which gives score gain for tags over the last 72 ticks and it was nice when we were leading that for a good length of time while only being ranked fifth or sixth and it was nice overtaking various alliances in a meaningful way. However I did not say we would not lose out on some things. I just think we'd have a better game if what alliances had to aim for was military dominance instead of a nice shiny #1 score slot.

PS Don't be pedantic keiz, it's a rhetorical device.
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 12:34   #82
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Should a top ten alliance really be defined by score though? If it's a wargame we want and not a score accumulation game, in terms of the metagame involving alliances, then a score ranking is quite frankly irrelevant. For example Hidden Agenda were this round ranked ahead of Vision but I don't think many of us would imagine they could beat Vision if they went to war. In this sense this alliance ranks can be positively misleading.


Sure it's nice, in ascendancy we have this function called apenis which gives score gain for tags over the last 72 ticks and it was nice when we were leading that for a good length of time while only being ranked fifth or sixth and it was nice overtaking various alliances in a meaningful way. However I did not say we would not lose out on some things. I just think we'd have a better game if what alliances had to aim for was military dominance instead of a nice shiny #1 score slot.

PS Don't be pedantic keiz, it's a rhetorical device.
I slightly agree with you, score also shows who did best overall during 7 weeks, while some call Planetarion a war game, alot also call it a strategygame, and thus, the one that finishes 1st at the end of a round can call himself a winner due to the fact that he did best overall in one round that lasted 7 weeks. Maybe we could have point games in the game, like the point shirt in tour de france, the one that gainst most score or the one that lands the most xp in a weekend gets a free credit. But overall preformance should be ranked the way it is being done now.
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 12:51   #83
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Re: Why should I come back?

Really we need to decide what sort of game we're trying to have.
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 12:59   #84
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Really we need to decide what sort of game we're trying to have.
The manual which _should_ be the only point of reference for this says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manual
Planetarion is a space-themed game
However, yes, it is clearly needed a clarification on this.
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 13:03   #85
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Re: Why should I come back?

If it was actually just a space-themed game there wouldn't be any rankings or scores.
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 13:24   #86
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juffled
in response to wakey, ehhh?

noone cares an ounce about how good the alliances ranked 2 and downwards were really, can you remember who came second in r20 or r19 or r18, i know i cant. The fact is you have lost if you have not come first, or if you are an alliance who doesnt play for rank too much (e.g. f-crew) then you cant lose if you feel you have done what you wanted to.

All alliances should know the score and average score of their own members and intel etc of other alliances will mean you know whereabouts you are compared to everyone else it just means that the best alliance is not the guys with the biggest score, e.g. rock would of been ranked alot higher than the 14th? they finished this round (and rightly so)
Theres more people playing this game than just those in alliances that have a real shot of getting the #1 spot. so dont even try pulling the no-one cares card. Its another one of these awful traits the vocal minority of this community has, stop dismissing people just because they arent going to be #1.

And you say for example Rock would have been higher than the 16th they ended. I ask why exactly did they deserve to end higher? Yes they had a high average but lets be honest they 'fixed' their average somewhat. Most alliances could drop to just their core 20-40 members and get a high average. That doesnt however make these alliances a better alliance than someone with more members and a smaller average. Despite what their average says they simply didn't have the numbers to be much of a military threat to many above them. You certainly cant say with any certainty that they were better than the likes of ourselves, Orbit or HA who all did the reverse of Rock and artificially LOWERED their average with their recruitment policies.
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 13:34   #87
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Should a top ten alliance really be defined by score though? If it's a wargame we want and not a score accumulation game, in terms of the metagame involving alliances, then a score ranking is quite frankly irrelevant. For example Hidden Agenda were this round ranked ahead of Vision but I don't think many of us would imagine they could beat Vision if they went to war. In this sense this alliance ranks can be positively misleading.
.
Is it really that misleading though. Military strength isn't just about the quality of each person but how strong they are overall. The 25 extra people HA had are an asset and offset the lack of individual quality compared to vision somewhat. They didn't goto war so we don't know how much it offset by so we cant be sure if the positions were right or wrong but its certainly not as clear as just saying "Vision avg were better so they are the better alliance"


Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Sure it's nice, in ascendancy we have this function called apenis which gives score gain for tags over the last 72 ticks and it was nice when we were leading that for a good length of time while only being ranked fifth or sixth and it was nice overtaking various alliances in a meaningful way. However I did not say we would not lose out on some things. I just think we'd have a better game if what alliances had to aim for was military dominance instead of a nice shiny #1 score slot.

PS Don't be pedantic keiz, it's a rhetorical device.
What your asking for though isn't Military dominance, its perceived Military dominance by the masses. Score shows military dominance alot more fairly and without the same bias as basing it on peoples perceptions only.

Unless ofc what your really asking for is us to go back to a game where its last one standing which really doesnt benifit anyone as we get back to the game where half the game have been wiped out and are basically forced to give up before the half way point as they have just repeatedly been bashed to zero
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 13:37   #88
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
And you say for example Rock would have been higher than the 16th they ended. I ask why exactly did they deserve to end higher? Yes they had a high average but lets be honest they 'fixed' their average somewhat. Most alliances could drop to just their core 20-40 members and get a high average. That doesnt however make these alliances a better alliance than someone with more members and a smaller average. Despite what their average says they simply didn't have the numbers to be much of a military threat to many above them. You certainly cant say with any certainty that they were better than the likes of ourselves, Orbit or HA who all did the reverse of Rock and artificially LOWERED their average with their recruitment policies.
Surely you realise there's a difference between dropping to 40 members in the last 20 ticks of the round and never having more to begin with?
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 13:40   #89
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I just think we'd have a better game if what alliances had to aim for was military dominance instead of a nice shiny #1 score slot.

PS Don't be pedantic keiz, it's a rhetorical device.
Which brings us into a bit of discussion. Why is it not a game about military dominance? Because alliances are afraid to risk losing ranks during a war? Because alliances don't find warfare rewarding scoreswise?

Grabbing your point on rhetorical devices. People often talk about top alliances being crap for not fighting wars, and the lifting ROCK above what it's real rank during the round was made me figure, what really makes them better? If an alliance ranked 14th isn't bothering to make an effort to make it's way 13th even if they "acknowledge" or "think" they are "better" than the alliance(s) above them, why are they better? After all, if we want a wargame like JBG mentioned, there's no reason to figure "only top alliances should strive for military dominance" and the rest would happily float in space.

Granted, requesting small alliances that probably barely have exact intelligence on their enemies' locations to fight a war and target them is silly, as they just don't have the resources to do so. In fact, not many alliances nowadays have the resources - hardworking pairs of hands - available to achieve military dominance. This is a very familiar situation to myself. People seem to blame it on the "top alliances" for being "wussies" not fighting wars (and it's often the members of these lower ranking alliances that spout outcries for war on forums). What's ironic, is, that often the "top alliances" might be in a situation themselves where they're outresourced to fight a heavy war. Anyone who cries the lack of wars in Planetarion nowadays should take a good look in the mirror and think if they'd be willing to contribute hours and hours of time on daily basis, ignoring sleep routines, in order to put up a proper fight.

I won't do it anymore myself, and for example Ascendancy hosts a large number of former officers and high commanders that won't do it either. Why Omen used to have the tendency of avoiding wars is that during two of the three rounds I was in the Omen high command during we really had no hands to pull it off. The only round we were able to function effectively militarywise was 18, and that was perhaps our "best" round - we had some eager less-experienced hands from TGV with us, paired up with a set of experienced staff members it made a good team. And that showed in results - too bad, as I've discussed with several people who were participating in the unfortunate events, the wars went on with the perhaps quicker way instead of the other way.

I don't think alliances avoid wars because they don't want to achieve military dominance. It's because they acknowledge that it probably wouldn't be a succesfull or rewarding a task. This beats the purpose of removing the alliance rankings too. Assuming you'd ditch off the rankings, you would expect more wars? I'd estimate it isn't so - infact, the lack of wars would escalate itself. It'd probably mainly become alliances targetting planets or galaxies that are large and don't include their own people to gain such ranks. The bottom line which disencourages alliances from fighting wars, the lack of able and active staff, doesn't change. Thus, fighting a war that you'd expect to come heavy on your planets will only result in negative gains.

The bottom line is, the game mechanics don't encourage warfare much. Especially when fighting downwards, you tend to go on negative gains. There just doesn't seem to be enough interested officers to run a war. With an alliance full of mercenaries who demand service but don't want to contribute yourself, it's harsh going into a war. You can say "don't recruit the mercenaries then", but what will you recruit then? Nothing? If by recruiting those mercenaries you can sit yourself up to 1st and "win", why not then? If the potential loss is zero and the potential gain is positive the dominant strategy is to sit back and recruit. If the potential loss is negative and the potential gain positive, it's not a dominant strategy in compared to the previous one. Even so, without the alliance rankings around, someone will have to pay the price for a potential downfall in the struggle for military dominance. Priority will shift (as if it's not shifted already) to planet and galaxy strongholds instead of the alliance, and thus neglect the whole "point" of it. Recruiting mercenaries and sitting on stones and trying to gain most will prevail as the dominant strategy.

This dominant strategy applies nowadays for all alliances, small and big, 14th and 1st.



PS. So, if we'd have a better game with alliances' aiming for military dominance, why didn't the #2 alliance of last round, Ascendancy, aim for military dominance, JohnnyBGood?

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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 14:18   #90
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
What your asking for though isn't Military dominance, its perceived Military dominance by the masses. Score shows military dominance alot more fairly and without the same bias as basing it on peoples perceptions only.
I disagree, all score shows is who was best a accumulating it. A good example being the round win by Ascendancy, they managed to accumulate most score, but i don't think anyone doubts 1up's military dominance that round. Having a high scored planet / alliance doesn't really say anything about your military power. (fleet)Value is a better indicator for actual military power and dominance than score, although it doesn't show the whole picture either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Unless ofc what your really asking for is us to go back to a game where its last one standing which really doesnt benifit anyone as we get back to the game where half the game have been wiped out and are basically forced to give up before the half way point as they have just repeatedly been bashed to zero
But isn't this what games like Pa are all about? Building up your own planet and crushing/dominating your enemies, rather than just having some score simulator where all you have to do is land attacks and see your planet rise in the rankings. Imo true military dominance is alot more interesting than the current score accumulation we have, but it also has its problems. Its too bad though, that amongst the current players left there aren't alot willing to spend time on true warfare (although its understandable seeing how easy it is to get better ranks by hardly doing anything).
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 14:19   #91
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Re: Why should I come back?

I, personally in terms of my planet, and in terms of what I suggested for ascendancy did. If you understood how ascendancy worked you'd understand that's all any individual really does.
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 14:26   #92
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I, personally in terms of my planet, and in terms of what I suggested for ascendancy did. If you understood how ascendancy worked you'd understand that's all any individual really does.
Yeah, I understand to some extent how Ascendancy works - or worked when I was there. What I can say, as a bystander, though, is that Ascendancy didn't really put up a fight for military dominance, any more than Angels or Conspiracy did so. If you feel different please elaborate further. Otherwise, why would any other alliance set themselves on the given target either? What makes Ascendancy so special in compared to any given top10 or so alliance? Because they works different? Does that mean that when one alliance works different than others, the others are automatically assumed to be "standard alliances" and should be dictated by opinions of others (including those of the alliances working differently) and go plunging into wars "just for shits and giggles" and just to serve as the "expected/required of a top alliance"?

PS. Before you serve the "But I did", yes, I acknowledge, but you're missing my point: you're saying because Ascendancy works different it didn't struggle for military dominance in the way a "top" alliance that "works regularly" should; but why shouldn't Ascendancy aim for military dominance on an organized level, instead of just asking why other alliances don't do it, and critisizing other alliances for not doing it? Put otherwise, there would have been planets in Angels and Conspiracy too who saw themselves fighting for military dominance. Though it wasn't the whole alliance working for it.
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 14:56   #93
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Yeah, I understand to some extent how Ascendancy works - or worked when I was there. What I can say, as a bystander, though, is that Ascendancy didn't really put up a fight for military dominance, any more than Angels or Conspiracy did so. If you feel different please elaborate further. Otherwise, why would any other alliance set themselves on the given target either? What makes Ascendancy so special in compared to any given top10 or so alliance? Because they works different? Does that mean that when one alliance works different than others, the others are automatically assumed to be "standard alliances" and should be dictated by opinions of others (including those of the alliances working differently) and go plunging into wars "just for shits and giggles" and just to serve as the "expected/required of a top alliance"?

PS. Before you serve the "But I did", yes, I acknowledge, but you're missing my point: you're saying because Ascendancy works different it didn't struggle for military dominance in the way a "top" alliance that "works regularly" should; but why shouldn't Ascendancy aim for military dominance on an organized level, instead of just asking why other alliances don't do it, and critisizing other alliances for not doing it? Put otherwise, there would have been planets in Angels and Conspiracy too who saw themselves fighting for military dominance. Though it wasn't the whole alliance working for it.
This is just drivel. This round had alliance rankings so aiming for military dominance would be nothing more than a personal preference.
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 14:57   #94
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
I disagree, all score shows is who was best a accumulating it. A good example being the round win by Ascendancy, they managed to accumulate most score, but i don't think anyone doubts 1up's military dominance that round. Having a high scored planet / alliance doesn't really say anything about your military power. (fleet)Value is a better indicator for actual military power and dominance than score, although it doesn't show the whole picture either.



But isn't this what games like Pa are all about? Building up your own planet and crushing/dominating your enemies, rather than just having some score simulator where all you have to do is land attacks and see your planet rise in the rankings. Imo true military dominance is alot more interesting than the current score accumulation we have, but it also has its problems. Its too bad though, that amongst the current players left there aren't alot willing to spend time on true warfare (although its understandable seeing how easy it is to get better ranks by hardly doing anything).
Crushing your 'enemies' is fine in a single player game but multi player games have a major problem if this is the aim. You may find crushing a person fun but they wont find it fun, especially when all their hard work is undone and their planet is now nigh on unusable.

I don't know if you ever were in an alliance outside the main blocks pre PAX or if you are you were actually paying attention to what was going on around you but outside these 6 or so alliances you would struggle to find that many active players by the half way mark. When you have been bashed every time you reach a certain point you soon think sod it and give up, every person who did that then made it harder on their galaxy and alliance and made the chances of gal and alliance mates remaining playing smaller and smaller. And when a players quit half way through a round the chance of them coming back is reduced.

Its why in most MMORPG's the losses you get when you die are pretty small, often just gaining Experience Debt which has to be paid off as you go and slows your level progression until its paid off. Even in games like EVE where dieing can see you lose ships when you die you are able to insure yourself so you don't lose too much.

PA doesnt have that, you lose your fleet you get only a fraction back and are sitting ducks for people who want to have a go at you
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 16:05   #95
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This is just drivel. This round had alliance rankings so aiming for military dominance would be nothing more than a personal preference.
And you must have missed my post where I argued why removing the alliance score ranks wouldnt change things - or at least everything but the two last lines.

Why would it change anything? Why wouid alliances' preferences change. Please elaborate, and re-read my post on it. It's not like many alliances are much more alliances than groups of players in a tag.
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 16:13   #96
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Re: Why should I come back?

Oh yeah I'm sure the last thirteen rounds of an official alliance ranking system hasn't changed how people play the game at all. Personally I suspect the game is just dead and too small to sustain a real competition because most people just aren't bothered anymore. People still may not choose to go to war but at least then we could avoid the pretense that anyone's actually winning the game in an even vaguely meaningful sense.
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 17:03   #97
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Oh yeah I'm sure the last thirteen rounds of an official alliance ranking system hasn't changed how people play the game at all. Personally I suspect the game is just dead and too small to sustain a real competition because most people just aren't bothered anymore. People still may not choose to go to war but at least then we could avoid the pretense that anyone's actually winning the game in an even vaguely meaningful sense.
I think the lack of 'wars' is somewhat down to XP which has seen the game change from a primary war game to a more strategic game.

XP makes going out to bash people into the ground less profitable as you gain little yourself doing it and it can just help the alliance you try and dominate the ability to grow quicker.

I do think as you said it needs to be decided if its a war or strategy game, however if its decided to be a war game then it needs a major overhaul so that it encourages battles BUT at the same time has some kind of system that emulates Experience Debt so you aren't crippled by battles going wrong especially when your the defender as that just drives players away for good.
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 17:25   #98
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
I think the lack of 'wars' is somewhat down to XP which has seen the game change from a primary war game to a more strategic game.
Ironically, the most fairly won and decisive war* fought in all of PAX's existence (EXilition vs New Dawn) was won due to XP gains.

* I say fairly won, because no one begrudged EXilition that victory. They were better than ND, and everyone agreed that the war was won by the better party. I'm not saying that wars where people disagree on this point are not fairly won, but since the consensus was so clear in this case (as opposed to say any war between 1up and EXilition) I feel justified in saying this. I call it a decisive war, because it was between the #1 and #2 ranked alliances, and in the space of a week decided the final winning alliance. While I agree with you that Juffled was talking out of his ass when he says 'no one cares about any alliance but #1', I'd like to say that #1 is the only rank that matters in the sense that it is the only rank that actually signifies victory. Subh may have ended higher ranked than ToF this round, but does that actually signify that Subh beat ToF in their war? War on the lower ranks are more about jockeying for position and reputation than actual rank (at least the wars I fought with Ascendancy were that, they certainly weren't wars for second place). </end footnote>

Quote:
XP makes going out to bash people into the ground less profitable as you gain little yourself doing it and it can just help the alliance you try and dominate the ability to grow quicker.
Bashing people into the ground was only profitable when you could make 0-loss attacks. 0-loss defense and the bash limit are much stronger disincentives than XP is an incentive. Pre-PAX, there was almost never true 0-loss defense. In addition, 3 tick combat punished bad defenses more than 1 tick combat does and encouraged landing on defense (due to amortized costs).

XP definitely plays its part, but it's simplistic to view it alone as the impediment on war in the game. In particular, recall that highest value is awarded not to the alliance with most military might, but the alliance that fights the least. Only in the case where all competitive alliances are involved heavily in wars is 'military dominance' the deciding factor in a value war. Surely I can't be the only one to have noticed the disappearance of regular outcries of fencesitting** in the last few rounds?

** Excepting of course the completely ridiculous bitter whines from people without a clue.
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 17:45   #99
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Re: Why should I come back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Oh yeah I'm sure the last thirteen rounds of an official alliance ranking system hasn't changed how people play the game at all. Personally I suspect the game is just dead and too small to sustain a real competition because most people just aren't bothered anymore.

Yeah. One thing I believe changed the alliance scheme was 1up's start with the anti-block propaganda machine. Obviously the tag scheme has had a great impact too, but on the last point of people not being bothered I agree 100%. This is why

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBG
To bring up a slightly different issue, but related to the whole victory conditions bit, if for next round of PA the alliance ranks part of the universe screen was disabled, and no information given out in dumps etc, would we be able to declare a winner of the round beyond adding up ourselves the total score of each ingame tag?

...

I just think we'd have a better game if what alliances had to aim for was military dominance instead of a nice shiny #1 score slot.
This wouldn't really change anything - not anymore, if it had ever.
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Unread 11 Jun 2007, 17:56   #100
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Re: Why should I come back?

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Round 17 - Rank 3 - Omen (Zik)
Round 18 - Rank 2 - eXilition (Zik)
Round 20 - Rank 7 - Destiny (Zik)
Round 24 - Rank 2 - Conspiracy (Xan)
Round 28 - Rank 4 - Ascendancy (Xan)
Round 66 - Rank 9 - Ultores (Etd)
Round 83 - Rank 10 - #METOO (Zik)
Round 85 - Rank 3 - QQ (Etd)
Round 89 - Rank 2 - VGN (Zik)
Round 91 - Rank 9 - VGN (Zik)
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