Jolt meeting, Your questions needed.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by biffy

In addition to taking the game from the scrap heap to a now stable footing

Isn't that marketing talk for having hit rock bottom? Can't get much more of a stable footing than that, really.

[biffy]

During the time I've been involved with Planetarion PA Team have contributed hugely to the game's successful running. I'm sorry if you got a different impression from my previous post.

Jolt has invested resources in the development of the game since the start of this year, as it di last year. Without those resources I doubt you would have seen a Planetarion game so far in 2004. But that is a minor point of course.

With regards to your various other questions I'll wait until after Forest's Q&A thing as some of the points there will most likely be raised in that.

[Leviathan]

Originally Posted by pablissimo

Apart from supplying servers, what has Jolt actually done above and beyond PA Team? Have you pushed for specific gameplay changes? Performed any significant market research into why PA is stagnant? Funded or even just supported any off-shoot ventures into experimenting with different avenues that PA's future could explore? Brought in coders external to the project to assess the feasibility of the more adventurous suggestions put forward by the community?

Let's live in the real world for a minute. All companies are in business to make a profit. Why should Jolt invest in the game when all most people seem to do is complain about the fact they are paying to play. Where is Jolt to get the funds to do all you ask. These things cost money.

[waffle]

Originally Posted by biffy

During the time I've been involved with Planetarion PA Team have contributed hugely to the game's successful running. I'm sorry if you got a different impression from my previous post.

Jolt has invested resources in the development of the game since the start of this year, as it di last year. Without those resources I doubt you would have seen a Planetarion game so far in 2004. But that is a minor point of course.

With regards to your various other questions I'll wait until after Forest's Q&A thing as some of the points there will most likely be raised in that.

Sad to see that you chose to do this with Forest. It only makes his e-penis that much larger. He isn't that much of a force in the communnity.

[pablissimo]

Originally Posted by Leviathan

Let's live in the real world for a minute. All companies are in business to make a profit. Why should Jolt invest in the game when all most people seem to do is complain about the fact they are paying to play. Where is Jolt to get the funds to do all you ask. These things cost money.

You missed the point and direction of my post, I'll elaborate on the meaning. I was questioning what Jolt has done for the game that it is taking credit for under the sweeping 'back from the grave-esque' comments besides providing servers and bandwidth, and questioning why PA Team's role seemed to be being played down with regards to this turn-around, since explained. Jolt as the company that took over PA must have done so with some kind of vision, and that vision is far from clear.

With regards to your post, no, not all businesses are in business to make a profit, at least in the short-term. A lot would be more willing to sacrifice short-term profit for a long-term increase in customer base, something which has been the blight of PA to date. Jolt are possibly the only one of the contenders for the game way back when that have the resources to allow this, and I'm not talking 'running the game for free', see the parallel dev bit below.

I'm fully aware that 'things cost money' but thanks for pointing that out. Pushing for gameplay changes costs nothing, market research would have been along the lines of 'a questionnaire on the Jolt portal' which last time I checked was owned by Jolt so I'm not exactly seeing a cost here. Since current PA Team members are volunteers and as such unpaid, I'm not sure why you assumed that these external coders would be paid anything either; I was suggesting drawing on the pool of skilled coders both from the PA Community and more significantly the much larger pool available from the Jolt community as a whole of which we are now part, allowing for parallel development of the next round/experimental rounds while the main round provides the funds that Jolt needs to recoup.

[Leviathan]

Of course, pushing for gameplay changes is what this thread is about.

And I think a lot of credit should be given to Forest for making the effort to get something done. But we must all not be naive enough to believe that any major changes made to Planetarion will have a likely effect on the income Joly gets from it.

[Smudge]

Originally Posted by biffy

To actually buy a failed company / product, invest in it as Jolt did during 2003, keep it going even when you are losing money and then eventually turn it around is quite an achievement. To dismiss that as something any of the potential bidders at the time could have done assumes they wouldn't have let it get into the same state as that which resulted in having to be sold at all in the first place, or developed it into their own pet project which disappeared when their enthusiasm waned.

In addition to taking the game from the scrap heap to a now stable footing, Jolt has, aided by the effort and dedication of a number of PA Team volunteers, produced a speedgame series, a solid r10.5 and an enjoyable r11 (even for those of us active in 1:1) in the space of six months. Yes we need to do more and have perhaps missed some opportunities during that time but I consider the last six months to have been a fairly successful time in the life of Planetarion, something that the increase in player numbers over that time backs up

Right, time for a long fashioned rant. The only reason, in my eyes, Planetarion was being sold off was because 5th Season (Sorry if its the wrong number) couldnt support it anymore. After the game went down a couple of times, doomsayers from all over the place came along, and Jolt stepped in as a stop gap. To say you took the game from the scrap heap, I think, is a bit OTT. There was still a player base there and there was still a game running - this is not a scrap heap. Granted its a bit more stable now (Havnt played this round, not sure whats happening re: Alliances, blocks etc), but there still is uncertainty. You mention the PA Team volunteers - how many of the voulunteers have now quit PA Team? I can count atleast 5. The Speedgame series, to be honest, sucked. That is no way a good point. If you wish, and if you dont believe me, I can rant on, but Im going to stay on subject (for once).

Originally Posted by pablissimo

Apart from supplying servers, what has Jolt actually done above and beyond PA Team? Have you pushed for specific gameplay changes? Performed any significant market research into why PA is stagnant? Funded or even just supported any off-shoot ventures into experimenting with different avenues that PA's future could explore? Brought in coders external to the project to assess the feasibility of the more adventurous suggestions put forward by the community? Even considered moving the game forwards as opposed to simlpy 'bending' the existing infrastructure to what the existing members want in constrast with what prospective members seek? Been actively promoting the game? Been actively forthcoming with developmental information, with news about Jolt's plans for the game and where Jolt would like to see Planetarion in x months time? Had significantly more community interaction beyond 'A Jolt/PA Liason posting in the odd thread'?

After reading the follow up with Pablissimo posted, I still had questions to be asked. Viewing the Jolt website, the only mention of PA I have seen is on the forums, where the link is directed to here, a couple of news items, talking about the purchase and new rounds and 1 banner ad. Market research into PA stagnating would be brilliant for Jolt to do, as well as the other points raised. The main sticking point I have at this point is where Pablissimo mentioned about the developmental information. The only area where this could be considered is at i16 (UK LAN event) when R10 was supposed to have been shown off to people, but it was stopped at the last minute.

Originally Posted by Jolt Press Releases

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Jolt Online Gaming Ltd (Jolt), announces the hosting of the massive multiplayer game, Planetarion.

United Kingdom, Aylesbury, 11 December 2002- Jolt, agreed terms to provide the network infrastructure, subscription management and maintenance of the massive multiplayer game, Planetarion.

Planetarion, which has attracted over 180,000 players, will now benefit from utilising the network that supports Europe’s largest online gaming service. Jolt will provide full hosting, bandwidth and day-to-day management, including the latest high specification web and dB servers.

Dominic Silk, CEO of Jolt.co.uk said;

“We are very happy to be working with Planetarion. We are confident that Jolt will far exceed the players expectations with regard to performance and will provide an enriched playing environment for the stalwart Planetarion community.”

I would like to draw your attention to the bottom 3 lines, and ask a few questions. What does Mr Silk think the players expectations were then at the buy out, and now, 22 Months(ish) down the line? Also, reviewing the other items in the Press Release area of Jolts website, they are investing heavily in other games and other pieces of hardware - when, if ever, will Planetarion get to see this happening here?

[wakey]

Originally Posted by biffy

To actually buy a failed company / product, invest in it as Jolt did during 2003, keep it going even when you are losing money and then eventually turn it around is quite an achievement. To dismiss that as something any of the potential bidders at the time could have done assumes they wouldn't have let it get into the same state as that which resulted in having to be sold at all in the first place, or developed it into their own pet project which disappeared when their enthusiasm waned.

In addition to taking the game from the scrap heap to a now stable footing, Jolt has, aided by the effort and dedication of a number of PA Team volunteers, produced a speedgame series, a solid r10.5 and an enjoyable r11 (even for those of us active in 1:1) in the space of six months. Yes we need to do more and have perhaps missed some opportunities during that time but I consider the last six months to have been a fairly successful time in the life of Planetarion, something that the increase in player numbers over that time backs up.

The problem is all thats great and you probally would ahve had a great deal of respect for doing so IF Jolt hadnt of done a "New Labour". By this I mean making promises that they no doubt knew they couldnt meet. There were so many little things that when you were trying to win the community over at the start you promoised but which either never appeared or if they did were very half hearted. The marketing for example is one of these areas, Jolt promoised that they would market the game to get new blood in but on the whole marketing is left down to the community to do. What Jolt did was place a half page ad in a single PC mag and put a [age up on their portal A single ad in a magazine especially one thats not the biggest selling one isnt going to do a great deal and the page on your portal is almost ALWAYS out of date.

Its a bit cliched but honest is the bets policy as you dont raise peoples hopes only to then dissapoint them. If you were realitsic at the start we would have all looked at where we were now and would think "wow jolt are doing a fairly good job here" where as we are all thinking "Jolt are a bunch of lieing bastards whom couldnt give a shit about this game as long as they can fleech as much money from us as possible"

[mist]

Originally Posted by biffy

Jolt has, aided by the effort and dedication of a number of PA Team volunteers, produced a speedgame series, a solid r10.5 and an enjoyable r11 (even for those of us active in 1:1) in the space of six months

so, you'd be happy for me to comment freely on jolt's involvement in the above, given my time in pateam?

-mist
ps, i'd say more, but pablissimo's post is far better than i'd have produced :/

[Smudge]

I never, ever thgt id say this, buy I agree with Wakey

[Phil^]

would the wisest course of action not be to wait till after forests q&a thing. i fyouve got questions to ask, then by all means give them to forest to ask on your behalf. this thread imho is becoming little more then a place for everyone to (unfairly) flame jolt
im half-tempted to close the thread as it is.

[wakey]

tbh though Phil^ alot of it isnt unfair flaming, alot of this boils down to false promises being made at the start which has understandably caused unrest. Its like saying the critism Labours getting is unjustified. Its a problem of Jolts own doing by making such bold promises and they are just going to have to learn to live with it and try and change peoples opinions through their actions rather than trying to sweep it under the carpet by getting the threads closed/deleted and such like

[Smudge]

and you can bet your bottom dollar if this thread is closed / deleted, another one will pop up

[Forest]

Originally Posted by Phil^

would the wisest course of action not be to wait till after forests q&a thing. i fyouve got questions to ask, then by all means give them to forest to ask on your behalf. this thread imho is becoming little more then a place for everyone to (unfairly) flame jolt
im half-tempted to close the thread as it is.

Ive not passed the questions to Jolt (not that there are many), as this has turned into a decent discussion, and I would like to see a proper outcome from that b4 we move on further.

If u wanna do anything, please feel free to delete the blatent flaming by Waffle, who unlike others who are against my ideas, doesnt put any decent argument into his statemenst and just comes across as a silly little boy.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Smudge

and you can bet your bottom dollar if this thread is closed / deleted, another one will pop up

Well as i've pointed out in the past when hes closed threads all it achieves is to give off an image that they are trying to cover things up which which makes people more hostile and sees the situation really kick off .

You can simply overmoderate discussions like this and make the situation worse and while Jolt (and obviously PATeam whom Jolt are putting pressure on due to it ) dont like it its neccesary to leave threads like this to go their own way as long as it doesnt become too abusive (ie a thread where every post is profanities and no discussion) because the customers feel let down and want to make these feelings be known and as long as this is allowed to happen it will wind itself up.

[Phil^]

actually they arent putting any pressure on me. and wakey, as a mod you should be acting responsibly, not just randomly flaming jolt by compairing them to (gag) new labour
no-one deserves that comparison :P

[JC]

There is a difference between flaming and criticism.

Back to the topic of this thread, when is the almighty Forest going to sort this meeting out? This thread was made 8 day ago...

[Kal]

when he gets some decent questions?

[waffle]

Originally Posted by Forest

Ive not passed the questions to Jolt (not that there are many), as this has turned into a decent discussion, and I would like to see a proper outcome from that b4 we move on further.

If u wanna do anything, please feel free to delete the blatent flaming by Waffle, who unlike others who are against my ideas, doesnt put any decent argument into his statemenst and just comes across as a silly little boy.

You said you would stop recieving questions when - last week?

Granted I could be flaming you, but I"m just voicing my opinion that you shouldn't be doing this. You aren't pa-team, you aren't the leader of the communnity, whatever you think you are, you aren't. Why don't you leave this into the hands of the people that should be doing this.

[JC]

Originally Posted by Kal

when he gets some decent questions?

Is that supposed to be some flippant answer directed at me as though i am asking a stupid question?

Forest asked for the meeting, so i think it is fair to assume he had an idea of what he wanted to dicuss with Jolt before anyone else suggested questions. Its been 8 days since this thread was started so i reckon everyone that is going to read it will have read it by now and forwarded any questions they wish to be asked to Forest.

I dont think i'm out of line asking when all this is going to take place. If it gets dragged out for too much longer people will have forgotten what it was all about in the first place.



Edit:

I read Kal's reply without noticing Forest had replied just above it. Seems their isnt going to be a meeting for now so i guess that answers my question .

Edit 2:

I must have gone temporarily blind because Forest's post was above my post this afternoon, my apologies. No point deleting this though, some of it is kind of relevant.

[mist]

Originally Posted by Phil^

would the wisest course of action not be to wait till after forests q&a thing. i fyouve got questions to ask, then by all means give them to forest to ask on your behalf. this thread imho is becoming little more then a place for everyone to (unfairly) flame jolt
im half-tempted to close the thread as it is.

that would be sad. while the thread has been rather harsh on jolt i don't think it's involved any flaming. most of the discussion has been rational and realistic. i don't think anyone's even questioned biffy's parentage yet :P

seriously. jolt can either answer its critics or ignore them. one will be good for them, the other bad. which would closing this thread fall in to?

-mist

[Chaos]

How about you ask them why they kicked alch for just trying todo something to help PA.

[biffy]

When Jolt took over Planetarion I'm sure they had grand plans for it but often issues such as financial restraints mean you have to re-evaluate your initial ideas. Jolt wants Planetarion to be a success and is committed to extending the support it gives for the game in areas such as marketing, but this costs money and until this most recent round the game's financial outlook was unclear. Now this round has been a relative success we can start planning how to improve things for future rounds.

[Smudge]

I hope I dont have to quote the Press Release again Biffy, but we were told by the Jolt CEO

Originally Posted by Jolt CEO

We are confident that Jolt will far exceed the players expectations with regard to performance and will provide an enriched playing environment for the stalwart Planetarion community

Granted from a buisness POV you dont want to invest loads of money in a new buisness, incase it goes tiits up,, but where is the enriched playing environment? A New look portal?

And from what you said above Biffy, how / when will we be able to see the results of the marketing and the success in the future rounds? Round 12? Round 15? Round 20?

[Chaos]

I actualy would be happy if I felt Jolt actualy cared about the community.

Right now I feel that Jolt thinks the big alliances are a blight apon PA, and they got rid of all of us then the remaining ppl would be happy and more ppl would play.

They want a universe filled with n00b that don' t get bashed every 2 sec.
what they fail to realize is that those only play one round then leave.
the only thing bringing new ppl into PA are the alliances dragging old members back and getting their members to drag their friends into PA.

and I know Jolt don't care what is said on the forum as they consider it unimportant cuz most players don't post on the forum. What they don't realize again is all those ppl that are reading the forums and going "I Agree totaly". Judging the community based on forum posts doesn't show total reality, but it is a good indicator to how most ppl feel.

And claiming the Community hurt PA by talking bad about Jolt on the forum. since new players might read it. What are we supposed todo? sit down, shut up and hope for the best?

[Smudge]

Chaos - I agree with you. One of the major player bases in PA is the alliances. To some extent they must be "satisfyied" that is worth there time playing. If not, they can decide not to play and take there playerbase to another game, ie Legion moving from PA to Warcraft and 2 other games which currently escape me. If new players read the forums and see we are "Jolt bashing", true it would turn them away and we would be hurting PA. But we wouldnt be in this situation in the first place if Jolt knew what they were doing.

[wakey]

tbh Chaos and Smudge your views are just as wrong as those you think jolt have (which tbh I dont think they do have those views, if they did they have the power to make real changes gameplay wise but they leave PATeam to handle it with the view that they know better than as they are part of the game)

The alliances as they are atm are as much a hindrence on the games growth as they are a benifit. For every player the big alliance retain for the game they also lose the game atleast one person. They simply end up strangling large areas of the game which does produce a situation where new players leave after one round and as such what is needed is a situation in the middle of the two views so that the alliances are maintained BUT lose some of their power they have now to lossen the stranglehold they have and to let the lowrr areas thrive and hence keep players around for more than a round

[Chaos]

if you remove the ability for ppl to trive by making an effort ppl will get fed up and leave.
those that play round after round are those that are dedicated. they make sure Jolt get's money in the bank.
the lower areas as you call them are ppl that arn't dedicated. and will prob get bored and leave also.

Dedication and effort should be rewarded not held back.

PA's community is what makes ppl want to stay. and if Jolt want PA to trive they should do something to help n00bs through the transition from casual player to dedicated player.
not strangle the dedicated players so they get fed up and leave.

[Smudge]

I see what your saying Wakey and agree with it, but we do need the large alliances as well as the new players - we need some sort of mid point. Also chaos, i agree with your point, and to an extent, in my eyes, Jolt arnt really concerned with the new players. Alch, who had the wizard idea of the Mentors scheme along with someone to try and address this, but this should have been done sooner by Jolt, and not being waited for this to happen.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Chaos

if you remove the ability for ppl to trive by making an effort ppl will get fed up and leave.
those that play round after round are those that are dedicated. they make sure Jolt get's money in the bank.
the lower areas as you call them are ppl that arn't dedicated. and will prob get bored and leave also.

Dedication and effort should be rewarded not held back.

PA's community is what makes ppl want to stay. and if Jolt want PA to trive they should do something to help n00bs through the transition from casual player to dedicated player.
not strangle the dedicated players so they get fed up and leave.

You can take a simplistic look at the situation and say "the lower end players generally quit after one round so lets ignore them" but you have to ask why most of them quit. You have to look at the cause of a problem and deal with that not ignore the cause and just deal with the result.

I mean lets look at the causes of people leaving

Smaller Players - Bashing making the game a chore to play and no fun
Bigger Players - Lack of players in community making for fewer viable targets and hence games less fun

What people seem to fail to realise is just giving up a slight bit of power can have an immense difference on the lower end of the game which in turn its benificial to bigger players and its exactly why you cant just say "let the big alliance get as big and powerful and have as much control as they wish" because doing so means players wont stay on

[Chaos]

just what do you mean by "giving up a slight bit of power" ?

[Smudge]

Wakey, your points of the two classes of players is a good one, both with the reasons stated. Some ways of resolving this are listed below

Idea 1) Bot Planets. This will probably be the least popular and most flamed, but it would satisfy the big players who wants roids and a challange

Idea 2) 2 Universes. This would mean clusters 1 -> 299 would be for new players and 300 + for the big alliances. This would mean that there would be no "alliance bashing" of new planets , and the new planets a chance to play the game without being bashed

Idea 3) Quests. We had them a couple of rounds back, and they followed the "ideal" path for a tech tree. Why were they removed is an interesting question

Idea 4) Mixture of all 3. Thou hard to implement, it would be worth it.

Note - added this post in suggestions forum as well.

[wakey]

Exactly what a slight bit is is hard to really judge as its all a bit of trail and error and theres many areas where power can be removed and redistributed but the key to it is alliances need to give up their "self given" power where they beleive they are bigger than the game and thus arent willing to put up with change that controls them a little more. They would rather sit there refuse to budge and play the "we will quit" card which lets be honest makes improveing the game for all hard

[Chaos]

The alliances arn't totaly part of the game. they are en entity by it's own. fully capable to survive PA's demise.
Hence they will not be willing to agree to anything that could jepardise that.

I belive alliances are willing to follow any rule not jepardising it's survival as a whole.

[Smudge]

Again, the idea of an Alliance Representitive Meeting is a good one, but we all know what happened the last time that was tried to be implemented

[Forest]

I am mailing the questions to biffy now.

For all your info, there was fk all interest, and pateam basically got in so much shit (jolt threatened to sack them all) that I have been asked to stand off. As no pateam = no pa, i will do this cause though im quitting at end of round, others will wish to play on.

[Blacknova]

(for legal reasons this post is opinion only)

At this rate there will be quite a few people leaving (quite possibly myself as well), in particular it appears due to Jolt's rather.... hrm... interesting interpretation of "employee relations" and "customer service" ....

I know I will be recommending to my friends, who are all with nildram (the business bit of the Jolt/Nildram setup), and we put in quite a bit more money than most will ever have done (£500 in total customer revenue each month), that they leave, there have been other factors I have been critical of, this however is the final straw imo...

Nova

[mist]

given that jolt repeatedly say that they care about planetarion, i'd be interested to see how they see it's development progressing post a sacked pateam.

-mist

[Kal]

we are getting sacked? damn i was just starting to like the company car

[mist]

'twas a hypothetical type thingy, given that you've allegedly come close to all being sacked

-mist

[Forest]

Originally Posted by Kal

we are getting sacked? damn i was just starting to like the company car

Feel free to ignore my statements, but do me a favur and dont make me start posting logs and shit, cause i can if im made out to be a liar or something

[biffy]

There was a trust issue that came up when this first became public, as I'm sure you can appreciate if Jolt can't trust PA Team then it kinda leaves us in a difficult position with regards to what we can actually allow them to do when you consider that they are interacting with paying customers and privy to commercially sensitive information. That issue has more or less been resolved now.

[Forest]

And i ahve stepped back form proceedings in response to that.

I am however, willing to step forward again if need be.

I just feel, fomr evidence shown, that many mnay ppl feel more strongly about pa than jolt do, and it would be nice if jolt 'showed an interest'. That would make a lot of difference to a lot of ppl

[waffle]

Originally Posted by Forest

Feel free to ignore my statements, but do me a favur and dont make me start posting logs and shit, cause i can if im made out to be a liar or something

And you should know that logs mean fk all.

[waffle]

Originally Posted by Forest

I am mailing the questions to biffy now.

For all your info, there was fk all interest, and pateam basically got in so much shit (jolt threatened to sack them all) that I have been asked to stand off. As no pateam = no pa, i will do this cause though im quitting at end of round, others will wish to play on.

I was going to have a co-op planet next round, but now that you are leaving, i dunno if i can pay. Would have been great fun destroying your round for a 2nd round in a row. .

[Forest]

Originally Posted by waffle

I was going to have a co-op planet next round, but now that you are leaving, i dunno if i can pay. Would have been great fun destroying your round for a 2nd round in a row. .

lmao?

ive had prob more incoming than anyone in the game.
Ive not been active, cause of my job (my gal held the fort).
Im top 200, and higher than that on value.
Im having a great run and enjoying it very much.

Ruined my round? Hardly, u cant even co-op me u silly little boy. IF I was u I would be so ashamed that such concentrated efforts to kill me have failed

[cypher]

lmao waffle when will you ever grow up?:/

[Smudge]

Simple answer...... no

Originally Posted by JC

I still dont get why this is all going through Forest .

I think it is clear that pa crew are secretly 1up,since they let Fat_sid have control of ship stats.

[Forest]

One of the better discussions from the past, if the flaming is ignored...