Angels vs eXilition - a battle

[gzambo]

any alliance that can maintain the no 1 spot deserve's to be winning

[ChipZ^]

Originally Posted by gzambo

any alliance that can maintain the no 1 spot deserve's to be winning

Not atall, you can be #1 and not deserve to be there as equally as u can fight ur ass off all round, end #10 and not deserve to be there.

[Knight Theamion]

Originally Posted by ChipZ^

Not atall, you can be #1 and not deserve to be there as equally as u can fight ur ass off all round, end #10 and not deserve to be there.

Then you should've done better, smarter, wittier.

The #1 position is always deserved, since the situation is for everyone the same.

[ChipZ^]

Originally Posted by Knight Theamion

Then you should've done better, smarter, wittier.

The #1 position is always deserved, since the situation is for everyone the same.

So everyone that has won anything ever deserved it? Even if they cheated? Even if they had some sort of advantage over others (i,e if it was 2+ alies vs 1)?? No i dont think u can say just because someone won something the necessarily deserved it.

[JonnyBGood]

If they cheated they did not deserve it because they did not play within the rules. If they did play within the rules then I'd say yes they did deserve it. They played the game and they did it better than you, whether it was outroiding you, using their fleets more wisely or just bashing you into the ground with every other ally in the universe.

[Phil^]

i dont think you can call 2 allies vs 1 cheating, unless they had the login details for each other or something

[Virall]

isn't it called war?

[Jonas]

Whoever is on top will have the numbers against them from any1 wanting to get to #1... sooner or later, 1up and eXilition has to stop fighting if Angels are running away with the win... Its not gonna change. Imo whoever ends on top deserves it, ofc unless they cheated or anytihng...

I thnk both 1up adn eXilition were surprised by Angels offesive style this round, and the average etc. I think they both expected it to be a fight between them, and now they got a 3rd contender coming up aswell. Not to mention ND lurking around in the top 3. I also think the fact that the rest of top 10 is somewhat even might make this a very interesting round

-J-

[ChipZ^]

Originally Posted by Phil^

i dont think you can call 2 allies vs 1 cheating, unless they had the login details for each other or something

Never called it cheating, was giving an example how a better more didicated allaince could end up losing when imo they would deserve to win

On a side note: 1up DESERVED their place in r13 after putting up such a good fight?? Angels DESERVED to come #2 after fence sitting all round?? i think not.

[mazzelaar]

Originally Posted by Jonas

I thnk both 1up adn eXilition were surprised by Angels offesive style this round, and the average etc. I think they both expected it to be a fight between them, and now they got a 3rd contender coming up aswell. Not to mention ND lurking around in the top 3. I also think the fact that the rest of top 10 is somewhat even might make this a very interesting round

-J-

Not at all. If I could be arsed I'd dig out a quote from me in the predictions thread saying that, without doubt, the winner could come from any one of eXilition, 1up, Angels with ND having a very strong chance in the right political arena. The round is playing out exactly as I anticipated it so far (aside from the 1up performance so far) but there's still an awfully long way to go.

[mazzelaar]

Originally Posted by ChipZ^

Never called it cheating, was giving an example how a better more didicated allaince could end up losing when imo they would deserve to win

On a side note: 1up DESERVED their place in r13 after putting up such a good fight?? Angels DESERVED to come #2 after fence sitting all round?? i think not.

Thats kind of a harsh comparison given the fact you were talking about winning rounds. There's no way you'd win a round doing what Angels did in round 13. To get to the top spot, blocking or not, you have to put up with concentrated incoming. As much as eXilition outblocked 1up by far in round 13 they still deserved the win becuase the opposition simply weren't up to the job of putting them under significant enough pressure.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by mazzelaar

Thats kind of a harsh comparison given the fact you were talking about winning rounds. There's no way you'd win a round doing what Angels did in round 13. To get to the top spot, blocking or not, you have to put up with concentrated incoming. As much as eXilition outblocked 1up by far in round 13 they still deserved the win becuase the opposition simply weren't up to the job of putting them under significant enough pressure.

I would disagree. It is true that angels were limited due to the way circumstances evolved whilst 1up were only going for number one which they always seem to do (except for r12 wasn't it?) the failure of 1up to reach number one and then finishing behind angels is more due to their incorrect estimation of their own strength and angels rather better estimation of their own. Of course this excludes such things as the fact that certain, if not all, alliances would rather have fun, play a good round and lose than playing some boring drivel for the 10^nth time. Unfortunately such considerations of enjoyment are difficult to factor into a rational game theory analysis :(

[mazzelaar]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I would disagree. It is true that angels were limited due to the way circumstances evolved whilst 1up were only going for number one which they always seem to do (except for r12 wasn't it?) the failure of 1up to reach number one and then finishing behind angels is more due to their incorrect estimation of their own strength and angels rather better estimation of their own. Of course this excludes such things as the fact that certain, if not all, alliances would rather have fun, play a good round and lose than playing some boring drivel for the 10^nth time. Unfortunately such considerations of enjoyment are difficult to factor into a rational game theory analysis

At risk of being stupid; what does any of that have to do with the post I made? I'm not sure how it's pertenent to what I said in reply to Chipz^. My point was that Angels deserved thier number 2 position in round 13 but there would never be a way to finish top of the tree without a war.

[Zero]

From what i can see the alliance that is at the number 1 spot at any point in the first half of this round is goung to recieve incs from the other 3 contenders (there being only 4 contenders to win the round imo, sorry if you think otherwise) and the alliance that wins the round well and truely deserves it (with blocking or not, politics is part of the game ofc)

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by mazzelaar

At risk of being stupid; what does any of that have to do with the post I made? I'm not sure how it's pertenent to what I said in reply to Chipz^. My point was that Angels deserved thier number 2 position in round 13 but there would never be a way to finish top of the tree without a war.

Ah I rather left my own point that it has been shown that you can fencesit to number one r6 NoS/WP comes to mind and I'm reliably informed that FAnG didn't really experience a staggering number of incomings in r10.5. I seem to recall r5 being over about four ticks after it began, or perhaps before it even started, as well. Which goes to show that you can actually get to number one without a really intensive war sometimes. Someone should do a graph correlating the political versus the military component in each round win, I like graphs. Apologies for failing to explain myself though.

[Seed of Chaos]

Originally Posted by mazzelaar

At risk of being stupid; what does any of that have to do with the post I made? I'm not sure how it's pertenent to what I said in reply to Chipz^. My point was that Angels deserved thier number 2 position in round 13 but there would never be a way to finish top of the tree without a war.

lmao

[mazzelaar]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Ah I rather left my own point that it has been shown that you can fencesit to number one r6 NoS/WP comes to mind and I'm reliably informed that FAnG didn't really experience a staggering number of incomings in r10.5. I seem to recall r5 being over about four ticks after it began, or perhaps before it even started, as well. Which goes to show that you can actually get to number one without a really intensive war sometimes. Someone should do a graph correlating the political versus the military component in each round win, I like graphs. Apologies for failing to explain myself though.

No probs with the explanation but I must disgree with the crux of your post.

NoS/WP, Round 6. That was hardly fencesitting. Fury et al got lamped from tick 0 onwards and then a quality war started between FoS and XETA with flvtt making a staggering comeback.

Round 10.5 was utterly laughable.

I think you're confusing fencesitting with simply outblocking the entire universe. The scenarios you pointed out are beautiful examples of one block dominating another whereas what Angels did in Round 13 was to have no allies and no enemies and therefore no incoming of a concentrated and damaging nature. However, to prevail in that round they would have had to get involved in a block war which would definately, had it happened, fully justified thier number one position.

[JonnyBGood]

I wouldn't say I'm confusing them. I'm saying they're both political methods which can lead to "victory" while not necessarily being involved in an extremely difficult war. For example if angels had managed to keep a bit closer to exilition in r13, or if 1up et al had held them back a bit more, it would have left them in position for "stealing" a victory at the end. Take advantage of the alliances hitting exilition, jump on them when they least expect it and stay non-stop on top of them for the remaining few days of the round.


In regards to r6 my point was that NoS/WP did not really experience very heavy incomings during the round. I can't imagine FLTV considered them the primary threat towards the start so they'd hardly get attacked an excessive amount there and, if I recall correctly, nos/wp stayed napped with xeta during the second war (please correct me if I'm wrong).

[mazzelaar]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I wouldn't say I'm confusing them. I'm saying they're both political methods which can lead to "victory" while not necessarily being involved in an extremely difficult war. For example if angels had managed to keep a bit closer to exilition in r13, or if 1up et al had held them back a bit more, it would have left them in position for "stealing" a victory at the end. Take advantage of the alliances hitting exilition, jump on them when they least expect it and stay non-stop on top of them for the remaining few days of the round.


In regards to r6 my point was that NoS/WP did not really experience very heavy incomings during the round. I can't imagine FLTV considered them the primary threat towards the start so they'd hardly get attacked an excessive amount there and, if I recall correctly, nos/wp stayed napped with xeta during the second war (please correct me if I'm wrong).

You just added a whole lot of "ifs" which need to fall perfectly into place for the scenario to work so we've instantly deviated from the original points. The only way to ensure victory would've been to go toe to toe with eXilition for at least a short period of time which instantly negates your "no need to fight" methodology. The situation you're talking about is obviously possible but unlikely at very best due to the huge number of breaks you'd have to catch, most importantly of which is the dominance of eXilition at the point of the round you're tlaking about in terms of available fleet and value.

As for round 6 I can't speak directly for WP but NoS definately weren't napped with XETA. To the best of my knowledge Dingo made some "arrangements" with Fury and the crew to ensure the demise of XETA. During that war I can confirm that the NoS/WP in C7 dealt with plenty of XETA incoming.

[Forest]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

If they cheated they did not deserve it because they did not play within the rules. If they did play within the rules then I'd say yes they did deserve it. They played the game and they did it better than you, whether it was outroiding you, using their fleets more wisely or just bashing you into the ground with every other ally in the universe.

Or recruiting the alliance they had been fighting with all round after it collapsed, just to jump past other alliances.

[Heartless]

Originally Posted by Forest

Or recruiting the alliance they had been fighting with all round after it collapsed, just to jump past other alliances.

That happens every round - ship jumpers it is called and I have not seen a single alliance turning those down (except Eclipse in PAX maybe, for their own stupidity)

[Morden]

Part of the ship jumping problem is the size of the universe.......... the players who have a lot to lose by there alliance dying. I.e the ones high ranked, can easily switch to another because they have contacts in most of the other good alliances. been like it pretty much forever, but even worse due to the playerbase :-)

as for this round. I dont really think the round has begun yet, ND are being very clever in fighting the battles on there own terms. Angels were doing that, but have now opened themselves up for a war of attrition. Something that eX are very very good at.

Not to mention the likelyhood of 1up and ND putting more pressure on angels soon due to how tasty they are.

Personally I would not be at all shocked if Angels ended up fighting eX and a some 1up/ND incomming for a while, and are then overtaken at the end by ND.

but then again, im one of those crazy people who think taking the lead this early is suicidal because you paint a huge target on your back which says "Do you honestly want to put up with us saying 'we beat you'"

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by Morden

Part of the ship jumping problem is the size of the universe.......... the players who have a lot to lose by there alliance dying. I.e the ones high ranked, can easily switch to another because they have contacts in most of the other good alliances. been like it pretty much forever, but even worse due to the playerbase :-)

as for this round. I dont really think the round has begun yet, ND are being very clever in fighting the battles on there own terms. Angels were doing that, but have now opened themselves up for a war of attrition. Something that eX are very very good at.

Not to mention the likelyhood of 1up and ND putting more pressure on angels soon due to how tasty they are.

Personally I would not be at all shocked if Angels ended up fighting eX and a some 1up/ND incomming for a while, and are then overtaken at the end by ND.

but then again, im one of those crazy people who think taking the lead this early is suicidal because you paint a huge target on your back which says "Do you honestly want to put up with us saying 'we beat you'"

Hey Morden, tbh there is a point in a round where you simply have to attack the alliance(s) needed to become #1. If we had waited a few more weeks, maybe the gap would have become too big, maybe not.

To Mazz, I guess like everyone else, we also learned from past mistakes.

This being said, there are still 4 contenders for #1 and NOTHING that happened the last week has influenced the potential victory of any of those 4 alliances.

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by Heartless

That happens every round - ship jumpers it is called and I have not seen a single alliance turning those down (except Eclipse in PAX maybe, for their own stupidity)

There is a difference between 5-10 ship jumpers from neutral/enemy alliances and 30-40 pple joining up 2 weeks before the end when the alliance accepting them fought them for 95% of the round.

But then again, not many alliances would pass that oportunity to win, but we all know how most pple look back on that win

[Alki]

Originally Posted by Morden

but then again, im one of those crazy people who think taking the lead this early is suicidal because you paint a huge target on your back which says "Do you honestly want to put up with us saying 'we beat you'"

Hit the nail on the head there amigo, but then again you have no choice, its a delicate situation, and a v delicate universe atm

[Gio2k]

I am very pleased to see that many people recognize Angels as a top contender this round. Some of them expected it with good reason, some of them didn't expect it, which makes me even more pleased of what Angels have done so far. Tonight eX hit back hard, and we are yet to see what will happen the next days, Angels score lead is not older than 2 days, and i think we have very hard nights ahead of us now. I hope we will keep up and get that #1 spot over 1up and eX.

[pig]

Kudos to angels, tbh I think we all knew how capable you were circa r12 when you left mistu and gained the top 10 position. Now with ministry under your ranks you are more than a cotender.

Anyway

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by pig

Kudos to angels, tbh I think we all knew how capable you were circa r12 when you left mistu and gained the top 10 position. Now with ministry under your ranks you are more than a cotender.

Anyway

Thanks m8, we're doing our best

And well, in r12/13/14 we showed we had quality and potential. This round we hopefully will show that we can actually DO something with this and prove we've learned from past mistakes (or just less good decisions).

[pig]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

Thanks m8, we're doing our best

And well, in r12/13/14 we showed we had quality and potential. This round we hopefully will show that we can actually DO something with this and prove we've learned from past mistakes (or just less good decisions).

Im glad that you guys are learning from mistakes, im sure you will be the first to admit you have made mistakes, and im sure no one is complaining about the way youre playing this round.

[The_Fish]

Agreed pig, I think Angels has gained a lot of respect from everyone this round. It's good to see another alliance step upto the plate, let's hope they can keep it up (but not too much )

[NitinA]

Originally Posted by The_Fish

Agreed pig, I think Angels has gained a lot of respect from everyone this round. It's good to see another alliance step upto the plate, let's hope they can keep it up (but not too much )

Agreed. Props to Angels for stepping up.

-NitinA

[Brimstone]

I think you can sum up this whole thread with "May the best man/alliance win, (and let that alliance be <insert chosen alliance here>"

I too am impressed with the way this round is turning out so far, and hope that it is a sign of what is to come in the future.

I have not seen things this closely contended in many many rounds, and certainly not since PAx.

At this point i would like to thank the PAteam for setting up an absolutely cracking round so far. It is one of the best i have seen since the 'golden days' of PA.

Though i would dearly have liked to see IPC come back for this round, alas i think that boat has not just sailed but been sunk and rotted away with all hands lost.

[Rinoa]

Angels need to be stopped from winning because kjeldoran and alch and the pr team dont post as much when theyre winning
But yeah i imagine ex,1up to both fully concentrate their fire on angels pretty soon, and maybe ND will grab hold of their balls and jump aboard too. It was hinted at earlier but maybe exilition will let angels gain a higher roidcount and slightly higher values up until the first real war, as exilition will gain a hell more xp afterwards.
Oh and well done to Insomnia for their position and LCH doing a NoS 'we dont exist' malarchy and sneaking in the back door for some nice average scores and roidcount.

[ChipZ^]

Originally Posted by The_Fish

Agreed pig, I think Angels has gained a lot of respect from everyone this round. It's good to see another alliance step upto the plate, let's hope they can keep it up (but not too much )

I finally have respect for Angels

[MaxMilliaN]

i guess its easier to roid both sides then engaging in any war for alliances. rather get easy roids and put your alliance in safe position then real war eh? (guess the same as WP did in r13)

Angels hasnt felt the heat of getting targeted by several alliances each night, so lets see how they perform when they do.

[Morden]

hmm? have Angels fleets not landed yet? if not then it would explain why they've lost 4k roids so far. Very sneaky if thats what they're doing, as it means they'll cap some of there own losses back.

if they've already landed..... well it will probably be reversed tomorrow ;-)

I look forward to sleeping long nights, while you lot fight it out like boys :-)

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by MaxMilliaN

i guess its easier to roid both sides then engaging in any war for alliances. rather get easy roids and put your alliance in safe position then real war eh? (guess the same as WP did in r13)

Angels hasnt felt the heat of getting targeted by several alliances each night, so lets see how they perform when they do.

Fair point

Though you can't win if you never try ...

[Morden]

Originally Posted by ChipZ^

I finally have respect for Angels

I was under the impression eX were already hitting them........

its not like its a big shocker that Angels decide to hit someone who's already hitting them ;-)

and yes, as Max says, the true metal of an alliance is tested when they face incomming from many fronts

[ChipZ^]

Originally Posted by Morden

hmm? have Angels fleets not landed yet? if not then it would explain why they've lost 4k roids so far. Very sneaky if thats what they're doing, as it means they'll cap some of there own losses back.

if they've already landed..... well it will probably be reversed tomorrow ;-)

I look forward to sleeping long nights, while you lot fight it out like boys :-)

eX have come out to play

[The_Fish]

and to piggy, right ChipZ

[ChipZ^]

Originally Posted by The_Fish

and to piggy, right ChipZ

Pft get ur own targets!!!! :P

[Tesla]

Originally Posted by MaxMilliaN

i guess its easier to roid both sides then engaging in any war for alliances. rather get easy roids and put your alliance in safe position then real war eh? (guess the same as WP did in r13)

Angels hasnt felt the heat of getting targeted by several alliances each night, so lets see how they perform when they do.

We have been targetted everyday already thank you very much. Albeit this night "the lite shine briter on us than usual".

As for you who said misc alliances should join the show. Is it needed ? Unlike certain others we don't grow when everyone is hitting us. (make of that what you will )

[Treveler]

The main problem with fencesitting or avoiding war is that it’s easy for your embers to get complacent. If you hardly get incs its no need to sit up all night waiting for def calls, and when you’re not used to losing roids it’s harder to coop with being roided. I’m pretty sure Exil will walk over Angels the next couple of days...

[noah02]

From what I can see (aint playing this round) angels seem to be doing what they do a lot of but actually getting more score for a change.
I have noticed when Angels have played they always get a good decent roidcount but fail to actually get anywhere with score hence there fence sitting style but all the same its good to see them at the top maybe they will even win this round and I would have to say its been a long time coming but i think they have worked hard enough past rounds to deserve a win at least once.
GL Kj for the rest of the round hope you keep exili and ND at bay (but I will let you off if 1up go past ye )

[Tesla]

Originally Posted by Treveler

The main problem with fencesitting or avoiding war is that it’s easy for your embers to get complacent. If you hardly get incs its no need to sit up all night waiting for def calls, and when you’re not used to losing roids it’s harder to coop with being roided. I’m pretty sure Exil will walk over Angels the next couple of days...

Unless the HCs have been giving my bg HUGE random targets to hit then we haven't 'avoided' jackshit. As for walking all over us, we'll just have to see about that.

edit: This is what 90% of the Ministry peeps signed up for. Killing eX

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by Tesla

Unless the HCs have been giving my bg HUGE random targets to hit then we haven't 'avoided' jackshit. As for walking all over us, we'll just have to see about that.

edit: This is what 90% of the Ministry peeps signed up for. Killing eX

It's ok Tesla, it's his opinion and even if he's correct, it is expected that you get massively hit if you're roidfat and #1 ... Also we both know how Treveler feels about Angels (he has shown that quite often before) so ...

Noah, thx m8 and we'll try our best. That's basicly all we can do isn't it?

[MaxMilliaN]

Originally Posted by Tesla

We have been targetted everyday already thank you very much. Albeit this night "the lite shine briter on us than usual".

As for you who said misc alliances should join the show. Is it needed ? Unlike certain others we don't grow when everyone is hitting us. (make of that what you will )

hehe, i didnt say other alliances should join the show. thats what u make out of it tho. i just saw some logs from how much defcalls Angels had this night, which is "normal" amount to several alliances.

i think im saying the truth that alliances like 1up/eXi both had quite alot more inc then Angels both have performed quite well under those circumstances. i just havent seen how Angels can perform under those circumstances yet, and im dying to see it

[MaxMilliaN]

Originally Posted by Tesla

Unless the HCs have been giving my bg HUGE random targets to hit then we haven't 'avoided' jackshit. As for walking all over us, we'll just have to see about that.

edit: This is what 90% of the Ministry peeps signed up for. Killing eX

what i fear is you bring the Ministry spirit to Angels aka "we lost roids, lets quit" . hopefully not

[Virall]

We now have a situation that this morning I hadn't anticipated; Angels have lost out it seems to eXilition last night and have been 'put' back to second place. With eX's lead extended to two million and with a lowered roid defecit of now just 8 thousand roids, it's just got a whole lot more exciting at the top.

I too have gained a lot of respect for Angels this round, as they take on eX and put themselves into the firing line. A big credit (and this may be contraversial, but please remember my opening statement) has to go for eXilition's remarkable comeback in 24 hours. Can they stay there? One thing is for sure: there are a lot of HC's pondering and twiddling their thumbs today, coming up with efficient and new ideas and ways to attack in numbers and successfully decapitate their opponent.

1up are trundling along like a morris minor, but will it only be time before Sid reveals a nitro boost button?

ND have the capability to be a thorn in someone's side now, they've obviously been attacking and defending in a dedicated fashion and their weight will surely be significant in what we now have; a war.

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by MaxMilliaN

hehe, i didnt say other alliances should join the show. thats what u make out of it tho. i just saw some logs from how much defcalls Angels had this night, which is "normal" amount to several alliances.

i think im saying the truth that alliances like 1up/eXi both had quite alot more inc then Angels both have performed quite well under those circumstances. i just havent seen how Angels can perform under those circumstances yet, and im dying to see it

Don't make it seem like we've had an easy ride untill here either. You both know that Angels have endured heavy incs already this round (though not so heavy as last night), as did exi as did 1up.
I think we deserve our current position (as does exi btw). this round we chose for a different approach then in r13, that's all.

And about those ministry boys, Tesla knows alch will cut off their balls if they even makes a little sound, let alone quit after 1 rough night