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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 14:24   #351
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
but neither can Angels or Subh. They would basically be doing all the work while comprimising their ranking to let NewDawn win. Its hardly an incentive to help out is it
Incorrect - the gap to ND will close, others below them are not suffering massive losses of roids so it will be a natural closure of that 'gap'. A gap now is not a gap in a week's time.

The idea is that by removing 1up, they open up the round, giving everyone political room to manufacture a victory out of the situation. And one can hardly call free roids 'work', especially when the attacks will result in a considerable opening up of the round, which will be to their advantage.

There was a 27 million gap with approximately 2 weeks left last round - a 15 million gap with this much left in the round isn't that much, and nor is a 23 million one. Both are eminently bridgeable and with the top 2 going at each other hammer and tongs, that gap will close.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 14:25   #352
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
Ohhh yes going undefended and end high is really hard as proven this round. Your such a fantastic player.

You quit as in leaving your alliances and it usually happen shortly after you have whined your ass of after losing a few roids.
not fully true trev... usually he just gets kicked from every alliance he plays in for being a muppet
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 14:40   #353
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Pft every1 is talking about Angels and ND, but its F-Crew that are in 3rd and pushing for the top spot! F-Crew ftw!
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 14:43   #354
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

I still dont see the benefit though that Angels and Subh would get from helping NewDawn to hit 1up.

I can see the logic from NewDawns point of view. That must be one of "help us to kill 1up and one of us will be #1". But what has Angels and Subh got to gain if they join the war? 1up are no longer the fattest targets. 1up pack a punch when attacking, why would they want all that incoming for the sake of little roids and xp?

Next where was NewDawn when Subh attacked 1up? You werent willing to help them out when they had in my opinion a better chance at gaining #1, yet you want to take #1 and you turn back round to alliances and ask for there help.

If I was angels or subh I would sit back and relax. At the moment they arent getting ND or 1up incoming. That equates to steady growth. Why throw away a 5-10k roid lead for the sake of a war which doesnt benefit you. It makes no sense in my eyes.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 14:46   #355
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeyLove
Pft every1 is talking about Angels and ND, but its F-Crew that are in 3rd and pushing for the top spot! F-Crew ftw!
, no offence to F-Crew but you wont win. You are a good alliance who do something for the game but your chances of winning are about as big as Kjeldoran gaining the #1 planet. It just simply wont happen (no offence kjel).

F-Crew are doing exactly what Angels and Subh should do and showing how to play the game. They are roiding there way to the top, avoiding a fight that isnt there and they are reaping the awards. Props to F-Crew for playing a good round so far.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 14:50   #356
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimmick
If I was angels or subh I would sit back and relax. At the moment they arent getting ND or 1up incoming. That equates to steady growth. Why throw away a 5-10k roid lead for the sake of a war which doesnt benefit you. It makes no sense in my eyes.
Because if ND get brushed aside, they are definitely destined to not win this round. They were hardly able to do it on their own, were they?

They wouldn't throw away a roid lead on 1up, because Sid has expressly said that he's targetting ND and that he said he wouldn't blink first.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 14:54   #357
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
Untrue - or at least only a part truth.

It's nearly ALWAYS in everyone's interest that someone else gets the incs rather than themselves. (I say nearly always as there are certain circumstances where getting incs has a long term benefit outweighing the short-term consequences).

For any alliance aiming to improve their alliance rank then it's always good for them if any alliance above them - who they have a realistic chance of catching - gets incs.

For any alliance aiming for #1 it's always good for them if others hit the current #1.

For your sweeping statement to be true you would have to assume that ALL alliances were aiming for #1. As a simple example of why your statement is false, consider a hypothetical small alliance that was allied to the current #1. How is it in THEIR interests (and they'd be part of your "everyone") for the #1 to get hit?

I'd accept that anyone aiming for #1 alliance gains. Beyond that the statement is only true in general to the extent that ANYONE being hit other than yourself gives some marginal benefit due to your own reduced incs. 1up hitting ND benefits some alliances MORE than ND hitting us does - specifically any alliances would would like to finish ahead of ND but don't think they can finish #1 and any alliances who would otherwise be receiving incs from 1up.
So which particular allaince is losing out then from 1up getting attacked? I can't think of any, which is where the "everyone" statment comes in to play.


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If exil were able/willing to discuss "logics" on the forums then I'd have no problem engaging in debate with them. But all the while their supporters on here are of the standard of yourself and Max I see no possibility of any useful discussion here.

P.S. I'm glad to hear my "minons" don't have water retention problems.
So you paint all eX posters with the same brush as Chika (who was and will never be eX) and max (who we all know is a forum muppet). I think that is a little unfair, we do contain a handful of posters who can keep a discussion going and even use this "logic" thing your talking about.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 14:57   #358
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimmick
I still dont see the benefit though that Angels and Subh would get from helping NewDawn to hit 1up.

I can see the logic from NewDawns point of view. That must be one of "help us to kill 1up and one of us will be #1". But what has Angels and Subh got to gain if they join the war? 1up are no longer the fattest targets. 1up pack a punch when attacking, why would they want all that incoming for the sake of little roids and xp?

Next where was NewDawn when Subh attacked 1up? You werent willing to help them out when they had in my opinion a better chance at gaining #1, yet you want to take #1 and you turn back round to alliances and ask for there help.

If I was angels or subh I would sit back and relax. At the moment they arent getting ND or 1up incoming. That equates to steady growth. Why throw away a 5-10k roid lead for the sake of a war which doesnt benefit you. It makes no sense in my eyes.
From Angels POV, they need to hit 1up in order to have a chance on getting #1, there's no way 1up will bow for ND's inc. alone. At this point ND and Angels need eachother, 1up is simply too strong. Sitting back won't work because in a while 1up will finish ND and then they can go for Angels. And we all know neither Angels or ND can match 1up in military strength.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 14:59   #359
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipZ^
So which particular allaince is losing out then from 1up getting attacked? I can't think of any, which is where the "everyone" statment comes in to play.
Look further to the left on that line, its a hypothetical situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipZ^
So you paint all eX posters with the same brush as Chika (who was and will never be eX) and max (who we all know is a forum muppet). I think that is a little unfair, we do contain a handful of posters who can keep a discussion going and even use this "logic" thing your talking about.
Yes, you do have a couple of good posters in there, but they dont post as often (generally) as the bad ones and so the general impression conveyed as a result is that exil is full of halfwit trolls. Clearly this is not the case - theres only one or two bad eggs but its sad that the worst posters also tend to be the loudest and spammiest

( ps, anyone taking bets on how many pages this thread will end up at? )
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:01   #360
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
From Angels POV, they need to hit 1up in order to have a chance on getting #1, there's no way 1up will bow for ND's inc. alone. At this point ND and Angels need eachother, 1up is simply too strong. Sitting back won't work because in a while 1up will finish ND and then they can go for Angels. And we all know neither Angels or ND can match 1up in military strength.
They dont need to hit 1up until ND stop hitting 1up. At the moment they can sit back, get some roids and score. ND are doing the job they could be doing but why take an extra incoming when ND are hitting 1up every night. They might as well carry on getting fat targets, fat roids and fat xp instead of participating in a war which has no positive results for them at this point of time.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:03   #361
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimmick
They dont need to hit 1up until ND stop hitting 1up. At the moment they can sit back, get some roids and score. ND are doing the job they could be doing but why take an extra incoming when ND are hitting 1up every night. They might as well carry on getting fat targets, fat roids and fat xp instead of participating in a war which has no positive results for them at this point of time.
What I tried to say is that ND does not have the strenght to beat 1up. If Angels wait they only make it harder on themselfs because 1up will be the one coming stronger out of this.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:03   #362
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Because if ND get brushed aside, they are definitely destined to not win this round. They were hardly able to do it on their own, were they?

They wouldn't throw away a roid lead on 1up, because Sid has expressly said that he's targetting ND and that he said he wouldn't blink first.
You're getting far too hung up on blinking. How about we just have a fight, huh?

I still haven't really seen you give a reason for Subh and Angels to join in. They are currently growing nicely without any nasty waves from us and they have none of the hassle of hitting shite ratio targets that already have wave upon wave on them during the 1up/ND roid swapping excersise.

It's ironic that you are encouraging alliances not to do what you applauded ND for last round.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:06   #363
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
What I tried to say is that ND does not have the strenght to beat 1up. If Angels wait they only make it harder on themselfs because 1up will be the one coming stronger out of this.
What you're importantly missing is that ND obviously have the capability to stunt the 1up growth which allows Angels to grow in relative peace whilst remaining fresh and ready for the event of a war bedraggled 1up or ND.

This is exactly what ND did last round whilst claiming to be playing "sensible politics". I find the irony comical.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:09   #364
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Incorrect - the gap to ND will close, others below them are not suffering massive losses of roids so it will be a natural closure of that 'gap'. A gap now is not a gap in a week's time.

The idea is that by removing 1up, they open up the round, giving everyone political room to manufacture a victory out of the situation. And one can hardly call free roids 'work', especially when the attacks will result in a considerable opening up of the round, which will be to their advantage.

There was a 27 million gap with approximately 2 weeks left last round - a 15 million gap with this much left in the round isn't that much, and nor is a 23 million one. Both are eminently bridgeable and with the top 2 going at each other hammer and tongs, that gap will close.
Its not like Angels and Subh have a nice healthy lead over those following them which they can fall back on like alliances in the past have had. The positions 3 to 9 are extreamly tight so sacrificing gains to help ND is quickly going to see the fall into 9th, if not futher as LCH and BIG are both within 20 mill of third and if someone gets involved and starts falling off the back of the chasing pack they could end up in the clutches of these two, In fact its not beyond the belief that if one of them did join the war that others in the chasing pack didnt start targeting them while they were preoccupied.

If you have a nice 20mill lead over the alliance belwo you then its an easy choice to join in, if you dont then the decision is so much harder as your basically deciding to fight a war on two fronts and split your efforts
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:10   #365
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
What I tried to say is that ND does not have the strenght to beat 1up. If Angels wait they only make it harder on themselfs because 1up will be the one coming stronger out of this.
This logic is quite simply flawed.

If ND/DLR didnt have the strength to fight 1up they wouldnt hit 1up quite simply. At the moment both alliances together have more score, more roids, more xp and more members than 1up. Also take into account that 15 planets are 3 fleeting 1up constantly. I would say that ND/DLR could very well win the war.

Angels/Subh by staying out of the war will only have to deal with a weak 1up or a weak ND at the end. Its in there interest to wait until the time comes that either 1up or ND slip off into oblivion. For now they might as well get roid fat, xp fat, keep the morale high and not get into any dirty wars for a long period of time.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:11   #366
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
What you're importantly missing is that ND obviously have the capability to stunt the 1up growth which allows Angels to grow in relative peace whilst remaining fresh and ready for the event of a war bedraggled 1up or ND.

This is exactly what ND did last round whilst claiming to be playing "sensible politics". I find the irony comical.
Offcourse 1up will have lower growth for a while. In return they become lousy targets and can feed off Angels after being finished with ND (because I doubt ND has the stamina to keep up with 1up). Like eX had last round, our growth stagnated for 3/4 weeks with mass incoming. After that we were in such a good position to hit Angels and (later on) ND which benefited us greatly.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:12   #367
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tis
Because they can get much much better/easier roids/score elsewhere.
Wich 1up will then proceed to take when they win the round against ND who fight alone? See, what would benefit the other alliances most, is to keep this fight going for as long as possible, I think we can both agree on that. This requires to help ND, seeing as they don't possess the same military strengt as 1up do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakey
but neither can Angels or Subh. They would basically be doing all the work while comprimising their ranking to let NewDawn win. Its hardly an incentive to help out is it
What if they don't have the intention to call it a day and quit the round, lose all hope of a victory at tick 786? As aforementioned, this fight benefits every alliance in top 10 bar ND and 1up. ND won't be able to hold 1up alone, and this means that other alliances have a good reason to help out - if not with fullscale hits, at least throw enough fleets at them to keep the fight even for long enough for others to catch up.

Oh, and I do see the irony that we're being prodded to do what ND avoided last round. But the fight won't last long enough if we don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimmick
F-Crew are doing exactly what Angels and Subh should do and showing how to play the game. They are roiding there way to the top, avoiding a fight that isnt there and they are reaping the awards. Props to F-Crew for playing a good round so far.
This particular reply shocked me a little. The game is meant to be about roidracing? Avoiding fights? I found the first weeks of this round extremely dull, for those exact reasons.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:13   #368
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimmick
This logic is quite simply flawed.

If ND/DLR didnt have the strength to fight 1up they wouldnt hit 1up quite simply. At the moment both alliances together have more score, more roids, more xp and more members than 1up. Also take into account that 15 planets are 3 fleeting 1up constantly. I would say that ND/DLR could very well win the war.

Angels/Subh by staying out of the war will only have to deal with a weak 1up or a weak ND at the end. Its in there interest to wait until the time comes that either 1up or ND slip off into oblivion. For now they might as well get roid fat, xp fat, keep the morale high and not get into any dirty wars for a long period of time.
Think what you want, I am only saying ND don't have the strength to keep track with 1up. Whether they chose to hit them is a whole different discussion, because there isn't really any other option for them imo.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:15   #369
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
Think what you want, I am only saying ND don't have the strength to keep track with 1up. Whether they chose to hit them is a whole different discussion, because there isn't really any other option for them imo.
Its not just ND though, its DLR attacking 1up too. I would argue that figures on the whole show its quite an even war at the moment.

Why should Angels/Subh help out ND/DLR when ND/DLR were unwilling to help them out in past rounds and of course this round. Its the same mistake ND made last round "fighting there own wars" and then getting all bewildered when no one helps them out.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:18   #370
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
I still haven't really seen you give a reason for Subh and Angels to join in. They are currently growing nicely without any nasty waves from us and they have none of the hassle of hitting shite ratio targets that already have wave upon wave on them during the 1up/ND roid swapping excersise.
I thought sid said that no matter what happens 1up would continue to attack ND until ND stop attacking you, therefore angels/subh should be pretty safe from "nasty waves" of inc until ND decide to stop.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:19   #371
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Its not like Angels and Subh have a nice healthy lead over those following them which they can fall back on like alliances in the past have had. The positions 3 to 9 are extreamly tight so sacrificing gains to help ND is quickly going to see the fall into 9th, if not futher as LCH and BIG are both within 20 mill of third and if someone gets involved and starts falling off the back of the chasing pack they could end up in the clutches of these two, In fact its not beyond the belief that if one of them did join the war that others in the chasing pack didnt start targeting them while they were preoccupied.

If you have a nice 20mill lead over the alliance belwo you then its an easy choice to join in, if you dont then the decision is so much harder as your basically deciding to fight a war on two fronts and split your efforts
Wakey, some alliances choose to go for the win, and look upwards at the rankings. I respect those that does not, but I see no point in hitting alliance who are lower on the "food chain". The gamble wich ND is taking (and it is a gamble), only got a few possible outcomes, mainly winning, or being bashed down the ranks. That's a choice an alliance going for the win needs to do. And by doing this, they quite clearly gave away their goal this round - to win it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimmick
If ND/DLR didnt have the strength to fight 1up they wouldnt hit 1up quite simply. At the moment both alliances together have more score, more roids, more xp and more members than 1up. Also take into account that 15 planets are 3 fleeting 1up constantly. I would say that ND/DLR could very well win the war.

Angels/Subh by staying out of the war will only have to deal with a weak 1up or a weak ND at the end. Its in there interest to wait until the time comes that either 1up or ND slip off into oblivion. For now they might as well get roid fat, xp fat, keep the morale high and not get into any dirty wars for a long period of time.
It is really funny that 6 of those 15 planets were two-fleeting against an angels top planet as late as yesterday.
And last I checked, both ND and 1up have roids, and since they were allowed to keep them for so long, also enough value to provide decent xp. And I'm telling you, few things are as moralizing as landing on a planet with twice your value and maxcapping him.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:19   #372
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
Wich 1up will then proceed to take when they win the round against ND who fight alone? See, what would benefit the other alliances most, is to keep this fight going for as long as possible, I think we can both agree on that. This requires to help ND, seeing as they don't possess the same military strengt as 1up do.
In all truth thats a bit disrespectful towards Angels. I hardly think it's quite that simple

There are two ways to look at it

1) Your scenario which means we could change targetting anytime once they start hitting us, including now because those Angels planets are a damn sight better targets than ND are atm.

2) They use the roidlead they have to increase thier value. When a roid depleted Nd or 1up come through the other side of this war of atttrition they will be lacking on the resources produced by such significant roid loss.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:21   #373
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimmick
Why should Angels/Subh help out ND/DLR when ND/DLR were unwilling to help them out in past rounds and of course this round. Its the same mistake ND made last round "fighting there own wars" and then getting all bewildered when no one helps them out.
Because a weak 1up will benefit them too.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:21   #374
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipZ^
I thought sid said that no matter what happens 1up would continue to attack ND until ND stop attacking you, therefore angels/subh should be pretty safe from "nasty waves" of inc until ND decide to stop.
Only half right. He said we would attack Nd as long as they attacked us up until a point. I'm far too lazy to go back to page 6 of this discussion and quote it so you can head back there yourself and other others who keep ranting about the same line that makes close to bugger all difference. 1up strategies aren't decided on these boards, they are decided if and when required. If we need to change our minds then change our minds we will
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:22   #375
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

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Originally Posted by qebab
It is really funny that 6 of those 15 planets were two-fleeting against an angels top planet as late as yesterday.
Even more proof as to why Angels should not help ND/DLR. ND/DLR should be concentrating on there battle with 1up rather than once again stab themselves in the foot.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:23   #376
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
2) They use the roidlead they have to increase thier value. When a roid depleted Nd or 1up come through the other side of this war of atttrition they will be lacking on the resources produced by such significant roid loss.
Wich is exactly why it benefits Angels to keep this conflict going.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:24   #377
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

thing is which some people are indeed saying... as ND is usually some chicken who will never try and help anyone but themselves, most alliances won't want to help them in the long term either, I think ND calls that smart politics every round. Obviously they got the help of DLR, but that makes it 70ish planets vs 55ish, which makes the war quite even atm and is ruining growth for both alliances as sandmans is showing. Which in turn means ALL the other alliances can play catch up for a while. Which in turn means it benefits all of them.

Subh got left out hanging to dry by ND this round when subh tried to take down ND, angels got left out hanging to dry last round when they tried to hit exi. I somehow doubt either of these alliances is very willing to help ND in their attempt now.

we'll see tho
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:25   #378
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
Because a weak 1up will benefit them too.
indeed Angels have more chances of getting #1 when they have to fight ND then when fighting 1up
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipZ^
I thought sid said that no matter what happens 1up would continue to attack ND until ND stop attacking you, therefore angels/subh should be pretty safe from "nasty waves" of inc until ND decide to stop.
That doesn't stop VgN from hitting Angels though
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:25   #379
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
Wich is exactly why it benefits Angels to keep this conflict going.
No. It's why it benefits Angels the longer it goes on without them getting incoming because of it. If Angels join in and 1up change targetting then where is the benefit in that?

Yes Angels benefit hugely from this conflict. No Angels do not benefit from being directly involved in it. You aren't making a distinction between the two.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:27   #380
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Who said anything about helping ND?

I certainly didn't. You can open a round up to victory or you don't. I believe it's the best way it can be done for them, as letting 1up take them on one by one, isn't going to work.

As for getting hung up on blinking. I believe the best way to beat them is to grind them down and make them feel miserable logging on to planetarion. It worked for Exilition twice, so I don't see why it shouldn't work again. I think containment is entirely insufficient.

The difference between this round and last round, was that last round, 1up had exilition to contend with, and exilition had 1up. ND on the other hand is not in that category. So it requires a concerted effort to stop domination. You're confusing bi-polar rounds (r15) to mono-polar rounds (r16). In a bi-polar round, it makes sense to let two big alliances that will be able to go at it together for a very long time to fight each other and sit out the battle. With 1up and ND, it's an entirely different kettle of fish because one on one, the battle is over in a relatively shorter period of time. In different political environments, different decisions make perfect sense. An example (purely illustrative): ND blocked with 1up in round 12 - it made perfect sense. ND blocked with 1up in round 13 - it made no sense.

The key to it all is discipline. The key from your point of view is to discourage this, as the time eventually comes when Subh/Angels get sufficient gains for free that the floodgates open and 1up lose (if they continue to be persistent) because not only are they making gains, they aren't getting tired (as you won't hit them). Although there were different game mechanics without XP, what we saw happen in round 6 with roids changing hands is that Fury dominated early on by focusing their troops on beating up Xan, but eventually the tide turned (because other alliances were making gains and attacking in a sufficiently organised way), and this saw Fury overwhelmed and resulted in one of the more disputed rounds as to who won - it is this similar open-ness on offer which I believe should be a very attractive proposition.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:31   #381
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimmick
Even more proof as to why Angels should not help ND/DLR. ND/DLR should be concentrating on there battle with 1up rather than once again stab themselves in the foot.
My point was obviously, that if DLR are threefleeting constantly against 1up, they're not doing a very good job at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
No. It's why it benefits Angels the longer it goes on without them getting incoming because of it. If Angels join in and 1up change targetting then where is the benefit in that?

Yes Angels benefit hugely from this conflict. No Angels do not benefit from being directly involved in it. You aren't making a distinction between the two.
I don't think 1up can afford to take away focus from ND as long as they're this close in score, roids and value. It's my personal opinion, but 1up taking away targetting from ND would greatly moralize ND members to keep going. Would it not? I think it's safe to say that the main conflict now, is directly between 1up and ND, with a few spectators joining in every now and then.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:31   #382
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
No. It's why it benefits Angels the longer it goes on without them getting incoming because of it. If Angels join in and 1up change targetting then where is the benefit in that?

Yes Angels benefit hugely from this conflict. No Angels do not benefit from being directly involved in it. You aren't making a distinction between the two.
Still 1up isn't alone vs. Angels/ND either. While (they got?) VgN targetting Angels Angels aren't that comfortable.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:31   #383
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Who said anything about helping ND?

I certainly didn't. You can open a round up to victory or you don't. I believe it's the best way it can be done for them, as letting 1up take them on one by one, isn't going to work.

As for getting hung up on blinking. I believe the best way to beat them is to grind them down and make them feel miserable logging on to planetarion. It worked for Exilition twice, so I don't see why it shouldn't work again.

The difference between this round and last round, was that last round, 1up had exilition to contend with, and exilition had 1up. ND on the other hand is not in that category. So it requires a concerted effort to stop domination. You're confusing bi-polar rounds (r15) to mono-polar rounds (r16). In a bi-polar round, it makes sense to let two big alliances that will be able to go at it together for a very long time to fight each other and sit out the battle. With 1up and ND, it's an entirely different kettle of fish because one on one, the battle is over in a relatively shorter period of time. In different political environments, different decisions make perfect sense. An example (purely illustrative): ND blocked with 1up in round 12 - it made perfect sense. ND blocked with 1up in round 13 - it made no sense.
I think you're getting high on something with respect what you expect Subh/Angels to be gaining for "free" if they hit 1up. It's obvious that 1up has plenty of DLR and ND waves on us and our ratio is already looking a bit dire. Will a third or fourth wave on a 1up planet gain them that much? No. Will a first wave on a bog standard gal attack close the gap faster? Yes. How you can't see this I have no idea. It's obvious that whatever 1up and Nd are going through isn't going to be over in a couple of days so why not make best use of the free time by increasing roid count and value in preperation for whats to come?
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:33   #384
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
Still 1up isn't alone vs. Angels/ND either. While (they got?) VgN targetting Angels Angels aren't that comfortable.
Either come up with some proof or stop pasting rubbish on whats been an intelligent and open discussion.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:35   #385
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

I dont think there are any alliances with the discipline to grind 1up into the round the way eXil et al did last round. You have to remember 1up could potentially go all round, can ND do this? No. Angels do this? Well Angels are more roid/value driven. Subh? They have a lot of ex eXilition so maybe, but are they really willing to sacrifice another month of not getting any sleep and making it tedious to login? I would argue no, we all no eXiltion players dont have the stamina to play two rounds back to back hardcore why would they play hardcore for another ally to win. They wouldnt.

Next I believe that the way for an alliance like Angels/ND/Subh to win is timing. Wait to attack, dont do it for the sake of it. It takes judgment from all, but maybe Angels and Subh should exchange roids etc. At the moment my advice to them would be get as fat as possible and value fat as possible then when the moment is right strike either 1up or ND and take the round.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:37   #386
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
I don't think 1up can afford to take away focus from ND as long as they're this close in score, roids and value.
Would Angels be prepared to take a potential round ending risk on that statement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab1
It's my personal opinion, but 1up taking away targetting from ND would greatly moralize ND members to keep going. Would it not
I don't see where the morale boost would come from. Just because we didn't concentrate on them for a couple of days while we hit much fatter and better targets while they were forced to carry on hitting shitty ratio planets with fleets that make taking roids from them expensive or hard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab1
I think it's safe to say that the main conflict now, is directly between 1up and ND, with a few spectators joining in every now and then.
Well, duh!
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:37   #387
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
Either come up with some proof or stop pasting rubbish on whats been an intelligent and open discussion.
I am not pasting rubbish? I am stating VgN has been hitting Angels and I suspect 1up got them to do that. How many times have eX had this all over them from 1up posters last round. Including you! It was not my intention to flame or irritate people by this post. If so I am sorry.

Also Subh has 2 or 3 ex-eX people as far as I know. and for the stamina form eX people I am playing 'hardcore' for the second round in a row now myself and I think if you saw current rankings you'd be surprised how good the eXilition people are doing. Whether they are in 1up/Angels/Subh/ND/etc.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:40   #388
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimmick
Next I believe that the way for an alliance like Angels/ND/Subh to win is timing. Wait to attack, dont do it for the sake of it. It takes judgment from all, but maybe Angels and Subh should exchange roids etc. At the moment my advice to them would be get as fat as possible and value fat as possible then when the moment is right strike either 1up or ND and take the round.
While I agree with parts of your post, I don't really agree with this one. If Subh and Angels get fat and increase their value, the thing to happen when ND is dead, is that 1up will go all out on either of them, then the other. What will proceed to happen, is that 1up will gain massive xp, regain lost roids, while it will be demoralizing for Subh and Angels members to hit planets that will by then be nearly depleted in roids. This is the exact thing that happened last round, and it is the exact same reason why eXilition had gained so insane amounts of score towards the end. Letting the conflict run between ND and 1up (is that better, mazz? ( is the best thing for both allies right now.

It's either that, or handing 1up the victory by doing nothing at all.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:40   #389
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

if we controlled vgn fully why wouldn't they take out dlr or ND?:s as atm they are our enemies.... angels are not at this moment
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:41   #390
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
I think you're getting high on something with respect what you expect Subh/Angels to be gaining for "free" if they hit 1up. It's obvious that 1up has plenty of DLR and ND waves on us and our ratio is already looking a bit dire. Will a third or fourth wave on a 1up planet gain them that much? No. Will a first wave on a bog standard gal attack close the gap faster? Yes. How you can't see this I have no idea. It's obvious that whatever 1up and Nd are going through isn't going to be over in a couple of days so why not make best use of the free time by increasing roid count and value in preperation for whats to come?
By sharing out the targets in a fair way as if they don't, then no one will cooperate - like you said, you have to offer your colleagues gains. Free roids and a chance of #1 I think should be pretty easy to sell, don't you?
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:42   #391
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
if we controlled vgn fully why wouldn't they take out dlr or ND?:s as atm they are our enemies.... angels are not at this moment
Who said anything about 'controlling' VgN I am only saying they target Angels. As for ND there is always F-Crew.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:42   #392
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

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Originally Posted by Stoom
I am not pasting rubbish? I am stating VgN has been hitting Angels and I suspect 1up got them to do that. How many times have eX had this all over them from 1up posters last round. Including you! It was not my intention to flame or irritate people by this post. If so I am sorry.
You stated as fact, not an opinion. It's the second time I've heard the notion today and still a load of bollocks. I'm sure furball would love VGN to be playing as 1ups bitches.

I have no idea and no interest in who VGN are hitting unless I happen to see thier fleets appearing on our screens in large numbers.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:43   #393
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
Would Angels be prepared to take a potential round ending risk on that statement?
I wouldn't know. Personally, I would, but my position in Angels is not so that I can decide that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
I don't see where the morale boost would come from. Just because we didn't concentrate on them for a couple of days while we hit much fatter and better targets while they were forced to carry on hitting shitty ratio planets with fleets that make taking roids from them expensive or hard?
You don't see how not getting incomings increases morale?

The much fatter and better targets you would be hitting, would mean the "shitty ratio planets" wich ND would be hitting gain more roids, and ND would be able to take those. Duh.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:44   #394
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
if we controlled vgn fully why wouldn't they take out dlr or ND?:s as atm they are our enemies.... angels are not at this moment
by using them to draw out ND's support and thus their attacks losing intensity and focus (in theory).

I have no idea what VGN are doing with Angels.

Considering who's at #1, I think everyone has bigger worries than VGN.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:45   #395
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
While I agree with parts of your post, I don't really agree with this one. If Subh and Angels get fat and increase their value, the thing to happen when ND is dead, is that 1up will go all out on either of them, then the other. What will proceed to happen, is that 1up will gain massive xp, regain lost roids, while it will be demoralizing for Subh and Angels members to hit planets that will by then be nearly depleted in roids. This is the exact thing that happened last round, and it is the exact same reason why eXilition had gained so insane amounts of score towards the end. Letting the conflict run between ND and 1up (is that better, mazz? ( is the best thing for both allies right now.

It's either that, or handing 1up the victory by doing nothing at all.
I disagree. NewDawn and no disrespect to them I hold them in high regard are military wise incapable of attacking. It has taken a split in the alliance which has lead to there sister alliance DLR being created with the sole goal of attacking.

Now if the roles were reversed as you suggested and Angels was the ND of last round, and 1up was the eXilition of last round. I think Angels and Im sure many of you will agree with me would be able to do a better job of holding onto there lead than NewDawn.

You as an Angels member and BC should be confident enough in your skills to be able to realise that. I think its disrespect to your own alliance to dismiss the skill of Angels. Angels is an alliance packed with skill, as good if not better some may say as 1up.

Now the question Angels must ask themselves is are they good enough? If they arent then yes you are right, join the block and take 2nd or 3rd again. If you are good enough why get involved in a war that isnt yours no matter how much ND/DLR try to say it is. Instead if you are good enough get roid fat then when the time comes prove yourselves to the pa community.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:45   #396
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
By sharing out the targets in a fair way as if they don't, then no one will cooperate - like you said, you have to offer your colleagues gains. Free roids and a chance of #1 I think should be pretty easy to sell, don't you?
Again, you're trying to compare a handful of targets with, even at this stage, pretty wank ratio's against a gal attack where targets are that much fatter and probably slightly less organised that 1up and it's members.

The other side of the coin is that they still have a chance at number 1 if they just keep thier noses out of it and carry on roiding away and increasing that value. They could genuinely succeed where ND failed last round.

Sorry mate - but I wouldn't be buying. Sounds like a white elephant to me
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:49   #397
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
I wouldn't know. Personally, I would, but my position in Angels is not so that I can decide that.



You don't see how not getting incomings increases morale?

The much fatter and better targets you would be hitting, would mean the "shitty ratio planets" wich ND would be hitting gain more roids, and ND would be able to take those. Duh.
And there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, right? If this is how it really works then I must have missed the big comeback from 1up last round when eXil and friends stopped targetting us or the revitalised LCH and Mistu in the couple of rounds they went toe to toe with 1up. You can keep saying it but we all know it just isn't how it works.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:51   #398
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
Again, you're trying to compare a handful of targets with, even at this stage, pretty wank ratio's against a gal attack where targets are that much fatter and probably slightly less organised that 1up and it's members.

The other side of the coin is that they still have a chance at number 1 if they just keep thier noses out of it and carry on roiding away and increasing that value. They could genuinely succeed where ND failed last round.

Sorry mate - but I wouldn't be buying. Sounds like a white elephant to me
Of course you wouldn't - why would a 1up member buy into his own destruction?

1up are far more clinical at disposing of alliances end of round than exilition - even so, I think ND have proved that trying to chance your military on the last few days to decide a round when a better one has a sniff, doesn't really work unless you're confident you can keep them fully motivated until then. What you've just offered is "chancing it against 1up" rather than "chancing it against ND or Angels or Subh" and I'm pretty sure that option #2 is far more attractive to other alliances.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:52   #399
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimmick
I disagree. NewDawn and no disrespect to them I hold them in high regard are military wise incapable of attacking. It has taken a split in the alliance which has lead to there sister alliance DLR being created with the sole goal of attacking.

Now if the roles were reversed as you suggested and Angels was the ND of last round, and 1up was the eXilition of last round. I think Angels and Im sure many of you will agree with me would be able to do a better job of holding onto there lead than NewDawn.

You as an Angels member and BC should be confident enough in your skills to be able to realise that. I think its disrespect to your own alliance to dismiss the skill of Angels. Angels is an alliance packed with skill, as good if not better some may say as 1up.

Now the question Angels must ask themselves is are they good enough? If they arent then yes you are right, join the block and take 2nd or 3rd again. If you are good enough why get involved in a war that isnt yours no matter how much ND/DLR try to say it is. Instead if you are good enough get roid fat then when the time comes prove yourselves to the pa community.
ND as attackers are far more lethal as defenders, in my opinion, and the events last round suggests that I'm right.
And if they were indeed incapable of attacking, surely that means that the way will be over rather quickly, and that only means 1up will come stronger out of the conflict, and ND will possible attack alliances lower in the rankings to try to salvage what's left.

And it is my firm belief that Angels of last round would have held on to the lead for longer than ND did, but you must not confuse Angels of last round with Angels of this round. The difference is... rather big. Let's just say that quite many core members didn't care enough to play, and many of those who do play consider it a "fun" round, so to say. Angels has been getting their share of incoming all round, and are not nearly in shape to wage a war against 1up solo at the moment, and especially not a 1up that hast just been given a morale boost by winning against ND.

I'm confident in our skill, and I know we have a lot of skilled players. But it would be an exaggeration to call activity or discipline good at the moment. And the way I see it - the best way to go for #1 right now, is to make sure the current #1 can't hold on to it.
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Unread 1 Mar 2006, 15:56   #400
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
And there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, right? If this is how it really works then I must have missed the big comeback from 1up last round when eXil and friends stopped targetting us or the revitalised LCH and Mistu in the couple of rounds they went toe to toe with 1up. You can keep saying it but we all know it just isn't how it works.
I didn't play rounds 11, 13 and 14. so I know nothing of the revitalised LCH and Mistu. But as for last round, eXil had been grinding you into the ground for ages before you were relieved of the pressure. And at such an early stage in the round as it was, you never really managed to build up your fleets. And saying that you even cared much at that point, wouldn't be quite right, would it? I expect it to take some time for you to grind ND that far down. Let's just say it isn't happening today.

Edit: I've never been to the end of the rainbow. ):
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