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Unread 15 Dec 2014, 22:49   #1
isildurx
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Isils round 60 stats

Hello.

My soon-to-be-revised r56 stats are now up on the beta server.
http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=174992789266

Feel free to come with feedback. I will certainly be looking at cath co as I recall them being very strong in r56. I am also looking at improving the crbs fleets.
Any other feedback is appreciated, I hope we can get a contructive discussion going.
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 01:18   #2
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I believe BS/CR x FR/DE was well balanced. Imo the best approach to reduce CO powa would be to increase CO ships E/R, Bettle efficiencies towards FI seems to be on an average level of 165% which is similar to other rounds and don't need to change. I suggest Beetle's efficiencies towards other CO were reduced to an average of 95%~100%.
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 07:46   #3
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I think these stats dont need to be adjusted.
CO shouldnt be nerphed, all the CO allies that round got shafted
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 08:41   #4
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I like fortran's suggestion. I would also suggest switching the targets on the Wraith. It fires after Phantom anyway, so it's not useful as anti-Fi ship, and with T1 Co it would work very well in a Fr + Broadsword fleet, which would encourage more people away from Fi/Co.

I don't like the Spider. It fires after both Fr-based anti-Fi ships, and its eff isn't sufficiently awesome to warrant investing in it. Might as well make Scarabs instead. I'm not really sure how to fix that without overpowering Cat, though.

Beyond that, I'm not really seeing a lot that needs improving. It's almost like I was involved in making these!
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 09:39   #5
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Well spiders do have some inherent advantages;

-lower eta
-can be used as flack if you get cat co inc

But yes, they're not the best ship around

I agree on the wraith, targets switched.
Any suggestion on how much to increase other COs E/R?
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 09:41   #6
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I can't help but feel like Zik Cr needs some help - it's the only fleet that is fully ST. Perhaps merging two of the ships, even if that means increasing initiative on one, would make it more attractive.
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 09:54   #7
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

The emp eff is right where it should be.
as a emp player id not play with lower than 170% eff
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 10:25   #8
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I should lower it to get you to try something new then

Anyhow, it's not the emp eff vs fi that would be lowered
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 10:38   #9
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I should lower it to get you to try something new then

Anyhow, it's not the emp eff vs fi that would be lowered
Well iirc, the whole issue as i remebered was that the CO alliances were fighting CR alliances, and CO looked to rape FR alliances.
Id try start in the other end, make CR/BS more effective vs CO and key FR as it is
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 11:09   #10
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

My take on the Cath and CO that round.

Spores strategy was decide pretty early, long before the round start.
It was gonna be FR + Cath CO.

Now usualy with cath its usualy two ways to play it in my view with stats like that.
Either is rank whore CO, who will easily gain roids, and will have good enough defence to keep em for a long time untill their value because very high. This works very well with the fast research they got, and their value is usualy build up fast with Income from roids and cores.
Other option is support cath, wich will have the much needed beetle to fetch of other cath CO incs, and xan FI inc. Obviously that will reduce the size of the targets you are able to solo roid, or the amount of targets you can take each night.

In modern PA, single battleticks, the EMP is far stronger than it was earlier, and in most "balanced stats" you will need either CATH or ETD to make a reliant ship strategy looking at the defensive perspective of it.
If you start nerphing cath untill its not realy worth while going for it, or start stripping it for EMP ships(more normal target ships) the stats either goes into ultra defensive or ultra offensive in my view.
Do what you like with the stats, but the race ratio of the top planets is usualy down to alliance strategies, and the fact that cath is zero loss due to the EMP usualy gives EMP planets a bigger chance of ending on the top in stats like these.
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 12:23   #11
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Any suggestion on how much to increase other COs E/R?
100-105% against Beetles seems reasonable, a little worse against Zik Co.
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 14:14   #12
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
100-105% against Beetles seems reasonable, a little worse against Zik Co.
Reasonable? The other two COs is cloacked. 140% would be reasonable. Zik 120% atleast
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 14:55   #13
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

What worries me slightly about reducing the Beetle's eff is the fact that it's cath's only anti fico. If they had another ship that was anti fico it'd be easier to justify the reduced efficiency of the beetle.
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 15:13   #14
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
What worries me slightly about reducing the Beetle's eff is the fact that it's cath's only anti fico. If they had another ship that was anti fico it'd be easier to justify the reduced efficiency of the beetle.
No. EMP is suppose to be well above 100% eff
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 15:14   #15
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Would it be terrible to add a De -> Co or De -> Co/Fi ship? That would essentially give Cat a third roiding fleet, make the Spider useful, and make the Beetle less the be-all end-all of anti-Fi/Co. But at the cost of allowing Cat to stop all roiding fleets except Xan Fr, Etd Fr, Cat Co and Cat Cr with just 3 ships, all De...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
No. EMP is suppose to be well above 100% eff
Generally speaking, for T1, yes. But this is T2, and we're not speaking generally. For what reason do you feel that the Beetle needs 140% Eff against other Co?
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 15:21   #16
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Would it be terrible to add a De -> Co or De -> Co/Fi ship? That would essentially give Cat a third roiding fleet, make the Spider useful, and make the Beetle less the be-all end-all of anti-Fi/Co. But at the cost of allowing Cat to stop all roiding fleets except Xan Fr, Etd Fr, Cat Co and Cat Cr with just 3 ships, all De...


Generally speaking, for T1, yes. But this is T2, and we're not speaking generally. For what reason do you feel that the Beetle needs 140% Eff against other Co?
Because it cant kill. Its reliant at being valuewise better than all other races
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 16:00   #17
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Comparing r54 and r56:

R54 E/R Cost Cost / ER Cost / Gun
Phoenix: 80 390 4.875 -
Cutlass: 73 340 4.658 -
Beetle 81 325 4.012 46.43
Average Cost/ER: 4.515

R56 E/R Cost Cost / ER Cost / Gun
Wraith: 63 210 3.333 -
Lancer: 73 270 3.699 -
Cutlass: 79 355 4.494 -
Beetle 76 299 3.934 37.37
Average Cost/ER: 3.865

The difference between R54 and R56 average Cost/ER is -14.4% while the difference in Beetle's Cost/Gun is -19.5% making Beetle at least 5% more efficient in R56.

I don't remember if Pegasus as an anti-CO was that important in R54 which could be a handcap not present in R56 to CO fleets making them look like overpower.
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 16:15   #18
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

R54 was broken, but fairly entertaining stats
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 20:42   #19
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Because it cant kill. Its reliant at being valuewise better than all other races
I asked you for a reason why the Beetle specifically should be able to EMP other Co at 140% at T2. A generic "Beetle should be good" is not what I was looking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fortran View Post
Comparing r54 and r56
Cost / ER is the wrong number to look at. Keep in mind, 99 E/R is twice as much as 98 E/R: 100 guns block exactly 1 ship with 99 E/R, but they block 2 ships with 98 E/R.

Look at the full picture:

T1 Eff = [Beetle guns] * (1 - [Target ERes]) * [Target cost] / [Beetle cost]
T2 Eff = 0.6 * [Beetle guns] * (1 - [Target ERes]) * [Target cost] / [Beetle cost]

Here's the Beetle in rounds in which it fired at Fi/Co, skipping rounds in which it did so 0 loss:
R56 Phoenix: 91%
R56 Beetle: 115%
R56 Wraith: 125%
R56 Cutlass: 120%
R56 Lancer: 117%
R54 Phoenix: 101%
R54 Beetle: 80%
R54 Cutlass: 119%
R52 Beetle: 109%
R52 Thief: 96%
R51 Beetle: 137%
R51 Cutlass: 125%
R51 Defender: 132%
R50 Beetle: 109%
R50 Inforza: 96%

Average: 111%
Average in R56: 114%

It would be a good idea to reduce Beetle T2 effs to about 105% in a set of stats in which Co was powerful the last time we used them. We certainly should not increase their Effs to 130%.
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 21:14   #20
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

CO wasnt overly powerfull.
The alliance that went full CO got shafted.
Spore and Vikings were CO/FR and CR/BS based mostly.
Nerph the viper, make beetle more powerfull, against itself for sure. You cant start reworking stats in the wrong end.
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 21:24   #21
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Would it be terrible to add a De -> Co or De -> Co/Fi ship? That would essentially give Cat a third roiding fleet, make the Spider useful, and make the Beetle less the be-all end-all of anti-Fi/Co. But at the cost of allowing Cat to stop all roiding fleets except Xan Fr, Etd Fr, Cat Co and Cat Cr with just 3 ships, all De...
It wouldn't be terrible. I've considered it but not "pulled the trigger". It would probably be an anti fi/co init 3. Then I would move the init of the ranger to 1 and the init of the defender to 2.
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 21:58   #22
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

The lack of DE in the universe was what made the beetle so overpowered in that round.

We saw some fleets with 2 million+ beetles and 100k viper.

Making DE a little more viable may push these in the direction you are looking to go.

Just my 2 cents
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 22:11   #23
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

3 pods for either ETD or CATH might solve this.
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 22:30   #24
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I distinctly recall many of the bigger caths having almost purely beetle fleets, yet not getting roided, I presume the alliance dynamics were the cause for this.
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Unread 16 Dec 2014, 22:37   #25
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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I distinctly recall many of the bigger caths having almost purely beetle fleets, yet not getting roided, I presume the alliance dynamics were the cause for this.
Well with diffrent stats it would be diffrent "alliance dynamics"
All CO def was FI/CO
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 01:21   #26
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

My 2 cents...

Yes to 105%

Yes also to Cat De

No to 3 pods, we have ship stealing to make a 3rd pod class.

These stats will play different even if you left them the same. There is a completely different political outlay now to 4 rounds ago. The fact that butcher is going on about two alliances that no longer exsist shows that.

Mz stats which were played in 50 and 52 (I think) played out very different with minor changes....
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 07:37   #27
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

They played out exactly the same.
ND comming out of no where suddently winning. Both r50/52 were piss poor, and stats that wasnt very popular iirc.

I wouldnt mind that isil teared up the stats to make em more suitable for defensive play. That could aswell be giving a 3rd roidclass too one or two raced
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 08:10   #28
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
They played out exactly the same.
ND comming out of no where suddently winning. Both r50/52 were piss poor, and stats that wasnt very popular iirc.

I wouldnt mind that isil teared up the stats to make em more suitable for defensive play. That could aswell be giving a 3rd roidclass too one or two raced
Not everything revolves around what alliance finishes first....

The stats and strategies were very different over both rounds. Hardly anyone played Terran in rd 50. In rd 52 it was much more heavily played. Completely changing the dynamics if the round in a ship build sense.

Mzs Stats were actually probably the most popular set(s) of the past 10 rounds. Shows how warped your perspective is.

Everyone had the decency to give sensible comments on your stats now stop being bitter and give sensible comments on isil's and stop trying to derail this thread you sad little man
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 08:31   #29
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

These stats are suitable for defensive play, just that the best defensive ships are outside of roidclasses
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 08:39   #30
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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These stats are suitable for defensive play, just that the best defensive ships are outside of roidclasses
Well you said that nobody built vipers basicly, and making beetle weaker isnt the fix.
Cath was included in the "top allie" strat for spore cus they were dependant on the emp
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 09:08   #31
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Not everything revolves around what alliance finishes first....

The stats and strategies were very different over both rounds. Hardly anyone played Terran in rd 50. In rd 52 it was much more heavily played. Completely changing the dynamics if the round in a ship build sense.

Mzs Stats were actually probably the most popular set(s) of the past 10 rounds. Shows how warped your perspective is.

Everyone had the decency to give sensible comments on your stats now stop being bitter and give sensible comments on isil's and stop trying to derail this thread you sad little man
Why on earth would i be bitter? For what reason? One of the stats will be picked, atm i think mine is better.
Making DE more reasonable is easy fixed with adding another DE race. Cath would be good
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 09:54   #32
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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It wouldn't be terrible. I've considered it but not "pulled the trigger". It would probably be an anti fi/co init 3. Then I would move the init of the ranger to 1 and the init of the defender to 2.
Why Fi/Co instead of Co/Fi? I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I'd like to hear your reasoning.

The init changes sound reasonable with that targetting. With Co/Fi targetting I'd probably want the De and Defender to fire at the same time.
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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
It wouldn't be terrible. I've considered it but not "pulled the trigger". It would probably be an anti fi/co init 3. Then I would move the init of the ranger to 1 and the init of the defender to 2.
Why Fi/Co instead of Co/Fi? I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I'd like to hear your reasoning.

The init changes sound reasonable with that targetting. With Co/Fi targetting I'd probably want the De and Defender to fire at the same time.

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No to 3 pods, we have ship stealing to make a 3rd pod class.
Agreed. Slowing down the start for a race's third pod class is a good idea. See also Zik Co.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 10:13   #33
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Agreed. Slowing down the start for a race's third pod class is a good idea. See also Zik Co.
Im not sure how to make DE stronger without turning the stats upside down. Adding a 3rd DE race is the easy solution
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 10:23   #34
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Why Fi/Co instead of Co/Fi? I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I'd like to hear your reasoning.
No particular reasoning, I'm not overly adament on either choice being the best, but seeing as it's 3 x FI hitting DE and only 2 x CO that does it, it would be more preferable imo. Also, the past two rounds have seen lots of Xan xp whores and I'm worried if the Cat DE hits FI t2 then they will struggle bigtime vs xan fi.
But as I said, I'm not leaning either way in a strong fashion.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 11:26   #35
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Im not sure how to make DE stronger without turning the stats upside down. Adding a 3rd DE race is the easy solution
This has nothing to do with the passage you quoted. I've already said that I like the idea of adding a third race capable of attacking with De. What I and Kaiba oppose is adding a third pod, because it's unnecessary, and the only other race capable of getting a third attack fleet has to steal pods too.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 11:57   #36
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Wait, you don't think cath should get a de pod if I give them a DE anti fi/co?

I didn't think about that tbh, but I guess that's what you're saying, and it's not a bad idea. SHouldn't be too hard for caths to covop some DE pods if they want some.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 12:14   #37
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Changed currently lined up;

Increase the E/R of the Lancer, Wraith and Beetle (slightly)
Give cath a DE class ship anti FI/CO (or CO/FI)
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 12:26   #38
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
This has nothing to do with the passage you quoted. I've already said that I like the idea of adding a third race capable of attacking with De. What I and Kaiba oppose is adding a third pod, because it's unnecessary, and the only other race capable of getting a third attack fleet has to steal pods too.
What i meant was adding a 3rd attacking fleet to either Cath or ETD, class DE.
Pods included ofc.
If the goal is to make CO less powerfull, you need to do something with its strengths last round, wich according to Isil was that nobody was going for DE class ships.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 12:28   #39
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Wait, you don't think cath should get a de pod if I give them a DE anti fi/co?

I didn't think about that tbh, but I guess that's what you're saying, and it's not a bad idea. SHouldn't be too hard for caths to covop some DE pods if they want some.
I dont see the danger of giving them a DE pod/roid fleet.
"asymetrical" is not a big problem in how stats play out.
Increasing the EMP resistance of cath CO is not something you should look into doing, it does not solve the problem with ter/zik DE setup in these stats. imho
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 12:50   #40
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

what ter/zik de setup problem?
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 13:13   #41
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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what ter/zik de setup problem?
You might have not noticed but, ter/zik DE can't teamup, outinitted by every fi/co/fr, including emp.
Instead etd/xan FR can, only stopped by emp, and not all: defender is outinitted by ranger.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 13:19   #42
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I'm not disputing the fact that the DE fleet can only roid two races, what is the problem with the changes I've proposed? Don't they potentially help the DE fleets?
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 13:20   #43
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
what ter/zik de setup problem?
Turn that question upside down.
Why would you go DE ter/zik DE over etd/xan FR.
Any xan FI def fleet, no matter how big, will prolly one way or another force a recall.
So ETD/XAN FR combo wont be having problems with DE incs, they simply would stay far far away from hitting any XAN/ETD heavy alliance.
These stats have too many fundamental flaws for making DE class doable, unless you are gonna make it asymetrical or start all over again.

Its just my opinion, im sure Kaiba will tell you im bitter or clueless when it comes to stats.
Add a cath DE pod/roid fleet, it might be the only good option you got if you are gonna rework r56 stats.
Id actualy advice you to start all over again with a diffrent view on how you orignaly wanted the stats from r56.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 13:22   #44
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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I'm not disputing the fact that the DE fleet can only roid two races, what is the problem with the changes I've proposed? Don't they potentially help the DE fleets?
please put up the changes in the stats so one can get a bigger view of it.
If you think you got the solution, put it up in the stats so we can start pointing out other "major flaws".
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 13:25   #45
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Id actualy advice you to start all over again with a diffrent view on how you orignaly wanted the stats from r56.

I like how you advice me to start over again on my set of stats that are actually GOOD, while you refuse to make any sensible changes your set which isn't close to as good

One reason to go DE over FR is that the DE fleet targets 5 classes, FR only four, means you can build one less ship.

I'm not adverse to giving cath a DE anti FI/CO and also possibly a pod, but I want to have a constructive discussion about it, i.e no comments from you please.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 13:29   #46
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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I'm not disputing the fact that the DE fleet can only roid two races, what is the problem with the changes I've proposed? Don't they potentially help the DE fleets?
Not sure. If you give cath a De anti-fi/co or co/fi and a De pod, it will make more DE fleets flying, hopefully; but, then again, they can solo pretty much, so the ter/zik De teamup problem still maintains.
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 13:32   #47
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

Yes, but this is a problem with EVERY SINGLE SET* of stats, one class has to be weaker at attacking, but ends up being good defensively.
My worry with giving cath a DE fleet is that DE fleets will be too popular in the universe, which would lead to a very defensive round in my opinion.



* feel free to find one in which this isn't the case
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 14:18   #48
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Wait, you don't think cath should get a de pod if I give them a DE anti fi/co?

I didn't think about that tbh, but I guess that's what you're saying, and it's not a bad idea. SHouldn't be too hard for caths to covop some DE pods if they want some.
That's the whole point. I/we have no issues with races having 3 roiding classes but there should be some effort/disadvantage to obtaining it ie. Researching covops up to ship steal and trying to get some.

It's almost like an achievement for effort, which is a good thing
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 14:35   #49
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

I have had a fiddle round with the calc for about 30 mins and I think there isn't anything that stands out as super OP. There is weaker teamups and stronger teamyps but that is pretty natural in PA. I like how paper thin Xan Fi is. If you have the value you can 'survive' as a Xan Fi planet but its not viable like it has been recently for XPwhoring or like it was going to be in the rival set to yours.

Cat de would be a nice way to force Cats away from spamming beetles, although I think the eff still needs a minor nerd, 5% or so like what was suggested
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Unread 17 Dec 2014, 14:46   #50
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Re: Isils round 60 stats

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Yes, but this is a problem with EVERY SINGLE SET* of stats, one class has to be weaker at attacking, but ends up being good defensively.

* feel free to find one in which this isn't the case
Silly argument to make. Unless we think there has been a perfectly balanced statset then of course there is always a class that is going to be weakest.

What is unusual is that a teamup should bring so little advantage. In this instance what do they gain out of it? Zik gains from having Ter that the Marauder and the Dealer does not fire before the team, while the Ter gains that the Harpy does not fire first. This seems pretty pointless when Etd still has two ships (admittedly emp) firing before the team and both Ter and Zik one. It therefore does not really add to the targets that De can attack by teaming up.
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