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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 00:07   #1
wades209
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Structure Killers

Does anyone actually think structure killers are worth having in the game? It just seems that its abit crazy you spend good time on something like structures and then someone massive can just come along and hammer you.. Just seems to favour the biggest planets!
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 02:13   #2
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Re: Structure Killers

they're good fun when you land with them. not so much when landed on with them
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 02:56   #3
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Re: Structure Killers

The main argument in favour of SKs, for me, was always that there should be counterplay to people who mass dists, but as this seems to be a sub-optimal strategy to begin with I don't see many reasons to keep them. The one way they could be a healthy part of the game is if there is a strategic element to them, like sacrificing value (SKs) to destroy part of an opponent's structures, or only being able to send SKs versus alliances you're at war with.

People definitely enjoy using them... The same people that enjoy destroying garden gnomes in gardens irl!
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 13:21   #4
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Re: Structure Killers

Why not have SK's targetting the alliance.

By this i mean if any SK's landed on a planet, his or her alliance would take the hit.

I.E total alliance dists = 1500.

If a planet that has 150 constructions gets hit then the alliance as a whole loses 15 constructions and not just the player. This would mean you could effectively SK an alliance by hitting many different members.

You would have to fiddle the numbers as one ally losing 15 constructions is negligable but if say 20 planets were hit with an avg of 15 cons dieing on each planet that would = 300 cons.

Worth doing!

If you get my drift....
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 13:24   #5
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Re: Structure Killers

I remember a time when Sks were in attack classes.

One thing I would ask is that sks cant be stolen cov op wise.
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 13:36   #6
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Re: Structure Killers

I just don't see the point in SK. I think it hinders beginner players who like to develop there planet but have large alliances landing on them so they have to run and then the constructions are gone! So SK help large planets and hinder smaller! I think they would put off beginner players (myself included).
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 13:38   #7
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Re: Structure Killers

the only way I see SK being even slightly fair is if you could build SK def on you planet outside fleet who fire at SK only, but this would make SK pointless anyway.
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 13:49   #8
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by jermain View Post
Why not have SK's targetting the alliance.

By this i mean if any SK's landed on a planet, his or her alliance would take the hit.

I.E total alliance dists = 1500.

If a planet that has 150 constructions gets hit then the alliance as a whole loses 15 constructions and not just the player. This would mean you could effectively SK an alliance by hitting many different members.

You would have to fiddle the numbers as one ally losing 15 constructions is negligable but if say 20 planets were hit with an avg of 15 cons dieing on each planet that would = 300 cons.

Worth doing!

If you get my drift....
how is that different from how it is pr today?

If 20 planets in same tag were hit with SK's loosing an avg of 15 constructions each, then tag still loose 300 cons in total...

Are you really suggesting that Appoco or whoever codes in a RNG (random number generator) that takes out random structures from random players in the same tag, as the player that just got landed with SK on? Sounds like a nightmare to code. And sounds unfair on so many levels, as there will never be a set order on who will loose constructions, so it may be a few in alliance that takes the hits for all. Over and over.

And poor alliances with noobs, that get farmed with sk's are the ones that will suffer the most.

Summarize: I quit if this were to ever happend

Last edited by TheoDD; 11 Mar 2014 at 13:54.
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 16:50   #9
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Re: Structure Killers

Quote:
Originally Posted by wades209
I just don't see the point in SK. I think it hinders beginner players who like to develop there planet but have large alliances landing on them so they have to run and then the constructions are gone! So SK help large planets and hinder smaller! I think they would put off beginner players (myself included).
How is this any different to being roided to the ground whenever you hit a decent roidcount?
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 16:59   #10
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Re: Structure Killers

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Originally Posted by eksero View Post
How is this any different to being roided to the ground whenever you hit a decent roidcount?
I would say it is easier to recover from a good roiding than being sked to the ground.
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 18:45   #11
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Re: Structure Killers

Stop sk's from targeting fcs and refs, that is the main gripe with them. They should be on class and then you have a good way to damage distwhores.

I like sks btw, they just need the taboo removed
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 18:51   #12
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Re: Structure Killers

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Stop sk's from targeting fcs and refs, that is the main gripe with them. They should be on class and then you have a good way to damage distwhores.

I like sks btw, they just need the taboo removed
which means you can get sk'd several times during a round and not loose 1 building... May aswell remove them entirely then.
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 18:55   #13
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Re: Structure Killers

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
which means you can get sk'd several times during a round and not loose 1 building... May aswell remove them entirely then.
No it just means you would lose factories, dists, amps, res labs and sec centres at a higher frequency.
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 18:57   #14
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Re: Structure Killers

keep them all structures as few people will play dist whore as it is
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 18:58   #15
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Re: Structure Killers

10% cap....

2 light factories, 2 med factories, 2 heavy factories. 1 amp. 2 res labs

Booya... rest finance centres and refs...

And you wont loose a single building... thats atleast the frequency i would of gotten with it... 10% of 9 buildings is rounded down to 0.
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 19:15   #16
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Re: Structure Killers

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
how is that different from how it is pr today?

If 20 planets in same tag were hit with SK's loosing an avg of 15 constructions each, then tag still loose 300 cons in total...

Are you really suggesting that Appoco or whoever codes in a RNG (random number generator) that takes out random structures from random players in the same tag, as the player that just got landed with SK on? Sounds like a nightmare to code. And sounds unfair on so many levels, as there will never be a set order on who will loose constructions, so it may be a few in alliance that takes the hits for all. Over and over.

And poor alliances with noobs, that get farmed with sk's are the ones that will suffer the most.

Summarize: I quit if this were to ever happend
Let's put this into action then \o/

Another idea would be that SK's instead of killing constructions steal them. It would make them much more viable and worth having. If you could steal dists and FC's of people it would bring another dynamic to the attacking and defence of pa......could be interesting.
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 19:20   #17
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Re: Structure Killers

Second best suggestion in here after dropping them entirely imo ^^
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 19:36   #18
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Re: Structure Killers

stealing structures could be fun but what happens when you hit the 250 con limit?
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 19:37   #19
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Re: Structure Killers

A) you are capped, and cant steal more nor build more or
B) increase limit with a new tech level of infrastructure
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 19:49   #20
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Re: Structure Killers

1 downside to this stealing idea is the cheats who will sign up multi accounts and cov op steal and or farm sks to design i.e in normal attack fleets.
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 21:33   #21
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Re: Structure Killers

Stealing structures is unrealistic.
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 21:49   #22
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Re: Structure Killers

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Stealing structures is unrealistic.
Thats an immensely helpful comment. Care to elaborate?

And Paisely you could say that about anything in PA. Cheaters crashing fleets and roiding farms etc? Do we get rid of ships and roids? I don't see that as a viable downside, it would inevitably happen but no more than cheating does at present.
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Unread 11 Mar 2014, 23:37   #23
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Re: Structure Killers

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Originally Posted by jermain View Post
Thats an immensely helpful comment. Care to elaborate?

And Paisely you could say that about anything in PA. Cheaters crashing fleets and roiding farms etc? Do we get rid of ships and roids? I don't see that as a viable downside, it would inevitably happen but no more than cheating does at present.
Whilst having Multihunters is a good thing and its a thankless job.
I've questioned like many other folk have ... how can MHs be so incompetent?
I tend to find that when it comes to kurbing abuse...
Game Mechanics > Multihunters > Left as is.

I've been quite vocal in the about "support planets" back in r15 (assassin was an outstanding head MH back then) to around r30ish but game mechanics have curbed this.
What made "support planets" exploded in popularity was that 1 group of people were using them and created a Keep up with the jones mentality to counteract the edge that it gave... their short-sightedness prevented them from seeing how this was poluting the quality of the playerbase I.E. an increase in unwanted/irc inactive galmates etc.

There are certain ways to cheat without MH being to counteract this like using VNC clients to access gal mates computers at silly o'clock to send defence etc. This requires a certain amount of trust like not watch any dodgy porn on the other computers etc... and it is used by certain gal mates / buddy packs etc.

I've also played when stealers didn't die (pre r19) and when fleetcatches were profitable enterprises but in hindsight it was detrimental to the playerbase as a whole.

What I am seeing being detrimental to game is the current exiling culture to create the psuedo private galaxies and exiling noobs out of the game.
I've suggested a stagger of private to public galaxies like the first xmas round (game mechanics) to counter this.

Moral of the story is I like the idea (and hearing ideas from new people) of stealing structures but it is open to abuse that I don't think MHs can successfully combat. Not to mention the keeping up with the jones mentality it would generate.

In short im too long in the tooth and would prefer to keep the status quo on Sks.
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Unread 12 Mar 2014, 10:40   #24
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Re: Structure Killers

I vote for removing SK all together. there are no good for beginners
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Unread 12 Mar 2014, 10:45   #25
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Re: Structure Killers

there are less beginners than there are veterans. SKs are fun.
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Unread 12 Mar 2014, 10:54   #26
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Re: Structure Killers

but you won't get new players when you make things to difficult. Surely a bigger galaxy is more fun.
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Unread 12 Mar 2014, 10:54   #27
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Re: Structure Killers

Great mentality there.

I was under the impression that most of the planetarion base is wishing for a bigger player base. If this game continues being as noob hostile as it is, then we may aswell just face the fact that this game will never grow back in size.
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Unread 12 Mar 2014, 11:15   #28
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Re: Structure Killers

agreed
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Unread 12 Mar 2014, 14:02   #29
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Re: Structure Killers

there is nothing wrong with SKs they're a fun dont set back a planet any more than losing 4-5 ticks of roids and to me they are also an important part of planetarion. there is no greater satisfaction then blowing up a few constructions.
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Unread 12 Mar 2014, 16:31   #30
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Re: Structure Killers

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
there is nothing wrong with SKs they're a fun dont set back a planet any more than losing 4-5 ticks of roids and to me they are also an important part of planetarion. there is no greater satisfaction then blowing up a few constructions.
It maybe 4-5 ticks of roids but its much longer in time to rebuild!
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Unread 12 Mar 2014, 16:48   #31
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Re: Structure Killers

Not really. The number of constructions you have is proportional to your construction speed, so you always lose the same amount of time, regardless of your government and race.

On 100 constructions, you can lose up to 10 when you're SK'ed. 10 structures, let's say half refs and half FCs. That's 8750 CU. At 121.5 CU/tick (Cat + pop), that's 72 ticks or 3 days.

Losing 4 waves when you're on 1000 roids costs 683 roids. To cap those back, you need to land twice on 1000 roids (2 * 250) and once on 800 (200), for 700 total. Assume you land once every night, that's 3 days.

Same number!
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Unread 12 Mar 2014, 17:37   #32
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Re: Structure Killers

Assuming that is 1 wave of sk's landing.
4 waves with sk's starting at 100 buildings, takes out 34 buildings.
Well assuming you cap back some roids the day after, whats stopping the farmers from comming back? Given you most likely are an easy target, loosing 4 waves of roids.

Can't say i like your post mz, no matter how correctly calculated it is.

I state my point once more: Most players want increased playerbase. (atleast i do.) Thing is... very few new players will adapt to an overall extremly noob hostile game.


"Assume you land once every night, that's 3 days."

Would you come into a game, where you would be continuesly bashed?
Not to mention that most stats require that you are in an alliance, where you need to team up to just be able to land attacks. Seeing how most of the dedicated alliances are filled, leaves the less dedicated alliances to take in and teach new players. Most players have their regular team ups, round after round. (Both inside and across alliances.) Which leaves even less room for the new players to take back what they keep loosing.

is my logic that off? or are we really trying to hold our small community for ourselves, and just say **** you to every new player that might drop by, before they move on to better things?

Personally i would not stay in a new game, that steals your sleep, and constantly gives you a smack in the face, without any hope of doing well.
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Unread 12 Mar 2014, 18:36   #33
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Re: Structure Killers

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Can't say i like your post mz, no matter how correctly calculated it is.
Facts are problematic like that. Your post is completely irrelevant. I set out to show that being SK'ed is indeed about as bad as losing 4 waves of roids. Nothing more.
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Unread 12 Mar 2014, 18:54   #34
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Re: Structure Killers

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Facts are problematic like that. Your post is completely irrelevant. I set out to show that being SK'ed is indeed about as bad as losing 4 waves of roids. Nothing more.
actually my post is relevant to topic, unlike yours that is side tracked into how to value constructions.
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Unread 12 Mar 2014, 18:58   #35
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Re: Structure Killers

I would like to point out that if you were to dist whore as in #scans unscanable and get a wave or 2 sked you lose that tactical advantage.

there is more to it than losing CUs etc
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Unread 12 Mar 2014, 19:39   #36
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Re: Structure Killers

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
actually my post is relevant to topic, unlike yours that is side tracked into how to value constructions.
My post was off-topic. Your post was a reply to my post. Your post was on-topic.

OK.
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Unread 12 Mar 2014, 23:49   #37
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Re: Structure Killers

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I would like to point out that if you were to dist whore as in #scans unscanable and get a wave or 2 sked you lose that tactical advantage.

there is more to it than losing CUs etc
Then maybe dists need to be look at.. still no need for SKs
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Unread 12 Mar 2014, 23:53   #38
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Re: Structure Killers

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Originally Posted by wades209 View Post
Then maybe dists need to be look at.. still no need for SKs
as the game mechanics stand ...

Value (spamming refineries and finance centres) > dist whore

I know that terran's con rate had been nerfed in recent rounds to make xan dist whoring viable.

I'll do the maths when appoco finalises r56 stats etc.
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Last edited by Paisley; 12 Mar 2014 at 23:56. Reason: edit - explained value
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 16:58   #39
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Re: Structure Killers

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Originally Posted by Clouds
Stealing structures is unrealistic.
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Originally Posted by jermain View Post
Thats an immensely helpful comment. Care to elaborate?
Because you cannot steal structures, it's a bit unrealistic.
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 17:23   #40
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Re: Structure Killers

i think the only way to eliminate sks is to have a dropdown menu covop of which building i want to destroy . its a wargame. must have the destruction option.
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 21:34   #41
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Re: Structure Killers

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Originally Posted by Vistion View Post
i think the only way to eliminate sks is to have a dropdown menu covop of which building i want to destroy . its a wargame. must have the destruction option.
Always remember not to let vistion do politics. Despite the fact he knows this is a wargame he'll start a war on behalf of your alliance and then just disappear. He's a commie, beware!
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Unread 18 Mar 2014, 23:45   #42
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Re: Structure Killers

If rather be a commie than a Turk! <3
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Unread 19 Mar 2014, 14:04   #43
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Re: Structure Killers

We totally should remove structure killers.

Nothing spoils my playing of a wargame more then my planet being hurt.

ALL I WANT IS TO PLAY MY PLANET 100% ACCORDING TO PLAN, AND NEVER LOOSE ANYTHING BECAUSE IT IS A WAR GAME etc....


Get over it, now SK's die, and you can have that structure defence construction.

leave them be, it is a choice to use them and it is a choice to defend yourself against them.

I struggle to see how SKs are worse then being roided, biggest difference is that SKs most of the time is out of class and can be stopped even if the roiding fleet lands.

All it require is ususally a tiny amount of ships - and yes you might not have those ships on your own and will need defence to stop SK's but that is a part of the game.

I sincerely struggle to see how SKs are so bad. It is easier to rebuild structures then it is to regain roids, or usually is like that anyway. The loss of constructions is also capped to 10% pr tick, all you require to regain is to click a button every 10-12 hrs and wait. Regaining roids is harder....

If you remove SKs, you might aswell remove astropods - because both ships may harm your planet and reduce your income for a while, and maybe remove motivation to play the game.

I vote both stay, or both go
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Unread 19 Mar 2014, 14:19   #44
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Re: Structure Killers

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Originally Posted by jermain View Post
Why not have SK's targetting the alliance.

By this i mean if any SK's landed on a planet, his or her alliance would take the hit.

I.E total alliance dists = 1500.

If a planet that has 150 constructions gets hit then the alliance as a whole loses 15 constructions and not just the player. This would mean you could effectively SK an alliance by hitting many different members.

You would have to fiddle the numbers as one ally losing 15 constructions is negligable but if say 20 planets were hit with an avg of 15 cons dieing on each planet that would = 300 cons.

Worth doing!

If you get my drift....

Also - most horrible idea ever.

If some nobody in a tag gets SK'd, I fail to see how my planet should suffer from it, maybe also do the same for roids. If some nobody in tag loose roids, spread roidloss evenly over alliance instead.

So, if you find idle planet in a tag - farm it 24/7 so alliance loose roids.
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