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Unread 22 Sep 2013, 06:27   #1
Patrikc
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Covert ops (Anarchy)

The addition of the covert operation that induces Anarchy is in my opinion the epitome of the issue I addressed in my thread here. There are a number of issues I have with it, and I believe it should be removed from the game.

Power.

Recently, the bank hack covop was nerfed because it was (and, in my opinion still is) too strong. At 20 agents (the amount an Anarchy covop would take), it used to steal 600k of resources from a planet. An example of how much resources this could take from an average top100 planet in the mid-round:

At 1000 roids, assuming Corporatism, 25% Population mining bonus, Core mining 2 and 30 refineries, your income is (250k + 30k + 12k) * 1.49 = 435k per tick.

Anarchy's reduction means that the income is reduced to (250k + 30k + 12k) = 292k per tick. This is a reduction of 143k, for four ticks, meaning a total of 572k. This is almost as powerful as pre-nerf bankhacks (though planets do not gain these resources, of course), and it excluding the reductions to other outputs.

Design.

Anarchy reduces your Alert by 25%. A covert op that screws up your planet for four ticks makes you more susceptiple to that very thing. So, the only way to get rid of it is to invest severely into Security. But, then your planet gets out of Anarchy, your alert goes up, and you have all these useless Guards!

Fun vs frustration.

This is something that goes for (almost) all covert ops: They are less rewarding/fun for the planet using them than they are frustrating for the target. Ever got Science hacked? Yeah, that guy totally got 4-20 XP off of you, while setting your research back by 2-6 ticks. Being put in Anarchy for 4 ticks is even more crippling, and can even be screwing you over if you were counting on something finishing at a certain tick.

I'd go as far to say that the game is better off without Covert Ops, but I would not want to remove something outright without at least trying to fix it. I've suggested some abstract things to improve in my initial thread, but for the moment I'd just like to discuss it and gather opinions before I think of ways to fix it.


tl;dr - Being able to switch governments is something long overdue, but the covert op inducing it is too powerful and a poor addition to the game.

Last edited by Patrikc; 22 Sep 2013 at 07:11.
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Unread 22 Sep 2013, 07:22   #2
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

Yes.
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Unread 22 Sep 2013, 09:22   #3
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

Hire guards. problem solved.
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Unread 22 Sep 2013, 09:35   #4
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

That solves the problem for individual players, but not for the game as a whole. Having a covert op that's way stronger than all other ops is a bad thing.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 22 Sep 2013, 19:59   #5
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

Just hired some guards; the covert op is still in the game. Problem not solved at all!
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Unread 22 Sep 2013, 20:15   #6
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

if your immune its not a problem so get immune and stop whinging like a two day old baby ,
the only thing your moaning about is having to use resources for guards that could be spent on ships
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Unread 22 Sep 2013, 20:59   #7
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

I have to say keep the status quo... It should be part of the game to take the risk of going anarchy for 72 ticks.

edit - the thought of everyone going demo until they get hulls 3, tt-4, core4 and a decent hct before going corp for the rest of the round hardly excites me.
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Unread 22 Sep 2013, 23:29   #8
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
Hire guards. problem solved.
last I checked you can still use population to security guards to compensate for this
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Unread 23 Sep 2013, 07:25   #9
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
the thought of everyone going demo until they get hulls 3, tt-4, core4 and a decent hct before going corp for the rest of the round hardly excites me.
Dynamic shit, innit!

(I gave up on this particular fight.)
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 23 Sep 2013, 22:10   #10
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

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Originally Posted by gzambo View Post
if your immune its not a problem so get immune and stop whinging like a two day old baby ,
the only thing your moaning about is having to use resources for guards that could be spent on ships
If everyone got enough guards to be immune, everyone would have fewer resources to spend on the game and covert ops would be completely useless. How is this a well designed part of the game?

I'm not sure why you're resorting to calling me a "whinging two day old baby" when I'm the one presenting a problem and arguments for it, while all you're doing is calling me names and telling me to avoid the problem.

If you have nothing to add to the discussion, don't pretend like you do and call me names instead.

Thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I have to say keep the status quo... It should be part of the game to take the risk of going anarchy for 72 ticks.

edit - the thought of everyone going demo until they get hulls 3, tt-4, core4 and a decent hct before going corp for the rest of the round hardly excites me.
Please read the post, I never suggested taking Anarchy out.
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Unread 23 Sep 2013, 22:37   #11
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Please read the post, I never suggested taking Anarchy out.
I said to leave anarchy as it is... if security guards is an issue, use population on security guards to compensate.

I would even go 1 further and make the anarchy go on the news scan / news page of PA.

I would like folk who opt for say going corp / total all round without changing government should benefit.

best way to protect yourself from cov opers ie bank hackers is not to stockpile if you are going to stockpile.... stockpile in 1 type of resource, it annoys cov opers to bits.
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Unread 24 Sep 2013, 03:57   #12
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

For the love of God, Paisley, read the original post and stay on that topic - I never mentioned anything about changing Anarchy.
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Unread 24 Sep 2013, 08:32   #13
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
For the love of God, Paisley, read the original post and stay on that topic - I never mentioned anything about changing Anarchy.
I've noticed in the manual that bank hacks have been nerfed from 10k of each per agent to 8k since I last played

I'm not happy with this as it limits the strategy of rushing bank hacks, steal resources, stash in gal fund and mid game buy ships.

In past rounds I have used bank hacks as a suppliment to roid income when I was playing at low-mid tier alliances.

It gave me a reason to be active during the day.

The bank hack formula should be changed imo to be more powerful mid to end game as it would help lower to mid tier players

1. give more incentive to be online during the day.
2. suppliments income and imo levels the playing field.
3. when played right its awards xp.
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Unread 24 Sep 2013, 08:50   #14
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

What.
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Unread 24 Sep 2013, 08:53   #15
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

I... I'm getting trolled... Right?..
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Unread 24 Sep 2013, 12:36   #16
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
For the love of God, Paisley, read
I perfectly read the post. I even read inbetween the lines of the first post.
Cui bono I hear you say let me go into detail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
I... I'm getting trolled... Right?..
(forum moderator(s) I'm now going to go into detail as to why I originally posted 2 urls of who I was/history rounds where I used bank hacks to subsidised income. If there is an issue with this post please come and see me)

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...08&postcount=2

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...78&postcount=6

This is evidence to back up what I was saying...
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...8&postcount=13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
What.
as outrageous as it may sound.

R31 My cov op income was around 10% the amount of my roid mining income.
Demo cath at that round was the best set up in terms of stealth level and recovery.
In r37 I went etd for max stealth level but was hampered to match the amount of resources due to recovery rate.
the Max Stealth rate for Cath had been lowered by 5 points if memory serves.

Even though those 2 rounds I was able to cap 30 mill in total resources.
r31 I played normally, r37 I was a dedicated cov oper until mid round.

Who were my bank hack targets? top tier / top 100 planets. Ie high value planets who stockpiled
In the event they got casual inc not only they were able to get ally/gal defence they also had the extra protection of panic buying.
Rightly so there should be a storage cost for that stockpile
I.E. guard wages, population distrubtion, building sec centres.


I am very familar with your playing style patrikc.

folk who had ideally 5 times my own value and stockpiled 3.1million+ of each resource.Using upto 31 agents to get the ideal amount of 310k of each resource. (higher agent numbers usually resulted in failure)

as the formula for the bank hacks I didnt go around hacking noobs with low(er) values as it wasn't profitable.

My values and scores for those rounds would have put me in the low/mid tier brackets.

The last thing PA needs is for top tier planets to have an easier time quite the opposite.
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Unread 24 Sep 2013, 13:03   #17
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

I played a dedicated cov opper last round, so I'm not some random player who's upset he got bankhacked. Bankhacking was overpowered last round. This round, it's merely strong.

I'm not sure how you managed to get just 30m resources as a dedicated cov opper. You can get that much in 4 days, without being extraordinary active. It's not even a full donation, let alone a full fund. Last round, I capped around 450m resources. Adding that to my score would've made me a top 20 planet. The fund isn't big enough for that, of course, but it illustrates how much I contributed to my alliance and galaxy. And no one could've stopped me. That's why it needed a nerf. And that's why it definitely does not need a buff.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 24 Sep 2013, 13:24   #18
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I played a dedicated cov opper last round, so I'm not some random player who's upset he got bankhacked. Bankhacking was overpowered last round. This round, it's merely strong.

I'm not sure how you managed to get just 30m resources as a dedicated cov opper. You can get that much in 4 days, without being extraordinary active. It's not even a full donation, let alone a full fund. Last round, I capped around 450m resources. Adding that to my score would've made me a top 20 planet. The fund isn't big enough for that, of course, but it illustrates how much I contributed to my alliance and galaxy. And no one could've stopped me. That's why it needed a nerf. And that's why it definitely does not need a buff.
Its to do with targetting and what level your targetting is at.
If you didn't have any value say upto 50k value. (depending on the value as the round progresses) You could just farm inactive planets who stockpile because they are inactive. very likely have no security and go farming.

My targetting those rounds were top tier players because that was the level I had to target. I would have had a lower overall sucess rate than bottom feeding inactives. I.E. a safe bet.

I wish I had the stats for r31 for other cov ops. r37 my ally at the time ND wanted Apprime and evo targetted for amps and dists as part of ally strategy.
so stealth that i had used for blowing up amps and dists could have been focused on bank hacks.
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Unread 24 Sep 2013, 13:34   #19
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

XP should be buffed, because top 100 planets don't get a lot of XP.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 24 Sep 2013, 18:42   #20
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

I give up. Good luck Mz.
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Unread 24 Sep 2013, 19:29   #21
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
Hire guards. problem solved.
Agreed. You can always prevent this from happening u just need to alter your strategy. I like the covop and if anything think successive hits should add. If the person is not active/smart enough to build security after the first hit then its their own fault! Most top 100 planets have security already so this is a mute point anyways.
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Unread 24 Sep 2013, 19:52   #22
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

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Agreed. You can always prevent this from happening u just need to alter your strategy. I like the covop and if anything think successive hits should add. If the person is not active/smart enough to build security after the first hit then its their own fault! Most top 100 planets have security already so this is a mute point anyways.
I don't get why people see this as a valid argument.

Think of it like Poker. You play the game, bet chips, win some, lose some.

Then comes along a guy, a spectator, who starts chugging popcorn at you. It distracts you from the game. You confront him and he demands 10% of your chips, and he will stop. You decline at first, thinking you don't want to give up your advantage in the game. But as you're playing, you find more and more opponents paying off this guy, having them more focused on the game. After a while, you're the only one left that hasn't given in to the demands.

Fed up, you go to the manager of the casino and tell him about the situation. Instead of removing the guy, he just says "well, why didn't you just pay him 10%? Problem solved!."

Yes, everyone could just pay x% of resources to be immune to covert ops. Then they would be useless. So what you're suggesting isn't a solution either - if everyone listened to you, we'd have a page in PA that has no function other than draining your resources.
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Unread 24 Sep 2013, 22:22   #23
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
I don't get why people see this as a valid argument.

Think of it like Poker. You play the game, bet chips, win some, lose some.

Then comes along a guy, a spectator, who starts chugging popcorn at you. It distracts you from the game. You confront him and he demands 10% of your chips, and he will stop. You decline at first, thinking you don't want to give up your advantage in the game. But as you're playing, you find more and more opponents paying off this guy, having them more focused on the game. After a while, you're the only one left that hasn't given in to the demands.

Fed up, you go to the manager of the casino and tell him about the situation. Instead of removing the guy, he just says "well, why didn't you just pay him 10%? Problem solved!."

Yes, everyone could just pay x% of resources to be immune to covert ops. Then they would be useless. So what you're suggesting isn't a solution either - if everyone listened to you, we'd have a page in PA that has no function other than draining your resources.
Its not the popcorn thrower that gets 10% its the manager.. And isnt it fair that the manager gets some to keep him away?

Anyway scans also cost money, trading resources cost, distorters cost money, amps cost money, every thing in the game that give you an edge costs cash. And not paying wages can be a way to earn a little extra over thoose who do, giving some extra strategical choices. And to anarchy being too strong, I dont think so, bank hacks on the other hand is still abit too strong. And its the fact that you gain the resources that make it strong, not that you give the target less cash.
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Unread 25 Sep 2013, 01:35   #24
Patrikc
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Its not the popcorn thrower that gets 10% its the manager.. And isnt it fair that the manager gets some to keep him away?
You're right, if you pay the 10% it doesn't go to the popcorn thrower - I suppose the better analogy would be to get a fan blowing them away or a helmet. The idea is the same, though, you're paying money for someone not even playing the game.


As for the strength, the target loses that amount of resources on top of Construction, Research, Production and Alert being compromised.

As stated before, I don't mean to change Anarchy at all, but at the very least change the covert op to 2 or 3 ticks.
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Unread 25 Sep 2013, 12:20   #25
Urgamanix
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Re: Covert ops (Anarchy)

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
I don't get why people see this as a valid argument.

Think of it like Poker. You play the game, bet chips, win some, lose some.

Then comes along a guy, a spectator, who starts chugging popcorn at you. It distracts you from the game. You confront him and he demands 10% of your chips, and he will stop. You decline at first, thinking you don't want to give up your advantage in the game. But as you're playing, you find more and more opponents paying off this guy, having them more focused on the game. After a while, you're the only one left that hasn't given in to the demands.

Fed up, you go to the manager of the casino and tell him about the situation. Instead of removing the guy, he just says "well, why didn't you just pay him 10%? Problem solved!."

Yes, everyone could just pay x% of resources to be immune to covert ops. Then they would be useless. So what you're suggesting isn't a solution either - if everyone listened to you, we'd have a page in PA that has no function other than draining your resources.
Er.. the point is that not everyone will pay the guy off (to use your very dubious analogy). That's the risk vs reward. Which is what a lot of fun games are based on. Including PA.
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