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Unread 28 Feb 2016, 17:57   #1
Paisley
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R66 ship stats

I've heard through the rummour mill that Patrikc is up to do the stats next round...

any truth to this?
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Unread 28 Feb 2016, 19:28   #2
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Re: R66 ship stats

They have been done and are in the final step of tweaking. You can find them at http://speedgame.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats currently.

I like to think they are an improved version of what last round's stats tried to be, with Fi/Bs's limited targeting making them offensive, Fr/De being defensive with 4 targets and Co/Cr being the in-between option.

You'll notice some oddities with ERes of certain EMP ships - this was intentional to ensure these ships are not useless as they fire after their opposing attack fleets. Play around with some calcs, especially when combined with others of their class, and see the results!

And again, while targeting and initiatives are effectively final*, numbers are still to be fiddled with.

Last edited by Patrikc; 4 Mar 2016 at 23:50.
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 01:36   #3
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Re: R66 ship stats

I was hoping for a better calibre of stats
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 05:10   #4
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Re: R66 ship stats

First glance, "meh". Go Xan.

What's with the Terran "super Fi" without a ship name?
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 07:45   #5
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Re: R66 ship stats

Constructive criticism is always welcome.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
What's with the Terran "super Fi" without a ship name?
Just an extra ship, it'll be deleted when moved to beta server.
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 07:56   #6
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Re: R66 ship stats

Kind of agree with cochese. First look over these stats doesn't inspire. I'm not to sure what is going on with the ints too, it seems to be a trend of everything firing at a different time, which sounds boring. But I guess there is no other serous set on offer so we will end up with these . Playable but dull
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 08:31   #7
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Re: R66 ship stats

Haven't looked, but dull is good.
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 08:37   #8
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Re: R66 ship stats

Kiaba I thought you quit, or did norse winning this round drag you out of Retirement?


Decent stats, I hated the way De interacted in this past rounds stats and glad to see the fr/de meta class back to where it should be. I've always been a fan of Pat's stats, its good to see you back in the arena. I like that this set allows for forts, but also the mass xp route as well as many solo attack options.
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 08:47   #9
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Re: R66 ship stats

Terran looks overpowered to me...particularly Terran BS. When combined with Cat its unstoppable.

Edit: Been looking at ways to solve this, and I would switch the Guardian targeting around. Think it balances the stats out better.
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 09:10   #10
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Re: R66 ship stats

I can see you are concerned by this having looked at Guardian's EMP values...

WTF! haha. All over the place.

Anyway, I will wait until you say they are finished because I'm not sure how final they are and will comment then.
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 09:48   #11
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Re: R66 ship stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
Terran looks overpowered to me...particularly Terran BS. When combined with Cat its unstoppable.

DE forts?
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 11:21   #12
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Re: R66 ship stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Kiaba I thought you quit, or did norse winning this round drag you out of Retirement?


Decent stats, I hated the way De interacted in this past rounds stats and glad to see the fr/de meta class back to where it should be. I've always been a fan of Pat's stats, its good to see you back in the arena. I like that this set allows for forts, but also the mass xp route as well as many solo attack options.
These stats don't lend themselves for anything but forts. I know you will argue against by using Xan co as an example but the truth of the matter is with Xan co having 3 ships to build it will play like fr/de meaning you'd need to pump so much value into it that you simply cannot do anything but xp whore.

These stats to me are everything we are trying to get away from. We have talked about reducing bp sizes or making everyone go random and then we have these which encourage the complete opposite.
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 11:57   #13
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Re: R66 ship stats

Xan needs alot of tuning, even with 3 ships in CO class they still possess the most landing possibilities out of all races. Maybe make Cutter also init 6 or so to weaken Xan.

Otherwise its looking decent set, already in better shape than r65 was.
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 12:07   #14
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Re: R66 ship stats

Nothing there can roid DE forts
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 12:28   #15
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Re: R66 ship stats

DE fort, avoidance, init to winit
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 12:43   #16
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Re: R66 ship stats

These stats doesn't just encurage forting, it made it to fort or go for xp.

You say FI is offensive, only thing you can roid is other etds (if you got enough), xan (if you got enough) and terran. But it's very easy to stop with forts. Don't see it as an option for any value play.

Xan CO is an option because of tt and cloacked, but can't really attack forts either, and xan can pretty much be roided by everyone. No value play.

DE looks strong, but can also be stopped by forts.

CR and BS also very strong.

My prediction, we'll se loads of forts. Every alliance will have fort avoidances. Either fort or go xp.

All randoms will get roided to pieces and small alliances will get roided to pieces if they don't fort.

Seems like we're in for a fun round!

I'm not saying the sets unplayable, the stats are decent for top alliances, just that you have to fort or go for xp. Which I think is crap.

Last edited by Sandvold; 29 Feb 2016 at 15:16.
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 13:01   #17
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Re: R66 ship stats

I liked the last set I played of yours Patrikc, but this one just looks all over the place and goes against the general community consensus (Check PA Suggestions forum).

Have we got any alternative sets?
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 13:02   #18
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Re: R66 ship stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larppa View Post
Xan needs alot of tuning, even with 3 ships in CO class they still possess the most landing possibilities out of all races. Maybe make Cutter also init 6 or so to weaken Xan.

Otherwise its looking decent set, already in better shape than r65 was.
No, just no.
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 13:04   #19
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Re: R66 ship stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
I liked the last set I played of yours Patrikc, but this one just looks all over the place and goes against the general community consensus (Check PA Suggestions forum).

Have we got any alternative sets?
papadoc have a set, not sure how far he is with it though

edit: atm Pats set is on both speedgame and winter server
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 13:52   #20
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Re: R66 ship stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
I liked the last set I played of yours Patrikc, but this one just looks all over the place and goes against the general community consensus (Check PA Suggestions forum).

Have we got any alternative sets?
Totally agree. When many don't want forting I think it's rather retarded a set that encourage forting as much as this set does.

At least give the option of forting, xp and valueplay without forts.

I see it as kind of strange that PA-crew would chose a set like this when there seems to be many that don't want forts. Also having a set that only allowes mid+heavy to do other then xp is also idiotic. Just profit the strong alliances. Would be interesting to hear what patrikc plan was with the stats. If he wanted a fort friendly set he succeeded at least. Also ensuring that they can't get xp farmed lateround


And is something wrong with the illusion? It have to be a mistake?
And guardian T2 is more efficent then t1 ?

http://xmas.planetarion.com/statsanalysis.pl

Last edited by Sandvold; 29 Feb 2016 at 15:39.
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 15:47   #21
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Re: R66 ship stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Constructive criticism is always welcome.
Not having a go or anything ... but I was expecting someone of your calibre to make faking meta classes possible or add some excitement to the ship stats.

at least you can still solo with these stats and not lolwave for 20 roids if I was to pick a positive.
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 15:50   #22
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Re: R66 ship stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Not having a go or anything ... but I was expecting someone of your calibre to make faking meta classes possible or add some excitement to the ship stats.

at least you can still solo with these stats and not lolwave for 20 roids if I was to pick a positive.
To bad you can't keep em if you're not forted:P
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 16:37   #23
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Re: R66 ship stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandvold View Post
And is something wrong with the illusion? It have to be a mistake?
And guardian T2 is more efficent then t1 ?

http://xmas.planetarion.com/statsanalysis.pl
Illusion is costs nearly double to make faking with just pods riskier, but it has no effect on real attacks as its armor and ERes are in line with the other Co.

I don't see a problem with an EMP ship being more efficient T2 than T1, and specifically the Guardian fires after Cat Bs, though I'd expect us to increase Cat Bs ERes by a point or two (though in reality only the Hornet's ERes matters). As I said, numbers aren't fixed yet.


As for forting, I wanted to be Fr and De forts to be an option, not a must-go. Fr forts would be open to Bs XP runs while De would be open to Fi ones. As long as galaxy size isn't at 8 or higher, I don't predict that being a huge problem.
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 17:16   #24
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Re: R66 ship stats

Galaxies are always higher than 8? It will be another snooze fest post tick 500.
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 17:45   #25
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Re: R66 ship stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Illusion is costs nearly double to make faking with just pods riskier, but it has no effect on real attacks as its armor and ERes are in line with the other Co.

I don't see a problem with an EMP ship being more efficient T2 than T1, and specifically the Guardian fires after Cat Bs, though I'd expect us to increase Cat Bs ERes by a point or two (though in reality only the Hornet's ERes matters). As I said, numbers aren't fixed yet.


As for forting, I wanted to be Fr and De forts to be an option, not a must-go. Fr forts would be open to Bs XP runs while De would be open to Fi ones. As long as galaxy size isn't at 8 or higher, I don't predict that being a huge problem.
First of as long as BP's isn't reduced galaxy size is more likely to be 10 at the eor.

Was at work, did some calcs now, and yea the illusion work. Just seemed wierd, also when it doesn't apply for the vampire. Shouldn't the same thing apply there?

Same for the T2 targeting, wierd having it t2 higher. Don't have any problems with it, other then it being in in the high 160, but yea fine.

For forting when the only "obsticale" is xp runs it's only a possibility for a while. Who do you think of alliances will go etd fi as a strategy? When you get a few ships the two xan's build some banshee and you're good.

When you also opened up that BS can hit FR (and DE probably, depends on how many caths) it also become an possibility to fort as BS.

Lets see what ally help you can get:
FI = Beetle, Banshee, Cutlass
Fort = Need 1 cutter fleet

CO = Creditor, Phantom, harpy, Corsair.
Fort= Pegs, Locust

FR = Pulsar or bomber
Fort= Rogue, bomber

DE = Viper, scarab
Fort= Guardian, roach

CR/BS Forting and ally def is same thing.

FR fort=
Wasp, Locust, Scarab, tarantula, Mantis
Clipper(-), Cutter(-), Buccaneer, Rogue, Cutlass
Weak vs BS

DE fort=
Drake, Pegs, Gryphon, Dragon
Bomber, Revenant, Banshee
Weak vs FI (for a short while)

CR fort=
Rogue, marauder, cutlass
Creditor, Recluse, Guardian, Tycoon
Weak vs BS if loads of cath

BS fort=
Wyvern, dragon, pegs, (war frigate)
Roach, tarantula, Wasp, Locust
Weak vs FR

So if you look however you fort you are only weak vs 1 thing. So FI can hit De forts, CO can't attack a fort.

Can you think of any alliance going FI? So FI isn't really an option. FI and CO is what have the most ally def vs it as well, so seems like an idiotic choice to pick.

You've made stats that have garantueed forting. Nobody in their right mind will go random. If you go random it's purely for XP or you're lucky ending up in a good gal

Can ad this as well to show you why it'll be forting:
FR ally (except if you outflak before you get to killing)
Can outflak vs FI in ally (except mass Cutlass)
No def vs CO in ally
No def vs FR in ally
Scarab vs DE in ally
Forting gives em everything - anti-BS

DE ally
Can outflak FI
No def vs CO
Pulsar vs FR
Bomber vs DE
Forting gives them everything, but same problem with FI

CR ally
Can outflak vs FI
Creditor vs CO
No def vs FR
No def vs DE
Gives them everything if they fort

BS ally
Can outflak vs FI
No def vs CO
No def vs FR
Scarab vs DE
Gives them everything except anti-fr

Last edited by Sandvold; 29 Feb 2016 at 18:38.
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 20:27   #26
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Re: R66 ship stats

I agree with many of the comments already mentioned; I too don’t like the emphasis this set puts on forts, and agree it seems unlikely that we will get the small galaxies you appear to be hoping for (although I would like this too) have you been given indications by the pa crew that they are cutting bp sizes?

So what are the obvious ship builds?
Ter de - 5 ships; WF, Drake, Peg, Gryphon, Wyvern (or Phoenix) = 3 classes
Ter bs – 5 ships; WF, Drake, Pegasus, Wyvern, Dragon = 3 classes
Cat fr – 5 ships; Spider, Wasp, Locust, Scarab, Mantis = 3 classes
Cat bs – 6 ships; Spider, Beetle, Locust, Mantis, Roach, Tarantula = 4 classes
Xan co – 6 ships; Pulsar, Banshee, Wraith, Bomber, Revenant, Bolt Thrower = 2 classes
Xan de – why go different?
Zik fr – 4 ships; Clipper, Cutter, Buccaneer, Rogue = 2 classes
Zik cr – 4 ships; Marauder, Rogue, Cutter, Buccaneer = 2 classes
Etd fi – 5 ships; Creditor, Sylph, Avenger, Centaur, Guardian = 3 classes
Etd cr – 4 ships; Avenger, Centaur, Crook, Guardian (very open to co if no creds though) = 2 classes

Does this not seem a little unfair… particularly on poor cat bs? Moreover notice that every single one relies upon a downward firing ship somewhere, can’t get much more encouraging of forts than that. I also really don’t like the way xan have been done. Making them 6 ships is clearly to weaken them which as a xan hater I agree with but I dislike that it makes sense to go both de and co. Better to have xan a bit stronger and force them to make a choice imo.
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 22:21   #27
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Re: R66 ship stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandvold View Post
First of as long as BP's isn't reduced galaxy size is more likely to be 10 at the eor.
Which is why I am strongly suggesting reducing it, and have made these stats with 6-7 planet galaxies in mind.

Quote:
Same for the T2 targeting, wierd having it t2 higher. Don't have any problems with it, other then it being in in the high 160, but yea fine.
EMP shouldn't go over 160 except in specific cases, so this will be tuned.

Quote:
For forting when the only "obsticale" is xp runs it's only a possibility for a while. Who do you think of alliances will go etd fi as a strategy? When you get a few ships the two xan's build some banshee and you're good.
I didn't say their only obstacle was XP runs, but it'll be where there main vulnerability lies. And I don't mean that they'll only be roided by people willing to sacrifice value, but Bs heavy planets, moreso than Fi, will only need 2 ships, be hard pressed to keep roids (see r65 Cat Bs) and therefore be more. And keep in mind that Fr/De is weak to itself, as well, though that's not the preferred way of keeping something in check.


Quote:
Can you think of any alliance going FI? So FI isn't really an option. FI and CO is what have the most ally def vs it as well, so seems like an idiotic choice to pick.
What would be wrong with going Fi? Zik/Etd Fi/Cr for example would work fine.
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 22:28   #28
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Re: R66 ship stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
Does this not seem a little unfair… particularly on poor cat bs? Moreover notice that every single one relies upon a downward firing ship somewhere, can’t get much more encouraging of forts than that. I also really don’t like the way xan have been done. Making them 6 ships is clearly to weaken them which as a xan hater I agree with but I dislike that it makes sense to go both de and co. Better to have xan a bit stronger and force them to make a choice imo.
Why do Xan need 6 ships? They only need 5 by my count, unless they want the threat of both Co and De. The fact that they can funnel it all into 2 classes is why the Co fleet is split in 3.

I agree on Cath though, if you go Bs you have to commit to offense and forego keeping roids, which doesn't seem fair. Meanwhile Zik only needs 4, perhaps I'll put Rogue T2 on Marauder, though that still makes Zik Cr only need 4. Moving Cutter T2 to Clipper would solve this as well. All things that need consideration.

Thank you both for your input!
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 23:13   #29
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Re: R66 ship stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Which is why I am strongly suggesting reducing it, and have made these stats with 6-7 planet galaxies in mind.


EMP shouldn't go over 160 except in specific cases, so this will be tuned.



I didn't say their only obstacle was XP runs, but it'll be where there main vulnerability lies. And I don't mean that they'll only be roided by people willing to sacrifice value, but Bs heavy planets, moreso than Fi, will only need 2 ships, be hard pressed to keep roids (see r65 Cat Bs) and therefore be more. And keep in mind that Fr/De is weak to itself, as well, though that's not the preferred way of keeping something in check.




What would be wrong with going Fi? Zik/Etd Fi/Cr for example would work fine.
I agree zik fi/etd fi works, again as a fort if u want to keep the darn roids.

But isnt it quite strange to make a set for gals of 6-7 planets and we got no indication for this happening?
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Unread 29 Feb 2016, 23:44   #30
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Why do Xan need 6 ships? They only need 5 by my count, unless they want the threat of both Co and De. The fact that they can funnel it all into 2 classes is why the Co fleet is split in 3.
My apologies 5, though in practice they will surely use all six. I guess we just have a general disagreement on 2 classes thing.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 06:15   #31
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Re: R66 ship stats

Sorry to say, but this is the worst set proposed in a long time. Thats nothing personal. I know you have been makin proper sets in the past.

Forting is way too strong. Probably even mandatory to do good. Terran and war the mining page. No real counter option. Defensive game . Boring round.
And all this even though the General forum consensus was hoping for more random play without forts.

The worst time for a defensive set that is average at best.

I would be asking for diffrent stats offers. But knowing how few time appoco has i am confident patc has appocos word allready. I can only hope patc has another set rdy, cause this one cant be fixed with a few tweaks but only a General targeting overhaul.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 07:15   #32
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Re: R66 ship stats

Forting Will always be a problem until the galaxy and Bp system is overhauled Live with it. Only Real way to avoid it is for 100% random gals or a max of 2 per Bp. That way we can have 90+ gals of less than 10 people.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 07:25   #33
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
Sorry to say, but this is the worst set proposed in a long time. Thats nothing personal. I know you have been makin proper sets in the past.

Forting is way too strong. Probably even mandatory to do good. Terran and war the mining page. No real counter option. Defensive game . Boring round.
And all this even though the General forum consensus was hoping for more random play without forts.

The worst time for a defensive set that is average at best.

I would be asking for diffrent stats offers. But knowing how few time appoco has i am confident patc has appocos word allready. I can only hope patc has another set rdy, cause this one cant be fixed with a few tweaks but only a General targeting overhaul.
Targeting won't be changed much. It passes Jintao's targeting matrix. Which makes the set balanced in his eyes. I don't think putting stats in a matrix is the way to show it's balanced, but we disagree there.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 07:27   #34
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Forting Will always be a problem until the galaxy and Bp system is overhauled Live with it. Only Real way to avoid it is for 100% random gals or a max of 2 per Bp. That way we can have 90+ gals of less than 10 people.
I agree that it will be a problem no mather what. But this forces forts.

Xp or fort, that's the two only options you got with this set
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 07:44   #35
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Forting Will always be a problem until the galaxy and Bp system is overhauled Live with it. Only Real way to avoid it is for 100% random gals or a max of 2 per Bp. That way we can have 90+ gals of less than 10 people.
Well, i agree, but what has this post to do with this set of stats?

If there is allready 2 strong reasons to do forts and now you add a third (a set of stats making forting mandatory), what outcome would you expect on the "fort-issue" !?
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 07:47   #36
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Sandvold View Post
Targeting won't be changed much. It passes Jintao's targeting matrix. Which makes the set balanced in his eyes. I don't think putting stats in a matrix is the way to show it's balanced, but we disagree there.
Yes i know it wont be, thats why i was hoping for another set beeing rdy (i know it wont be either).
Can at least express my hopes...

100% agree on the matrix issue btw
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 07:50   #37
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Re: R66 ship stats

Can someone clarify what the forting issue is?

So far all I have seen is people complaining that they aren't good/active enough to play in an effective fort
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 08:07   #38
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Re: R66 ship stats

M0 any stet of stats can be made into a super heavy fort setup, its just how many options are their, is fr/de the only viable fort or can cr/bs also fort as well. In this set BS cant really fort as it only targets 2 classes which means splitting value into more than 4 ships which makes you weak.

In PA there are 2 viable strats, Xp or Value of which can be played 2 ways.
Xp can be played with big attack fleets and small def fleets and just 2x/3x most of the round and not care about def/ holding roid value , usually works well with a high powered emp fleet + a high init kill ship in the other fleet. Or you can play MC Value sink which has been mostly nerfed by the PA staff.

Value can be played either in a fort set up where you can min-max your value so that every ship you build has a good matchup vs the attackers ratios usually benifiting from ingal eta def ships to force good calcs. Or you can play hyper Defensive where you have good dc's and strong def combo's in order to force recalls or retal with good fc's for value gains.

This is how PA works fundamentally You are doing one of those basic ideas. My point is saying this set of stats is too easy to fort i beg you to show me a set of stats in the past 15 rounds where you CANT fort because they will always exist and if the players are good enough they will do well. So to attack a set of stats for being too easy to fort just tells me that you are not creative and would rather just bash at Pat because you've even said that my set 2 rounds ago was the worst now you are saying this set is even worse than that? You either must have had your brain taken out and put back in or that's the only way you can analyze stats.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 08:14   #39
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Can someone clarify what the forting issue is?

So far all I have seen is people complaining that they aren't good/active enough to play in an effective fort
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
I would like the bp system removed...if not permanantly at least for 1 round as a test. Reasons:

1. There is little community spirit and this would help bring it back.
2. Stops hcs from fencing gals.
3. Makes political allegiances more open.
4. Should mean that targetting a gal isnt a declaration of war for 1 evening!
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 08:17   #40
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
M0 any stet of stats can be made into a super heavy fort setup, its just how many options are their, is fr/de the only viable fort or can cr/bs also fort as well. In this set BS cant really fort as it only targets 2 classes which means splitting value into more than 4 ships which makes you weak.

In PA there are 2 viable strats, Xp or Value of which can be played 2 ways.
Xp can be played with big attack fleets and small def fleets and just 2x/3x most of the round and not care about def/ holding roid value , usually works well with a high powered emp fleet + a high init kill ship in the other fleet. Or you can play MC Value sink which has been mostly nerfed by the PA staff.

Value can be played either in a fort set up where you can min-max your value so that every ship you build has a good matchup vs the attackers ratios usually benifiting from ingal eta def ships to force good calcs. Or you can play hyper Defensive where you have good dc's and strong def combo's in order to force recalls or retal with good fc's for value gains.

This is how PA works fundamentally You are doing one of those basic ideas. My point is saying this set of stats is too easy to fort i beg you to show me a set of stats in the past 15 rounds where you CANT fort because they will always exist and if the players are good enough they will do well. So to attack a set of stats for being too easy to fort just tells me that you are not creative and would rather just bash at Pat because you've even said that my set 2 rounds ago was the worst now you are saying this set is even worse than that? You either must have had your brain taken out and put back in or that's the only way you can analyze stats.
It's not about stopping forting...it's about offering a viable alternative (to go random) and these stats offer no options for this post tick 500.

Your set from two rounds ago were the worst stats I've ever played, and these stats follow the same pattern...and you are praising them as looking good (which doesn't surprise me!)
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 08:20   #41
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Re: R66 ship stats

I also think its a bit ridiculous that there is only 1 race with fi pods and 1 race with co pods.

It shows where Patrikc's mind was at when creating these stats.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 08:36   #42
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Re: R66 ship stats

Tia; it is rather confusing that in PA we have two different things we both call forts.
The first is where the stats are defensive and a player can play with most of his value in one ship type.
The second is where galaxies are mostly made of one alliance.

Perhaps strangely for the strat forum and stats thread where we normally talk about the first type m0 and sandvold are actually referring to the second type here. This is a result of the dominance of downward firing compared to ally def ships.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 09:01   #43
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Re: R66 ship stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
I would like the bp system removed...if not permanantly at least for 1 round as a test. Reasons:

1. There is little community spirit and this would help bring it back.
2. Stops hcs from fencing gals.
3. Makes political allegiances more open.
4. Should mean that targetting a gal isnt a declaration of war for 1 evening!
1. Personal opinion, I'm sure some areas has plenty of community spirit.

2. Politics/bad HCs

3. Forts have no bearing on allegiances

4. Once again it's bad politics/hcs that allow this to happen, not forts
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 09:32   #44
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Re: R66 ship stats

Have you played recently? Because all of your points are false.

Referring to community spirit...it would decrease the likelihood of inexperienced players being booted out of gal at the first chance they get. It's important to try and help new players rather than simply dispose of them. There is no real reason for them to want to stay and play with the attitudes forts adhere to.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 09:45   #45
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
Have you played recently? Because all of your points are false.
Yes I have and no they aren't. You guys always blame everything apart from yourselves when you fall short. Like the current trend of discrediting everyone with unfounded cheating allegations rather than actually trying to improve what you have and close the gap on the top.

Forts are just a style of play. They are possible in any scenario as they basically revolve around having a group of players looking after each other. Although stats like these improve the chance of fort success it does not mean every fort will be successful.

All of your reasons above are not the result of forting being a blight on PA. They are in fact all down to bitter little tinpot HCs who refuse to wipe clean slates round on round and instead refuse to work with certain groups cos of a bad experience 15 rounds ago or so.

The lack of competent and fluid politics and ridiculous nap/avoidance agreements are the genuine scourge of the game. You will find that alliances that truly fort to improve defence will not start wars over a fort getting hit yet those which fort for the sake of getting naps and avoidance will happily go to war because their sub standard fort players got wtfpawned because they weren't up to scratch.

I feel I need to drive this point home that although these stats aren't great that truly good players can play a fort with any stats as the fort is solely a reliable defpool for the team.

What is more a killer of community spirit is certain HCs spewing bile all over these forums and throwing serious allegations about the legitimacy of players and alliances playing within the rules without STiLL providing a shred of evidence to prove it. That drives a wedge right through the community and does more damage than 4-5 guys out of 600 wanting to play for each other
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 09:59   #46
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Re: R66 ship stats

I'm sure they have proof...

And this has nothing to do with what you speak of. So don't bring it into this thread either.

Fencing gals results from others having played together previously and joining certain alliances just to avoid incs. I fail to see how this is down to HC's "poor politics" as you put it. Certain Bps specifically join different alliances for this sole purpose.

And yes, every time a fort is targeted in modern PA it turns into war, so no it is not politics again. Near enough everyone has fort avoidances in place to benefit themselves and to the detriment of random galaxies.

You say political allegiances aren't affected by forts which is completely false. If you are in galaxies with other alliances you would have to pick and choose your naps wisely based around certain mitigating factors...e.g. number of planets of certain alliances in galaxies with your planets, the strategy of said alliances. It has everything to do with it.

Yes, I agree that certain alliances prefer working together - but have you noticed its the same alliances working together near enough each round. Why is this?

The point is not how to play forts Kaiba, but that you have to play forts to have any chance of success - which is a limiting factor that lends itself to the boredom of each round.

If you don't get that then I would like your Doc to provide me with a prescription of what you're smoking!
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 10:01   #47
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
M0 any stet of stats can be made into a super heavy fort setup, its just how many options are their, is fr/de the only viable fort or can cr/bs also fort as well. In this set BS cant really fort as it only targets 2 classes which means splitting value into more than 4 ships which makes you weak.

In PA there are 2 viable strats, Xp or Value of which can be played 2 ways.
Xp can be played with big attack fleets and small def fleets and just 2x/3x most of the round and not care about def/ holding roid value , usually works well with a high powered emp fleet + a high init kill ship in the other fleet. Or you can play MC Value sink which has been mostly nerfed by the PA staff.

Value can be played either in a fort set up where you can min-max your value so that every ship you build has a good matchup vs the attackers ratios usually benifiting from ingal eta def ships to force good calcs. Or you can play hyper Defensive where you have good dc's and strong def combo's in order to force recalls or retal with good fc's for value gains.

This is how PA works fundamentally You are doing one of those basic ideas. My point is saying this set of stats is too easy to fort i beg you to show me a set of stats in the past 15 rounds where you CANT fort because they will always exist and if the players are good enough they will do well. So to attack a set of stats for being too easy to fort just tells me that you are not creative and would rather just bash at Pat because you've even said that my set 2 rounds ago was the worst now you are saying this set is even worse than that? You either must have had your brain taken out and put back in or that's the only way you can analyze stats.
Downward firing, no posibility of ally def, so it is smart to put 5 ppl from same ally with same strat into a gal is something I say is a fort. I don't care if you split in 3-4-5 ships. As long as you have ships that only can def downwards it will be a fort.

No value play can be played as long as you have possibility of alliance def, which you don't have with most strategies in this set. Hell I've played value every round since i returned and not once forted. You have three options, fort value, random value and xp. This set removes random value altogether.

I wasn't particular fond of your set, but didn't think it was crap either. For random gals I acutally would say this set is interesting since you force galaxies to def eachother.

Lets look at the possible alliance stratgies which I already did for four, but I can throw in the other two as well to show why you would fort, aka 5 ppl from same ally.

FI ally (lets throw in zik so it's even an option to get some def)
Cutlass to outflak vs FI in ally (not very likely if you go FI)
Creds vs CO in ally
No def vs FR in ally
No def vs DE in ally
Forts give everything, but anti-co is the same

Co ally
Can outflak vs FI in ally
No def vs CO
Pulsar vs FR
Wraith vs DE
No difference forting or not

FR ally
Can outflak vs FI in ally (except mass Cutlass)
No def vs CO in ally
No def vs FR in ally
Scarab vs DE in ally
Forting gives em everything - anti-BS

DE ally
Can outflak FI
No def vs CO
Pulsar vs FR
Bomber vs DE
Forting gives them everything, but same problem with FI

CR ally
Can outflak vs FI
Creditor vs CO
No def vs FR
No def vs DE
Gives them everything if they fort

BS ally
Can outflak vs FI
No def vs CO
No def vs FR
Scarab vs DE
Gives them everything except anti-fr

Forting 4-5 from each alliance gives you an huge advantage with every strategy except going CO. Going CO is to weak to go a full alliance on your own, since it got to many holes for value play. For xp on the other hand it works.

So downward firing and it's an advantage to fort. It's not been this bad in the other sets
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 10:02   #48
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Re: R66 ship stats

This isn't about falling short...this is about the game not being entertaining and community spirit dwindling, so quit going on the offensive. We all know of your love for Ult, you don't need to preach about it in every single thread.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 10:02   #49
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Re: R66 ship stats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Yes I have and no they aren't. You guys always blame everything apart from yourselves when you fall short. Like the current trend of discrediting everyone with unfounded cheating allegations rather than actually trying to improve what you have and close the gap on the top.

Forts are just a style of play. They are possible in any scenario as they basically revolve around having a group of players looking after each other. Although stats like these improve the chance of fort success it does not mean every fort will be successful.

All of your reasons above are not the result of forting being a blight on PA. They are in fact all down to bitter little tinpot HCs who refuse to wipe clean slates round on round and instead refuse to work with certain groups cos of a bad experience 15 rounds ago or so.

The lack of competent and fluid politics and ridiculous nap/avoidance agreements are the genuine scourge of the game. You will find that alliances that truly fort to improve defence will not start wars over a fort getting hit yet those which fort for the sake of getting naps and avoidance will happily go to war because their sub standard fort players got wtfpawned because they weren't up to scratch.

I feel I need to drive this point home that although these stats aren't great that truly good players can play a fort with any stats as the fort is solely a reliable defpool for the team.

What is more a killer of community spirit is certain HCs spewing bile all over these forums and throwing serious allegations about the legitimacy of players and alliances playing within the rules without STiLL providing a shred of evidence to prove it. That drives a wedge right through the community and does more damage than 4-5 guys out of 600 wanting to play for each other
I agree that you can always build a strong gal and make a fort no mather the stats. But when you don't have the possibility with ally def in most cases it demands forting.
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Unread 1 Mar 2016, 10:19   #50
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Re: R66 ship stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
This is how PA works fundamentally You are doing one of those basic ideas. My point is saying this set of stats is too easy to fort i beg you to show me a set of stats in the past 15 rounds where you CANT fort because they will always exist and if the players are good enough they will do well. So to attack a set of stats for being too easy to fort just tells me that you are not creative and would rather just bash at Pat because you've even said that my set 2 rounds ago was the worst now you are saying this set is even worse than that? You either must have had your brain taken out and put back in or that's the only way you can analyze stats.
First of all, i dont know why you have to round up your post with an insult, but ok i guess this is common behaviour in the anonymity of the internet. I wont pick it up though - so make up your own "insulting answer" if you feel it belongs to a good discussion.

Like booji and sandvold allready pointed out there is no viable option for value play while not sitting in a forted gal, as the options for ally def are simply not available or too weak. And relying on prelaunched defence works only for the most active.
At the same time its only secondary if those forts exist of 1 or more alliances, but as recent politics showed, usually its 1 alliance.

There wont be a set where you CANT fort, but there have been a lot of sets where forting wasnt the only viable option. Usually a set where 1 metaclass can hit 4 others is doomed to be easily too defensive. This set has 2 of those, spread on 4 of 5 races.

Apologies for my rather harsh statement about those sets beeing the worst sets i have ever seen, iīll try to adapt my expression here and call them just bad sets.
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