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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 15:33   #51
Truhatred
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Tia: there had been situations like that every round. And what's the difference of having a ship fire before one or at the same time really. We could make rogues fire first but that would be way overpowered so we would have to lower their dmg to compensate. If people want to suicide def like that its their choice. Also if you play zik to solo attack... That's your choice... Most of the comments about suiciding def are jokes IMO. It just stems from people not wanting to possibly lose value on attacks. It's a war game there is suppose to be losses yet the only losses you ever hear of anymore is when someone crashes due to oversleeping.
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 15:41   #52
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Perhaps you'd appreciate my opinion more if you related it to the correct stats, where most of those issues have been resolved.

Pulsar's 222 D/C against Pegasus's 547 A/C, along with Peg's insane 505 D/C, is completely over the top. I don't like Xan Fi rounds either, but you might as well remove them at this rate.
I agree with this.
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 16:21   #53
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

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Originally Posted by Papadoc View Post
Its running at lower efficiencies than the previous rounds to the tune of 20-30% lower atm
With CO only having to freeze 2 classes it makes it quite a bit easier for Cath Co. Since it can shoot at all defenders with T1. Basically means theres no 'easy' way to defend.
Teamed up with the crazy strong ETD CO, i can imagine Bcalcs dont look pretty. Only Xan Fi has init advantage over them, but they have crappy Emp resistance and crappy damage. And looks like all FR just loses vs Co.
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 17:22   #54
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Pretty much what happened when I put them in a calc. Not to mention co fleets can easily adjust their beetle/viper ratio throughout the round. As I dont expect to see many fi fleets, they'll probably have a 1:1 ratio making fr also near useless vs it.
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 17:32   #55
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Raised xan fi damage and e/r


Lowered cath co eff


Let me know how it looks now

Edit, Also lowered peg armor and dmg
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 17:44   #56
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Will run some calcs. While we're on the subject of Xan Fi, will you be switching around fleet names? Seems bizarre to me to see banshee as an etd fr pod!
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 17:52   #57
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Changes seem good in terms of Xan fi. Maybe reduce vsharrak damage by 1? Owing to faking possiblities, but in general its good. Think you'll see a lot more fr/de too with these changes
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 18:10   #58
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

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Originally Posted by Krypton View Post
Will run some calcs. While we're on the subject of Xan Fi, will you be switching around fleet names? Seems bizarre to me to see banshee as an etd fr pod!
Yes, ill make sure the ship names are proper
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 19:11   #59
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Chimera's damage seems very high at the moment. Also, considering Bs has no EMP vs Cr, you might want to make the Dragon fire first.
Inforza's damage seems a little high.

Xan Fi looks better now.
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Unread 31 Jul 2014, 19:35   #60
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Changed dragon to init 6

lowered chimera dmg

raised inforza ship cost

Changed centaur target to t1 BS init 6

changed lancer init to 8
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Last edited by Papadoc; 31 Jul 2014 at 20:24.
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 11:31   #61
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

This stats are racist. Etd doesnt deserve to kill structures or what?
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 12:30   #62
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

They traded their structure killer in for a 3rd pod class...
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 15:56   #63
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Ter De: Stopped by every race.

Ter Bs: Stopped by no race. Uhhhhh.


Cat Co: Only 2 classes to worry about here, but unlike for Xan Fi, it makes little difference here. 4 ships for full coverage.

Cat Cr: Good.


Xan Fi: The lack of a third class to target makes this interesting, at least. Xan Fi has real trouble defending against everything except Co and De, so this is a clear XP-oriented setup.

Xan Fr: Whereas this fleet is just bad, fighting Ter De for the honour of being the worst in the universe.


Zik De: There is not much point to the Cutter being a kill ship. All Fi fires before or at the same time as it, and stealing Fi would actually be really nice. Beyond that, this fleet is mediocre at best.

Zik Bs: Stealing Cr is terrible, and the kill ship is not much better. Not really sure how to fix Zik.


Etd Co: Looks good. Perhaps a little on the strong side, but not overpowered. Good teaming option with Cat Co too.

Etd Fr: Aaand this is bad again. Nothing good to team up with, and everything out-inits it.

Etd Cr: Interesting. Beats De, beaten by Bs. Fr is largely irrelevant, so high ratio of Chimera will be good. Good teamup partner too. This fleet is essentially what they should all have been like.


These stats are far from finished. Fr and De are terrible, and Ter Bs is far too strong. Give Ter De better inits, and give at least 2 races something to really crush Ter Bs. Lancer must be one of them. Co and Cr looks alright, though I dislike that Cat and Etd can teamup with both. Zik's effs make up for some of its downsides, but I'd still prefer lower effs and better inits on the kill ships, and more sensible classes for them to shoot at. Also, at least 1 Zik fleet needs to be able to team up with an EMP fleet. Perhaps switch Zik Cr and Etd Bs? I'm surprised at the lack of Etd EMP ships as well. The Dealer would be my first choice, and it would have to be good enough to counter some of the strength of Cr and Bs. Mind you, these are just the most glaring issues, they need work beyond that.

At this point I don't feel any of the 3 sets is ready to play with. I would've said that was the reason Appoco hasn't picked a set yet, if I didn't suspect (read: "wasn't nearly certain") that Appoco just hasn't gotten around to it yet. With round start a week away, we should start looking into a set to reuse. Preferably not one that's too old, or it'd cost just as much time rebalancing it as fixing any of these 3 sets would.
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 17:08   #64
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

I really want to see a stat that u cant point out lot of errors.
3 stats its a lot to choice. I like them all. And we just need to choice one and work a little more in it. This have to be a little more quick.
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 17:20   #65
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

I moved zik de to fr and xan fr to de.

along with adding emp to etd, raising the pulsar init and loweing the peg init
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 18:24   #66
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Like the changes now zik has attack options and xan isnt massively op.

I would say change init on EITHER cutlass or corsair.

Now i would say the cr/bs is too weak with lancer and thief both shooting 1st.

Also whats with xan having 6 ships cath having 8 ships zik having 7 ships Etd having 8 ships Terran having 7 ships is it possible to make them all the same?
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 18:33   #67
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

These changes seem somewhat cocked up if you ask me..."fix" one issue while breaking another.

Also you forgot to change Xan's FR pod to DE and do something with the DE SK unless that is (lol) intentional.
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 19:45   #68
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

I'm still working on them.

Cochese, i forgot to change the pods.

Tia, i know about the ship numbers, Ive added a ship to xan. It's not possible to make them all the same without adding ships for the sake of adding them
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 19:49   #69
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Also whats with xan having 6 ships cath having 8 ships zik having 7 ships Etd having 8 ships Terran having 7 ships is it possible to make them all the same?
Each race having the same number of ships is not really that important, but what ships would you remove or add?
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 20:20   #70
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Papadoc made these changes:

Syren lost its T2 De. Harpy gained a T2 De and a small D/C buff, giving Ter that much desired ally def ship. Wyvern D/C up.

Pulsar back to init 4, same as Pegasus. D/C a little down.

Scarab split into 2. Mantis is an EMP anti-Co ship with same init as Viper and Scarab is now a normal anti-Cr ship.

Lancer split into 2. Lancer is now an anti-Bs ship and the Ghost is an anti-Cr ship with init 5. Xan De D/C increased by slightly under 30% to compensate for requiring you to build an extra ship.

Pillager D/C up.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 21:48   #71
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Three post streak!

Also, Appoco just told me this will be the set for r58.
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 22:23   #72
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Streak ends at 3.

Hopefully not finalized, but down to a few "tweaks" and no major changes?
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 22:36   #73
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Three post streak!

Also, Appoco just told me this will be the set for r58.
Well WORK WORK WORK on fixing this please.

BS needs to be stronger, Wyv init 4, or make zik BS have a init 4 kill ship.
or lower thief A/C and D/C,
If not BS is forced all round to attack with cath cr for any chanse to land.
Cr is all cath, ETD CR lands NO RACE.

So basicly hulls 3 is just shit all over except for cath.

As for De class, i would swap init on lancer and bolt thrower, make pegasus init 7, and also put pulsar back to 5 or 6.

Fr, Mantis init 1, ranger init 2 imo. besides that if Bs gets stronger then this is fine.

Co lower viper e/r slightly, make cutlass either init 19 or 21.

Fi - would like to see a pulsar and vshraak D/C increasement, as i think it looks pretty silly with a xan ship below 400 d/c when all Ter ships are above.
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 22:52   #74
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Wow xan is still SUPER strong, what about making either lancer or ghost not cloaked.

For the love of god change the Cath sk unless you intend on giving cath 3 attack fleets, and now Cath has 9 ships you went the wrong way. You'd be better of removing all the cat FR and then cath would be fine. They have a high init kill ship vs cr (themselves) and they still have weakness to Co with spider being init 3.

Ter Bs is a bit gimped now with 2 ships fire before it and a 3rd that fires at the same time all of which are eta -1. Also Ter De has very limited targets to attack given that every single cr/bs fleet fires BEFORE it, http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=26ys0g4jbkcmptl Even
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=mmhblbag9k0cc53
Terran armor Especially on the Hydra should be +20% and damage + 10% To compensate for the fact it fires last.

Etd looks solid to me, co weak vs xan fi, CAN attack into zik Fr but later round the fr will have more value to play with and will require team up. Ter Fi does quite Well but w/o def etd would be able to land terrans easy and with team up they land quite well. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=axw93j2bk5460x3

Etd Fr seems to me like thier weakest but thats fine its a support class to zik Fr and works well in def. I do want to note that you go over and make sure the your etd ships have the proper cost ratios, dealer costs more C than M and its not emp anymore... Just a heads up.


Also make sure you change either cutlass or Corsair init but they shouldnt be the same.
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 23:09   #75
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

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Well WORK WORK WORK on fixing this please.
Just to avoid confusion, what with my recent posts here: I made some suggestions earlier today, but they are still very much Papadoc's stats. Direct all of your suggestions at him, not me. :P
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Unread 1 Aug 2014, 23:09   #76
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Thanks for the input!

I do need to go over etd ship cost since I've swapped things.

I am interested in BS being stronger and i will try some of these suggestions and see how they change things
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 00:00   #77
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Ok

Lowered Wyvern init to 4

Changed Cath Sk to BS class

revised etd ship costs

Ranger: Added a gun
Dealer: Increased damage

Raised pulsar back to init 5 and raised armor and damage to compensate firing later

Currently still looking at the other stuff
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 00:21   #78
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Ter now has 2 decent defense ships (need to check centaur vs ranger).
Don't see the need of Mantis, spider could have init 2 and would do pretty much the same has mantis, and at lower eta.
Cath 2 CR killers? Keep only Avenger, has same eta as CR and better init.
Xan DE seems much worse now, needing 4 ships to attack.
Zik is able to steal everything, including DE, which are mostly useless for zik, and can't steal BS?
Even etd can steal to one of their attack fleet, CR, making a better attack fleet, if they able to steal cath CR.
Thing is, i don't see any way of giving that to Zik unless giving a DE or a CR BS-stealer.
Etd seems good overall, although phoenix is a bit nerfed, imo.

Overall, nice set of stats, nice work. Seems pretty balanced .
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 00:50   #79
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Lince,

Im considering giving zik a CR class t1 bs steal ship.

A De class ship that steals BS isnt out of the question either, zik would fire on it first at that point

But I havent justified it yet
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 03:22   #80
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

The pulsar cost efficience in stat analysis makes it look so bad, u need to improve this ship... Imo
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 06:08   #81
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

lots of changes tonight...

Swapped Etd CR to BS, i suppose it makes it more traditional now.

Swapped Zik BS to CR, I tried to reinvent the wheel and I've learned why so many others before me always had this combination as well as etd teamed with terran



Most of the other changes were associated with trying to make bs/cr more viable.
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 07:04   #82
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

that makes BS less viable
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 07:57   #83
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

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The pulsar cost efficience in stat analysis makes it look so bad, u need to improve this ship... Imo
They need to be to account for faking IMO
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 08:44   #84
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Will look at this today and give proper feedback.
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 09:46   #85
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

First let me say there's a lot I like about these stats.

Some of my initial thoughts;

Xan looks too good defensively, primarily just open to xan fi, cat co/cr and etd bs.

I really dislike the peacekeeper. I would probably remove its T2 to make Ter DE more viable. It still has its use as a good anti Etd FR
At the same time, change the init of the Dealer to 7.


I'll take a look at effs later today.
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 09:59   #86
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

I am a bit warry that emp effs are as low as they are.
Beetle Avg emp 137%
Viper Avg Emp 132%
Mantis Avg emp 118%
Defender Avg Emp 141% (including the 231% vs sk)
Roach Avg Emp 169%
Tara T1 Avg emp 147%

That is really bad, there are normal and steal ships that have better effs than some of those ships.
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 10:01   #87
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Mantis emp eff looks way too low, why on gods green earth would anyone build Mantis over spider.

Scarab eff also looks too low

Rogue effs looks too low

Phoenix could probably get a damage bump
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 10:03   #88
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

I think the only emp ships that is definitively too low is the mantis. The spider might be too good?
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 10:16   #89
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Spider T1 is still at 139% Avg emp. I actually think its fine, the beetle need a bout a 10% cost decrease same with the viper 130% for an attack fleet is STUPID it will never be able to attack anything. In order for Emp to attack they need to be around 150-160% with some specific ships being higher and some being lower.
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 10:26   #90
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Thats in a regular round. ST rounds are different, and every ship has lower eff than it has during a regular MT round.
This being said, a small increase on the beet/viper might be in order
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 10:44   #91
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

The peacekeeper was an issue, my current concern is the xan build being 6 ships compared to everyone else.

Is it viable this way?

Reduced cost of beetle

Raised xan fi e/r

Lowered harpy and corsair e/r -1

Added a gun to mantis, brought eff up a bit
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 10:45   #92
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

I wanna propose making the Wyvern T1= FR T2 = DE and
making the Dragon T1 = CR
This would make Terran a bit less "meh" and give xan another hole defensively. DO remember that the BS fleet can still be stopped by Clippers*.

*Maybe CLippers would have to be T1=BS T2 = DE?
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 10:46   #93
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

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Originally Posted by Papadoc View Post
The peacekeeper was an issue, my current concern is the xan build being 6 ships compared to everyone else.

Is it viable this way?
Xans will build bansh regardless. I think it's fine the way I propose it. They build only one ships outside of att fleet.
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 11:01   #94
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I wanna propose making the Wyvern T1= FR T2 = DE and
making the Dragon T1 = CR
This would make Terran a bit less "meh" and give xan another hole defensively. DO remember that the BS fleet can still be stopped by Clippers*.

*Maybe CLippers would have to be T1=BS T2 = DE?

I tried this a few hours ago and it was hard to balance, it led to the etd CR>BS change. Ill try it again now though

Edit: Change made to terran bs and zik CR

Bumped up rogue eff

Edit: The viper change was on my list, Reduced cost about 10%. Its much less underpowered now
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 11:04   #95
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

My bad, the wyvern and the Guardian has to target the same ships T1 and T2. So either both ships are FR/DE or both are DE/FR, if not they are too powerful indeed.

If you also make the clipper T1 = Bs and T2 = DE that could be really good. If they look too strong, then reduce wyvern dmg a tad.
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 11:10   #96
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Ive made the change to BS, Still testing but it looks like DE is really weakened by this
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 11:13   #97
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

Well if you also removed th PK T2= DE then the only change is that xan de cant hit ter(which they probably wouldn't be able to regardless), while Ter DE can now hit Xan. So overall DE teamups loses one targ, but gains another.

If you are worried about DE being too weak(I don't disagree), then make WYV and Guard T1 = FR and T2 = DE
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 12:22   #98
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Well if you also removed th PK T2= DE then the only change is that xan de cant hit ter(which they probably wouldn't be able to regardless), while Ter DE can now hit Xan. So overall DE teamups loses one targ, but gains another.

If you are worried about DE being too weak(I don't disagree), then make WYV and Guard T1 = FR and T2 = DE
maybe remove wyv t2 and add it back to dragon?
seriously removing t2 from pk is just lame... specially when no GOOD xan in this game would go hulls 3 as it currently is, in the first place.
so doesn't really change anything.

And yes Papadoc i agree :-p (Kinda upset that Ter has init advantage again, into both xan roidclasses and on top of that xan needs pegasus to roid with de)

Edit: If anything should had been done to peacekeeper, it should be to give it clipper's role if anything imo.
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Unread 2 Aug 2014, 13:22   #99
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

No way, that woulda have made xan too good again. Zik needs some good killships to be worth playing.
I think Xan are alright now. The FI fleet is very strong, and the de fleet is very solid defensively(despite the shit inits) and can also attack a few races.
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Unread 3 Aug 2014, 01:07   #100
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Re: R58 Papadoc Stats discussion

The EMP eff/res surely cant be even Close to fninished?
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