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Unread 3 Oct 2013, 22:03   #1
Patrikc
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R54 stats are up!

Stats can be found on the Beta server.


Please note that everything is tentative. The only things you should be looking at for now are Class, Targeting, Type and Initiative - and even these I may have overlooked.

What you will find is a lot of 0 loss def - however all of it can be patched by teaming up with your 'classmate'. This leaves us with a lot of solo options that are covered by one or two fleets, but also gives you plenty of opportunity to team up and force the target to get multiple fleets... if they want to get covered at all!

To add to that, Armour will be slightly higher than normal (think 5-10%) to make it easier to land roids for a few losses early on. Edit: Last note - galaxies will most likely be smaller than this round, which makes 0 loss def not as strong as it would be currently.

Fire away!

Last edited by Patrikc; 3 Oct 2013 at 22:09.
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Unread 3 Oct 2013, 22:37   #2
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Re: R54 stats are up!

I wish you'd stop editing them under my nose. I'll check tomorrow if I cba.
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Unread 3 Oct 2013, 22:38   #3
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Sorry - only did some fixes that people pointed out to me.
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Unread 4 Oct 2013, 02:38   #4
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Id actualy give u an Wild idea, what about making the structure killers 10% as effective as they are this round, and let them be the same class at the biggest pods of each race?

I dont like that cat got two anti BS, one of em being zero loss to ter BS.
Id rather see a FI wich is zero loss to xan FI.
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Unread 4 Oct 2013, 03:44   #5
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Re: R54 stats are up!

I was thinking of a Fi anti-Fi, but I'd definitely not give it to Cath - I'd probably let Harpy target Fi t2.
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Unread 4 Oct 2013, 06:09   #6
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Re: R54 stats are up!

thief and recluse free hit xan fi... only issue i saw from 1 min of looking
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Unread 4 Oct 2013, 09:59   #7
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Correct - I'll make sure Cutlass/Thief don't valuesteal Xan Fi (too much).
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Unread 4 Oct 2013, 11:36   #8
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Re: R54 stats are up!

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
I was thinking of a Fi anti-Fi, but I'd definitely not give it to Cath - I'd probably let Harpy target Fi t2.
Why not?
Im not sure if people will actualy build the Spider, the more efficient EMP beet would be too tempting imho.
IIRC we had this type of ship r48, and there were not that many who built it.
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Unread 4 Oct 2013, 13:14   #9
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Fr seem to get free hits on etd bs too. Tbh I like areas of these stats but Fr seems very disjointed from the rest. Oh and with Xan fi that playable I can only see one choice tbh
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Unread 4 Oct 2013, 18:01   #10
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Re: R54 stats are up!

If there are going to be 0 loss defence options try and keep it emp as much as possible.
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Unread 4 Oct 2013, 18:06   #11
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
If there are going to be 0 loss defence options try and keep it emp as much as possible.
Or keep in ineffective and not in attacking class ships as a minimum
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Unread 4 Oct 2013, 23:03   #12
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Re: R54 stats are up!

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
If there are going to be 0 loss defence options try and keep it emp as much as possible.
Agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitcher
Or keep in ineffective and not in attacking class ships as a minimum
Agreed to an extent, ineffective is not really relevant as inaffective or not, if you cant land someone 'clean' then there is an issue. And attacking class has nothing to do with it, its the defence ships that are the issue.
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Unread 4 Oct 2013, 23:57   #13
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Re: R54 stats are up!

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Agreed to an extent, ineffective is not really relevant as inaffective or not, if you cant land someone 'clean' then there is an issue. And attacking class has nothing to do with it, its the defence ships that are the issue.
Ofc it has something to do with it, class and efficency is the reason for building certain ship.
Making a zero loss def ship both efficient and usefull in attack is asking for a very very defensive set of stats.
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 02:32   #14
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Re: R54 stats are up!

I don't see how 0 loss def ships are any worse than a number of ships this round or any round for that matter. Examples being Pegasus, Ghost, Brigand, Tycoon. All of these ships are good on attacks and amazing on defense. Yeah, they're not 0 loss def. Do you think a Xan Fi cares about firing back after they get obliterated by Ghost? Is there any sane Xan that would lane his Fr on Pegs just so he can do a bit of damage afterwards?

That's not to say it is pointless to build them - when teamed up, let's take Xan/Zik Fr for example, De will have slightly harder time if Bombers are present than if not, but I feel that difference is negligible compared to 0 loss def.

An important thing to mention is that recent salvage changes have made gains from these much, much smaller than before - and as I've said before I will make sure any 0-loss valuesteals will be minimal.
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 07:38   #15
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Re: R54 stats are up!

0 loss defense needs to do damage in proportion to the attackers' potential gain. Normal defense needs to do damage in proportion to the attackers' fleet size. In the late round, when the ratio of value : roids is high, the difference between making the land unprofitable with 0 loss defense and normal defense is an order of magnitude.

These stats should have no 0 loss defense against Xan Fi and Cat Co, because they do not have any teamups to counter it. 0 loss stealing is a mortal sin, regardless of whether it gains value. I also don't like 0 loss defense against the other fleets, but at least there teamups are available, making it at least somewhat acceptable.
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 07:43   #16
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
0 loss defense needs to do damage in proportion to the attackers' potential gain. Normal defense needs to do damage in proportion to the attackers' fleet size. In the late round, when the ratio of value : roids is high, the difference between making the land unprofitable with 0 loss defense and normal defense is an order of magnitude.

These stats should have no 0 loss defense against Xan Fi and Cat Co, because they do not have any teamups to counter it. 0 loss stealing is a mortal sin, regardless of whether it gains value. I also don't like 0 loss defense against the other fleets, but at least there teamups are available, making it at least somewhat acceptable.

Completely agreed. Its about teamups mainly, i have no issue if 1 half of a teamup has 0 def loss against it but when its a whole team like said it screws things over. Currently a zik has to build a small portion of Theives and he gets no Fi incs all round. That is wrong.
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 09:06   #17
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Tycoon owns the shit out of De teamups. Make it so that the ship that covers a teamup partner's holes is at least good.

Mantis is too good against Bs, because there's always Cr flak. Wyvern is a good example of a good hole-covering ship.

You've worked yourself into a corner with the Fr and Bs fleets. On the one hand, the Etd Bs fleet has a Fr hole (Brigand), so the Wyvern needs to be strong. On the other hand, the Etd Fr fleet has a Bs hole (Wyvern), so the Brigand needs to be strong. These are conflicting goals. Get rid of this 2-way hole. All holes must be one way.

Thief and Recluse are both 0 loss against Fi, as said above.

Ter De, Cat Co and Zik Fr lack 0 loss ships against them.


There's something more fundamentally wrong with these stats, though. Ideally, 0 loss defense would be too slow for ally defense, limiting the number of fleets slots that can potentially have 0 loss defense in them, and reducing their impact. This means some Cr/Bs as 0 loss against Fr/De and some Fr/De 0 loss against Fi/Co.

However, fleets without teamup partners cannot have 0 loss defense against them. This means that 50% of the 'acceptable' 0 loss defense is actually unacceptable in your stats.

If you're set on keeping 0 loss defense in your stats, I'd suggest making the Cr/Bs fleets the ones without teamups, and moving the 0 loss anti-Fi/Co to Fr/De, and the 0 loss anti-Fr/De to Cr/Bs. I'd suggest Etd Bs -> Fi and Zik Cr -> Co. The lack of 0 loss defense against it would provide an incentive for going Cr/Bs for a change.

(Yes, I know that's a complete overhaul. Sorry )
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 09:43   #18
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Why are you sorry? If they aren't good enough then they aren't good enough. Simple. I would expect better from Patrikc. We have ages to go yet, back to the drawing board and rethink. As mz said there is quite a few 'loops' that don't sit right and I don't think it's a case of tweaking, overhaul is the way
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 10:56   #19
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Re: R54 stats are up!

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Why are you sorry? If they aren't good enough then they aren't good enough. Simple. I would expect better from Patrikc. We have ages to go yet, back to the drawing board and rethink. As mz said there is quite a few 'loops' that don't sit right and I don't think it's a case of tweaking, overhaul is the way
I agree, Mz should definitely not be sorry - I'd rather hear the truth, and rather from someone who can properly articulate them and provide arguments than the random "I don't like X" I've been getting a lot, without any reasoning why. I am always open to criticism and so far it does not look good for this iteration of stats. There's no need to be disappointed in me though, Kai! This set came about from a different approach than my normal drafting, because I/we have a fair amount of time to perfect (or rewrite) it, and while I like them myself I have no issue with ditching them and beginning anew.

I'll look into your posts in more detail tomorrow. I think both of you make some good points, though I don't agree with all of it I appreciate you taking the time for it. I've always preferred an open line of communication and transparency about stats.

Question for you guys: do you think this round's stats are good enough to be tweaked? Specifically, is there a way to fix Etd?
Is there any other round with offensive stats (mostly ST) that comes to mind?
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 11:11   #20
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Re: R54 stats are up!

I've suggested 2-3 old sets of stats to re-use numerous times, cba go back and dig up which rounds it was.
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 11:14   #21
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Re: R54 stats are up!

There have been calls to just remove Etd altogether, but that really doesn't solve the underlying problem.

The issue we're having is that with 6 classes, and 5 races with 2 pods each, you can't divide the pods equally between them. There's always 2 classes with only 1 attack fleet in them. With 4 races, you have the exact same problem except now there's 2 classes with 2 attack fleets in them.

6 races would work, but considering that we can't even come up with a theme for Etd, adding yet another race is a bad idea. Hell, even Ter's theme is just that they have no theme.

An alternative would be to get rid of the rigid split of ship types between the races. Cat/Emp, Xan/Cloak and Zik/Steal makes for very clear differences between the races, but there is no need to be so blatant about it.

Yet another alternative would be to agree with the people suggesting we remove Etd... but to then remove a second race as well. 3 races, 6 pods, 6 classes. Or to remove a class. Or to remove a race and add 2 classes. The possibilities are endless.


That doesn't really help you much, though, because you're likely stuck with the setup we have now. Quite frankly I don't really understand why it's always Etd that's the problematic race. It could just as easily be any of the others.
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Unread 5 Oct 2013, 11:29   #22
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Hmm... Maybe using etd as the filler race it can be is a better idea? Etd can be anything you want it to be. That is the beauty of it, people just seem hellbent on using it as a lite version of cat.
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Unread 6 Oct 2013, 10:34   #23
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Re: R54 stats are up!

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Hmm... Maybe using etd as the filler race it can be is a better idea? Etd can be anything you want it to be. That is the beauty of it, people just seem hellbent on using it as a lite version of cat.
Imho id encourage making stats without a ETD, to force PA crew to get rid of it.
I think it is useless as a race, either its overpowered, or its underpowered as a solo race.
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Unread 7 Oct 2013, 23:38   #24
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Going to address some of your points here Mz; not because I think you're wrong and I'm right, but just to show what I intended with these things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Tycoon owns the shit out of De teamups. Make it so that the ship that covers a teamup partner's holes is at least good.
De is meant to be able to team up with Fr - in some cases it needs to. That's where the Defender comes in. I'm not sure how efficient it'd be, but Etd Fr/De's EMP was meant to support De.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Mantis is too good against Bs, because there's always Cr flak. Wyvern is a good example of a good hole-covering ship.
But by saying "there's always Cr flak" that also means that Dragons get to fire. Mantis is very good vs Etd Bs, yes, but once Ter mixes in you'd still need a significant amount of Cr+Mantis to make it in your favour - it's not meant to be a 0-loss ship. Its damage would have been on the low side (250-300 ish).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
You've worked yourself into a corner with the Fr and Bs fleets. On the one hand, the Etd Bs fleet has a Fr hole (Brigand), so the Wyvern needs to be strong. On the other hand, the Etd Fr fleet has a Bs hole (Wyvern), so the Brigand needs to be strong. These are conflicting goals. Get rid of this 2-way hole. All holes must be one way.
I agree, and have played around with this issue before but have not found a suitable solution. Defender was supposed to help vs Bs, but that's far from an ideal interaction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Thief and Recluse are both 0 loss against Fi, as said above.
Combined, yes, but Sentinel stops Zik Fr and Harpy+Corsair will be stronger than the Thief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Ter De, Cat Co and Zik Fr lack 0 loss ships against them.
Ter De has Pulsar, Wyvern, Spectre and Tycoon shooting before it. Cat Co has to deal with Phoenix/Lancer, and Zik Fr has Harpy/Sentinel/Wyvern to stop it. Not every fleet has to have 0-loss def against it in order for stats to be balanced.

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There's something more fundamentally wrong with these stats, though. Ideally, 0 loss defense would be too slow for ally defense, limiting the number of fleets slots that can potentially have 0 loss defense in them, and reducing their impact. This means some Cr/Bs as 0 loss against Fr/De and some Fr/De 0 loss against Fi/Co.

However, fleets without teamup partners cannot have 0 loss defense against them. This means that 50% of the 'acceptable' 0 loss defense is actually unacceptable in your stats.
I just don't share your view on 0-loss def. Stats are a rock-paper-scissors system, even when there isn't 0-loss def mono-type (ie only Ter De) attacks will always be stopped by one or two fleets. It'd even be bad design to have one race be able to muscle through everything, so what's the problem if you need teamups to land vs def, as long as you're still able to solo without defense being present?

Also, in the event of getting rid of ETA differences between meta classes, and everything being able to make alliance ETA defense, could you see 0-loss def as something that could work?
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Unread 8 Oct 2013, 07:36   #25
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Ok so I'll be honest that I'm reading pats reply after doing a night feed so I might have skimmed it a little but here goes.

Mz is right about 0 loss def, it doesn't matter wether you agree with him or not. If the thing it targets doesn't target it then it's a wholly unfair battle. Same goes with ships that int first are vastly more powerful (see the ghost this round which means xan is immune to fi all round).

By having some fleets with 0 loss and some without you are forcing peoples hands as to how they should play and as what. That is not how the stats should be. A proper set should make that every fleet is strong against something and weak against another. You mentioned Rock Paper Scissors and that is true but not how you have done it. For example Terran should have a strong BS fleet but it should a big hole vs lighter ships, it should need to be covered by another race or lots of other terrans, and I mean lots, the same should apply in reverse to Xan, why people are so insistent on giving Xan seige ships is beyond me.

Giving 4 races 2 roiding fleets gives you 8 attack fleets but you need a multiple of 3 for Rock Paper Scissors to work. So you give Zik the ability to steal pods of the hull they don't have them for. Now you think we don't need Etd but if you give them 3 (or the ability to get 3) then it's still workable. Etd is a compliment race. It doesn't matter if you end up with 3 Fr fleets or 3 Co fleets the idea of Etd is that they add something not that they are the best thing possible. They have supposedly traded for thier tech so it should not be as good as the main races. No steal ship should int before zik, no emp ship should int before cat, no cloak ship should int before xan, that is how you make them, able to hold there own or add another option but not stand alone as the dominant race of thier class.
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Unread 8 Oct 2013, 10:20   #26
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Re: R54 stats are up!

3 is not a magic number for RPS. RPS revolves around winning against 1 opponent, tieing against another, and losing to a third. But that split of 1/1/1 is not fixed in stone (or in rock, if you'll forgive the pun), and indeed, if you want to have more offensive stats, a W/T/L of 2/1/1 (4 races), 3/0/2 (5 races) or 3/1/2 (6 races) will work better.

However, it is worth noting that RPS is incredibly crude. My r50 stats were very RPS-like, which made them simple but boring. RPS makes fleet compositions much less important. If Xan can roid Ter whatever Ter makes, then you no longer need to even look at unit scans to be able to attack. Just launch at the fattest Ter you can find.

Personally, I've come to prefer a setup in which each race has at least 2 radically different fleet compositions, and preferably 3. My choice of race should not be the sole factor in deciding against which fleets I'm strong and against which I'm weak. In such a setup, overly RPS-like stats are actually detrimental. If Ter can build 1 ship to stop all incs from FI fleets, then I always need to have that ship, and will therefore have fewer valid choices.
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Unread 8 Oct 2013, 11:01   #27
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Kai, I invite you to design stats where I cannot pinpoint within 10 minutes which ships stop which fleets, without one race being overpowered.

It doesn't matter if a ship is 'vastly more powerful', like the Ghost vs Fi. The Brigand is a fair bit weaker than the Pegasus, yet it will stop any solo Ter De fleet dead in its tracks. It's the nature of the game, and while 0-loss defense is the worst offender, I don't think there is another way to create stats that will not have this problem.


As for your points, Mz, the issue these days is that people (myself included) want stats to be mostly Single Targeting, and that forces stats to be very simple and straightforward as there are few choices to be made. If you go Xan, then you'll be building xyz, and you may be able to choose between ship a and ship b, but more than likely not, depending on the Universe's race distribution.
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Unread 8 Oct 2013, 11:13   #28
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Re: R54 stats are up!

there doesn't seem to be much scope to fake non xan races like ter faking de as bs I.E. 1 bs/cr + de = bs count.
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Unread 8 Oct 2013, 11:39   #29
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Ok Patrikc, i was actually going to put in a set of stats for rd 55 anyway, so ill start work on them in the coming weeks. My stats will try and encompass the races as they are intended to be, not just by using a simple rock paper scissors method though. They will be based around the ideals of each race, with each bringing a little bit to the bigger table. So that ultimately you cannot just pick 1-2 races and 1 class and swamp people with it.
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Unread 8 Oct 2013, 13:38   #30
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Rather than giving zik the ships and not the pods. Why not give them pods and let them steal the ships?

just a thought

Can we have resource stealers again please? Give them to ETD, I think ETD should be utility race that is wanted for versatility and still bring something unique to the table. We all know the nature of each race.

Terran- High Armor- can land when most people cant- High Emp Res- avg dmg

Cath- Very efficient EMP, Can attack bigger planets with smaller fleets. No dmg

Xan- Fast- High dmg- Cloaked- low Emp Res

Zik- Stealers- Very defense oriented- Utility- 2nd best armour- Fires last, above avg damage, Unlimited fleet options

Etd- One ship of everything usually emp and cloak with 1-2 stealers that dont steal into anything that they can use.


I think ETD could use something unique.
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Unread 12 Oct 2013, 19:19   #31
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Re: R54 stats are up!

The principle of encouraging teamups is one with which I'm uncomfortable. If we accept that bottom-feeding and the crushing of smaller players are "bad things" doesn't it follow that we should encourage solo attacking (or at least not handicap it)?
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Unread 12 Oct 2013, 19:23   #32
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Re: R54 stats are up!

A quick observation on a point Butcher made. For heaven's sake don't give any credence to the idea of making SKs the same class(es) as the pods of each race. There may be a place for SKs in a war game but they should require some effort to be deployed successfully rather than just being a part of every attacking fleet.

(Unless we make the game playable without building any structures at all - or maybe work out some method of making structures invulnerable).
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Unread 12 Oct 2013, 20:51   #33
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Re: R54 stats are up!

It would be acceptable if there were some kind of tradeoff between capping roids and destroying buildings. However, as long as sending SKs is just something you can do on top of max capping, SKs in roiding classes is a big no-no.
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Unread 13 Oct 2013, 03:19   #34
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Ok Patrikc, i was actually going to put in a set of stats for rd 55 anyway, so ill start work on them in the coming weeks. My stats will try and encompass the races as they are intended to be, not just by using a simple rock paper scissors method though. They will be based around the ideals of each race, with each bringing a little bit to the bigger table. So that ultimately you cannot just pick 1-2 races and 1 class and swamp people with it.
Now that would be nice to see. The stats I have seen since returning to the game have been truly dreadful, but if you achieve this, it would make for a far better round. Good luck!
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Unread 13 Oct 2013, 10:11   #35
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Sounds nice in theory, but I'll believe it when I see it.
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Unread 14 Oct 2013, 17:04   #36
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Thoughts on last round's stats? Top 100 was quite balanced, at 22/18/18/22/20.
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Unread 14 Oct 2013, 18:12   #37
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Those are a modified version of my r50 stats. I forget who modified them, but they seem to have done a decent enough job.
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Unread 14 Oct 2013, 18:22   #38
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Re: R54 stats are up!

I agree, and if I'm not mistaken they were decently offensive, too. For now I have my eye on that one to alter.
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Unread 14 Oct 2013, 19:01   #39
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Re: R54 stats are up!

What changes would you make?
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Unread 14 Oct 2013, 19:09   #40
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Re: R54 stats are up!

etd fr SK pal!
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Unread 14 Oct 2013, 19:14   #41
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Not 100% sure, but I seem to recall xan being a bit shit
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Unread 14 Oct 2013, 20:52   #42
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
A quick observation on a point Butcher made. For heaven's sake don't give any credence to the idea of making SKs the same class(es) as the pods of each race. There may be a place for SKs in a war game but they should require some effort to be deployed successfully rather than just being a part of every attacking fleet.

(Unless we make the game playable without building any structures at all - or maybe work out some method of making structures invulnerable).
If you make the SKs more expensive, like crazy expensive it would not be a problem With them being the same class.
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Unread 14 Oct 2013, 20:58   #43
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Re: R54 stats are up!

You misunderstand (the lack of) PA combat.
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Unread 14 Oct 2013, 23:16   #44
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Quote:
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You misunderstand (the lack of) PA combat.
Excuse me?
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Unread 14 Oct 2013, 23:48   #45
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Re: R54 stats are up!

He's talking about the fact that everyone is so concerned with value that you can go an entire round without a combat news report
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Unread 15 Oct 2013, 19:26   #46
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Quote:
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He's talking about the fact that everyone is so concerned with value that you can go an entire round without a combat news report
Yes i can understand that, but then i think we should move towards stats or a setup where it is some point crashing a little bit of value for the defenders to loose more value.
Making stats wich will benifit strong alliance play instead of planet play.
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Unread 15 Oct 2013, 20:07   #47
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Re: R54 stats are up!

It has nothing to do with the stats. You almost never have 1 enemy. If you lose 10% of your value to kill off 30% of the value of alliance B, then alliance C wins.
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Unread 15 Oct 2013, 21:32   #48
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
It has nothing to do with the stats. You almost never have 1 enemy. If you lose 10% of your value to kill off 30% of the value of alliance B, then alliance C wins.
It realy hasnt been like this for the last what, 4 rounds
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Unread 16 Oct 2013, 05:09   #49
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Re: R54 stats are up!

Round 52 was an exception, for reasons I've documented before. All of the other rounds you mention match my description.
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Unread 16 Oct 2013, 15:37   #50
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Re: R54 stats are up!

I have changed the stats to round 52's, with some initial alterations, and would like to refresh the discussion to this thread.

Thanks all for your input, I'd appreciate any feedback about the current draft in the new thread.
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