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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 04:44   #1
Nodrog
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Abstract Art

lol lines on a canvas

For quite some time I hated abstract/non-representational art, because I associated it primarily with pieces like the above (and this and this). But I've come to realise that this is unfair; while I still hold that 90% of abstract art is shit, I have to admit that 90% of acclaimed 'traditional' art is also shit. Regardless of how well painted it is, a picture of a bowl of fruit is still a bowl of fruit. Or a sunflower. And no matter how you want to slice it, an exquisitely painted haystack remains a painting of a haystack. The pleasure I find in representational art comes from seeing a concrete illustration of something I value (like this or this), and I would quite happily write off the whole enterprise of reproducing dull real-world objects as being fairly artistically bankrupt (although it may produce nice decorative pieces). When it comes to representation, I find content far more important than form.

My main problem with abstract art was that I believed it to be an enormous realisation of the fable about the emperor's new clothes. And in fairness, it probably is; I think that most proclaimed art lovers/critics would struggle to pass a double blind test that involved distinguishing new works of critically acclaimed art from paintings produced by college students. But the herd-mentality shown by many people associated with a field doesnt justify dismissing it outright. Rather than judging abstract art based on worst pieces, it makes more sense to judge it on its best, and I find beauty in this. And in this*. And this and this*. Like music, I struggle to explain what it is that makes me like these particular paintings - although I can come up with some justification for my feelings, I can easily find counterexamples (I claim to dislike this song because it is boring and does nothing new, yet I find this other verse/chorus/verse rock song to be brilliant. I dont like this piece of music because it is too minimalist, but here is another minimalist work that I love. And so on.).

I think my change of heart occurred largely because I forced myself to stop mentally comparing abstract art to traditional paintings; while I always liked some abstract pieces, there was a feeling inside me almost like guilt - it just seemed wrong to rate a piece that was essentially just pretty colours splattered on a canvas above a 'proper' work of art, which required the artist to dedicate his life to mastering the skills required to reproduce real-world objects accurately. But now I would say that the word 'art' itself is somewhat misleading, since classifying representational and non-representational paintings together makes them appear to have more in common than they actually do; I'd now say that they are completely seperate disciplines which have about as much in common as poetry and fiction-writing. In a sense, abstract paintings remind me more of music than they do of representational pieces - if someone wants to hold that non-representational lines and colours arranged in space are incapable of conveying emotion and beauty, then they should probably explain how non-representational sounds arranged in time manage to do it.

So, what are your thoughts on abstract painting? Can you find beauty here, or is it ultimately just lines and colours?



* These are fairly poor photos and the colours are a bit messed up, which is a pretty serious problem given that the colours are the whole point (I had to take the last photo myself with a mobile phone camera); the actual paintings are far nicer. But you can pretty much substitute anything from here or here.


edit: For reference, the paintings I linked to are (in order):

Mondrian - Composition With Two Lines
Rothko - White Over Red
Mondrian - Composition With Yellow Lines
Van Gogh - Sunflowers
Monet - one of his haystack pictures
Danielle Anjou - Yes (a sculpture rather than a painting, but shes probably my favourite living artist)
Nick Gaetano - Selfishness
Kandinsky - Composition VII
Matta - The Disasters of Mysticism
Kandinsky - Composition VIII
Kandinsky - Movement

Last edited by Nodrog; 8 Jul 2006 at 05:29.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 05:10   #2
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Re: Abstract Art

it doesnt even qualify as art to me.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 05:17   #3
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Re: Abstract Art

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Originally Posted by Phil^
it doesnt even qualify as art to me.
Why?


edit in response to below post: I was asking for a justification of your view, not an elaboration. Why do you define art as being paintings of things, and what is the motivation for doing so? What value do you find in paintings of things that you cannot get from arrangements of colour and shapes?

The shark in the preservative is more conceptual art than abstract, and is a whole different thread (although I agree that most of it shouldnt be classed as art). For the purpose of this thread I'm roughty limiting abstract art to paintings which do not depict identifiable objects.

Last edited by Nodrog; 8 Jul 2006 at 05:41.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 05:30   #4
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Re: Abstract Art

i consider art to be that of the classical form, paintings of things - not just painting random shapes.
same with things like sharks in preservative - that aint art to me.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 06:36   #5
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Re: Abstract Art

I love abstract art. I think shapes can exhibit so many deeply felt things. Big overwhelming shapes can feel powerful or intimidating, a lot of small lines and shapes can be complex and intricate. Big stripes of various colors can seem more beautiful and touching, or more disturbing and visceral than any 'photo-realistic' artwork. I love 3D scultupres with huge bent metal shapes that just tower over me, or I love cubes, I love reflective surfaces, I love elegance, I love simplicity, complexity, I don't know, I am a big fan of abstract art, and I think not being able to connect with the expression of any abstract art, not seeing any value in any of it is to me a sign of a rigid mind that's probably not very good at abstracting in general, or at least not experienced with it.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 06:42   #6
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Re: Abstract Art

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
i consider art to be that of the classical form, paintings of things - not just painting random shapes.
same with things like sharks in preservative - that aint art to me.
Art != technique. For an extreme example, those idiots that can make photorealistic replicas of in microsoft paint are just moronic in my opinion. There's nothing expressed there other than how mind numbingly ignorant and anal they are. All that effort and nothing worthwhile expressed. I see a lot of early, classical art, and I see what I love about them, I see the visceral abstract emotion trying to break free, but bound by the conventions and thoughts of that time. Now people can do whatever they want, they can express themselves in whatever ****ed up way they think of, and if they've got something to say and have the talent to bring that out, to be honest about how they feel about something, then that's art. It's not the shock value either, of course, it's the expression. There's plenty of shitty abstract art. And plenty of underrated abstract art too.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 07:45   #7
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Re: Abstract Art

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
So, what are your thoughts on abstract painting? Can you find beauty here, or is it ultimately just lines and colours?
You can find beauty in most things. I'm sure we've all seen a particularly interesting stone or leaf that for some reason seemed particularly fascinating or even awe-inspiring. That doesn't seem to be particularly far from an appreciation of "beauty" on some level. It's not uncommon to hear people describe something like a waterfall or the stars in the night sky as beautiful. So if these natural formations (which, to an extent are almost random) can be beautiful - why not "just" lines or colours? I guess fractal patterns are a good example of this too.

My only problem with abstract art is I'm not sure it actually communicates anything in some cases, or if it does I don't really understand how it does in a suitable fashion. To take a very crude example, you could draw a painting in a very "dark" fashion and broadly say it represented depression but anything beyond that and you get into things where abstract/high art generally is often ridiculed for "Oh this shows the artist's soul responding to the challenges of 21st bourgeois life with a hopeless display of counter-cultural...etc." It's like the worst excesses of Freudian literary criticism.

Similarly, my preferred musical choice usually has lyrics because although you can certainly convey emotion through musical arrangement I'm not sure it's as fully expressive as I really like. I guess it depends on what you want you're trying to communicate. Non-lyrical pieces can very well convey a roller coaster of emotions, or even rage / euphoria, but in most cases it's pretty ridiculous to imagine a purely instrumental song being categorised as an anti-war song, or a protest song about tax, or something like that. Not every song should be that specific of course.

Generally though, I'm not a major fan of any paintings or sculptures. I am sometimes however, over-awed at the skill that was obviously required to produce traditional art, and it's ridiculous to say skill by itself shouldn't be valued. Sometimes it's just impressive to watch a footballer show off stupid tricks in a game, or those videos where people complete a video game on ultra hard mode in 10 minutes without dying or whatever. Seeing someone display an awesome sense of accomplishment or skill is (to me) a good example of the human condition and "photo realistic" paintings or sculptures are a good example of that.

I think overall the one thing I don't like about the way art is handled socially is that too much emphasis is given to trying to make everyone accept that something is good or bad. Or some kind of intellectual elite is trying to establish their particular likes / dislikes as a universal. The amount of snobbery which exists is pretty overwhelming. If you quote Hamlet in an academic essay no-one would bat an eye-lid but if you quote The Simpsons (or even The Godfather) you would often be critised for lowering the tone or somesuch.

Perhaps people are just trying to maintain a single culture and if we let culture fragment too much then we'll find it increasingly difficult to understand each other. But I don't think that a single culture is an achievable goal, especially moving forward to the point where larger and larger numbers of people will produce their own content. I think part of that transformation will be a slight change in attitude about art. If you released a black metal album then you wouldn't mind that 95%+ of humanity would almost certainly never enjoy (or even value) your work, why should you care if most people don't value your painting? And not because they're phillistines but because it's just not their thing.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 09:23   #8
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Re: Abstract Art

i dislike the "traditional" representation/definition of art, i find art can be anything through creative use of a field at hand. maybe that's just an artistic use of a field; but then what's the difference? my views are pretty similar to dante with regards to abstract art. about your "a painting of a haystack/bowl of fruit is still a etc" - i also find art to be something that can truly be open to your own interpretation, when i first came across the monet for example, i found myself empathising with that haystack and let my imagination run wild. i presume you'll think it sounds pretty stupid as you're like that, but the first step in "appreciation" (which i've long suspected you have a real hard time doing) would be to try and look without preconceptions and so on, and only look in the context that the artist provides (not just for paintings by the way).

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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 10:54   #9
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Re: Abstract Art

I enjoy good abstract art, like the pieces Nod linked to. Damien Hirst's work isn't really my thing though.

The problem with abstract art is that you can't rate a piece like you can a piece of classical art. Classical art is an attempt to represent something in the real world on canvas (or via sculpture). Abstract art, however, involves far more of the artist's own views and emotions - and has to create the same in the viewer. You can only rate abstract art by the reaction it creates in yourself, and if you're close-minded then you will inevitably rate it poorly.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 14:43   #10
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Re: Abstract Art

I quite like abstract. Some of Kandinskys work i love whilst other bits i dont like that much. I cant really explain why. But then i liked looking at Dali because no matter how many times i looked at it id find something new or some new meaning to it.

Some abstract art is truly awful. (omg some lines) or (omg i splashed some paint) but some of it is really quite good.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 14:56   #11
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Re: Abstract Art

I used to work as a guard in the Boymans van Beuningen Museum in Rotterdam for two and a half years as a side job while studying. I guess I could call myself privileged to spend somany hours guarding Dali, Picasso, and Kandinsky.

You can walk past a painting, and walk past it again, but if you spend DAYS walking past them you will start loving them with all your soul.

I also visit museums a lot, the last I visited was the Prada in Madrid. They have everything from medieval ages (El Greco, Titian, and the likes) and it´s so damn dimensionless to me. It just is as interesting as watching someone´s holiday stills to me now.
Here in Malaga they have the Picasso Museum, wich I visit three times a year more or less. He was a genius, yet, I must say I like Dali more than say, Kandinsky.

Absurdism for me is the style I love most of all in modern art - better than pure Abstractionism. The good thing about absurdism is that it leaves less to interpretation than Abstract, in my opinion; you get a lot more of the directions an artist wants to take you, than mere ´what YOU see is what YOU get´ stuff - depicting more of the artists´ genius and humour. Magritte´s ´Ceci n´est pas un pipe´, wich I also had the priveledge of guarding a few years, may therefore be one of my favourite works of art.

*edit: I did not post links o works as I really believe a work should be seen in person and in the right size to convey any meaning in it.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 15:03   #12
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Re: Abstract Art

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
So, what are your thoughts on abstract painting? Can you find beauty here, or is it ultimately just lines and colours?

Ill ignore the fact you're asking to rate art according to the 'beauty' we find in it (you may as well tatoo philistine to your head and say kitsch is good). To me art in the broadest sense should be an allegorical representation of something. In the absence of meaningful thoughts or ideas behind it, it becomes artform or decorative. Nothing wrong with that, just that its distinct from 'art'. Im also not really sure what you mean by 'abstract' the context you're taking is foe the subject to be more recognisable, but impressionism for example was trying to do more than just 'make a copy' of what the artist saw.

Im not after 10th order bullshit explanations of how a particular work is so 'deep' it takes 10K words to explain, but the semblence of thought, something beyond this collection of stuff looks quite nice.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 16:06   #13
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Re: Abstract Art

I find that most comercial (decorative) art to be dreadfully boring, but I can find beauty in most works of art. Just stones sat in a pattern, or two cows painted for selling does not light my fire.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 16:11   #14
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Re: Abstract Art

I was delighted to learn the other day that a few areas of Dublin are going to get legal areas for graffiti.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 18:13   #15
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Re: Abstract Art

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Originally Posted by milo
Ill ignore the fact you're asking to rate art according to the 'beauty' we find in it (you may as well tatoo philistine to your head and say kitsch is good). To me art in the broadest sense should be an allegorical representation of something. In the absence of meaningful thoughts or ideas behind it, it becomes artform or decorative. Nothing wrong with that, just that its distinct from 'art'. Im also not really sure what you mean by 'abstract' the context you're taking is foe the subject to be more recognisable, but impressionism for example was trying to do more than just 'make a copy' of what the artist saw.

Im not after 10th order bullshit explanations of how a particular work is so 'deep' it takes 10K words to explain, but the semblence of thought, something beyond this collection of stuff looks quite nice.
Surely beauty is a measurement of the enjoyment which an observer gets from experiencing the art, at least to some extent. If you are saying that the only purpose of art is so that people who have studied it can indulge in wankery about how great it is and speak about it in terms laymen won't understand then I would strongly disagree. It would be ideal if something can be both appreciated by the layman and appreciated by the people who know what they are talking about (probably in utterly different ways). I'm sure this happens in many pieces of great art, be it abstract or not. It almost seems as if you're dismissing something as not art because it can be appreciated by people who can't understand it fully.

As far as abstract art goes generally, I like it a lot. I prefer it to representative art generally because it's generally prettier. This is most likely a consequence of not having any "rules" to follow and being able to concentrate on just making it pleasurable to the eye. I'm sure that a lot of abstract art is allegorically representative of something or other, but it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of it just because I don't know.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 18:21   #16
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Re: Abstract Art

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Originally Posted by Deepflow
Surely beauty is a measurement of the enjoyment which an observer gets from experiencing the art, at least to some extent. If you are saying that the only purpose of art is so that people who have studied it can indulge in wankery about how great it is and speak about it in terms laymen won't understand then I would strongly disagree. It would be ideal if something can be both appreciated by the layman and appreciated by the people who know what they are talking about (probably in utterly different ways).
I always thought that sort of idea is just silly. Great art can be appreciated by anyone. The experts are just better able to express why they appreciate it.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 18:27   #17
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Re: Abstract Art

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I always thought that sort of idea is just silly. Great art can be appreciated by anyone. The experts are just better able to express why they appreciate it.
I'd say there is more of a difference than ability to express, experts are more likely to appreciate it more as they can notice extra things and more importantly how they interact with each other etc. I have never done an art appreciation course though so know little about it, I'm just attempting to draw parallels with writing where since I've actually been researching how to appreciate it and learning the rules and why they are important and how they work it's opened up a whole new part of it I didn't know even existed. As they're two completely different art forms I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 18:36   #18
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Re: Abstract Art

The whole point of art, sculpture, painting, the visual arts, is the creation of the image though. As such bar being able to see it I don't see any other techniques to the appreciation of it.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 18:38   #19
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Re: Abstract Art

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Originally Posted by Deepflow
I'd say there is more of a difference than ability to express, experts are more likely to appreciate it more as they can notice extra things and more importantly how they interact with each other etc.
I'm not sure that's really that important though. I've argued against this point with Nod before, but I don't see one type of appreciation as better / deeper than another. When I listen to a song I get a very different type of appreciation than someone who knows how to play various instruments, but it's not like they're somehow enjoying it more than I am. Appreciation of art is an intensely subjective experience and saying things like x will appreciate it more than y seems unhelpful (not to mention elitist).

I could say that as I'm into Marxist theory I can appreciate most cultural produce more because I'm seeing all this other stuff which others might not. If I did I'd imagine most people would think I was being fairly ridiculous. I don't see much difference here.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 18:44   #20
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Re: Abstract Art

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
The whole point of art, sculpture, painting, the visual arts, is the creation of the image though. As such bar being able to see it I don't see any other techniques to the appreciation of it.
Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess...

There could be an underlying theme throughout the piece that isn't actually observable unless you understand the meaning of each particular constituent of it (e.g the way different colours/shapes/etc interact). It should be reasonably obvious that it's possible to view art and not understand it, we've all seen the comedy sketches where someone describes a piece of art as a representation as this that or the other when it's actually not. What we can take from these (other than a cheap laugh) is that very often there actually is something not understood by the layman.

The point is that what it is a representation of and how that representation is understood is normally only noticed by experts. Familiarity with the artist and what they normally try to do would be another useful tool for understanding more fully, and another example of experts being able to do it. Another would be if they were pasticheing another form of art, or another artist, or themselves even. Here, again, familiarity with more different pieces of art is useful for appreciating it. I used these examples not because I think others don't exist, but they are the only ones I can really talk about with my limited knowledge of the visual arts. I think you should at least be able to see how a greater knowledge of the field as a whole can increase the understanding of specific pieces though. I hope someone with a bit more knowledge can talk about the technical aspects of art appreciation (please?).
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 18:49   #21
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Re: Abstract Art

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I'm not sure that's really that important though. I've argued against this point with Nod before, but I don't see one type of appreciation as better / deeper than another. When I listen to a song I get a very different type of appreciation than someone who knows how to play various instruments, but it's not like they're somehow enjoying it more than I am. Appreciation of art is an intensely subjective experience and saying things like x will appreciate it more than y seems unhelpful (not to mention elitist).
Oh absolutely, but it seems to me that the people who do like the visual arts more will naturally learn more about them, whether that increases their "enjoyment" of it or not is a very difficult question. I would argue though that there is a certain satisfaction (not necessarily the same as enjoyment) which is gained from comprehending art more fully.

I also agree that appreciation of art is intensely subjective, and even worse I'm not aware of anyone on this forum who IS heavily into the visual arts, which is a bit of a shame. Hopefully this thread will bring them out if they're here.
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Unread 8 Jul 2006, 23:40   #22
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Re: Abstract Art

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Originally Posted by Deepflow
Surely beauty is a measurement of the enjoyment which an observer gets from experiencing the art, at least to some extent.

It depends on the semantics of 'beauty' that you use, i prefer to keep it distinct from 'enjoyment' or 'appreciation'. If you want to take 'beauty' and 'like' synonymously by all means do so but i prefer to keep the option open that something that is 'ugly' or 'repulsive' can still be 'liked' and 'appreciated'. To give an example i once read a piece on the representation and development of memorials to various events, the author made the point that the creator of a particular piece of that nature wouldn't necesarrily want it to be seen as 'beautiful' (in the sense it is pleasing to look at).



Quote:
If you are saying that the only purpose of art is so that people who have studied it can indulge in wankery about how great it is and speak about it in terms laymen won't understand then I would strongly disagree. It would be ideal if something can be both appreciated by the layman and appreciated by the people who know what they are talking about (probably in utterly different ways). I'm sure this happens in many pieces of great art, be it abstract or not. It almost seems as if you're dismissing something as not art because it can be appreciated by people who can't understand it fully.

Quote:
Im not after 10th order bullshit explanations of how a particular work is so 'deep' it takes 10K words to explain, but the semblence of thought, something beyond this collection of stuff looks quite nice.
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