lancer+bomber ridicule

[Precursors]

any way to stop lancer+bomber combo as a terran without def? You cant even kill a handful of them. I mean you have a CR to shoot at FR but the FR kills you before you shoot. You have a CO to shoot at DE but DE kills you before you shoot. It is ridiculous! At least the pho or hydra should have the same init, or the pho should have ini 3 or something. We will watch Xans take over the universe and the end positions will prove it. Sad thing is, we have to use thousands of people to pay and find this out

current races in universe:

Terran 41%
Cathaar 13%
Xandathrii 26%
Zikonian 18%

Now lets see the top 100 situation:
Terran 44 %
Cath 7%
Xan 42%
Zik 7%

Also,
10 of top 20 is Xan 8 of top 20 is Terran

mind you, terrans are downfall too, and Xans are on the rise. I will check it in a week to see the changes again. I hope they come up with a better paper-rock-unbreakablesteelscissor combination of races next round

[Tomkat]

Terrans would be unstoppable if the Xans weren't able to take them down.

[jerome]

But, Vipers(Hi Bombers/Arrows)+ Hornet/Mosquitoes own xandathrii.

In addition to that, Zikonians have two ways of roiding xandas easy;
1] Cutlass (on a suicide mission assuming target has FB but nvm) + Cutters (hi lancers) + Privateer.
2] Clippers (hi bombers) + Rogues (forces defender to run his pulsars) + Raider.

Xanda may have an edge over Terrans, but Zik & Cath own xanda`s.

PS. The game has always required one to derive defence from alliance/gal/etc to survive/win - why change that ?

[themast]

Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_

Xanda may have an edge over Terrans, but Zik & Cath own xanda`s.

whenever i have attacked caths ands ziks i hardly ever lose any ships and i gain a few roids

[Teh_Necro]

There is a reason smart ppl went Xan you know? ¬_¬

[Zo0f]

Originally Posted by Teh_Necro

There is a reason smart ppl went Xan you know? ¬_¬

[Seth Mace]

Terran DE causes just as much trouble for Xan (pegs are such a pain in the arse;P), as the above combo against Terrans does. So i think each has just as much opportunity to own the enemy!

Ofc pegs dont have an advantage over pulsars as the ini is the same but they still kick arse.

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by Teh_Necro

There is a reason smart ppl went Xan you know? ¬_¬

Indeed Too many people whined about how strong Terran was before round started

[Tomkat]

Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_

In addition to that, Zikonians have two ways of roiding xandas easy;
1] Cutlass (on a suicide mission assuming target has FB but nvm) + Cutters (hi lancers) + Privateer.

Rarely works. Most Xans now have FBs, to deter other Xans hitting them. And they also usually have shitloads of Vsh waiting, which makes it too painful. You'd need to have a stupid amount of Cutlass.

Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_

2] Clippers (hi bombers) + Rogues (forces defender to run his pulsars) + Raider.

You're relying on the target running his pulsars. If he doesn't, then you both get hideous losses. Too risky really.

[TAZ^]

Ive had no trouble roiding anyone at all even targets twice my size depends on what u send and if u catch them sleeping all the better.. im a zik myself made a change as i usually play and thanx too allaince defence ive had no problem keeping the roids ive gained ..no thanx too my gal tho inactive muppets

[Precursors]

Originally Posted by Seth Mace

Terran DE causes just as much trouble for Xan (pegs are such a pain in the arse;P), as the above combo against Terrans does. So i think each has just as much opportunity to own the enemy!

Ofc pegs dont have an advantage over pulsars as the ini is the same but they still kick arse.

pegs fire - pulsars fire same time
you at least kill some DEs as Xan
but when u're terran and lancers fire at your phos they cant fire back - all dead!
bombers fire at your hydras and they cant fire back - all dead

[jerome]

Originally Posted by Tomkat

Rarely works. Most Xans now have FBs, to deter other Xans hitting them. And they also usually have shitloads of Vsh waiting, which makes it too painful. You'd need to have a stupid amount of Cutlass.

I mean for an early round tactic.

You're relying on the target running his pulsars. If he doesn't, then you both get hideous losses. Too risky really.

Too true.

[jerome]

Originally Posted by themast

whenever i have attacked caths ands ziks i hardly ever lose any ships and i gain a few roids

I don`t know, what size caths/ziks you attack, but I doubt they`ve composed their fleet all that well :s

[Seth Mace]

Originally Posted by Precursors

pegs fire - pulsars fire same time
you at least kill some DEs as Xan
but when u're terran and lancers fire at your phos they cant fire back - all dead!
bombers fire at your hydras and they cant fire back - all dead

Yeah i know, which is what the original post was highlighting, that at least pulsars get a chance to do damage but they still get owned, which is all i was pointin out;P

[Linkie]

Basically, the biggest problem with ship stats this round is that they didn't make Cath or Zik very tempting.
The Terran DE combo has the same effect on ziks and to a smaller degree on caths as the lancer+bomber combo has on Terrans. When I say the same effect I dont mean killing effect, but the free-roids effect, which is what's important here anyway.

Originally Posted by Seth Mace

Terran DE causes just as much trouble for Xan (pegs are such a pain in the arse;P), as the above combo against Terrans does. So i think each has just as much opportunity to own the enemy!

Ofc pegs dont have an advantage over pulsars as the ini is the same but they still kick arse.

Not a single terran in his right mind would lander on 6k pulsars with 2k DE for 2-400 roids.

[Precursors]

to correct the ridiculous balance phoes should have init 3, or lancers should have init 4

[Phil^]

or people should realise no one race should be superior to all else, and should be weak to at least one other.

[Linkie]

Originally Posted by Phil^

or people should realise no one race should be superior to all else, and should be weak to at least one other.

however, this way of thinking requires perfect balance between all races as it's in need of 20-30% of each race in the universe.

[Precursors]

Originally Posted by Phil^

or people should realise no one race should be superior to all else, and should be weak to at least one other.

did you even think on what i just said? in what was does making pho init 3 make Terran superior? And who said one race or another should be superior? We are discussing that Xan is ALREADY superior

Please read the thread

[Linkie]

Originally Posted by Precursors

did you even think on what i just said? in what was does making pho init 3 make Terran superior? And who said one race or another should be superior? We are discussing that Xan is ALREADY superior

Please read the thread

this practically robs the xan fr fleet for targets. Unless there's alot of clipperless ziks out there.
And quite frankly, it isn't.

[Blacknova]

Originally Posted by Linkie

this practically robs the xan fr fleet for targets. Unless there's alot of clipperless ziks out there.
And quite frankly, it isn't.

I think the problem demonstrated stems from the fact that there are two "dominant" races, and the terran ultimately are forced into a single fleet setup as it's the only way they can reliably raid Xan targets (DE) ...

Peg + Lancer combo effectively means that no defence can be performed on a target without sustainining losses from *somewhere* at this moment in time, because of the sheer lack of numbers in the other two races. Xans were given the tools to efficiently fight off Terran anti FR (lancers and bombers can anihilate CO and CR before either gets the chance to fire), wheras those tools don't work as cleanly when it comes to Xan anti DE. Xans also had the tools early round to strike at other Xans, since the Sentinel is by all accounts, utterly useless.

Terrans are best able to defend against Terran DE and Xan FR sans Lancers, neither Xan nor Terran has a decent counter to a bomber / lancer Xan teamed with a Terran Pegfleet.

That's the real problem imo. Two races able to efficiently cover the majority of anti DE firepower at init 3 between them means relying on taking heavy losses or locating the few Zik / Cath players who can actually make a difference.

Nova

[Precursors]

Originally Posted by Linkie

this practically robs the xan fr fleet for targets. Unless there's alot of clipperless ziks out there.
And quite frankly, it isn't.

you may be right, there may not be many clipperless ziks out there, but what percentage of the universe is zik anway?
a player cant play alone to give the attacker a second thought on attacking himself? do I have to rely on zik clippers as a Terran?
And I am assuming you are Xan with FR fleet, you can go roid 40% of the universe with your lancer+bomber fleet
you get the roids, plus score from high kills
I as a terran lose much attacking Xans with my DEs already cos of pulsars firing same time
same for attacking Terrans cos of phoenixes

[Linkie]

Originally Posted by Precursors

you may be right, there may not be many clipperless ziks out there, but what percentage of the universe is zik anway?
a player cant play alone to give the attacker a second thought on attacking himself? do I have to rely on zik clippers as a Terran?
And I am assuming you are Xan with FR fleet, you can go roid 40% of the universe with your lancer+bomber fleet
you get the roids, plus score from high kills
I as a terran lose much attacking Xans with my DEs already cos of pulsars firing same time
same for attacking Terrans cos of phoenixes

You don't have to rely on clippers to stop a xan lancer+fr combo. The best way to stop this kind of attack given the current race variety is to pummel the attacker with pulsars and so, kill his precious lancers and simply make losses too high for the roids to be worthwhile for the xan.

I happen to be terran myself, and doing fairly well at it too. And to my knowledge you don't get score from killing ships. And tbh, you should always expect some losses for your roids, so saying you cant attack terran because of phoenixes is a useless argument. Usually a terran needs atleast between 2 000 and 2 500 phoenixes per 1000 roid.

And another good idea is you can always team with a xan, as someone mentioned above, Lancer+pega is almost an unbetable combo.

[Precursors]

Where did I say I cant attack a terran because of phoenixes??? I said i lose my DEs when i attack a terran, but Xans dont lose DEs when attacking a terran. So unit scans make me think twice before I attack a terran/xan, as I calc my losses, I calc in how many ticks i can recover. But Xans de+fr fleet return home without losses.

About 2-2,5k pho per 1k roids: I had 4k pho, 2k gryphon yesterday and lost all to a Xan lancer+bomber combo, and built 4k more pho today. I had around 1k roids only. Now whenever i have lancer incoming i lose so many gryphon/pho that my left ships dont even kill any enemy, leaving me no choice but to flee and give away free roids. 2-2,5k pho per 1k roids is reasonable versus a terran but not versus Xan.
So you're saying I should rely on Xan aid to defend vs a Xan, as you said you're doing so. Or that I can team with a Xan to attack a Xan.

Doesnt this prove Xan Lancer is overpowered already?

[Hicks]

Why didn't you run your CO and get Pulsar defence ? Just like most Xans rely on Nix defence against Terran DE. Planetarion isn't a game you can play alone.

[Linkie]

I didn't mean 2k - 2,5k nixes was enough vs xan, but it's enough to stop a terran. But no, I do not agree the lancer is overpowered, I'd rather say zik/cath is underpowered and that's what's making this problem, not the lancer itself. And when you get lancer incs I'd advice you to either get pulsars or run your fleet, or tbh, run your fleet even if you do get pulsars as it's a sitting duck anyway.

But what you're implying in your above posts is that we change the shipstats, and as I mentioned above, this will render the lancer close to useless, and in addition if the PATeam changed ship stats in the middle of the round, it would just be yet another big blunder this round out of retardness.

If you mean this is something that should be changed for next round I'm sure the team is aware of it (tho, with these guys you never know heh).

In short summary, this discussions is quite useless.

[Wandows]

Originally Posted by Linkie

In short summary, this discussions is quite useless.

In that case we might aswell close down this forum


problem this round is just (like some ppl mentioned) the underpowered cath / zik, they can't do anything really... cathaar emp hs about zero effectiveness compared to other rounds (though vipers are nice), as there are xan ships who kill just as well or even better than the cathaar ship stuns.. which is ridicilous imho. And zik have the problem they effectively are a weak emp race (there are not alot of ships targetting their own class... so suberverting is close to being useless).

If they would have been tweaked after beta (a decent tweak.. not those useless changes that were made to cathaar) the round would have been alot more fun race-wise :-)

[ComradeRob]

Originally Posted by Precursors

any way to stop lancer+bomber combo as a terran without def?

There's no way to stop any attacking fleet without def - people will only attack you if they know their fleet will get through.

Bomber/lancer fleets are easily stopped with pulsars.

[Precursors]

Originally Posted by Linkie

But what you're implying in your above posts is that we change the shipstats, and as I mentioned above, this will render the lancer close to useless, and in addition if the PATeam changed ship stats in the middle of the round, it would just be yet another big blunder this round out of retardness.

So pho firing same time with Lancer would make Lancer useless? Do you mean pegasus is useless because it fires same time with pulsars? What kind of logic is that?

I am merely pointing out Xan vs Terran imbalance in the round and going to prove it statisticly. I will check the top 100 situation again in a few days

[Precursors]

Originally Posted by ComradeRob

There's no way to stop any attacking fleet without def - people will only attack you if they know their fleet will get through.

Bomber/lancer fleets are easily stopped with pulsars.

again, Xan stopped by another Xan

[ComradeRob]

Is there some rule that says xans can't defend terrans?

[jerome]

You noticed how terrans also can stop themselves (using nixes)?

[Linkie]

Originally Posted by Precursors

So pho firing same time with Lancer would make Lancer useless? Do you mean pegasus is useless because it fires same time with pulsars? What kind of logic is that?

Yes, I do. As this means you render the xans without targets (except for maybe the few zik/caths with sucky fleets around) as terrans already keep a high phoenix count.

[Helix]

The problem with the round is not that Xans can get free roids from terrans. The problem is the complete weakness of the other two races. The other two races, especially cath are the ones that can roid xans. However those races are incredibly weak, and there are very few out there that are actually large enough to take on the larger xans. This means that terrans can be attacked relatively easily by about 1/2 the universe, whereas xans can only be attacked effectively by about 1/10 the universe. THAT is the problem.

If the Cath and Zik were made more enticing / better able to defend themselves etc... then it would have been an interesting fight. Also, not only are the only people that can attack Xan the cathaar and the zik, but the only people who can effectively defend a terran from a lancer/fr combo is cathaar and zik, which are underpopulated, and underpowered.

As was said in beta about terrans being too powerful. The problem is not that terrans or xans are too powerful, the problem is that cath and zik are too weak. The balance of the game relies upon there being equal amounts of races, comprising about equal amounts of total value and roids in the galaxy, then the game would be quite interesting. As it stands, PATeam and spinner failed miserably to make cathaar and zik effective at all this round. Yes their CR roiding is very nice, but they cant defend themselves for shit and therefore can never hang onto their roids.


I hope that they realise the problem is the weakness of cathaar and zik and change that for next round. I find it quite odd that zik and cath could have been so well balanced last round, yet so poor this round.

[Precursors]

Of course I agree Cath and Zik need a tweak. Their ships are too expensive to build in necessary amounts to stop an equal size terran/Xan. Ofc a tweak in their stats will make more people play them next round.

I played the beta as a Xan, i didnt really have any problem roiding Terrans, I had 1800 lancers and could go roid any terran without a loss. Terrans weren't overpowered in beta, people just didnt know how to play Xan. But this aint beta, this is the 2000-2500 tick game itself with more players, and lancer+bomber is going to dominiate I tell ya!

[wakey]

tbh I dont subscribe to the fact that Cath and Zik are actually too weak, its just peoples impression that they are weak so very few choose them and then BECAUSE of the lack of number of these planets it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy . If they were to see these two races have an increase next round to make them more appealing we would probally be sitting here saying the same thing about the another race. Its simply the whole underlying problem with giving people a choice of their race in any MMOG because if you then end up with one race having too many it instantly makes any race good against the dominate race over powerful, and any race thats bad against the dominate race weak. You cant really adjust to account for peoples choice because doing so will normally see you change the balance and hence you change the balance again.

In someways it would be better if our race was more decided on our actions and the universe. We would all start off as unaligned with the bog standard array of ships at our disposal. From here we would attack, conduct politics ect ect and the game would decide for us what race we are aligned to. Due to the game controlling it it could take the distribution into account as a way of controlling the balance which would allow it to be kept more in check (ie if your actions have you between being a ter and cath with current distribution youd become a cath) Although having said that people wouldnt like such a system as they wouldnt like having race choice taken out of their hands as people like being what the consider the best race

[Gerbie]

Originally Posted by wakey

tbh I dont subscribe to the fact that Cath and Zik are actually too weak, its just peoples impression that they are weak so very few choose them and then BECAUSE of the lack of number of these planets it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy .

You are right about the self fulfilling prophecye, but Cath and Zik ARE weak as well. 3 out of 4 races (cath/zik/terran) can roid zik/cath for free. The race with the best ships (Terran) can ONLY roid cath/zik for free. I'd call that a weakness.

[Wandows]

the roiding for free is not really the problem... cathaar always has been a free roids target. I have played cathaar almost every round (though zik past 2 rounds) and am doing it this round again. My impression is that they are not that bad as ppl make them look, but they are definatly far from being as good to work with as terran or Xan is.


The fact that emp (which only blocks, and doesn't kill) is about as effective as any other race their kill ships makes them weak to play. Cuz you need the same amount of ships to roid a killer-race when you attack cathaar.. but get the roids for free.. thats a rather easy choise :-). Emp should have been far more effective than it is atm (there should always be a extra thing to a race that is giving away free roids).

The zik has a slightly different problem.. but its almost the same as cathaar. Their ships with subverting ability hardly ever target a unit that actually helps subverting as there is almost no unit in the current stats that targets its own class (only harpy/spider/arrowhead/defender do), which makes zik just a underpowered emp race mostly (though some of the subverting stuff is very handy on attacks... it sucks in defence)

[Jonas]

Problem with Zik and Cat are that they are too easy to roid. Not too hard to attack with

Xans almost always hurt you. Terrans usually does the same...

-Jonas-

[Precursors]

yes, and Xans hurt most due to their initiative and high attack power

[Cooling]

You are all looking at this the wrong way, the solution is not to boost the power of terran defense ships.

The solution is to increase their ships attack power by creating an exploitable hole in the xan fleet for a terran fleet that mixes with another shipclass.

That way mixed race defense becomes a nessecity for both races.

Obviously im taking it as a given that there is a prominence of two races, if the stats of cath and zik were tweaked to make those races more desirable (thus restoring universe balance) then there would be no problems with the targeting/init as it now stands

[Blacknova]

Xan's don't exactly have many weaknesses, their fast init means they fire ahead of most terran ships bar the peg, and their FR / DE is tailored specifically to counter the anti-pod (FR) of the terran fleet, losslessly in the right numbers as well.

Their anti FR by default results in a slight hole since it targets it's own class, and is therefore susceptible to zik evilness, and their anti DE isn't exactly terrific (firing at the same times as pegs is pricey). There's nothing glaring that you can pick a hole through after about tick 240-250 once Siege weapons start appearing (sth has to be done about that Fireblade tbh, that thing makes last rounds nas look like a toy).

A flattening of the inits for the terran ships at the upper levels would help somewhat (making hydras init 3 would solve a lot of the issues without overpowering the Terran whatsoever), either that or an introduction of similar init curves in the other races.

Nova

[Precursors]

Originally Posted by Blacknova

A flattening of the inits for the terran ships at the upper levels would help somewhat (making hydras init 3 would solve a lot of the issues without overpowering the Terran whatsoever), either that or an introduction of similar init curves in the other races.

Nova

that or making the phoenix init 3. Pegs already dont fire at pho's so pho's firing at init 3 or 4 dont make difference for anti-terran. Though pho's can be used offensively vs Xans and that would cause a problem. Then making hydra init 3 would be best possible solution to the ridicule.

[ComradeRob]

Lowering terran initiative just makes them more like Xan.

Each race has different advantages - Xan's advantage is high firepower, but offset by weak armour. Terrans high higher armour and high firepower, but weak initiative. Cathaar have very high armour, good initiative, but lack good kill ships. Zik have the ability to subvert, and good initiative.

A Xan FR/lancer fleet is easily stopped by pulsars - the fact that a Xan is required to defend against a Xan is completely irrelevant. On any attack, outside defence will be required. Xans are not really any more difficult to defend against than any other race, unless your alliance is entirely comprised of terrans

[Precursors]

Originally Posted by ComradeRob

Lowering terran initiative just makes them more like Xan.

Each race has different advantages - Xan's advantage is high firepower, but offset by weak armour. Terrans high higher armour and high firepower, but weak initiative. Cathaar have very high armour, good initiative, but lack good kill ships. Zik have the ability to subvert, and good initiative.

A Xan FR/lancer fleet is easily stopped by pulsars - the fact that a Xan is required to defend against a Xan is completely irrelevant. On any attack, outside defence will be required. Xans are not really any more difficult to defend against than any other race, unless your alliance is entirely comprised of terrans

Xan has high firepower AND low init, that's what makes them superior. Terran might have high armor but high init mixed with low firepower makes them so weak vs terrans.
and again you are suggesting Xan to stop a Xan

[General Martok]

Originally Posted by Precursors

Xan has high firepower AND low init, that's what makes them superior. Terran might have high armor but high init mixed with low firepower makes them so weak vs terrans.
and again you are suggesting Xan to stop a Xan

Because it's the easiest way to stop lancers maybe? Don't you stop terran DE fleets with phoenix then? exactly the same......

If you make terrans harder to roid for xans, you'll make terrans invincible. Lowering their init would mean xans can't roid them anymore, leaving xan with some nice ships but NO good roidfleets. Like several people said, the problem is the lack of active zik/cath planets. With 25% planets in each race, the problem (if it is a problem) would be solved.

[Precursors]

Originally Posted by General Martok

Because it's the easiest way to stop lancers maybe? Don't you stop terran DE fleets with phoenix then? exactly the same......

If you make terrans harder to roid for xans, you'll make terrans invincible. Lowering their init would mean xans can't roid them anymore, leaving xan with some nice ships but NO good roidfleets. Like several people said, the problem is the lack of active zik/cath planets. With 25% planets in each race, the problem (if it is a problem) would be solved.

Excuse me, how would the Terrans be invincible? Terrans have hard time attacking other terrans due to high phoenix count, Xans roiding Terrans for free while terrans lose DEs when attacking Xans. Only time it will become to roid a terran for a terran is after a Xan has completely killed the phoes.

[jerome]

Hydras have wonderful armour&guns, it`s only that their init lets them down, putting them at init 3, would make that much more 'overpowered' than the Lancer.

[General Martok]

Originally Posted by Precursors

Excuse me, how would the Terrans be invincible?

Because almost noone can attack them maybe? Terran can't roid terran, cath and zik have a hard time roiding them as well. If xan can't roid terran, who can? Every race needs a gap to get roided. For xan that would have to be cathaar and/or zik, but since they lack the numbers, xan might look overpowered. As told before, if cathaar and zik numbers increase by spicing their races up, the problem is solved.

Terrans have hard time attacking other terrans due to high phoenix count, Xans roiding Terrans for free while terrans lose DEs when attacking Xans. Only time it will become to roid a terran for a terran is after a Xan has completely killed the phoes.

OMG

So what? Can xans attack each other now they have fireblades? For the love of god stop thinking so one-way

edit: added a few lines because Precursors refuses to understand post #2, #3, #15 (first part), #17, #18, #20, #21, #23, #25, #26, #27, #28, #31, #32, #33, #34, #37, #38, #39, #41, #44. Seems you don't WANT to get it, all those posts have valid points against your views, but still you refuse to accept that. I'm sorry I made a (sort of) flamebite, but imho you deserved it....

[Precursors]

General Martok, please leave this thread as we are trying to make a discussion here not a flaming contest

_ryzekiel_ i agree, lowering hydra init to 3 would make them to powerful, what about lowering lancer init from 3 to 4? The current overpowering comes from lancers killing all terran anti-DE before they can shoot. With the phoenixes dead a terran is open to attack from both Xans and terrans. Maybe adding 1-2 ship types for all races would help better, maybe 1 more ship class targetting DEs for Terran & Xan without changing the current ship stats could solve the problem. A CR class anti-DE for Terran&Xan perhaps? Notice how Cath and Zik have to use CRs offensivly with high ETA while Xans/Terran can make lower eta attacks...Just trying to find a solution here.