Honour and Loyalty

[Ahriman]

Here you are Storebo, a thread to whine in. But don't be fooled into thinking I made it to help you; I just find it tiresome having to laugh at you in multiple threads - it would be so much more efficient to just have a nice big laugh all at your petty attempts in one thread.

If a mod is willing they can shift the off-topic posts from Rumad's thread to this, too, as they would be a lot more appropriate here.

So to get things into full swing we'll begin by quoting that deadly spear of wit, leading the charge against everything Titans (R).

Originally posted by Storebo
U guys brooke your word. And using the word Honour after that is a mockery.

So basically you're saying that every alliance that ever ended relations with another is not honourable? Because really they had 'promised' to stick with them. I'm afraid I disagree; in the dynamic world of politics things like this happen. Agreements are made and reality intervenes. More profitable avenues open and it's neccessary to close the less profitable ones. Quite why this needs to be explained to you, having been an HC yourself, I don't know - I can only put it down to a nasty bout of amnesia.

Taking all of this into account, your next logical arguement would be to concede that no alliance is Honourable, and continue throwing pebbles based on Titans being in denial concerning their status in this context.

So without bothering to give you the opportunity to be entirely predictable, we'll just move it all along and say that Honour is based on human interpretation which is an unreliable foundation at best. This also means that not only is Honour a matter of perspective, but that it's a matter of comparable magnitude. Titans have at least comparable Honour compared to other alliances, and have a great deal of Honour to it's allies and even more so to it's members.

No doubt you will still be struggling to assert that Titans' Honour where allies are concerned is limitted. So again, we'll negate the need for a reply of that manner and continue on with the arguement.

Reality in game terms is really only in tick-time, as without the time constant nothing can be achieved. Therefore Titans spent precisely zero seconds allied to Deus. Couple this with my previous arguement and chuck in healthy dose of reality, and you really have no ground to be criticising that part of Titans history, so unless you can poke a sufficiently large hole in my arguement, you can kindly shut up about it as you've already made a big enough fool of yourself for tonight. Reaching the status of 'buffoon' is an option readily open to you, but I advise against taking it.

Unfortunately we all know you'll continue grasping at Titans' birth as a matter of moral principal - it is essentially the hinge of your arguement, after all. So we've already established that Titans is an alliance that has members loyal to eachother. Even you have commented on it (luckily it's to be your downfall - aren't you proud?). Based on this fact we can talk a little about the Honour and Loyalty involved in not rebelling there and then against VtS HC.

The possibility of it, as far as I'm aware was discussed, though I wasn't a member at the time I certainly had some links to the VtS of r5. However it should be quite clear that it would have ended up with the Gods galaxies suffering - so your point about considering score was certainly a factor (another point adding to the utter collapse of your arguement, nice work). Consider that Loyalty to eachother was prioritised above that Loyalty to an outside alliance - if they were to look out for Elysium's wellfare above that of their own members then they'd really be a crap alliance. So they did prioritise their members, and they waited until the end of the round to announce their disgust at VtS HC and their leaving. The Elysium business was after all only one of the reasons that Titans split.

All of this brings about the conclusion that the only way you can argue is to say that you would have prioritised another alliance's members above your own. This would be a betrayal of your own alliance and certainly the complete opposite of Honour and Loyalty close to you where it really counts. You can't win.

Now that the Deus/Elysium connections are dealt with, the only way you can continue is to concentrate entirely on Titans' backstabbing of Fury; which would just be admitting total ignorance and utter naïvety.

Are you really willing to make that much of a fool of yourself? Are you even allowed to make such absurd arguements? I should think that Fury would keep you on a tighter leash after that rather funny log.

[kyrealean]

no alliance that has participated in Planetarion can claim that they were honourable or Loyal. Every alliance has had members that fked their alliances over by selling them out or using them solely for defensive reasons, not giving 2 cents whether their alliance mates lived or died.


the phrase Honour and Loyalty is just being cheapened by anyone that claims it in this game.

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by kyrealean
no alliance that has participated in Planetarion can claim that they were honourable or Loyal.

kyrealean's sig
Reduco ad Honore
Return to Honor

Besides that slight irregularity...

Originally posted by kyrealean
the phrase Honour and Loyalty is just being cheapened by anyone that claims it in this game.

I disagree on the basis that everything has it's perspective, it could be said that the actions of alliances in planetarion are a good deal more honourable than those of soldiers in reality who are often touted as such.

Perspective is impossible to argue with, I implore you to let Storebo do it.

[HobbieRogue4]

Thanks Ahriman. My post is now moved here.
...
On the entirely out of topic 'topic' it's interesting to note that Fury and Titans relations weren't as solid as their agreed political state would mean. Certainly some of that could be equally said of Legion and Titans relations, and certainly in the Fury and Legion relationship as well.

Things were never dainty in FLT(TV) land, what held them together was a greater danger, the rest of the universe obviously.

While Storebo is trying to make an effort to discredit Titans, it simply won't be possible in his way. Titans command hasn't changed drastically since it was formed, but its 'need' for some things has certainly diminished, and the direction of the alliance has changed (for the better it would seem). Titans is not the same alliance it once was, just as Fury is not the same alliance it once was.

Storebo, bringing 'Gods' and 'Elysium' to the table serves no purpose. Times were entirely different, and most people know why.

Certainly any directon an alliance takes comes from the desire to win. It's natural. Titans' involvement in the Consortium fiasco was no different than the involvement of others. One might want to look a bit closer to home for reason(s) for Consortium anyway.

The fact of the matter is, 'Honor' is defined but often used differently, for a number of purposes. Last year my sister wouldn't roll up the car window on a cold morning on the way to school. While I could have hit her and continued to escale an already bad situation, I chose to pull over and exit the car so I could cool off. I needed space, lest I make a damaging mistake.

Would it not be honorable for an alliance that doesn't get along with another to distance itself, possibly going to war? Oh sure, an agreement was broken... ah, but yet again we realize "this is just a game" and honor serves no purpose when the game (or alliance) has no future ahead of it.

Oh, and Legion never sanctioned an 'honor' movement. Those who chose to use honor to discribe their experience in Legion did so on their own terms. Those who needed to capitalize on "Legion's lack of honor" in Round 5 did so, to their own ends.

I don't feel that was very honorable of them. And I'm sure they disagree with me.

Get it yet?

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by HobbieRogue4
Oh, and Legion never sanctioned an 'honor' movement. Those who chose to use honor to discribe their experience in Legion did so on their own terms. Those who needed to capitalize on "Legion's lack of honor" in Round 5 did so, to their own ends.

I don't feel that was very honorable of them. And I'm sure they disagree with me.

That, Hobbie, was excellent. I can go to bed with a smile on my face

[HobbieRogue4]

As for alliance 'slogans' they really serve to unite a membership into one thought or ideal; something the alliance sets out to achieve. Some alliances are significantly more diverse than others, so a slogan only means so much. In essence, we have two extremes: Fury's "Feel the Fury" has lead me to believe Fury seeks to achieve victory at all costs, while Titans' "Honoir and Loyalty" presents the spirit to win, but with a desire to do it with hightened morality.

A slogan can do good, and it can do bad. Legion's a great example of it (:/). It's slogan helped forge a spirited sense of pride and respect in the alliance, while seeking to be victorious. Not much different than other alliances to form later. But it would be turned against (and inward) itself and serve to discredit Legion in the eyes of players, both in and outside of Legion. It goes without saying that he same has and still can happen to others.

In Titans' case, they are still relatively fresh, and still pretty close to the idealism surrounding their slogan. Besides the speculation and eeriness surrounding WebAngel and his galaxy Round 7, I've had no reason to consider Titans, as a current alliance, to have not lived up to their slogan. As if that mattered to anyone but their members anyway; that's who the slogan applies and means most to.*

*Which makes me resent the mass-recruitment practices of Legion in Round 4 that much more; no doubt the same will be said by later generation Legionnaires of Round 3.

I have little doubt a slogan can help attract players to an alliance, usually with the same thought-process and desires as those already in the alliance. That's a good thing (generally). Were I in Titans, I most certainly would want a player who holds 'honor' and 'loyalty' in high regard while playing Planetarion to join, rather than someone who doesn't. I think that can pretty much be said for any alliance; wanting members who share your ideals is quite favorable.

[Silva baby]

Storebo cannot talk
i still have Adelante fresh in my mind

[KoRnNut]

I've been chattering my fat lips all day about Honour and Loyalty and it's relevence to certain Titans HC giving a "ha ha" attitude towards FAnG's current troubles, so I'm not in the mood the get back on my warpath again.

If Titans + Friends wanna attempt to pound their opponents to a bloody pulp, secure their R8 victory early, stagnate the round for them and everyone else, they can. But God forbid they slip up this round and need a friend or two as far as alliances to 'back off' and let them get off the floor and stand back up and fight. I'll point to these threads from this weekend and we'll see if they find the 'No Mercy' FAnG collapse as entertaining as a 'No Mercy' Titans collapse.

And I can't even blame them tbh, Legion and Fury set an example to all round after round after round of kicking your opponent while their down, then laughing in their face.

All I bother to mention is that 'Feel The Fury' is a slogan you'd expect from an alliance that acts like this. 'Honour and Loyalty' is a farce of a slogan when an alliance acts without it. Though WebAngel seems to be in tune with the slogan and how to act under it, judging by recent quotes.

The mentality of many alliances has changed this last round of PA. I wouldn't be very bold to say any alliance that tries to be a tough guy or a bully could find themselves the target of a very pissed of group of alliances that still have air in their lungs. That applies to everyone, so for your own good, everyone go take a course on modesty.

[ParraCida]

The only reason you people think honour doesn't exist anymore is because you no idea what it actually means. Now before you take this as an insult and take shelter on your moral highground, let me explain that by saying that we are 'dishonourable' because we made a few board postings to express our feeling on the current situation you indeed have no idea what the word really means.

Don't you see? By using the word 'honour' in every context that you like just to prove your point you're proving that you actually have no idea what it means, hence how can you even comment on it.

I hope the irony is not lost on you here.

[G.K Zhukov]

Good posts Hobbie. Its been a long time, since I agreed with you, must have been back in the FoL days.

[ComradeRob]

'Honour and Loyalty'

These two terms should be easy to explain.

'Honour' is presumably expressed in the tactics - both in-game and political, used by the alliance in question. It is 'honourable' to keep your word, to stand by your allies etc. 'Honour' could also be taken to refer to 'fairness' - not cheating or using unfair tactics. In essence, 'honour' in a Planetarion context should mean fighting fairly and honestly.

'Loyalty' is a bit more difficult to explain. Presumably the 'loyalty' being referred to is loyalty to Titans. In all fairness, Titans members do seem to be quite loyal to their alliance... but such loyalty is something that all alliances aspire to. And no alliance is able to claim that all of its members are 100% loyal all of the time.

'Honour and loyalty' are both good values to aspire to, but I think most people's problem with the use of these as a slogan is that it appears to be arrogant. If an alliance is honourable and loyal, then people will respect them for that. If an alliance has to shout about its honour and loyalty... then it appears as if they do not expect those values to be displayed in their actions.

[lokken]

Loyalty might apply in Planetarion

I've come to believe that honour is a myth in this game, especially considering that we have the "non-powerblock powerblock" already.

Personally, I don't see why any kind of honour should apply in round 8 - there is no round 9, there will be no recriminations, so why not be ruthless?

Personally, I'd screw the principles, and go round smashing my enemies, but that's just me, and I don't know much about round 8 :/

[Scouse]

I noticed in one of these threads Storebo whinging about how we should have left Legion in round 5 and fought with Elysium if we didn't like the decision. You can't be loyal to everyone, at that time we stayed loyal to our alliance, despite the fact that we were unhappy and we left at the end of the round.

People can't be loyal to their alliance, their allies, their friends and their galaxies, as there will be clashes. But I assume everyone else but Storebo is aware of that.

[Spearhead]

Originally posted by Scouse
I noticed in one of these threads Storebo whinging about how we should have left Legion in round 5 and fought with Elysium if we didn't like the decision. You can't be loyal to everyone, at that time we stayed loyal to our alliance, despite the fact that we were unhappy and we left at the end of the round.

People can't be loyal to their alliance, their allies, their friends and their galaxies, as there will be clashes. But I assume everyone else but Storebo is aware of that.

High horse - sitting - going to fall off soon - will become next storebo - have a nice day

[WebAngel]

A litle bit of PA history:
Back to r6, joining Titans for many reasons, I was a Titans member, happy to join my friends in this new alliance. In a first time, my relations with Titans were not that good. I have been very close to be kicked out of Titans because of some personal affairs. I had absolutelly no hope of being anything but mere member.
Aequitas decided to leave Titans so does Occultus. Beside of that, I have created 28:11 (Everlasting) with Aequitas just before the first tick. We had a few titans in it (Alicia Doon Tantor), they were looking for a galaxy too and joined because they knew Aequitas from the previous round.
28:11 did pretty well (#1 gal for about one month). Then Xeta and Deus and co went very effective and took down FLTV very soon. Many gals defected and 28.11 was told to defect like all the other big gals. Instead of that we have decided to stand and fight with honour and to stay loyal to our alliance even if that decision meant to be under attack 7/24. At this point of the game "Everlasting" changed its name to "Honour and Loyalty" (Thank you very much PsychoNL for that name full of meaning).
Xeta attacked us over and over again but "Honour and Loyalty" stood proudly (always top25/30 gal after been under attack for 2 weeks).
One day Scouse and Titans decided to tag H&L to celebrate 28.11's efforts.
Baptism of fire, our motto was born...

[Ahriman]

Originally posted by Spearhead
High horse - sitting - going to fall off soon - will become next storebo - have a nice day

That might have been appropriate to some other recent posts by Scouse, but not this one. He is entirely correct; it is hard to maintain loyalty to all. I was sat in a Fury galaxy last round when the war was announced, and I immediately sent defence to a Titans member.

Did I backstab my galaxy? In a way, yes. They had supported me throughout the round, and since I'd never actually been landed on; Titans had had no chance to do anything for me in the way of defence. I attacked with my galaxy as per Titans orders, and then with T&P - I went on only a few Titans raids.

I know I made the right decision though - I came to an agreement with my galaxy, that no information on gal statuses etc. would be supplied to either side concerning fleet movements, and after a slightly rough first night we got it together and continued playing as a galaxy.

It was a compromise; it wasn't full loyalty to my Fury galaxy, but it was the best I could offer, and I think I balanced it 'alright'. This is true for so many situations - full loyalty cannot be achieved when there is more than one entity to remain loyal to. Sad, but true.

Originally posted by Ahriman



Reality in game terms is really only in tick-time, as without the time constant nothing can be achieved. Therefore Titans spent precisely zero seconds allied to Deus.

Whilst I have no idea what you are on about for the rest of the message (been away for 8 months <g>) I can agree with you on thispoint. Being in Deus at the time, I can say that yes, the members were a bit disappointed that Titans decided not to ally with us, but we didn't consider it back stabbing, or at least, I got the feeling that this was not the case.

They never actually *promised* us anything - theys aid theyw ere open to discussions, and that both alliances, at their birth, had relatively similar paths to go on. However, as the round drew closer and closer to starting, we realiesd that it would not be in our best interests to establish an alliance, and thus Deus/hirr/ND did not ally to Titans.

Instead, we allied with XETA. It hink - it was quite a while ago

[xtothez]

Originally posted by Storebo
Stagnation... I would not betary allies....

No, you just mass-recruit 150 members then sell them out half way through a round. Much better :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Storebo
Stagnation is just an excuse for a stronger group within a set group to bash the weaker part. Titans didn't find the fight as fun when Legion/Virus became friends with fury again. Titans/Vts/Virus/NewX would do good against Fury/Rah/Fang i think...

That is far more even than the alternatives. Fury taking down 'allied' gals one-at-a-time? Reporting their allies for cheating, so they could get at the top spots? The worst of round 7 wasn't the stagnation, is was watching the underhandedness of people in the winning powerblock trying to **** each other over at the last minute for an easy rank. But of course, they didn't just declare a clean war and attack each other straight-out. That would be dishonourable, wouldn't it...? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Storebo
Had lost intrest in that round around that time tho.. so...

Then why embarass yourself further by talking about it?
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Storebo
U think Elysium should betray Wolfpack if roids become few? And don't name some kind of deal or something to do some peaceful stuff and have a fun war... This was a backstabbing. One side made sure they had the upperhand and tried to destroy the weaker side.

The situations are entirely different and you know it. WP and Ely are not in a position to own a round to the point were no one can challenge them together. That is stagnation, and that is what the consortium idea was all about. By posting **** like this you continue to show the political skill of the average [REVOLT] HC.

[Patrician]

Originally posted by Garshaw



Whilst I have no idea what you are on about for the rest of the message (been away for 8 months <g>) I can agree with you on thispoint. Being in Deus at the time, I can say that yes, the members were a bit disappointed that Titans decided not to ally with us, but we didn't consider it back stabbing, or at least, I got the feeling that this was not the case.

They never actually *promised* us anything - theys aid theyw ere open to discussions, and that both alliances, at their birth, had relatively similar paths to go on. However, as the round drew closer and closer to starting, we realiesd that it would not be in our best interests to establish an alliance, and thus Deus/hirr/ND did not ally to Titans.

Instead, we allied with XETA. It hink - it was quite a while ago

Wrong on almost every point! (However I can't be bothered correcting it, I'll leave that to someone who still feels the need to post seriously)

lo btw.

[Storebo]

Originally posted by Scouse
I noticed in one of these threads Storebo whinging about how we should have left Legion in round 5 and fought with Elysium if we didn't like the decision. You can't be loyal to everyone, at that time we stayed loyal to our alliance, despite the fact that we were unhappy and we left at the end of the round.

People can't be loyal to their alliance, their allies, their friends and their galaxies, as there will be clashes. But I assume everyone else but Storebo is aware of that.

Well.. just saying since it was so important for u guys to use that reason about Legion leaving Elysium to leave Legion and start your own alliance u guys had a very good chance to do something back then. Considering u had the Gods gals, and a number of other members. U choose not to, had to secure the victory first right?

And for the statement... Ahriman's post was way to long... never bothered to read through it.

But I consider Honour the part who reflects that alliance's dealings with other alliances. And Loyalty the part which shows their loyalty within the alliance.

Using Loyalty the round after they mass-deflected from an alliance wasn't that nice imo. And Honour first act was to ally someone and leave them. And other stuff ofcourse.. Don't think either of thoose terms should be used by the Titans alliance. U can't pride yourself with thoose terms when having broken all of them.

[Storebo]

Originally posted by xtothez

No, you just mass-recruit 150 members then sell them out half way through a round. Much better

Elysium round 4... After their mass-recruitment... How many was dumped? they had almost 500 and bam... down to 200.
How many members was solled out there? Remember being in parallel with some of them back then.. Them getting raped and having no defence. Because of the early taging, most alliances had Ely coords. And a little while after half the alliance was kicked out and nowhere to go. And having been the first ally to tag up and being spread among hundreds of gals. Everyone prayed for Ely roids. Now that cleanup had to be done tho. It might have turned nasty for some, but I stayed loyal. The mass recruitment was the fault back then, and things where done to fix that. Elysium where loosing some of their high profiled members because of the mass-recruitment and the spirit was fading away. But maybe they should rather have kept the 500 members with 20% activity? And continued like a n00bie alliance? Now... Adelante was originally around 50... then added DTA around 15-20. Then Vikings 30-40. And then Omg around 15-20. On its glory days we had 120 online of 170 members. But Adelante was allways meant to be small, that was what I allways wanted and the reason why DTA left, and why the Adelante core would have left if things hadn't changed. It was the merges who got out of control simply... and maybe I was way to nice with many..

Originally posted by xtothez

The situations are entirely different and you know it. WP and Ely are not in a position to own a round to the point were no one can challenge them together. That is stagnation, and that is what the consortium idea was all about. By posting **** like this you continue to show the political skill of the average [REVOLT] HC.

Think u are trying to hard to misunderstand me.... because clarly u can't be this stupid... or maybe u can?
It is about the ones in charge and how they look at stuff. Don't think Elysium would betray Wolfpack or Wolfpack betray Elysium even if it came to stagnation.. Or maybe u have other views?
This is directed towards alliances real honour... not ways to backstabb each other and save the round. When u have made a deal u stick by it.. that is honour.

[grkn]

The difference was that none who joined Elysium during the mass recruitment was promised "a small elite alliance", quite contrary to what was promised to Adelante recruits.

And oh, before i forget, you'll rather keep your mouth shut about honor et all, considering the way you started the recruitment within Ely before round 7 was even halfway through...

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally posted by Storebo
Well.. just saying since it was so important for u guys to use that reason about Legion leaving Elysium to leave Legion and start your own alliance u guys had a very good chance to do something back then. Considering u had the Gods gals, and a number of other members. U choose not to, had to secure the victory first right?

And for the statement... Ahriman's post was way to long... never bothered to read through it.

But I consider Honour the part who reflects that alliance's dealings with other alliances. And Loyalty the part which shows their loyalty within the alliance.

Using Loyalty the round after they mass-deflected from an alliance wasn't that nice imo. And Honour first act was to ally someone and leave them. And other stuff ofcourse.. Don't think either of thoose terms should be used by the Titans alliance. U can't pride yourself with thoose terms when having broken all of them.

Havent Sid told you to stop posting crap on AD?
You are a political n00b.

/sorry but someone had to say it.

[AlbinoSquirrel]

Originally posted by WebAngel

Baptism of fire, our motto was born...

Nice play on words. It did not go unnoticed.

Originally posted by Patrician


Wrong on almost every point! (However I can't be bothered correcting it, I'll leave that to someone who still feels the need to post seriously)

lo btw.

Sorry pat, miseed your post in all the other posts there

I should have said - that was my view as a member. I have no idea what was going on at HC level - I'm sure Titans HC and Deus HC had a few arguments, but from what I remember on the Deus message boards (am I allowed to say thisnow? ) the message from DXM HC to us members was that Titans were not allying with us, due to a change of policy or something like that.

Some of us were a bit annoyed, but I dont think anyone really felt betrayed?

[Patrician]

Originally posted by AlbinoSquirrel


Nice play on words. It did not go unnoticed.

In Knopfler we trust.

Originally posted by Garshaw


Sorry pat, miseed your post in all the other posts there

I should have said - that was my view as a member. I have no idea what was going on at HC level - I'm sure Titans HC and Deus HC had a few arguments, but from what I remember on the Deus message boards (am I allowed to say thisnow? ) the message from DXM HC to us members was that Titans were not allying with us, due to a change of policy or something like that.

Some of us were a bit annoyed, but I dont think anyone really felt betrayed?

I'd have to trawl through the board archives to see what our official line was, but going back to your original post:

The agreement had been made to ally hirr, ND, Titans - It was an agreement, not a mere suggestion.

We didn't necessarily have similar founding ideals, Titans made no claims regarding stagnation that I remember - However one similar feeling was the desire of hostility against Fury (laughable eh?).

We had allied with hirr and ND, and added WP/NoS to that group. Later on we came to an agreement with XETA, which eventually (not straight away) turned into a NAP with military (offensive) cooperation.

As for betrayal - The HC were more than slightly annoyed, mainly due to the fact Titans HC tried to play us as fools, keeping us hanging for weeks while they 'sorted the finer details of their alliance' etc, which made our lives that bit harder (as we had such a small timeframe to set up the alliance and establish diplomatic relations).

To me, their time wasting was more irritating than them running back to Legion. As for their motto - it has nothing whatsoever to do with Titans as an alliance.

[themast]

how long left is there of round 8

themast

4D

MoW 20:8:11 in round 6
MoD 20:2:10 in round 7


Might and Greed will never outweigh Honour and loyalty

Originally posted by Storebo

Using Loyalty the round after they mass-deflected from an alliance wasn't that nice imo. And Honour first act was to ally someone and leave them. And other stuff ofcourse.. Don't think either of thoose terms should be used by the Titans alliance. U can't pride yourself with thoose terms when having broken all of them.

You can be loyal to an alliance and the ideals it represents without being loyal to the inept poeple in command at the time. Unlike real world situations many alliances are not democracies and therefor the members dont get the chance to pick the ruleing parties. The command of legion became corrupted (yes in our opinion) and this corruption spread like a disease as the people in question recruited more people with the same mindset.

Yes we left legion to form a new alliance, an alliance which has the same qualaties as what we thought the values of legion stood for. This is not disloyalty this is being loyal to your friends and the people you care for.

You are not in a position to lecture anything to us, you who leaves an alliance the second things get diffuclt and go hide inside the castle walls that are fury....

Even when there you make a fool out of yourself at every opertunity by falsly predicting victories and getting a slap on the wrist by fury command.

Is there anything in PA you have ever created thats worth anything ? thats withstanded sustained punishment to come out even stronger ? or do most things actually become stronger AFTER you leave ?

Yes I know this is a long boring post but storebo you reallu begin to annoy me by dirtying the titans name with your obsession regarding us and deus, to say you are biased would be to call the polar icecaps a little chilly.

[Demented Turnip]

Honor is in how you treat your enemies and Loyalty is in how you treat your friends. It is difficult, if not impossible, to keep both at high levels at the same time in a war game the way the terms are normally thought of. But these words have taken on new meaning in this particular game so I still don't have a sense of what it means for Titans.

This is not a dig as it seems everyone has their own opinion of what is honorable or not. It seems it is no longer honorable to attack someone for roids after they lost their fleet. Perhaps soon we will be required to wait until someone is awake before we're allowed to launch an attack.

[xtothez]

Originally posted by Storebo
Elysium round 4...

Was Elysium round 4 the same as Elysium round 8? Oh look, the other 999 lines of your arguement on that point just became invalid...

Originally posted by Storebo
Think u are trying to hard to misunderstand me.... because clarly u can't be this stupid... or maybe u can?
It is about the ones in charge and how they look at stuff. Don't think Elysium would betray Wolfpack or Wolfpack betray Elysium even if it came to stagnation.. Or maybe u have other views?
This is directed towards alliances real honour... not ways to backstabb each other and save the round. When u have made a deal u stick by it.. that is honour.

In the event of stagnation, Ely would only turn to war with WP if war was agreed mutally with WP HC. Elysium has made a point to never backstab another ally. Most recent point was the end of last round where Xanadu decided to have some fun wiht Dingo. No matter the actual opinions of the Elysium members and command at the time of Dingo and his alliance, Elysium stood firm in not allowing its fleets to launch at Dingo's planet. We had agreed to an alliance for one full round, and we kept it. There may have been only 3 days of the round left, but the agreement wasn't broken. Another one of your arguements nullified.

Every thought of taking up trainspotting? Its much less embarrasing than these AD posts you produce.

[Storebo]

Originally posted by grkn
The difference was that none who joined Elysium during the mass recruitment was promised "a small elite alliance", quite contrary to what was promised to Adelante recruits.

And oh, before i forget, you'll rather keep your mouth shut about honor et all, considering the way you started the recruitment within Ely before round 7 was even halfway through...

If u are going to belive what your HC tells u... ask Stress he was and is my friend and knows what went on. And there was no open recruitment.. It was a friends thingy and there was no more then 10-15 elys joining... And there wasn't planning anything more open stuff.. And infact.. I didn't even think that though about my own alliance before spinner announced random for the coming round. Then I wanted to play with my friends because Elysium didn't feel like home anymore. Before that I just wanted an attackgroup.

[Storebo]

Originally posted by xtothez

Was Elysium round 4 the same as Elysium round 8? Oh look, the other 999 lines of your arguement on that point just became invalid...

Not the case.... what was done there and then save Elysium for another couple rounds more..

Originally posted by xtothez

In the event of stagnation, Ely would only turn to war with WP if war was agreed mutally with WP HC. Elysium has made a point to never backstab another ally. Most recent point was the end of last round where Xanadu decided to have some fun wiht Dingo. No matter the actual opinions of the Elysium members and command at the time of Dingo and his alliance, Elysium stood firm in not allowing its fleets to launch at Dingo's planet. We had agreed to an alliance for one full round, and we kept it. There may have been only 3 days of the round left, but the agreement wasn't broken. Another one of your arguements nullified.

Heh... u are stupid.. u just agreed with me and trying to taunt me.. Was why I stayed Elysium for so long. Honour.. They wouldn't backstab. My claims is alliances like wp/ely have more honour then titans

[xtothez]

Originally posted by Storebo
Not the case.... what was done there and then save Elysium for another couple rounds more..

I'm sorry, English is my first language, could you translate that please?

Originally posted by Storebo
Heh... u are stupid.. u just agreed with me and trying to taunt me.. Was why I stayed Elysium for so long. Honour.. They wouldn't backstab. My claims is alliances like wp/ely have more honour then titans

Did you read my post?
If one of the reasons for Gods leaving Legion was the way in which VtS HC fked over Ely, surely that gives them some credit? And the fact that they waited until the end of the round to do so, rather than attacking their own HC mid-round improves this point. VtS had several weeks between rounds to talk to Titans HC and discuss what happened from there. Whereas Fury went up against galaxies with their own members in before the end of the round, in order to be #1. Who has the honour?

Originally posted by Storebo
And for the statement... Ahriman's post was way to long... never bothered to read through it.

This does pretty much sum you up.

[Scouse]

Originally posted by Storebo

Using Loyalty the round after they mass-deflected from an alliance wasn't that nice imo. And Honour first act was to ally someone and leave them. And other stuff ofcourse.. Don't think either of thoose terms should be used by the Titans alliance. U can't pride yourself with thoose terms when having broken all of them.

Leaving an alliance inbetween rounds is perfectly acceptable in any situation. I have never had any problems with that, and very few people do. We remained loyal to Legion till the end of the round.

And it's 'defecting', not 'deflecting'. Defecting is when a person or goup leaves their alliance for another side to save themselves. ie. No loyalty whatsoever.

[SpazMonster]

Let me pose a question to you all...

Why does it matter? either way, saying, no saying, if there's meaning or not behind it, why does anyone care? Is it really that important to someone that an alliance motto carry more weight than their own actions in life? What's the fuss all about?

[Silva baby]

Originally posted by Storebo


Not the case.... what was done there and then save Elysium for another couple rounds more..



Heh... u are stupid.. u just agreed with me and trying to taunt me.. Was why I stayed Elysium for so long. Honour.. They wouldn't backstab. My claims is alliances like wp/ely have more honour then titans

honour my ass Storebo u know very well if it was honour then Titans would have more then Adelante~

[HobbieRogue4]

Originally posted by SpazMonster
Why does it matter? either way, saying, no saying, if there's meaning or not behind it, why does anyone care? Is it really that important to someone that an alliance motto carry more weight than their own actions in life? What's the fuss all about?

If one chooses to play with such mentality, yes, of course it matters. We('ve) all play(ed) Planetarion for various reasons: fun, people, to win, boredom, cybersex, leg whoring, etc. and some people choose to play with a mentality. Some choose to get very personal, some choose to distance themeselves so as to avoid things. Some choose to base their playing experience around 'honor' for whatever means, others choose the opposite extreme of playing with 'dishonor' for possibly those same means.

Winning is the ultimate goal. How one achieves that is entirely their business, but of course not everyone will agree with them.

[JonnyBGood]

It really all depends on what you take the motto as. At face value "honour and loyalty" is simply the motto as applied to all aspects of life. However it most certainly does not in this case as it quite clearly applies only to PA related matters (I doubt anyone will find cause to disagree here). Surely then it cannot be said to be absolute and apply to all things of one's choosing. Therefore it can only represent a certain dimension of the subject's choosing. As the original aim of the motto was to represent a certain area of action in PA, namely those concerned with alliance matters, it is irrational to conclude it has any bearing on anything else without proof which we have already shown to be absent.

As the motto was, as i recall and already stated, not established by the HC it is logical to assume that it was in fact the members who first utilised this phrase. They as such have made only one agreement, to their alliance upon their joining. Thusly as one can see that the only area of cross-over between the phrase "honour and loyalty", in this particular context, and the area it is meant for, matters pertaining to one's own alliance, it is totally pointless to speculate on the relationship between the ideals proposed in "honour and loyalty" and any inter-alliance dealings.

[Eol]

Originally posted by Storebo
Well.. just saying since it was so important for u guys to use that reason about Legion leaving Elysium to leave Legion and start your own alliance u guys had a very good chance to do something back then. Considering u had the Gods gals, and a number of other members. U choose not to, had to secure the victory first right?

Storebo, that's nonsensical. If rebelling actively every time you disagreed with something is termed as 'honourable' then nothing would work. We disagreed, made our thoughts, and stayed loyal to Legion. Is that dishonourable? Should we have defected or split the second we disagreed with Legion policy? Please.

Edit: Ado's post pretty much summed things up. Face it, we felt that we would be able to change things in legion. He hoped we would, and wanted to, because we were loyal to our alliance. When it turned out this wasn't going to happen (with Biggdogg sementing his hold on the alliance) we left between-rounds. We could have waited two weeks into the round, and damaged FLTV quite considerably. But we didn't, because we felt it would be dishonourable.

As for Deus, internal struggles dragged out time and ultimately destroyed that alliance - the Titans that stayed there weren't happy about this at all at the time. But it happened, and HC at the time felt that it was considerably more important to preserve Titans as an alliance *then*. Ie, yes, we swallowed our pride there to stay alive. I don't think any Titan present then and now regrets that all that much now.

Consortium, we got framed for something we didn't instigate - though I would not say it was not something we did not want after Fury tried to muscle their way at valy for piss-poor rep-taped reasons. If a member changes alliance, are you really going to spend all that much energy trying to 'punish' her? It was a lame excuse to have a go at Titans, not at valy, and I'm damn proud we said no. I don't think Fury expected that either. The tone from them was one of disbelief... 'You dare go against the mighty Fury?'

God, Storebo, you're just becoming more and more tasteless. Fling your dirt at us, we have nothing to hide.

[cypher]

tbh who cares what you all think of titans?
facts are:
hardly anyone leaves titans
we have fun
we do as we want in a fun way
most people that left regret it or have wanted to come back at one point or another
we always been considered a top alliance by everyone even tho people say we're **** on boards
lots of friendships irl have come from titans
we stand by our alliance

i could go on with this. but it would be useless.
point is, who cares if someone like Storebo doesn't like us? that's his problem clearly the fact no-one wanted him in ely....adelante got screwed up shows something...

if people don't like our slogan it's their problem. The Titan members are who matter for us and aslong as they are happy......

p.s. don't go complaining about my writing again it's late and i haven't used THAT many smilies this time

[Iceaxe]

Originally posted by WebAngel
28:11 did pretty well (#1 gal for about one month). Then Xeta and Deus and co went very effective and took down FLTV very soon. Many gals defected and 28.11 was told to defect like all the other big gals. Instead of that we have decided to stand and fight with honour and to stay loyal to our alliance even if that decision meant to be under attack 7/24.

Was this before or after you and Aequitas talked about the ceasefire between Xeta and your galaxy and your possible defection?

[Storebo]

Originally posted by Eol


Storebo, that's nonsensical. If rebelling actively every time you disagreed with something is termed as 'honourable' then nothing would work. We disagreed, made our thoughts, and stayed loyal to Legion. Is that dishonourable? Should we have defected or split the second we disagreed with Legion policy? Please.

U where planing it before the round ended right? I'm saying that u badly needed the gods gals on top to give Titans a good image.. And that I didn't take the honour point on... I refere to that as loyalty. Legion kept u guy up there... Right after round ended u split. Honour point is about the deus thingy etc.. Know u felt bad about that aswell. And I'm not gonna question that Honour and Loyalty gal in round 6... They where on both sides from the start kinda. Checking with both parts.. And then when all furgion gals where falling from top100 like stones they where still xeta/deus lapdogs.. until xeta/fos decided to take them down..

Btw who was "Titans_HC" ?? =)

[Iceaxe]

Originally posted by Storebo
And I'm not gonna question that Honour and Loyalty gal in round 6... They where on both sides from the start kinda. Checking with both parts.. And then when all furgion gals where falling from top100 like stones they where still xeta/deus lapdogs.. until xeta/fos decided to take them down..

Beat ya too it storebo.

[Stress]

Originally posted by Iceaxe


Was this before or after you and Aequitas talked about the ceasefire between Xeta and your galaxy and your possible defection?

now where did i put that meeting log

btw im neutral!

[Eol]

Originally posted by Storebo


U where planing it before the round ended right? I'm saying that u badly needed the gods gals on top to give Titans a good image.. And that I didn't take the honour point on... I refere to that as loyalty. Legion kept u guy up there... Right after round ended u split. Honour point is about the deus thingy etc.. Know u felt bad about that aswell. And I'm not gonna question that Honour and Loyalty gal in round 6... They where on both sides from the start kinda. Checking with both parts.. And then when all furgion gals where falling from top100 like stones they where still xeta/deus lapdogs.. until xeta/fos decided to take them down..

Btw who was "Titans_HC" ?? =)

We were starting to talk about it, yes, as an option if we couldn't get any reform in Legion. And it would indeed have been disloyal to Legion who helped us win to defect, or have a different galname. We actually had an argument about that - I personally didn't want us to tag Legion for the end of the round, while Hearts decided we should.

Titans_HC was an account we all had access to, though I believe it was only used by myself once, for our 'existance' announcement. It was deemed appropriate to express our unity - also I don't think we felt especially secure at the time (though I can only speak for myself there). I don't care if you thought it was lame or not, it can hardly beat you.

[Stress]

Eol thats not exactly true... the gal in question actually clamed to have rights to a retall on Xeta ( roid run) after they where targeted... I wish i could find my logs but they are on another puter :/ this was more or less what lead to what happened to that gal eventually.

edit: i now se i completly missed your point hehe sorry damn please edit in a comment on that part. so i can seem to be hardcore AD poster etc... it would be apprishiated... ( and then remind me to edit all this out )

[xtothez]

Originally posted by Storebo
Btw who was "Titans_HC" ?? =)

Gunn3r
:p

[Eol]

Originally posted by Stress
Eol thats not exactly true... the gal in question actually clamed to have rights to a retall on Xeta ( roid run) after they where targeted... I wish i could find my logs but they are on another puter :/ this was more or less what lead to what happened to that gal eventually.

I don't know anything about mid-r6 stuff, I was sick and away, and I don't believe I posted anything about mid-r6 stuff either.

[Stress]

read my edit:9

[Iceaxe]

Stress I have those logs from #meetus

I wouldn't be starting something if I didn't have evidence to back it up.