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Unread 27 Jan 2016, 01:08   #1
Tiamat101
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Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

I propose re-arranging the Tech Tree for covert ops.

Network(agent steal)
Defection(Guard kill)
Research
Anarchy
Portable Emp(Amps/dist)
Structure
Bank hack
Ship steal


Since the change to Ship kill 6 or so rounds ago it's been used quite a lot as a starting Strategy from t24. Several alliances have included it into their pre-round stats plan. Which I think is cool, creative and not the problem. However I do think the problem is how easily accessed it is, Most races can have ship steal by pt24 with very little commitment on their part. I should know i've done it 2 or 3 times already. I dont want it removed because it adds a dynamic aspect to the game I just would like to see planets have to commit for it instead of just spending their start up on it and then go back to normal after they get their pods.

It has been observed by most that the PA team has done a fairly bad job at monitoring the farming of ships and only a handful of planet get closed for it. Which is why I also would like to speed up the rate at which planets get c200'd so that these "farms" would be taken out of the universe much quicker.
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Unread 27 Jan 2016, 04:26   #2
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

I thought it was pretty common knowledge, since most people go Democracy as a Government (at fist) to put your idle ("base") fleet(s) in prelaunch perpetually...so as to keep the afore-mentioned covert ops folks reduced to research hacking, and generally pissing in the wind.

You raise a fair point, but there's a counter argument to it. It's annoying, but perfectly "legal" as far as I can tell.

Perhaps the discussion should be about more active MH's or something along those lines?


*Edit* You've obviously come across something thread-worthy, so I'm all ears...
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Unread 27 Jan 2016, 06:15   #3
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

Covert ops rarely impacts anyone that's actually playing other than for the 1st 100 ticks when people don't really have guards/sec centers and their alert is already low because of demo. It is an abusive system now that feeds off the inactive/idle/cousins/farms. If you move the ship steal research to the end or even 2nd to last it will not be achievable till pt50~~ if your willing to bonus into it or are cath demo. Thus making less of a "splash" and more of a commitment.
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Unread 27 Jan 2016, 08:05   #4
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

Trace the farms.

I don't see why you should punish the genuine cov oppers and make the game even less strategy based by having them go to the end of the tech tree. Stupid.

Like the nerf of MC's, if you keep nerfing these things, you make the game a value play and boring as f*ck
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Unread 27 Jan 2016, 11:22   #5
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

Increasing the cost of ship stealing from 8400RP to 22800RP or 30000RP will make it completely unusable. If that is your goal, state so clearly. If not, I suggest adjust your proposal.
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Unread 27 Jan 2016, 18:04   #6
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

That was the goal to make it not an easy strat. Since the PA staff are unable to correctly monitor the farms and it has been proven with bank hack that moving the most used cov op further back in the tree.
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Unread 28 Jan 2016, 02:06   #7
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

How exactly do you prevent someone from creating a planet #2, building some ships with primarily pods, and never/rarely logging in again while stealing from planet #1? It is impossible to stop or catch cheaters 'farming' with covert ops. How do you differentiate between a farm and someone that simply lost interest after the initial setup?

That said, I do wish the Covert Op tree was changed - put something other than the terrible Asteroid operation first (Guard steal would be my personal preference, it's a nice risk/reward option), and move the Ship Covert op down one or two.

Also, reducing the minimum steal off of planets much smaller than yourself by a large margin should help reduce farming past the first week.
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Unread 28 Jan 2016, 09:39   #8
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

What we need is not to make Covops harder. Ship covops add a an extra route to how you can progress your round and it should be encouraged rather then discouraged.

If anything, the 100% immunity on 99% of the planets is what should be changed. I should be able to covop just about anyone in the universe, altough this doesn't mean I should be able to do it every tick, and that it should be instant. (A covop mission could take 12 ticks, and could have partial success: Eg: 4 out of the 10 agents i sent on a mission manage to steal ships, because the target' security was so tight. The others were cought and interrogated and gave up the secrets of a technology, resulting in an rp gain for the target planet.)
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Unread 28 Jan 2016, 10:05   #9
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

I am ok with that assesment. My problem is that its too easy to gain access to ship steal, and it still requires 50+ ticks to get jumpgates.
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Unread 28 Jan 2016, 10:19   #10
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
I am ok with that assesment. My problem is that its too easy to gain access to ship steal, and it still requires 50+ ticks to get jumpgates.
Even as a demo cat it's a 40-tick detour to get ship-covop. While this isn't big, its certainly considerable during the first 200 ticks of the round (where ship-covop is most succesfull).

BTW: an easier solution to get everyone able to covop is probably just removing the Security Slider. If u want to be immune: pay for it.
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Unread 28 Jan 2016, 10:24   #11
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

Its actually not, caths can have it well before pt24 along with 5k+ rp
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Unread 28 Jan 2016, 10:26   #12
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Its actually not, caths can have it well before pt24 along with 5k+ rp
If they invest their startup bonus. That doesn't change the fact it's a 40tick detour

Must admit, I don't know the rp/tick of a cat/demo. Doesn't change they have to invest 8k+ rp tough which could be used in other useful things.
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Unread 28 Jan 2016, 10:59   #13
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

8200 Rp isnt enough for the gain that you will get for having ship steal. The fact that you can use ship steal to cov op your way into pods b4 even having factory/hulls and can stay small enough to be able to pod land a normal planet and gain huge score gains. The fact that you can steal pods at pt24 and use them to attack a planet that cant defend and even on a 300 roid 100k value planet at pt38 you can gain 70-150k score. Not to mention that you can use Research hack to make up the 8200 RP with ~~ 50 cov ops, which caths can have done by about pt250. However they wont, what cov op means is that planets stay in Demo 40-50 ticks longer before anarchy into either total/corp.
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Unread 28 Jan 2016, 11:58   #14
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
That was the goal to make it not an easy strat.
This response does not answer my question, it's just a repetition of the statement that prompted that question in the first place. Your suggestion does not achieve your stated goal of reducing its strength while keeping it viable. What it does is make it worthless. Is that your goal, yes or no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
8200 Rp isnt enough for the gain that you will get for having ship steal. The fact that you can use ship steal to cov op your way into pods b4 even having factory/hulls and can stay small enough to be able to pod land a normal planet and gain huge score gains. The fact that you can steal pods at pt24 and use them to attack a planet that cant defend and even on a 300 roid 100k value planet at pt38 you can gain 70-150k score. Not to mention that you can use Research hack to make up the 8200 RP with ~~ 50 cov ops, which caths can have done by about pt250. However they wont, what cov op means is that planets stay in Demo 40-50 ticks longer before anarchy into either total/corp.
It's better to use 8400 RP to cov op pods than to use 2400 RP to just build them yourself? It's better to spend an extra (8400 - 2400 = ) 5800 RP at tick 0 and catch up after ~175 ticks than to just play standard?

All your posts are doing is convincing me that you're exaggerating how much of a problem this actually is.


(I like berten's idea of partial successes, but that's a different subject.)
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 28 Jan 2016 at 12:20.
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Unread 28 Jan 2016, 12:45   #15
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

If you don't have to take your 6m startup resources to get ships, it just gives you more options later, also being able to keep your value 40k lower than 98% of the universe means that you able to hide pretty well. Atleast until you have enough time to get cores done. 8400 Rp is 1200rp less than than magma cores. 8400 Rp is barly a scratch given that you can still do a cores rush, while having access to ships to give you xp lands.

Where as in order for scanners to be useful they must give up the 1st 35 ticks(cath) for jpgs while Terran scanners wont get Au till pt80+ depending on bonus use. This is my point a scanner has to commit the first 2 days + all their startup to get to jpgs and another 40 ticks for AU. While a cov op planet can have ships pt24 ready to attack the same tick and with so many targets at pt24 able to get enough pods to cap 40-50 roids with 1 steal its a totally viable strat.

Even if you just go strait into hulls1 or hct1 you will still have ships attacking for pt24 and if they are cr/bs then you have gotten 2400(hulls1) 4800(hulls2) 7200(hulls3) research esentially for free, which to me is WELL worth the 8400 RP you spent to get it. This strat by all means isnt for everyone however it is still a strat to be put in the same catagory as ter cores + refs Total. Which i did last round. With out even launching an attack I was able to prod myself into a t50 value by pt200 with no risk of being attacking/roided as most of that time i was under 100 roids.

My point I am trying to make is I would like to see non-cath cov opers have to spend upgrade bonus in order to get ship steal by pt24 and honestly i would like to see most of them getting ship steal around pt72 around the same time as scanners get AU scans. As they are equally as useful.

I also want to agree with Berten I think it should be much harder for people to resist cov ops or atleast more expensive. If we honestly want to make this a part of the game then it shouldnt be made useless by pt200 because of guards/sec/pop/gov. You should have to commit a bit harder to keeping yourself protected, such as having some cov ops that cant be blocked if a certain number of agents are used or maybe a cov op that cant be blocked at all like landing scans and unit scans.

As it stands cov ops are the least researched tree in all of PA because of how useless they are after the beginning of the round. However I just want to limit the pt24-pt72 impact of ship steal. That is all. I am open to a lot of ideas but something should be changed.
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Unread 28 Jan 2016, 13:41   #16
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
My point I am trying to make is I would like to see non-cath cov opers have to spend upgrade bonus in order to get ship steal by pt24 and honestly i would like to see most of them getting ship steal around pt72 around the same time as scanners get AU scans. As they are equally as useful.
You're trolling, right?
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Unread 28 Jan 2016, 14:22   #17
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Not to mention that you can use Research hack to make up the 8200 RP with ~~ 50 cov ops, which caths can have done by about pt250
You certainly don't need 50 covops to steal 8200 RP.
(And the number of covops is a useless metric - what counts is how effective these were which depends on the number of agents)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Where as in order for scanners to be useful they must give up the 1st 35 ticks(cath) for jpgs while Terran scanners wont get Au till pt80+ depending on bonus use. This is my point a scanner has to commit the first 2 days + all their startup to get to jpgs and another 40 ticks for AU.
A scanner doesn't have to do that..
In fact, this round I started with covop first - up until research steal - which I finished at PT 25 or PT 26, then did the quests for the D scan and then continued scan research..

The end result: without taking upgrade bonus: my JPGs were slightly later, my Advanced units scans were done a couple ticks before other Cat scanners had it (again, not using upgrading bonus).. And unlike other Cat scanners I had first hulls and covop researched...
It of course required some skill in selecting the targets from which to steal research from..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
As it stands cov ops are the least researched tree in all of PA because of how useless they are after the beginning of the round. However I just want to limit the pt24-pt72 impact of ship steal. That is all. I am open to a lot of ideas but something should be changed.
Please define 'beginning of the round'.. 100ticks? 200 ticks? 500 ticks? 1000 ticks?
The further into the round the harder covops get.. That is true but these are far from impossible, even on active/top planets.
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Unread 28 Jan 2016, 15:20   #18
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

I agree on the part resisting cov op should be more expensive. After one can put population into Security it becomes too easy and cheap to be immune. There could be something else to use Population after main Researchs are done so Security doesnt become the only place to place pop.
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Unread 28 Jan 2016, 15:55   #19
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

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Originally Posted by fortran View Post
I agree on the part resisting cov op should be more expensive. After one can put population into Security it becomes too easy and cheap to be immune. There could be something else to use Population after main Researchs are done so Security doesnt become the only place to place pop.
I like this idea, as well as berten's line of thinking. Seems most logical and follows my point of view.

Tia probably just has a gripe that he was roided by a fake. Saying that you want Non-Cat to use their bonus on it is just ridiculous.
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Unread 28 Jan 2016, 20:51   #20
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

It's not ridiculous I also started this round as Cov op, Xan. I was able to have ship steal by pt24 and was able to steal enough pods at pt24 to attack at pt25, I had not taken my startup resources nor had i init more than 30 roid. I was able to land pt 37 for 40 roids and 60k score while not having any hulls research. Infact I did not research hulls until pt 100ish because i went strait into cores. After i had stolen the pods that I wanted for the round i moved into research hacking which got me a fairly quick cores 4. This strat is what i want to prevent. I don't want people to be able to use startup research + pt0-pt24 research and be able to have ship steal research that's my only gripe.
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Unread 28 Jan 2016, 22:12   #21
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

Exactly. It's not upto you to say what's right and wrong.

But what is wrong is people like you try to make the game so f*cking boring by removing another valid strategy. If you want people to fall using this strategy then simply tell your fellow ally members to get guards...the counter measure that everyone can put in place voluntarily!
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Unread 28 Jan 2016, 23:50   #22
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

Krypton I dont want to remove Cov ops, i just want to make it less exploited by moving ship steal another 4-7k RP down to cov op tree. Thus making it less available for pt24-72.
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Unread 29 Jan 2016, 00:15   #23
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

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I had not taken my startup resources nor had i init more than 30 roid. I was able to land pt 37 for 40 roids and 60k score while not having any hulls research.
No such planet exists.. please double check your numbers...
Or maybe you masked your race.. but then you masked it as the race with the slowest research further reducing the value of your numbers.
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Unread 29 Jan 2016, 03:19   #24
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Re: Changing the Covert Op's Tech Tree

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Trace the farms.

I don't see why you should punish the genuine cov oppers and make the game even less strategy based by having them go to the end of the tech tree. Stupid.

Like the nerf of MC's, if you keep nerfing these things, you make the game a value play and boring as f*ck
Half the univers was using the same farms.
I had more than enough FI pods pretty early this round.
Everybody can covopp, and as long there is still planets doing 50/50 pods/ships wich you can "bum rush" with 50 agents everytime, its not that hard IF you can locate all the farms quick enough.
Is it a waterproof tactic? Hell no, its pretty risky unless you own farms yourself.
I how ever dont see why we should remove all the "options" in this game just because they can be exploited.
We will see a game wich is based on not attacking and only warring the mining page(wich carDi proved can be abused too )
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