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Unread 4 Jul 2018, 19:04   #1
Atilla
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Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

As the title suggest.. EXP is way to easy to play as, value doesnt matter.. atm the top value planet is at 69th place and hes got 600k more value more than #2..

Currently you do not gain much from actually doing what the game is about.. getting fleet, killing ships, getting more roids... war in general. EXP is becoming a plague to this game. Fleet catching doesnt even matter.

Exp play encourages no defensive fleet or effort.. building a minimal amount of fleet. No matter what kind of stats we have an ambitious/full ally should always strike a balance between attacking fleet and defensive fleet. as it currently stands top 1 value ally has 270mill value and about 100 mill more value than #1 ally.

So please remove exp or nerf it.. nerf it a lot.. if you keep insisting on keeping exp in the game make a way that we can remove the exp score.. Negative exp? from being landed or some stuff like that... but as it is, it is problematic that we cannot counter exp, such as you can with value planets.

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Unread 4 Jul 2018, 19:25   #2
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

How many of the past 10 multitargetting stats was won by a XP planet?
And how many of those rounds did XP planets dominate the top10?

After youve done the research, and reported the results here this discussion could be continued.



Its realy not a discussion wether XP is "overpowered" in rounds like this, or in ST rounds, but in general, ie: "normal rounds".
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Unread 4 Jul 2018, 20:27   #3
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

frankly it doesnt really matter.. a single round like this is bad enough.. it doesnt add any functions to the game. it promotes a type of play that requires no effort, keep fleet as small as possible and no defensive ships as it only adds to you´re value and that results in less score getting added when landing. Also its score you cant take away.. which in it self is a horrible horrible thing for a game such as this. Now if you can find a decent way of being able to have exp planets also lose score by being landed or something like that.. then keep it as then they would also be forced to defend themselves in some manner of way.. as it is now its just a horrible way of gaining score.
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Unread 4 Jul 2018, 20:52   #4
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

XP courages to hit above u instead of hit the low values so the purpose is great! The XP should be however turned back in to own value, as an idle score its useless.
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Unread 4 Jul 2018, 21:04   #5
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

The problem is that it permanently increases you´re overall score and it cant be reduced by any means in the game.. which means its an overall easy way of abusing it. This is resulting in people artificially keeping their value very low and keeping an artificial low value is probably the most detrimental thing you want in a war game.. one should ALWAYS encourage building ships.. not the the other way around.

Another way to encourage the the mechanic would be to not give score gain but maybe a resource boost so that player could gain value in form of ships. <-- this idea was not thought through but just a simple idea of how to change the mechanic to something that is more usefull ingame.. than just simply gaining score that you cant lose.
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Unread 4 Jul 2018, 21:29   #6
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

The xp shouldnt give score, but resources Also I dont understand why score affects xp so little, when it desides the winner of the game.

If big score affects to gaining xp, theres no reason to hide value anymore.
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Unread 4 Jul 2018, 22:02   #7
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by Atilla View Post
frankly it doesnt really matter.. a single round like this is bad enough.. it doesnt add any functions to the game. it promotes a type of play that requires no effort, keep fleet as small as possible and no defensive ships as it only adds to you´re value and that results in less score getting added when landing. Also its score you cant take away.. which in it self is a horrible horrible thing for a game such as this. Now if you can find a decent way of being able to have exp planets also lose score by being landed or something like that.. then keep it as then they would also be forced to defend themselves in some manner of way.. as it is now its just a horrible way of gaining score.
You arguments is void.
If it was such a overpowered feature, you would see everyone go it in every round.
If you dont like offensive stats, you should instead make a thread about never doing them ever again, or better contribute with stats of your own for next round.

Fleet catching players for troll like Norse and HEROES/Ascendancy has been doing however, that is a horribole thing for this game.
The term know as "Greifer" is so well known in online gaming, it even got an wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer
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Unread 4 Jul 2018, 22:19   #8
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

Bbutcher, instead of just claiming that the argument is void please tell me what is so great about XP and how it works? you´ve only progressed to claiming things yourself so please give me some facts to back up you´re claims.

Also XP has been abused several times over several rounds.. however sadly the historical data does not include value and score only score. If you have a place where that data is available then please refer me too it.

fleet catching is a function of a war game.. all allies can and should use it as a good tool.. and not only smaller allies use it.. and it should be a thing in a game so that allies doe ensure they have defensive fleets else we might just play a game with just offsenive stats and no defensive states... you´re arguments you could say are void...

There should always be a danger element in a game if not its a poorly designed war game.

also you should probably read that page about greifing closer.. or are you just applying meaning to the word griefing to fit your own perspective..? most of the smaller allies work in tandem with bigger allies and will use the tools they have to ensure that their members do well.

Implying that all smaller allies are just out to grief is disturbing, cause thats what you are doing.
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Unread 4 Jul 2018, 22:42   #9
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

See here for better historical data.

The last rounds that were won by XP planets were 74, 67 (a fluke: def XP) and 59. XP rounds are few and far between. You dislike them, but some people really enjoy them, and for that reason alone I think it's fine to have one every now and again. Honestly, a bit more often than we currently do, in my opinion.

With the current implementation of XP, the ship stats are what determine whether a round becomes an XP round or not. Since those are under 'our' (Jintao's) control, I don't see the problem.
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Unread 4 Jul 2018, 22:44   #10
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by Atilla View Post
Bbutcher, instead of just claiming that the argument is void please tell me what is so great about XP and how it works? you´ve only progressed to claiming things yourself so please give me some facts to back up you´re claims.

Also XP has been abused several times over several rounds.. however sadly the historical data does not include value and score only score. If you have a place where that data is available then please refer me too it.
http://beta.planetarion.com/history/...?id=1&round=76
XP has been abused, but not in the manner where you are "only building attack ships and trying to keep down value down".
Hiding value in resource stocks is a completely different thing, and is done by value alliances as much as XP alliances.



If you look through the "miscs stats" from the previous 5 rounds for a start, you could see that MCs simply hasnt been that viable.
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=201650
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=201581
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=201436
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=201382
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=201317


Quote:
Originally Posted by Atilla View Post
fleet catching is a function of a war game.. all allies can and should use it as a good tool.. and not only smaller allies use it.. and it should be a thing in a game so that allies doe ensure they have defensive fleets else we might just play a game with just offsenive stats and no defensive states... you´re arguments you could say are void...

There should always be a danger element in a game if not its a poorly designed war game.

also you should probably read that page about greifing closer.. or are you just applying meaning to the word griefing to fit your own perspective..? most of the smaller allies work in tandem with bigger allies and will use the tools they have to ensure that their members do well.

Implying that all smaller allies are just out to grief is disturbing, cause thats what you are doing.
Well its kinda hard for smaller tags to play competetive, so its not a war game for Norse and Asc/HEROES when they decide to continue to FC people continusly just for hitting them one time.

You dont see many other small tags focus half their round trying to ruin for some random people who have been hitting them in a _WAR GAME_.
So no, im not implying smaller tags are just out for griefing others, i how ever say its been well known that Norse & Asc/HEROES has made griefing their main focus throughout the history.
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Unread 4 Jul 2018, 23:04   #11
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
See here for better historical data.

The last rounds that were won by XP planets were 74, 67 (a fluke: def XP) and 59. XP rounds are few and far between. You dislike them, but some people really enjoy them, and for that reason alone I think it's fine to have one every now and again. Honestly, a bit more often than we currently do, in my opinion.

With the current implementation of XP, the ship stats are what determine whether a round becomes an XP round or not. Since those are under 'our' (Jintao's) control, I don't see the problem.
A few more rounds that you´ve not mentioned where XP has been competative with value even though it is a value round.. such as round 75, we did it with zonny. round 72 several XP planets in top 10 and a hybrid won. Round 67 which you mentioned was a travesty and 66 was also competative with xp planets. The other rounds i mentioned XP seems to be competative with value, which is great.. 1 more road leading to rome as one would say.. i´d love for there to be several ways to win in this game, however my gripes with XP is that its something you cant lose.. which means there is no defensive element to the gameplay. its just att att att, deliberately let people land you cause that means you get less value.. its a bad game mechanic. But if we could come up with something to alter that dynamic that would be great.
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Unread 4 Jul 2018, 23:16   #12
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
http://beta.planetarion.com/history/...?id=1&round=76
XP has been abused, but not in the manner where you are "only building attack ships and trying to keep down value down".
Hiding value in resource stocks is a completely different thing, and is done by value alliances as much as XP alliances.
XP has been abused, and pure xp planets do not bother to build defensive ships as they only add value to the planet which means less score gain when landing.. plenty of pure XP planets out there, just do a few AU and you´ll find them plenty fast enough.

The hiding value is a part of the game i don´t especially like but is part of the game.. its a by product of XP however as for the same reasons above, which is that the less value you have the more score you gain per land. However this could be limited by bringing back resource capture, which i did quiet enjoy.
Or ofcourse by changing the way XP works.

As for the griefing part, if you choose to see what we in norse or other smaller allies as griefing then thats your right. We dont.
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Unread 5 Jul 2018, 01:01   #13
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by Atilla View Post
XP has been abused, and pure xp planets do not bother to build defensive ships as they only add value to the planet which means less score gain when landing.. plenty of pure XP planets out there, just do a few AU and you´ll find them plenty fast enough.
Not building a certain type of ship is not abuse.
Its like saying theif spammers round 2 was abusing the steal ships, or Roman Fortress and the other laser turret spammers round 3 were abusing PDS.

By that logic def planets is abusers as they dont build attack ship.



What i meant by abuse is when people kept initating roids with the intend to give away, so they could get def XP and when someone effectively stopped someone from winning by asking another top planet to attack them the last tick, they would not defend, for a massive XP gain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atilla View Post
The hiding value is a part of the game i don´t especially like but is part of the game.. its a by product of XP however as for the same reasons above, which is that the less value you have the more score you gain per land. However this could be limited by bringing back resource capture, which i did quiet enjoy.
Or ofcourse by changing the way XP works.
The score gain you get from hiding value(for ref and finance center spammers) is minimal.
Wether the formula should be changed im not against, i dont see why it should be (total resources / 100).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atilla View Post
As for the griefing part, if you choose to see what we in norse or other smaller allies as griefing then thats your right. We dont.
Wich other "smaller allies" is known for FCing people?
And even when Norse(less) was 20 members more than my alliance, they kept FCing us for no reason what-so-ever(except for making sure they lost the round obviously).
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Unread 5 Jul 2018, 08:14   #14
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

XP or Value shouldn't matter if both meant attacking and defending, caring for your gal and ally mates, thinking and developping your strat...
This round is turning into a farce coz there is nothing of that. Only 3 fleeting in attacks everyday... no need to scan, just do your launches every morning... it takes a few minutes of your day.
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Unread 5 Jul 2018, 09:41   #15
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
XP or Value shouldn't matter if both meant attacking and defending, caring for your gal and ally mates, thinking and developping your strat...
This round is turning into a farce coz there is nothing of that. Only 3 fleeting in attacks everyday... no need to scan, just do your launches every morning... it takes a few minutes of your day.
Then why did so many alliances go for value?
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Unread 5 Jul 2018, 10:09   #16
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

Coz usually value fairs good enough even in a xp round... this round reminds me of the first round when XP was introduced.
For me it makes the game completely uninteresting (even worse than havoc), but if some people have fun... good for them.
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Unread 5 Jul 2018, 10:26   #17
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
Coz usually value fairs good enough even in a xp round... this round reminds me of the first round when XP was introduced.
For me it makes the game completely uninteresting (even worse than havoc), but if some people have fun... good for them.
There is not realy a discussion wether XP is more powerfull than value this round, as the rankings make that obvious, but when most of the planets set out to keep roids/value play before the round its quite baffling people complain about it afterwards.

If i was running a alliance, i would clearly prefer less offensive stats than this round has on offer, and i would rather see value/defence play a bigger part than it has done this round.

Comparing this round to round 10 is pointless, as XP was waaaaaaay different back then.
You would get XP based on ships killed in combat, if you killed a ship and had low low value you would gain massive XP.

After MCs was introduced its been changed multiple(?) times, and for the better.
What is a intersting discussion is the change to alliance war XP, wich i brought up in this thread: http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=201310
Letting the stats maker decide the XP formulae for their stats should also be considered to make sure that there is no rounds that is very loopsided one way or the other(value vs XP).
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Unread 5 Jul 2018, 10:50   #18
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

XPing should be limited. The current gameplay of the round kills the communities.

If everyone is single 3 fleeting and nobody is defending anymore. Not ingal, not the alliance. For what do you need other people? There is no team up needed and you kinda don't even need an alliance. You just need to know where the (semi) heat is and attack along.

XP in general is a good idea. But the alliances are messing up the gameplay with focus on MCs and 3 fleeting orders. There is an eays solution to fix this problem. Just limit the damn MCs to 60 and alliances wouldn't focus that much on XP.

see http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=201560
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Unread 5 Jul 2018, 11:23   #19
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by genosse27 View Post
XPing should be limited. The current gameplay of the round kills the communities.

If everyone is single 3 fleeting and nobody is defending anymore. Not ingal, not the alliance. For what do you need other people? There is no team up needed and you kinda don't even need an alliance. You just need to know where the (semi) heat is and attack along.
Some people said that value play killed the community, as people would rather spend the round NAPed to everyone that could threaten them with incs and roid the bottom tags.


After the "alliance defence fleet" was added way more planets was signed up with the sole purpose to defend only, and avaible defence fleets 24/7 changed the whole meta of the game.
Evidence in the inc stats suggested the amount of "gangbangs" increased as it was harder to break through alliances defence with the new addition.
To counter this, it was suggested that stats needed to be more offensive, and in addition to more gangbangs there is/was a "ketchup bottle effect" where a tag can lose most of their roids in one night cus they have a waaaay bigger amount of fleets incomming than they can possibly cover even when they are sending 180 defence fleets.


Also most of the XP gained extra these day is from alliance wars.
Even though the numbers naturaly has to be adjusted this could be a how the math works out:

score = (xp * 60) + value
score - value = xp * 60

If the XP tags has 4 million XP, and it was all gained through alliance wars, you could detract 30% of that wich would be around 70 million score.
If you detract 30% of the XP of the top3 tags, they would not be top3 anymore.
If you detract 30% of all top planets XP, there would not been many XP planets in top10.

So is MCs the deciding factor? No.
By this conclusion staying out of tag would not be possibole this round, if all XP was gained through wars.
The war XP has been changed, and it needed to be changed, but not the way i wanted/suggested it to be changed.
Top XP tag can get massive XP from ptargetting a smaller value tag, like Norse this round.
Warring tags below you in the rankings shouldnt be as profitable, war XP bonus should be based on rankings imho.

Quote:
Originally Posted by genosse27 View Post
XP in general is a good idea. But the alliances are messing up the gameplay with focus on MCs and 3 fleeting orders. There is an eays solution to fix this problem. Just limit the damn MCs to 60 and alliances wouldn't focus that much on XP.

see http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=201560
If alliances would predict there would be a XP slugfest only this round, there would been way more attack ships and MCs.
Ive seen certain value tags actualy spending stocks on defence ships tick 100 to try hurt/scare away the attacker. Nobody in the right mind would spend stock so they have 75% of their values in spectres early on if they had the foresight of how this round would/could be played out, or even if they bothered looking at the stats.
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Unread 5 Jul 2018, 12:00   #20
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Not building a certain type of ship is not abuse.
Its like saying theif spammers round 2 was abusing the steal ships, or Roman Fortress and the other laser turret spammers round 3 were abusing PDS.

By that logic def planets is abusers as they dont build attack ship.



What i meant by abuse is when people kept initating roids with the intend to give away, so they could get def XP and when someone effectively stopped someone from winning by asking another top planet to attack them the last tick, they would not defend, for a massive XP gain.
Sorry was a bit poorly written by me, i did not mean that the XP planets playing now are abusing anything (havnt been made aware if they are or not). As they are only using a mechanic as intended. My gripes is with how powerful that mechanic is compared with other mechanics. With the stats we have now you have to play XP or you will be left behind, value players have no way of getting into the round, no way of catching up, no way of staying competitive. And remember this round also have seen a massive resources gain with quests, so value has even had benefits which should highlight how effective XP is if stats are just slightly skewed in its favour.

I am arguing that XP if it stays should be rebalanced and have a mechanic that can also remove score such as a value planet can as their score is reflected mostly by value.

As for the abuse, its a mechanic that has been easy to be abused in the past, and could probably be abused in some way in the future.
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Unread 5 Jul 2018, 12:55   #21
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by Atilla View Post
My gripes is with how powerful that mechanic is compared with other mechanics. With the stats we have now you have to play XP or you will be left behind, value players have no way of getting into the round, no way of catching up, no way of staying competitive. And remember this round also have seen a massive resources gain with quests, so value has even had benefits which should highlight how effective XP is if stats are just slightly skewed in its favour.

I am arguing that XP if it stays should be rebalanced and have a mechanic that can also remove score such as a value planet can as their score is reflected mostly by value.

As for the abuse, its a mechanic that has been easy to be abused in the past, and could probably be abused in some way in the future.
Well the initial thread start isnt very spesific except "REMOVE XP/NERF XP".
As evidence posted by me and mz suggest, "normaly" XP is "very" weak, changing or nerfing in any other round than this basicly would be as powerfull as removing ti completely.



A "rubber band" effect is in most of the big videos games, balancing this is very hard though, and all of these games has a big development team and gets a lot of community input.

ie. Dota2 where you will gain more killing a opponent who has more value than you/a player on a team with more value than yours.
or CS 1.6 where you would gain more money each round based on how many rounds your team lost in a row.



XP has a lot of factors you need to pay attention to, before suggesting changing any of them.
Starting to look through the change log, https://game.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=changes , and past round data is a must.
Only then can you build up an argument to change any of the aspects in how XP is attained.

Trying to make up some dynamic formulae or a better formulae for war bonuses might be the way to go for a start.

Maybe bravery factor(XP) should also be based on the targets alliance total score compared to yours?
It would atleast give some sort of rubber band effect wich value alliance that has fallen behind could profit from.

Maybe it should be a "upkeep" like you got in certain games like warcraft 3 where you gain less resources(or XP for that matter) when youve reached a certain size?
It would stop alliances from rocketing ahead in XP/value.





While i dont mind people wanting to change something that shouldve be changed before this round stats was decided on, i think its potentialy harmfull to suggest changes/leaving it up to the admin to make changes, without atleast doing some sort of research beforehand or suggesting exactly what should be changed with XP.
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Unread 5 Jul 2018, 13:36   #22
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

xp based solely on score would help slow down "xp whores" as once they get into the top 30 their xp gains are slowly reduced as their targets are only ones ahead of them and therefor must hit up in order to maintain their position or fall behind due to value whores having a greater passive income.

As of tick 977 i can hit a rank 200+ planet for more xp than hitting a top 10 planet. The top 10 planets dont get as much incs because they dont have the value to contribute to xp so are less attractive.
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Unread 5 Jul 2018, 13:57   #23
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
xp based solely on score would help slow down "xp whores" as once they get into the top 30 their xp gains are slowly reduced as their targets are only ones ahead of them and therefor must hit up in order to maintain their position or fall behind due to value whores having a greater passive income.

As of tick 977 i can hit a rank 200+ planet for more xp than hitting a top 10 planet. The top 10 planets dont get as much incs because they dont have the value to contribute to xp so are less attractive.
XP whores hitting other XP whores will not slow them down this round, it would infact make it even more so that having little-to-no-value is more viable than having a bit of both.

Also hitting value heavy tags/tags that focus on defending, and landing it should be more valuable as its harder.


But having current XP being a part of the formulae could/should be considered, just need to be a bit more precise.
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Unread 5 Jul 2018, 16:16   #24
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

It's quite simple the problem. You should not be able to create a planet PT tick 800 and win the game. It's currently possible with these set of stats/quest & XP formuale.

XP is great. Pure Value would suck as everyone would noobbash
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Unread 7 Jul 2018, 03:43   #25
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

The fun part been the rotation of incs. None been untouchable because the xp pays of a visit. ��
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Unread 7 Jul 2018, 17:55   #26
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

I can see why XP is an annoying for some but it is a very fun element to the game. The ability to drastically increase your ranking from a landing a top planet and getting 10k+ XP is great to see. Removing it would slow down the pace of the game, which I'm not fond of. I am much more in favour of an offensive round and being to land an attack everyday than land one or twice a week.

I think the roid cap formula should be changed to score-based rather than value based. Currently:
"Stolen Roids of type X = asteroids of type x * (asteroids of type x / total number of asteroids) * ( 0.25 * (target_planet_value / your_planet_value) ^ 0.5)"

Value players are getting left behind not being able to cap as many roids. A top 100 value based player will struggle to find decent targets in current top 100.
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Unread 7 Jul 2018, 23:13   #27
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by Cowkimon View Post
I can see why XP is an annoying for some but it is a very fun element to the game. The ability to drastically increase your ranking from a landing a top planet and getting 10k+ XP is great to see. Removing it would slow down the pace of the game, which I'm not fond of. I am much more in favour of an offensive round and being to land an attack everyday than land one or twice a week.

I think the roid cap formula should be changed to score-based rather than value based. Currently:
"Stolen Roids of type X = asteroids of type x * (asteroids of type x / total number of asteroids) * ( 0.25 * (target_planet_value / your_planet_value) ^ 0.5)"

Value players are getting left behind not being able to cap as many roids. A top 100 value based player will struggle to find decent targets in current top 100.
Hate to comment, but this was just a stupid not to respond to. You say you want xp to be score based, when it's today both score and value? And when you propose a formula you just include value?

The asteroid of x shit makes no sense. and i'm pretty sure asteroid/total asteroid would be around 20-25%

I really see why you like xp, either you haven't paid attention at all to formulas and just launching attacks or you are just bad at the game.

On another note i think xp might play a very interesting part in the game, but i think that rounds like this is a bit stupid. It's about crashing the most. No def, just attack. Do that enough rounds and you kill the game. The game is about community.

I've chatted with jintao quite a few times, and i think some of the problem is the "balanced" stats. I call them paper rock scissor stats. So everyone want to land clean, every race should be open to same amount of classes etc. If we had a really inovative statmaker trying to balance with effs, AC, DC etc instead of init and it was allowed i think we might see more interesting rounds. I also think the xp formula could be up for a redo. I'm not thinking change the multipliers or integers, but find a way to reward combat.

Value rounds is boring cause you need a gangbang to land, xp rounds cause you just build attack ships. It's a war game, reward combat!
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Unread 7 Jul 2018, 23:46   #28
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Hate to comment, but this was just a stupid not to respond to. You say you want xp to be score based, when it's today both score and value? And when you propose a formula you just include value?

The asteroid of x shit makes no sense. and i'm pretty sure asteroid/total asteroid would be around 20-25%
He's quoting the formula from the manual. The current formula, as he said.

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Originally Posted by Sandvold View Post
I've chatted with jintao quite a few times, and i think some of the problem is the "balanced" stats. I call them paper rock scissor stats. So everyone want to land clean, every race should be open to same amount of classes etc. If we had a really inovative statmaker trying to balance with effs, AC, DC etc instead of init and it was allowed i think we might see more interesting rounds. I also think the xp formula could be up for a redo. I'm not thinking change the multipliers or integers, but find a way to reward combat.

Value rounds is boring cause you need a gangbang to land, xp rounds cause you just build attack ships. It's a war game, reward combat!
It is a war game, but any responsible general will tell you they'd rather take on smaller, weaker armies than big strong ones. You don't attack the Maginot Line, you go through Belgium. PA is the same. It rewards bringing overwhelming force so that your targets don't want to fight you, both on the level of planet vs. planet and that of alliance vs. alliance. Newbie farming and 5v1 alliance wars are not excesses, perpetrated by uniquely evil people ruining our fun. They're what the game has been designed to result in, intentionally or not. Mechanisms like the bash limit, progressive roid cap formula and XP have been introduced to counter the greatest pathologies, but at its core, the game hasn't moved away from its original premise, merely smoothed some of the sharpest edges.

Value is what allows you to cap roids, hold them, and help your friends hold theirs. Any time you give up a significant amount of it, even if you make all of it back in XP, not only do you sacrifice your current score, you reduce your future growth rate. Since you can't use value you don't have (you can't go into debt), preserving what little you've accumulated is of paramount importance. There are only a few circumstances in which this isn't true. I can think of 3: when your growth is mostly fueled by other means (during hard XP rounds), when there's little value to lose (at the start of the round), and when there is no 'future' left in which to grow (at the very end of the round).

You suggest that stats with many ships on the same init, balanced using AC/DC instead, will lead to more fighting, but it won't. It will just lead to more risk-aversion: initing, hitting downwards, gangbangs, teamups. It's the same thing that has happened in rounds with overly defensive stats.

Personally, I do not believe there is a solution. This problem can't be 'fixed' while still preserving the game such that it's recognizable to the current player base. PA is like Monopoly in a lot of ways: not designed to be fun. And yet, here we are.
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Unread 8 Jul 2018, 00:35   #29
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by Sandvold View Post

I've chatted with jintao quite a few times, and i think some of the problem is the "balanced" stats. I call them paper rock scissor stats. So everyone want to land clean, every race should be open to same amount of classes etc. If we had a really inovative statmaker trying to balance with effs, AC, DC etc instead of init and it was allowed i think we might see more interesting rounds. I also think the xp formula could be up for a redo. I'm not thinking change the multipliers or integers, but find a way to reward combat.

Value rounds is boring cause you need a gangbang to land, xp rounds cause you just build attack ships. It's a war game, reward combat!
Funnily enough i dont remember you being a major player in the stats discussion, infact the only active participant from your faction is one demanding rock-paper-scissors.

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Another defensive round coming up with these changes.
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Unread 8 Jul 2018, 02:23   #30
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by Sandvold View Post
Hate to comment, but this was just a stupid not to respond to. You say you want xp to be score based, when it's today both score and value? And when you propose a formula you just include value?

The asteroid of x shit makes no sense. and i'm pretty sure asteroid/total asteroid would be around 20-25%

I really see why you like xp, either you haven't paid attention at all to formulas and just launching attacks or you are just bad at the game.
Please be careful before throwing insults like that. It isn't constructive and doesn't look good on you.

I was merely quoting the current formula. If you have such a big problem with it then it only supports my argument.
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Unread 8 Jul 2018, 09:18   #31
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

I dont see anyone having more than obliquely mentioned the quests here. It seems to me that they have been a big contributor to the xping this round simply because there are so many roids sloshing around as the quests hand them out like sweeties and roids are a major component in xp gains.
So perhaps there should be less 30 of each roid quests.
I guess the flip side is that everyone likes having a wide choice of 1.5k roid targets every night.
If ppl dont want to switch roid quests to more bumper resource rewards and feel the old style xp rewards are dull then perhaps we could have a new type of reward say flagships - an otherwise unbuildable ship (probably a different one for each race) that would would be good but would be so limited in numbers that it wouldnt really upset the balance of the stats.
Possibly a too much of a headache for stats makers though.
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Unread 8 Jul 2018, 09:43   #32
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by Atilla View Post
The problem is that it permanently increases you´re overall score and it cant be reduced by any means in the game.. which means its an overall easy way of abusing it. This is resulting in people artificially keeping their value very low and keeping an artificial low value is probably the most detrimental thing you want in a war game.. one should ALWAYS encourage building ships.. not the the other way around.
Well perhaps the problem is not the ability to gain xp but rather not being able to LOSE it! Either xp should degrade so xpers need to keep running. Or else you should be able to steal other people's xp (retrofitted cargoships). This would make a huge difference; xp players with low value would suddenly have a problem in that they cant easily defend. Other people will come and steal their xp.
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Unread 8 Jul 2018, 09:47   #33
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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... Or else you should be able to steal other people's xp (retrofitted cargoships). This would make a huge difference
And/or a cov-op (kidnapping pilots) that does the same.
Not that I like this much as I've never done much cov-opping (did the 10 fist quest and gave up this round).

[edit]: They certainly shouldn't be called cargo ships; the idea that they fly in and load up the cargo ships is weird.
Lieutenant: "Captain, Sir, what are these solid blocks we are loading up?"
Captain: "That, lad, is experience"
Lieutenant: "What will be do with it"
Captain: "we will put it in the bank vaults and treasure it"

Perhaps they are intelligence ships, that hack the target planets data banks of attack strategies/star charts etc or perhaps they kidnap pilots as aforementioned
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Unread 8 Jul 2018, 10:03   #34
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
And/or a cov-op (kidnapping pilots) that does the same.
Not that I like this much as I've never done much cov-opping (did the 10 fist quest and gave up this round).
A cov op is unlikely to be big enough to make much difference on its own. And if it were it would then probably be op.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
If ppl dont want to switch roid quests to more bumper resource rewards and feel the old style xp rewards are dull then perhaps we could have a new type of reward say flagships - an otherwise unbuildable ship (probably a different one for each race) that would would be good but would be so limited in numbers that it wouldnt really upset the balance of the stats.
Possibly a too much of a headache for stats makers though.
I have a suspicion that people wont like super duper ships even in small numbers.
Instead I suggest admirals. These would give bonuses. Ideally it would be a small increase to damage, emp resistance or similar within that fleet. But I seem to remember from forum threads on implementing fleet strategies that this would be very difficult to do. So instead you could have an admiral that if an admiral is used in a fleet he increases xp cap a little, or roid cap, or the amount of salvage gained, or reduces opponent's cap or similar. These are things that are variable already. Obviously each admiral would only do one thing, and would be like a ship in that s/he could only be moved between fleets at base. It would also have to show up as a ship in inc scans so that the admiral could be factored into calcs.
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Unread 8 Jul 2018, 20:40   #35
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
I dont see anyone having more than obliquely mentioned the quests here. It seems to me that they have been a big contributor to the xping this round simply because there are so many roids sloshing around as the quests hand them out like sweeties and roids are a major component in xp gains.
That supposes that XP increases more than value, as the number of roids in the universe increases. I don't believe that is the case. If we all had 10 times as many roids, wouldn't we all get 10 times as much XP and 10 times as much value? I see no mechanism that would result in us getting more than 10 times as much XP out of 10 times as many roids.
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Unread 8 Jul 2018, 22:58   #36
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
That supposes that XP increases more than value, as the number of roids in the universe increases. I don't believe that is the case. If we all had 10 times as many roids, wouldn't we all get 10 times as much XP and 10 times as much value? I see no mechanism that would result in us getting more than 10 times as much XP out of 10 times as many roids.
Well I wasn't in any way trying to say that quests were the issue in isolation; ultimately its always going to turn on how easy it is to land due to stats, you can tweak xp or mc formulas all you like if you cant land you wont have an xp round!
Nevertheless, there was a reason xp was raised and value didnt get raised in proportion and that is that roid numbers outstripped HCT research hugely; I saw multiple people who missed out on the equivalent of half their income or more.
That may also have psychologically contributed to xping culture too, if you cant mine them you dont care about losing them, encouraging the easy come easy go, dont defend attitude in the early round that would then persist.
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Unread 9 Jul 2018, 08:31   #37
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
Nevertheless, there was a reason xp was raised and value didnt get raised in proportion and that is that roid numbers outstripped HCT research hugely; I saw multiple people who missed out on the equivalent of half their income or more.
Fair point, hadn't thought of that!
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Unread 9 Jul 2018, 08:44   #38
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

Round 76:

Tweaks to core mining and quest asteroid bonuses
Resource stealing ships have returned, but can now only be used when at war with your target.

---------

As much as people can complain about the XP, the reason it has been changed is so that war is actualy profitable.
Remove it and you will go back to rounds when the likes KittenZ/VGN/Ultores had NAPs with majority of the universe except maybe tags like HR, BowS, Stellar or PATSA.

Its a domino effect in place this round, people noticed it was actualy profitable NOT being NAPed to top alliances, and with the offensive stats nobody can hold roids.
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Unread 9 Jul 2018, 10:04   #39
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

For most, other than the OP perhaps, there is no question of xp being removed.
But this round has essentially eliminated defence as a viable strategy - if you are not three fleet attacking you are losing.
Half of the game has gone.
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Unread 9 Jul 2018, 15:39   #40
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

Personally I think that getting removing/heavily nerfing XP would be a bad move & would probably drive more people away from the game as you would just have the big alliances with support tags running away with the victory every round.

It seems the PA crew have limited scope for adding variety into the game, rounds like this one are a refreshing change for some people. The successful alliances have embraced the stats and adapted better than some of the traditionally strong alliances which is a good thing imo. In the grand scheme of things there are few rounds which have been won purely by XP, if the score formula were to change, perhaps it could be done after the stats are finalised for balancing rather than just by an arbitrary amount for every round.

As for complaining that your FC tactics aren't working, perhaps take a different approach to the game rather than trolling others? It's difficult to sympathise with people who set out to ruin others experience.
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Unread 9 Jul 2018, 16:06   #41
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

Interesting thread in general, I love the idea of Admirals being used as some sort of fleet modifier for xp/roiding/def as a token and to drive mixed use of fleets.

It's important to have XP rounds now and then, offering more strategical thought and approaches to win. If a round is pure value, it encourages the same old nap/block/value/ground formula that we all know well. Any function that requires thought, strategy and decisions to be made throughout a round by an alliance/planet are important differentiators.

With the offensive stats and roid bonus for turning tax on, introducing more roids into the universe early, this round was always going to be slightly more offensive and we identified it could be an XP round before ticks began and fully committed to it after 300 ticks.

I think FC'ing is a troll/griefer approach to the round that is bad for the community in general as it encourages people to quit the game, which isn't great as we have a small enough community already. However, it is a valid approach to play as a strategy as it reduces incs through fear of retaliation and I have no issues with it.

I find people coming on here complaining that their approach isn't effective as it is in most rounds and therefore the entire game should change is a little farcical. Instead of complaining about the game, maybe you should consider adapting your play to the changes to maximize your effectiveness rather than doing the same shit as every other round.
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Unread 9 Jul 2018, 17:13   #42
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

Surely the stats/formulas etc can be balanced so that we can have effected Value & XP play in the same round?

Why does it need to be one or the other? If ND/Otters were up against Ult this round in a fair score race, everyone would be happy. Those in the middle could do either/or and we would get a much more mixed universe.

Instead, we have crashers and 2.5m value planets jumping up the ranks with 25k xp per land.

The game is broken this round, there is a distinct lack of chat/activity because nobody needs to come online for def. There is a lack of skill in launching 3 Xan fleets every day when you know you'll encounter very little def.

Someone needs to spend some time considering the stats, quests, etc. (as a package) before pressing the 'start ticks' button in future.
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Unread 9 Jul 2018, 18:42   #43
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramar View Post
Someone needs to spend some time considering the stats, quests, etc. (as a package) before pressing the 'start ticks' button in future.
Agreed.

While i do believe at least some consideration have been put into it there seems to be a naive lack of accounting for the player base, if anything this round have shown that deals will be made outside of game irregardless of stats (even if the form they take might change accordingly).

Doing it the easy way will in effect end up with the 'same shit as every other round', differently shaped but no less smelly
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Unread 9 Jul 2018, 19:52   #44
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramar View Post
... If ND/Otters were up against Ult this round in a fair score race, everyone would be happy...
Who is everybody and why isn't fair? Because with their strat they aren't currently #1? Or is it because FC-ing 5 times a day for allmost 2 weeks now isn't enough to win or break players will to even login to the game? Thank god this round has a way for players to come back after they have been FC-ed once or twice. Most other rounds you can just stop playing or turn full time scanner/ defplanet if you lose everything.

Quote:
...there is a distinct lack of chat/activity because nobody needs to come online for def...
Depends, if you are in an alliance who's getting FC-ed multiple times a day for two weeks straight there is activity. Also, FC's don't just happen, they need planning also.
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Unread 13 Jul 2018, 18:51   #45
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

XP isn't the problem the stats and quests made xp a problem this round it was identified pre round start how strong Xan would be by multiple people in stats channel no one listened to us.

It is what it is the XP allies won the round as predicted once the quests were noticed it is what it is the people incharge have been notified and they said they will look into it and make sure it won't be repeated next round.

Many comments in here are valid some are useless same as most threads i guess every now and then you need a chill round like this shame my ally didn't chill and tried to defend and lost sleep this round but didn't matter when the xp allies came nothing you can do against massive assaults of xan's in XP rounds you cant even gain xp back as they have such low value.

Picked wrong strat for the round but we kept on fighting 1 comment above is 100% correct another round like this and game will die 30 of my members have quit the game after this round due to this round as it's not the style of game they want to play attacking and defending is what a game is about not just half assed attacking and succeeding without defending.
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Unread 13 Jul 2018, 19:39   #46
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

The game will indeed die if this continue.

Rank 400 this round will have same score as previous round winners.

This round is all about beeing lazy and just pop in to claim wave 1 on raid so u will get that good xp land as no one defends.

The shittier u play the more score/xp u will get.

Also this xp swap shit is a cheaters paradise. Atleast it was easier to spot when people defended their rocks and value meant something in this game.

Now u can just make xp roid swap agreements on an earlier lt than alliances raids lts, cause u know u will loose thoose rocks anyway and you want to loose thoose rocks so your value are less when u land your attacks.

Just one more thing, did i mention how shitty and boring this round have become?
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Unread 13 Jul 2018, 20:44   #47
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demort View Post
XP isn't the problem the stats and quests made xp a problem this round it was identified pre round start how strong Xan would be by multiple people in stats channel no one listened to us.

It is what it is the XP allies won the round as predicted once the quests were noticed it is what it is the people incharge have been notified and they said they will look into it and make sure it won't be repeated next round.

Picked wrong strat for the round but we kept on fighting 1 comment above is 100% correct another round like this and game will die 30 of my members have quit the game after this round due to this round as it's not the style of game they want to play attacking and defending is what a game is about not just half assed attacking and succeeding without defending.

It was announced before the stats was even finalized it would be a shitty, with the intention to make defence close to impossibole.

Ive said it multiple times allready, the XP and quest arnt the problem, but all the these things combined with the stats.
Its easy to look past the domino effect this round, but it all adds up to XP being stronger than defence.

1. Offensive stats
2. More profitable war XP
3. More roids from quests
4. More attack fleets flying(!)
5. More value in attack fleets compared to defence fleets(!!)

Especialy point 4 and 5 is easy to look past, but they are certainly a big factor to how much harder it has been to cover incs this round.



On KittenZ, im pretty sure they are the tag that has played the worst this round, not only the strat decision alone, but also the decisions done by your members during the round.
A lot of KittenZ planets spent their stocks first week to build defence ships that would get killed in battle to cover their incs, and the DCing that was done on many planets was more or less abmyssal.
Not saying that if it was done perfect, it wouldve been possibole to have a much better round, but it certainly would(and should be) a demoralizing factor that some of your players played that bad.
Having one of your HCs getting closed for cheating couldnt have been good for moral either
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Unread 14 Jul 2018, 01:19   #48
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

Actually they rejoiced and was happy he was gone lol but yeah believe what you like 5 players that were leaving are now staying cause that hc is gone but believe what ever you like buddy you usually do
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Unread 14 Jul 2018, 08:02   #49
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
On KittenZ, im pretty sure they are the tag that has played the worst this round, not only the strat decision alone, but also the decisions done by your members during the round.
A lot of KittenZ planets spent their stocks first week to build defence ships that would get killed in battle to cover their incs, and the DCing that was done on many planets was more or less abmyssal.
Not saying that if it was done perfect, it wouldve been possibole to have a much better round, but it certainly would(and should be) a demoralizing factor that some of your players played that bad.
Having one of your HCs getting closed for cheating couldnt have been good for moral either
You should study the roots boy, I have given u enough material to do so Not that I am offended by KittenZ name either, great tag with great players! It how ever was just a name and the core was formed by CaRn all along.

How were they demoralized to hold their roids? Well untill full ptargeting and blocking started. No def ships died in battle, apart from crashing noobs on those units. We had most launches in the game, so should tell about decent activity and morale. We landed enough attacks too, we had top 3 roids most of the round. Do you have any background for your claims?

The mistake we did was to go value and lose the xp race. The rankings are fully determined by gathered XP. None to do with attacks landed or roids saved, what usually determines the good play. The only demoralizing factor was to finally realise this and we stopped making effort to hold on to those roids.

We can argue about being badly adapted to the games nature, but that was command team decisision, nothing to do with the awesome members. There were many deciding factors. The temporary blocks killed the value alliances and they were rivals instead of working together. Might have been more of a struggle to land Ult if we didnt keep them in the value range for the rest and vica versa. We spent a lot of resources on that front, instead of spamming just syrens and chims for example. Not that your pussy alliance even tried to land them Also the XP race might have ended short if there were none to xp from.

I am a great fan of XP, which courages u to hit above u. Still stating this, its the best feature of the game! Sadly its broken atm to kill all other features of the game.

Shame it wasnt fixed back in r75 already when given feed back
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Unread 14 Jul 2018, 09:12   #50
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Re: Remove EXP or nerf it to oblivion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ave View Post
How were they demoralized to hold their roids? Well untill full ptargeting and blocking started. No def ships died in battle, apart from crashing noobs on those units. We had most launches in the game, so should tell about decent activity and morale. We landed enough attacks too, we had top 3 roids most of the round. Do you have any background for your claims?
Because me, and many other "crashing noobs" landed on prodded carn def ships the first two weeks. When someone spends their entire stock the first two weeks in a attacking round onn building 15k chimeras to "cover incs", they will have a very hard time catching up as not only will the attacker lose value, but also the defender.
If you intend to play value, you need to know how to keep value. If you dont, you have nothing to cry about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ave View Post
The mistake we did was to go value and lose the xp race. The rankings are fully determined by gathered XP. None to do with attacks landed or roids saved, what usually determines the good play. The only demoralizing factor was to finally realise this and we stopped making effort to hold on to those roids.

We can argue about being badly adapted to the games nature, but that was command team decisision, nothing to do with the awesome members. There were many deciding factors. The temporary blocks killed the value alliances and they were rivals instead of working together. Might have been more of a struggle to land Ult if we didnt keep them in the value range for the rest and vica versa. We spent a lot of resources on that front, instead of spamming just syrens and chims for example. Not that your pussy alliance even tried to land them Also the XP race might have ended short if there were none to xp from.

I am a great fan of XP, which courages u to hit above u. Still stating this, its the best feature of the game! Sadly its broken atm to kill all other features of the game.
If a value alliance went for a heavy cath race strategy im pretty sure they couldve been able to outgrow the XP racers in tags like Otters and ND in no time.
Once alliances stop making a effort to hold roids XP will become way more powerfull, and that has nothing to do with how strong the feature/numbers is initialy.

All these small bits is very important to take into account if the XP formulae is to be changed, as in most rounds every alliance in the game might not decide to give up defending, and most rounds the politics will be stagnated half way through the round.
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