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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 13:24   #51
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
And besides, as I mention earlier you could always interpret it as a remark on the human race (especially since they say 'our' race).
When I answered the question on the site, I was thinking in terms of animals, although that's supicious wording.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 13:48   #52
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Nope.
Hmm.. Well i was hung up over what race defined and just how many..
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 13:58   #53
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Race is a social phenomenom.
What you've gone on to argue here is that the social aspects of race are a social phenomenon. Whoopdidoo. You've also overcomplicated the problem by demanding that, for my earlier statement to be true, we have to catergorise everyone.

We don't. It is simple enough to state (and supported by significant evidence) that, for example, black people are more likely to be faster runners (superior quality) and are more likely to be affected by sickle cell aenimia (inferior quality). This doesn't state that black people all run faster than white people (using trivial examples of different racial groups here) or that all black people have sickle cell aenimia, but these are qualitative differences, with obvious objective advantages and disadvantages.

It may not be this way in the future, but that's demoting the argument to saying that men have no significant differences from fish, because all that seperates them is time and selectionary concerns.

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Originally Posted by s|k
As such it follows that the attribution of who fits in what race varies from person to person, is highly arbitrary and so attributing qualities, and making judgmental values probably based on non scientific assumptions and stereotypes permeated in the media lead me declare your comment null and void. If you were being sarcastic , excuse me.
I forgot you were the god of all science, irrespective of your actual knowledge in the area.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 14:05   #54
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Economic Left/Right: -2.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.74
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 14:09   #55
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 2.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.82

i think i moved upwards a lil since the last time i took the test
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 14:16   #56
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by at0mic.c0w
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 2.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.82

i think i moved upwards a lil since the last time i took the test
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 14:20   #57
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

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Originally Posted by wu_trax
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obviously
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 16:05   #58
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Economic Left/Right: -0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.33
Economically I'm still fairly close to center, I seem to have moved a slight bit downwards on the Authoritarian/Libertarian scale in favour of the latter since last time.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 16:36   #59
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
What you've gone on to argue here is that the social aspects of race are a social phenomenon.
The scientific classification of race is parasitic on the (contingent, historically motivated) categorisation schemes we use in everyday life. Theres no more objective need to class black people as being a 'race' than there is to class red haired people. Saying that black people are 'more likely to be affected by sickle cell amenia' misses the point, since we can also say that (eg) redhaired people are more likely to contract skin cancer. There are many different ways we could choose to divide up the races, but the one which we actually use (both in science, and in life) is arbitrarilly based around skin colour.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 16:45   #60
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -5.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.10

apparently, drugs changes your political stances
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 16:49   #61
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The scientific classification of race is parasitic on the (contingent, historically motivated) categorisation schemes we use in everyday life. Theres no more objective need to class black people as being a 'race' than there is to class red haired people. Saying that black people are 'more likely to be affected by sickle cell amenia' misses the point, since we can also say that (eg) redhaired people are more likely to contract skin cancer. There are many different ways we could choose to divide up the races, but the one which we actually use (both in science, and in life) is arbitrarilly based around skin colour.
That doesn't actually change the argument though, it just changes the topics you're talking about. Call people with red headed genes a race, call people without another race - there will still be different attributes in the different demographics (although you do have to work with sufficiently large samples that any results aren't just artifacts of the founder effect) and some will be "better" and some will be "worse".

It's exactly the same problem as what counts as a "species", and which definition you use, but it doesn't stop us calling dogs a different species from butterflies.

The argument wasn't based on the white vs black dichotomy, it was put forward as a trivial example.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 22:57   #62
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
irrespective of your actual knowledge in the area.
I have well over five years of education on the subject, I graduated at the top of my deparment for my class. You're not arguing with some random internet figure on the subject. I don't know where you come off telling me what I don't know or do know. (That rant is not to justify or support my argument, only to counter your attack on my 'actual knowledge.')

Just tell me what set of biological traits are you using to categorize 'black' people? I don't know a single criteria that you could possibly use. All studies I have ever read involving race, ALWAYS, use the category people assign themselves to. Maybe you ought to take a science research course 101, and avoid gross unsupported claims that you pulled out of your head and have no data for.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 23:07   #63
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Economic Left/Right: 6.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38

I dispute the notion that voting against all authority makes a person right-wing
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 23:51   #64
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I have well over five years of education on the subject, I graduated at the top of my deparment for my class. You're not arguing with some random internet figure on the subject. I don't know where you come off telling me what I don't know or do know. (That rant is not to justify or support my argument, only to counter your attack on my 'actual knowledge.')
Funny, I thought you didn't hold any stock with this sort of thing, what with you deciding that your immense amount of training in the physical sciences made you some sort of authority on superstring theory. Obviously I, a physicist type chap, couldn't hold a candle to this. Maybe you should argue with my current physics supervisior, who is part of a team working with the LHC (and, appropriately enough, was at CERN when the topic came up on IRC). But then what would he know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Just tell me what set of biological traits are you using to categorize 'black' people?
It doesn't really matter. You can do it by the colour of the skin if you like, you can do it by ancestry if you like, or anything you choose. It is unlikely that any arbitrary distinction that you choose to make will have similar distributions in abilities or traits, and thus you can make a comparison. In my example, I could categorise "black people" as African tribesmen who have a reasonably long pedigree of people with similar origins and "white people" as people like me, who are the same but with "anglo-saxons" instead of "african tribesmen". It doesn't really matter.

Try to argue it however you like, making examples of people with mostly white heritage being viewed as black in the US and mostly black heritage being viewed as black in Brazil (or wherever) is citing social distinctions to support your argument that it is a social construct, which is tautologous at best.

I already covered this issue with my point about the problems of what makes a distinct race being simiar to the problem with the definition of a species (either in evolutionary or independent phylogenetic terms) something you have chosen to ignore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Maybe you ought to take a science research course 101
Sorry, don't have time for any more courses, I'm spending too much time in the library researching science.

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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 23:53   #65
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Economic Left/Right: 6.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38

I dispute the notion that voting against all authority makes a person right-wing
You should have read the analysis. The Economic Left/Right dichotomy places you in the side of the Free Market, with people like Milton Friedman, which certainly sits with your comment below.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 00:26   #66
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Yes, I'm saying that's wrong. I'd prefer that scale to be called 'economic liberty' rather than 'left/right'. Adam Smith was a man of the left in his time and many liberal economists would have been horrified at being called 'right wing'. Support for the Corn Laws was a right-wing policy.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 00:49   #67
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Yes, I'm saying that's wrong. I'd prefer that scale to be called 'economic liberty' rather than 'left/right'. Adam Smith was a man of the left in his time and many liberal economists would have been horrified at being called 'right wing'. Support for the Corn Laws was a right-wing policy.
The right side is referred to as "Economic Libertarianism" and it follows the trend of Socialist "lefty" governments to support things like a welfare state, and what would be referred to as relatively right ones to follow Free Market economics.

I don't see where the problem lies, it's consistent with observed politics. Just because you don't think that the economics of Bush or Thatcher were particulary right wing doesn't make it so.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 01:22   #68
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
A lot of blabber...I'm spending too much time in the library researching science.
Yeah except you don't know science. You're a fraud. I see you doing a lot of talking, a lot of insulting, but I see no data.

Let's just take one of your assertions here: black people run faster than other 'races.' You have asserted that there's a positive relationship between the speed at which someone travels by foot and some vacuous concept called 'race.' Except you have no data, and you don't even have a definition for what 'black' means.

Your phenomenally ignorant assertion has done you in. You've quite shot yourself in the foot. You have destroyed any credibility I have lent you when it comes to science. I don't ever want to see you have the gall to implicate anything I say as ignorant with regard to science because you have no feet stand on.

You can go on and analyze my rhetoric, you can talk about my lazy reading of IRC and forum discussions, you can insult, throw your arms up wildly in the air, but you know none of that matters. Because you have no data. You have a wildly ignorant statement that has exposed your quite serious ignorance on a topic you claim to know so much about.

Data, MrlJakiri, yes data, let's see it. Show me it. Where is it? What study can you point to? What data have you collected?

You don't even know what race is. Don't you ever, ever try to vituperate me or vilify me on account of science again. You're a quack. Go back to grade school.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 01:27   #69
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k

Let's just take one of your assertions here: black people run faster than other 'races.' You have asserted that there's a positive relationship between the speed at which someone travels by foot and some vacuous concept called 'race.' Except you have no data, and you don't even have a definition for what 'black' means.

Standard insane ranting...

You don't even know what race is. Don't you ever, ever try to vituperate me or vilify me on account of science again. You're a quack. Go back to grade school.
1) Black People are predisposed towards muscular development. hence they run faster. It's called selective breeding.
IT'S NOT RACISM TO ACCEPT RACIAL DIFFERENCES

2) MrL is probably autistic. I grant.
But he's no fraud when it comes to science. stop ranting like a school boy in the playground.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 01:29   #70
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Despite s|k's insane rant I think we can all acknowledge that the olympic sprints are generally won by a group of people who are racially distinguishable from the rest of humanity. The question is does this mean anything substantial or can it all be subsumed under the heading of "due to social circumstances"?
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 01:34   #71
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Despite s|k's insane rant I think we can all acknowledge that the olympic sprints are generally won by a group of people who are racially distinguishable from the rest of humanity. The question is does this mean anything substantial or can it all be subsumed under the heading of "due to social circumstances"?
the only important thing is to not discriminate against people on the basis that they are different from you

ranting and raving trying to pretend we have no racial differences is silly.

Black people tend to have black hair. They also tend to have black skin. We can't DENY these truths. why would we want to? Gay people tend to sleep with people of the same sex.

Being in denial is not fighting discrimination.

It's discrimination which is wrong.

Accept with GINGER PEOPLE
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 01:34   #72
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Despite s|k's insane rant I think we can all acknowledge that the olympic sprints are generally won by a group of people who are racially distinguishable from the rest of humanity. The question is does this mean anything substantial or can it all be subsumed under the heading of "due to social circumstances"?
You're already making assumptions about things you see on the surface that don't correlate with actual biological differences between people. On top of that you're not looking at well established, scientifically devised samples, you're not utilizing peer reviewed methods and well documented instrumentation to make observation, you're not even being systematic about anything at all. I want people to stop trying to make connections between things and stop creating relationships between things when they have no actual support for these connections or relationships that can stand up to scrutiny. You shouldn't believe in the existence of something you can't support with real evidence.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 01:36   #73
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
You're already making assumptions about things you see on the surface that don't correlate with actual biological differences between people.
The surface being SKIN is generally considered a biological difference
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 01:41   #74
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Yeah except you don't know science.
I know the scientific method very well, and have debated it many a time when sober or otherwise. I'm highly interested in HPS, and my supervisors and the heads of the practical classes have commented highly on my intellectual and scientific rigor and insight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Data, MrlJakiri, yes data, let's see it. Show me it. Where is it? What study can you point to? What data have you collected?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/disease/sickle.html for the SCA thing, the Olympics for the speed on the track thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
You don't even know what race is.
I know that there are different definitions that are argued over, which are extremely precise analogies of the divisions of the concepts of species in biology, be it from hereditery or mere observation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Don't you ever, ever try to vituperate me or vilify me on account of science again. You're a quack.
How will I sell my snake oil now

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Go back to grade school.
No, I think I'll stay at the best university in europe for science, if it's all the same to you.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 01:41   #75
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
You're already making assumptions about things you see on the surface that don't correlate with actual biological differences between people. On top of that you're not looking at well established, scientifically devised samples, you're not utilizing peer reviewed methods and well documented instrumentation to make observation, you're not even being systematic about anything at all. I want people to stop trying to make connections between things and stop creating relationships between things when they have no actual support for these connections or relationships that can stand up to scrutiny. You shouldn't believe in the existence of something you can't support with real evidence.
Do you want me to go get pictures of all the finalists in the 100m sprints or something? I'm not saying that this is necessarily due to a genetic difference, but to pretend it doesn't exist is just silly.




PS it's spelt except yahwe
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 01:43   #76
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Economic Left/Right: -3.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.56


and im amazed that i appear to have not posted results about this before, im sure i remember doing it
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 01:44   #77
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
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PS it's spelt except yahwe
i'm still not employing you as my secretary.

I refuse to have an employee who drinks as much as i do
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 01:46   #78
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

I was trying to one of those smiley faces on irc earlier and it took me nine attempts to get it right
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 01:50   #79
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Do you want me to go get pictures of all the finalists in the 100m sprints or something? I'm not saying that this is necessarily due to a genetic difference, but to pretend it doesn't exist is just silly.

PS it's spelt except yahwe
I'm not saying a relationship doesn't exist between one thing or another, I can't really comment on it and I can't offer any explanations. I can say that some sociologist suggest that without the traditional means and access to resources (such as equitable education) and faced with obstacles (such as institutionalized discrimination and poverty) people self-described as 'black' are more likely to seek alternative means to advance to a desired standard of living, including deviance and crime, music, sports, etc. I've read about it, but I can't point to any evidence.

If there is a relationship between race and winning the sprint competitions, that doesn't mean that you can infer a similiar relationship onto the entire 'black' population.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 01:51   #80
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

How can we help s|k not be mental when he has half of us on ignore at random?
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 02:07   #81
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I'm not saying a relationship doesn't exist between one thing or another, I can't really comment on it and I can't offer any explanations. I can say that some sociologist suggest that without the traditional means and access to resources (such as equitable education) and faced with obstacles (such as institutionalized discrimination and poverty) people self-described as 'black' are more likely to seek alternative means to advance to a desired standard of living, including deviance and crime, music, sports, etc. I've read about it, but I can't point to any evidence.

If there is a relationship between race and winning the sprint competitions, that doesn't mean that you can infer a similiar relationship onto the entire 'black' population.
Indeed, but it would be silly to ignore in a pursuit of the truth. Personally I deem it unlikely that if you go around asking random people of "different races" to run the hundred metres you'll get very far. Frankly the fact that racial differences may or may not exist is positively meaningless to me. I'm never going to support social welfare and I'm never going to judge anyone except as an individual.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 02:12   #82
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Indeed, but it would be silly to ignore in a pursuit of the truth. Personally I deem it unlikely that if you go around asking random people of "different races" to run the hundred metres you'll get very far. Frankly the fact that racial differences may or may not exist is positively meaningless to me. I'm never going to support social welfare and I'm never going to judge anyone except as an individual.
I'm not a fan of social welfare either. I don't think just doling out money works. (I do believe in universal health care and providing money to people experiencing emergencies). I am a fan of equitable education. You can't expect people to make a decent career when they've had substandard education because schools are funded by a local tax base. Some schools have massive pools, expansive cafeterias, an overabundance of equipment, while some have poorly trained teachers, not enough text books or even desks for all the students.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 02:15   #83
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I'm not a fan of social welfare either. I don't think just doling out money works. (I do believe in universal health care and providing emergency money to people). I am a fan of equitable education. You can't expect people to make a decent career when they've had substandard education because schools are funded by a local tax base. Some schools have massive pools, expansive cafeterias, an overabundance of equipment, while some have poorly trained teachers, not enough text books or even desks for all the students.
I quite agree with a minimum standard of education for all children. Equally however I do not agree with parents being prevented from sending their children to more lavish schools if they are capable of doing so. To me this is no different from buying your child more/better books or getting them grinds or any host of other education-boosting activities.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 02:19   #84
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I quite agree with a minimum standard of education for all children. Equally however I do not agree with parents being prevented from sending their children to more lavish schools if they are capable of doing so. To me this is no different from buying your child more/better books or getting them grinds or any host of other education-boosting activities.
I have a moral problem with better medical care for those who can pay more and better education for those who can pay more. It's not fair that someone should have a better life, a longer life, because they have more money for whatever reason. I think as a society we should work to reducing inequalities of these kinds. Having a bigger tv or a shinier car I don't care about.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 02:20   #85
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I have a moral problem with better medical care for those who can pay more and better education for those who can pay more. It's not fair that someone should have a better life, a longer life, because they have more money for whatever reason. I think as a society we should work to reducing inequalities.
"I don't" times two.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 02:22   #86
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

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"I don't" times two.
Why not?
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 02:25   #87
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Why not?
I don't think individuals should be forced to help other individuals or limited in what they can do (as long as it does not directly impinge upon others).
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 02:44   #88
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

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I don't think individuals should be forced to help other individuals or limited in what they can do (as long as it does not directly impinge upon others).
You know that must be the first time I've heard this argument. It has never made sense to me why people didn't think inequality was an injustice, but I think this argument is connecting dots for me. So it's an individual freedom thing?
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 02:46   #89
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

It's a each man for himself unless it's mutually benefitting thing.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 02:56   #90
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
You know that must be the first time I've heard this argument. It has never made sense to me why people didn't think inequality was an injustice, but I think this argument is connecting dots for me. So it's an individual freedom thing?
Very much so. I feel quite strongly that people should help each other. I think it's a very worthy and laudable accomplishment to have helped another human being. The role of the state I see as providing an opportunity (or more correctly the tools to create an opportunity) to succeed and the protection to allow people to succeed. A "forced" life is no better than slavery to me.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 04:11   #91
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

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Very much so. I feel quite strongly that people should help each other. I think it's a very worthy and laudable accomplishment to have helped another human being. The role of the state I see as providing an opportunity (or more correctly the tools to create an opportunity) to succeed and the protection to allow people to succeed. A "forced" life is no better than slavery to me.
how deliciously middle-class.

where this all falls down is when the wealthy decide not to bother being benevolent, and freely-given welfare is not enough to support even in a basic way those who need it, and all of a sudden we run into lives being sacrificed upon the altar of greed. When the welfare state was introduced, it was because there was evidently a working class being ground into the floor by self-interest. I don't for a moment suppose you support the idea of a minimum wage, either.

Being forced to help others may seem like slavery to you, but living in inhumane, life-threatening conditions and being forced to work more than half the hours in the week in an unsafe job so that you could afford to eat seemed a lot more like slavery to the turn-of-the-century working classes.

edit: typo.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 04:19   #92
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
how deliciously middle-class.

where this all falls down is when the wealthy decide not to bother being benevolent,
the middle classes are never benevolent

I must take issue with you young phang. Your idea of the past is not true

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When the welfare state was introduced, it was because there was evidently a working class being ground into the floor by self-interest.
the only true answer darling is 'no'
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 05:55   #93
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Economic Left/Right: -5.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.95
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 08:54   #94
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
If there is a relationship between race and winning the sprint competitions, that doesn't mean that you can infer a similiar relationship onto the entire 'black' population.
You can say that black people have the potential to run faster than white people. That's even assuming that you wan't to use that interpretation of the word race; using "Country of origin", or any of the other definitions of "race" in the english language, is just as valid within the context of the test, and so:

The English have a better sense of humour than the Germans. We're less corrupt than the French. We're more socialist than the Italians. We have produced more great scientists than the Spanish. We're better at football than Norway.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 08:57   #95
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

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but living in inhumane, life-threatening conditions and being forced to work more than half the hours in the week in an unsafe job so that you could afford to eat seemed a lot more like slavery to the turn-of-the-century working classes.
Not according to things like The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists, they didn't.

As long as there is a reason to employ someone, then people will be employed. The aim should be to get people into a position where this is always true, not to abandon the lower classes to their status.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 09:04   #96
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

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Despite s|k's insane rant I think we can all acknowledge that the olympic sprints are generally won by a group of people who are racially distinguishable from the rest of humanity. The question is does this mean anything substantial or can it all be subsumed under the heading of "due to social circumstances"?
In Atlanta, A Norwegian skinny fellow with curly hair won the 800m infront of lots of folks of different racial difference.

This doesnt prove anything but its still funny today
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 09:21   #97
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Re: Norwegian football, I'm glad you have such a high opinion of your country Idler, but to say they're better than England is delusional.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 11:10   #98
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
how deliciously middle-class.
The middle-class are more than happy to keep the proles on welfare. Keeps them out of the way and lets them afford the ability to drug themselves into oblivion without adversely affecting anyone who "matters".

Quote:
where this all falls down is when the wealthy decide not to bother being benevolent, and freely-given welfare is not enough to support even in a basic way those who need it, and all of a sudden we run into lives being sacrificed upon the altar of greed. When the welfare state was introduced, it was because there was evidently a working class being ground into the floor by self-interest.
I don't dispute the notion of a welfare state as a safety net, but in reality if you're in receipt of money from the state then you are at the mercy of the state. Instead of encouraging responsibility or change, it encourages people to make do with a poor lot in life, able to keep their heads above water but never advancing towards anything else.

Quote:
I don't for a moment suppose you support the idea of a minimum wage, either.
There are economic arguments against a minimum wage (that it raises the cost of labour thus making businesses less likely to employ people) but the UK minimum wage is set so low that it makes no difference.

In the end, businesses aren't going to spend massively more on labour than they do now. If the cost of an individual unit of labour increases, they'll find ways of needing less of it (automation, offshoring etc.).

Quote:
Being forced to help others may seem like slavery to you, but living in inhumane, life-threatening conditions and being forced to work more than half the hours in the week in an unsafe job so that you could afford to eat seemed a lot more like slavery to the turn-of-the-century working classes.
I don't think it was the welfare state that eliminated those jobs. We're just too wealthy as a society to do them here any more.

If it were possible to institute utopia simply by redistributing in a top-down fashion, it would have already been achieved. Any top-down solution ignores the fact that change must come from the bottom, that people must be in charge of their own lives and not simply passive recipients of a few crumbs from the top table.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 11:38   #99
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
how deliciously middle-class.
Don't be shit please.

Quote:
where this all falls down is when the wealthy decide not to bother being benevolent, and freely-given welfare is not enough to support even in a basic way those who need it, and all of a sudden we run into lives being sacrificed upon the altar of greed. When the welfare state was introduced, it was because there was evidently a working class being ground into the floor by self-interest. I don't for a moment suppose you support the idea of a minimum wage, either.

Being forced to help others may seem like slavery to you, but living in inhumane, life-threatening conditions and being forced to work more than half the hours in the week in an unsafe job so that you could afford to eat seemed a lot more like slavery to the turn-of-the-century working classes.
That's not a failure to me though. I quite honestly don't care. I support emergency welfare in the case of disasters, and let's face it sometimes charity does better than governmental aid in these situations (referencing the tsunami in Asia). Sure life is going to be harder for some people than it is for others but that's how life pans out. Someone will always get the breaks. If human civilisation crumbles and we annihilate each other in an inferno of nuclear fire then hopefully it'll provide us a better base next time we try to build a society. I don't give a shit about what seems like slavery. I care about what is slavery. I'm not going to feel guilty over things other people do or don't do.
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Unread 22 Feb 2006, 13:05   #100
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Re: to increase activity 2 (political compass again)

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