Travel Time Madness

[Parthos]

From the manual:

*Note* for travel more than 10 clusters from your planet, for EACH 10th cluster away from you, travel time grows by 1 tick.
For travel more than 10 clusters from your planet, for EACH 10th cluster or part therof away from you, travel time grows by 1 tick.

Seen this in action tonight. Here is how it seems to work:

Take a defense call from someone in c10 with incoming eta 11. They can receive eta 11 defense from c1-19; in other words, the whole universe atm. All is good.

Take a defense call from someone in c4. Someone in c18 offers defense. Oops, eta is too high. The c4 person can only receive normal tt defense from clusters 1-13.

• The c10 person has access to normal eta defense from 19 clusters.
• The c4 person has access to normal eta defense from 13 clusters.
• And of course, c1 and 19 are totally screwed.
This gives the "middle-of-the-universe" person a huge advantage over someone in low or high clusters.

Same would go for attacking tt's of course.

It's horribly imbalanced to implement such a biased traveltime system.

Here's a hint: make the universe wrap around.

In a wraparound universe of say 30 clusters (to make my numbers easier to understand), a c4 planet could attack anywhere from c25 around to c13, making c 14-24 a higher tt and giving it an equal chance alongside the c10 planet that gets normal tt from c1-19 but has higher tt in c20-30. Get it?

PAX stole tons of ideas from Utopia, including variable tt. What they forgot was that Utopia uses a wraparound universe. Put that in PAX, or remove this traveltime business altogether.

[Cochese]

Agreed.

At the very least, make it "flexible"; I tried to send defense to an allied planet exactly 10 clusters higher than myself, but the eta was +1.

This is retarded.

[zenopus]

Originally posted by Parthos
PAX stole tons of ideas from Utopia, including variable tt.

Not so.
I was independently considering PA geography (including variable TT) since R4 - and presented my ideas for debate around R5 havoc.
The original thread was lost in a big forum DB purge, but there's a follow-up thread here with a link to what I happened to have salvaged.

[Parthos]

I got someone who played PA on and off since r4 to come back for PAX. A bit against his wishes, as the reasons he quit in the first place had to do with imbalances, though at the time it was mainly c/p imbalances that annoyed him.

Bought him an account, promised to work alongside him and attack and defend together so he would play again and maybe have fun....and he's more than 10 clusters away by current tt standards, but not by wraparound standards.

He is about to quit again, saying, "It's a dozen times worse than landing in a bad cluster. I didn't realize that it'd be so completely unbalanced half the universe gets 2x the tt advantage of the other half."

Good work, Creators!

[DJet]

Get him into your in-game:

Galaxy ETA: 5 ticks, Universe ETA: 12 ticks + 1 tick every ten clusters., Alliance ETA: 11 ticks

The eta over 10clusters only seems to apply to non-allied planets, Alliance defence has the same eta everywhere...

[Parthos]

Originally posted by DJet
The eta over 10clusters only seems to apply to non-allied planets, Alliance defence has the same eta everywhere...

Um....I wouldn't have even bothered making this thread if this travel time issue didn't affect alliance travel time as well. Go run a defense and see for yourself.

The variable traveltime isn't even the main issue. The issue is that at the moment we have a one dimensional universe—a line—rather than a 2 dimensional universe—a circle—giving a penalty to people in low or high clusters.

[Kal]

i am sure in the orginal design it was going to be a wrap around universse, and yes i deifntyl think it should be. maybe it was to hard for them to code with a universe that grows...

[Hurragutten]

Originally posted by KalVirtus
i am sure in the orginal design it was going to be a wrap around universse, and yes i deifntyl think it should be. maybe it was to hard for them to code with a universe that grows...

Wrap around would be good. Problem now is that we have only 19 clusters so a wrap around would make everyone reach every cluster with the reduced (or not increased maybe) traveltime.

I feel everyone being able to reach everyone is better than the imbalance we have now. Or the creators could change the size of the clusters to get 30 clusters and wrap the universe.

[Zo0f]

Whats worse is a few days ago #support had no idea how it worked and were telling people the wrong thing. But it wouldnt be the PA that we all love if they hadnt!

[DarkAngel]

was damn hard work sorting defence this morning il tell u, hehe .. as much s it strains DC;s tho, the idea works well.

[dabult]

This has to be one of the worst ideas that was brought in this round.

They already made defending suck with one tick attacks/defs and the eta...and now this.


'yay'

[The_Fish]

I wish I wasnt in C1

[DJet]

Originally posted by Parthos
Um....I wouldn't have even bothered making this thread if this travel time issue didn't affect alliance travel time as well. Go run a defense and see for yourself.

The variable traveltime isn't even the main issue. The issue is that at the moment we have a one dimensional universe—a line—rather than a 2 dimensional universe—a circle—giving a penalty to people in low or high clusters.

I'm just saying that based upon the fact that the in-game alliance traveltime does not have (+eta1 for each 10 clusters) next to it


But yes, in a bigger universe a circlier universe would be a much better idea.

[Scoot951]

Well, you do have to consider that the middle cluster can get more defence, but they can also get more attackers.

But it does suck, they'd be better off changing it to 5 clusters and making it wrap.

[Nadar]

It sux indeed Being in the middle gives waaay to big advantage, and the outer clusters becomes a easier target aswell :|

[Spearhead]

hehe didnt think about it that way....didnt even know the advantage was only for the 10 Clusters <->....around you....Spinner why dont you think things through before adding this ****...its not fair being in a low C sucks monkeyballs :@ i demand a change...this way ill never be able to def myself properly let alone attack like it should be...dynamic tt is the worst thing ever invented in PA ....

ffs only half of the universe can def me....while those lucky bitches in C10 can have defence from all clusters....isnt this a bit over the top?

[SPQR]

I wonder why they didn't implement this feature in the beta test, it should have been tested and discussed there. But it seems like PA ****ed up again and the result is yet another inbalanced feature...

[zenopus]

Originally posted by Spearhead
...only half of the universe can def me....while those lucky bitches in C10 can have defence from all clusters....

... and you can only get regular eta hostiles from half the universe - while planets in c10 can get regular eta hostiles from all clusters ...

Does that not pretty much balance out?

[Razorback]

Originally posted by zenopus
... and you can only get regular eta hostiles from half the universe - while planets in c10 can get regular eta hostiles from all clusters ...

Does that not pretty much balance out?

But this is also a 2 way street for your own attacks the eta is also like this.

[Envious]

Originally posted by Parthos
The issue is that at the moment we have a one dimensional universe—a line—rather than a 2 dimensional universe—a circle—giving a penalty to people in low or high clusters.

If it was wrapped around it would still be 1dimensional. A circle (the outer line) is a 1dimensional structure, the area within is 2dimensional.

[xtothez]

Alter TT every 5/6th cluster and make it wrap around. It's not rocket science.

[xtothez]

Originally posted by Envious
If it was wrapped around it would still be 1dimensional. A circle (the outer line) is a 1dimensional structure, the area within is 2dimensional.

By that definition a cube is also a one-dimensional structure. Take your pedantic (and flawed) geometry elsewhere.

[SpazMonster]

Originally posted by Envious
If it was wrapped around it would still be 1dimensional. A circle (the outer line) is a 1dimensional structure, the area within is 2dimensional.

i'll first agree with x

i'll follow up by being an even more pedantic asshole.

the only 1 dimensional 'shape' is a single dot. even a straight line is 2 dimensional. Since PA is pretty much a cube it's actually 3 dimensional, hence the x y and z coordinates. there really is no conceptual way to explain wrap around. The shape doesn't exist because in order for it to exist there cannot be any borders, and without borders there is no shape.

[SYMM]

hmm...it was clear what the original person meant, but a dot in fact is 0 dimesional, a line is 1, a square 2, and a cube 3.....

a circle, is 2D, but a ring (e.g.a wrap around universe) is 1D.

By that definition a cube is also a one-dimensional structure. Take your pedantic (and flawed) geometry elsewhere.

the edges of a cube (each being a line) are 1D, the cube as a whole is 3D.
Replace "dimensional" with "directional" and it all makes sense, and everyone can be happy

[backontopic]

Alter TT every 5/6th cluster and make it wrap around. It's not rocket science.

Repeated for emphasis

[Spearhead]

another thing that comes to mind is...thats there was no shuffle!!! this means he cant blame it on bad luck...and all the 'easy' target are in the higher clusters which i cant get too without being penalized with an +1 ETA....nah this **** stinks...
remove the dynamic crap all the way...cause you didnt think about it .... and i wont have it this way...

[Parthos]

Originally posted by KalVirtus
i am sure in the orginal design it was going to be a wrap around universse, and yes i deifntyl think it should be. maybe it was to hard for them to code with a universe that grows...

Sorry to bring up the U-word again, but Mehul seemed to have no problem coding it for Utopia's growing universe, and the universe is built the exact same way PA is (world, kingdom, province = universe, galaxy, planet). So I would think it's not difficult, merely overlooked.

[ParraCida]

There will most likely not be a wrap-around for the universe. Being at the end of the universe has its advantages as well as its disadvantages. Being in cluster 1 gives you less people that can defend you with a low ETA, but it also gives you less people that can attack you with a low ETA at the same ratio. So it all balances out.

Edit: Also it is technically very possible to implement, it was simply chosen not to do so.

[Eventh]

Originally posted by ParraCida
There will most likely not be a wrap-around for the universe. Being at the end of the universe has its advantages as well as its disadvantages. Being in cluster 1 gives you less people that can defend you with a low ETA, but it also gives you less people that can attack you with a low ETA at the same ratio. So it all balances out.

Edit: Also it is technically very possible to implement, it was simply chosen not to do so.

it gives you less defence and less attacks, but it also gives you less targets.. so its 2 cons and 1 pro...

[Heartshunter]

What a bull****, I can't stop laughing though, sorry :P

Balancing it out ? Omg, parra you seriously don't believe that, do you?

[ParraCida]

Originally posted by Heartshunter
What a bull****, I can't stop laughing though, sorry :P

Balancing it out ? Omg, parra you seriously don't believe that, do you?

How not so? On the one hand you get attacked less at a lower ETA and on the other hand you get defended less at a lower ETA. Those two things completely equal out.

On top of that the current universe size ensures that the traveltime system is 'barely' operating and that the difference for people is minimal. The issue with outgoing fleets is known and will be taken under consideration.

Now, don't you need to get back to AO?

[SYMM]

On the one hand you get attacked less at a lower ETA and on the other hand you get defended less at a lower ETA.

...and on the 2nd hand again, you have fewer targets at lower eta.

[ParraCida]

Originally posted by SYMM
...and on the 2nd hand again, you have fewer targets at lower eta.

Originally posted by ParraCida
The issue with outgoing fleets is known and will be taken under consideration.

[SYMM]

err...for the outgoing fleet-situation to change, surely the incoming one will too?
Unless this is a personal thing, just for me?

[ParraCida]

Originally posted by SYMM
err...for the outgoing fleet-situation to change, surely the incoming one will too?

Obviously

[Parthos]

Originally posted by ParraCida
Being in cluster 1 gives you less people that can defend you with a low ETA, but it also gives you less people that can attack you with a low ETA at the same ratio. So it all balances out. [...]

On top of that the current universe size ensures that the traveltime system is 'barely' operating and that the difference for people is minimal.

Thank you for replying, but I still need to address this issue.

So...the people in cluster 1 have about 10 clusters at normal eta. Folks in cluster 10 have 20 clusters at normal eta. Meaning, as you said, since most of the action will happen at normal etas, the people in c1 basically get half the universe the c10s get, for the same price. Yay!

This is what's known as a "barely operating" traveltime system? 100% difference in target and defense capability between end and middle clusters is still 100% whether in a 20 cluster universe or a 100 cluster universe.

Try explaining to your alliance member under attack how minimal the difference is when you can't cover his c18 planet because all the defense offered is from c3.

Originally posted by ParraCida
Also it is technically very possible to implement, it was simply chosen not to do so.

Would you mind sharing why? If it's the "less defense available in c1, but fewer attacks will be launched on c1 as well" argument, you can see how we’ve already pointed out the flaws in that line of thinking.

If the round were long enough, we could eventually chart players scores by cluster, and see a bell curve, with its lowest points in c1 and the end cluster, and its highest point in the middle. In a large universe, the curve would be low on the ends and curve up to a straight line across the middle, curving down again on the high end of the universe. This is because of what I mentioned above, that c1 players get half the universe the c10 players do...half the access to normal eta attacks and defense, and thus half the opportunity to grow.

If this traveltime method were to continue into r11 (assuming there is one) I can assure you no alliance that wants to “own”, ie not only defend its members and have fun, but wants to “win” the round as well, will allow its members to sign up until the first 10 clusters are full. They won’t want to deny their members any targets or sources of defense.

[Tactitus]

Originally posted by ParraCida
There will most likely not be a wrap-around for the universe. Being at the end of the universe has its advantages as well as its disadvantages. Being in cluster 1 gives you less people that can defend you with a low ETA, but it also gives you less people that can attack you with a low ETA at the same ratio. So it all balances out.

The incoming/outgoing is always balanced--by definition, but those in the low clusters have a difference balance than those in the middle clusters.

Edit: Also it is technically very possible to implement, it was simply chosen not to do so.

If you don't want to wrap the universe, then you could bias the travel times by the cluster number. In effect, giving the lowest clusters a "longer reach" into the higher clusters and vice versa. It shouldn't be too difficult to implement; although maybe harder to explain.

[ParraCida]

Originally posted by Parthos
Thank you for replying, but I still need to address this issue.

So...the people in cluster 1 have about 10 clusters at normal eta. Folks in cluster 10 have 20 clusters at normal eta. Meaning, as you said, since most of the action will happen at normal etas, the people in c1 basically get half the universe the c10s get, for the same price. Yay!

I didn't say most of the action would happen at your region ETA. I assume the action is where the action needs happening. Which is wherever the enemy or your allies are. Basically the traveling system is designed to implement 'localized' alliances (as announced a while back). Which brings me to the next point, the 'barely operating' comment means that the total effect of the traveling system is not all that big.

Try explaining to your alliance member under attack how minimal the difference is when you can't cover his c18 planet because all the defense offered is from c3.

This is no different from simply noticing incommings too late, in the old pa this would be equivalent to asking your alliance for ETA 5 defense where some people might be in cluster/parallel and have it for you and others not.

Would you mind sharing why? If it's the "less defense available in c1, but fewer attacks will be launched on c1 as well" argument, you can see how we’ve already pointed out the flaws in that line of thinking.

There are no flaws in that line of thinking. For incomming fleets this is perfectly acceptible, for outgoing fleets however that is different and as I've said its been pointed out to the powers that be

If this traveltime method were to continue into r11 (assuming there is one) I can assure you no alliance that wants to “own”, ie not only defend its members and have fun, but wants to “win” the round as well, will allow its members to sign up until the first 10 clusters are full. They won’t want to deny their members any targets or sources of defense.

That is actually the intent of the system, it stimulates people to form regional alliances (obviously not from trying to exploit the placement system).

[Scoot951]

A 10 cluster stretch is far too much for the current universe size for regional alliances to be worthwhile. Also, there's the fact that, even if there were 50 clusters, a gal in c30 would have the option of joining a c23-based alliance, a c30 based alliance, a c39 based alliance, etc., any regional alliance would have to include galaxies that aren't actually in the same region as each other...unless people just set up one alliance for every cluster, in which case this was pointless.



Anyways, there's some flaws to be worked out here.

[Parthos]

Originally posted by ParraCida
I didn't say most of the action would happen at your region ETA.

Correct. I inferred it from several rounds' experience working with local (c/p) and universe etas.

Originally posted by ParraCida
I assume the action is where the action needs happening. Which is wherever the enemy or your allies are. Basically the traveling system is designed to implement 'localized' alliances (as announced a while back). Which brings me to the next point, the 'barely operating' comment means that the total effect of the traveling system is not all that big.

In the old cluster/parallel scenario, everyone had a cluster or parallel of approximately the same number of planets. The main chance variable was the quality of your cluster or parallel. Whether you had low eta targets or defense depended on your own and your gal's/alliance's success in uniting or roiding the cluster/parallel. With this system, your traveltime area could be considered traveltimewise the equivalent of a c/p. And with the current system, the number of low eta targets and defense depends not on diplomacy or even the luck of landing in a "good" cluster, but on the luck of simply the coords you land into. One could say landing in c1 would be similar to landing in a "bad" cluster in the past, and it is, but it's even worse: with a bad cluster you still had many options to ameliorate the problem: eg, you could alliance hop to get on the majority's side, you could form a rebel c alliance to thwart the efforts of the majority, etc.

Landing in c1 can't be helped in any way. No matter what, you'll always have half of the low eta targets and defense of the rest of the universe.

Originally posted by ParraCida

This is no different from simply noticing incommings too late, in the old pa this would be equivalent to asking your alliance for ETA 5 defense where some people might be in cluster/parallel and have it for you and others not.

So as I stated before, c10 has a 20 cluster area ally and c1 has a 10 cluster area ally. c1 will notice a lot more “late” incomings than c10 will.

Originally posted by ParraCida

There are no flaws in that line of thinking. For incomming fleets this is perfectly acceptible, for outgoing fleets however that is different and as I've said its been pointed out to the powers that be

I don't understand the incoming/outgoing fleets issue at all. Please explain.

Originally posted by ParraCida

That is actually the intent of the system, it stimulates people to form regional alliances.

This is irrelevant to the subject. The subject isn’t having a variable traveltime system, the subject is that is has been implemented in an imbalanced fashion. Or was it decided that the only way to encourage regional alliances was to imbalance the traveltime system to give some an advantage and thus encourage the disadvantaged to try to ameliorate that in some way?

Basically, you have sidetracked this thread.
• The issue is not whether or not to encourage regional alliances
• The issue is not about incoming v. outgoing fleets
• The issue is not how "much" the travel time system affects any particular planet or galaxy or cluster

The issue is that the traveltime system was (purposely we know now) implemented to give half the low eta targets and defense to low and high clusters than middle clusters have, which imbalances the gameplay at a fundamental level.

I am still curious as to how imbalancing the implementation of the traveltime system is better for the game than implementing it in a logical fashion would be.

[Forest]

OK

normally this would be a good idea.
however, it HAS to wrap-around.

If i landed in c1, i would be stuffed without it. I have 50% less def and 50% less targets to choose form someone in c10.

I believe the idea is good, but in such a small universe it is a total imbalance.

You say that it balances out, because I would have less ppl who could attack me at the faster eta.

I say that i paid the same amount for this game as the guy in c10, and I expect to have the same amount of clusters i can access at a faster tick as the guy in c10.

[Eventh]

this round is not about roiding and keeping your roids.. its about score, wich you get by attacking or defending..

those with less clusters, will get less action.. its wrong to say that its balanced, since you get less income and less defence.. then you are thinking old pa, but with pax you need income and attacks to get score.. less of this measn less score..

[Spearhead]

when will we get a decent alternative for the fact ppl in low C are ****ed in the ass?

[DJet]

i'm not moaning anymore, i'm in c12

[Hicks]

Originally posted by Heartshunter
What a bull****, I can't stop laughing though, sorry :P

Balancing it out ? Omg, parra you seriously don't believe that, do you?

Parra has "flipped" he can only say yes now

[The_Fish]

my gal rocks, but I'm in c1, attacks are gonna be fcuked for me

set a target up last night, in the middle clusters, so they dont have the perfect situation, depends if they get it all covered or not, we'll see in 4 ticks

[Envious]

Originally posted by xtothez
By that definition a cube is also a one-dimensional structure. Take your pedantic (and flawed) geometry elsewhere.

it's not flawed, the surface of a cube is a 2dimensional structure. go back to school before showing off your ignorance

[Envious]

Originally posted by SpazMonster
i'll first agree with x

i'll follow up by being an even more pedantic asshole.

the only 1 dimensional 'shape' is a single dot. even a straight line is 2 dimensional. Since PA is pretty much a cube it's actually 3 dimensional, hence the x y and z coordinates. there really is no conceptual way to explain wrap around. The shape doesn't exist because in order for it to exist there cannot be any borders, and without borders there is no shape.

sorry about having to correct you.
a dot is 0dimensional. you cannot go in any direction in a dot. a line is 1 dimensional.
there is 1 coord marking your position on a line.

indeed PA universe is 3dimensional if you look at x,y,z coords. we were just talking about clusters tho and it makes absolutely no difference if they wrap around or not. so if you are willing to assume they are 1dimensional when not wrapped around, they remain 1dimensional even when wrapped.

when you wrap it around you may look at it as the circumference of a circle. as long as you stay on the circumference (which we have to assume, as we calc the distance along clusters, which all lie on the circumference), you can mark your position with 1 coord (the cluster number) hence it is 1dimensional. it only becomes 2dimensional by introducing another neighbourship. eg if you say c12 is not only close to c11 and c13, but also to c2 and c22 (image a line of numbers layed out in a rectangle like a snake), then it becomes 2 dimensional.

[Envious]

[quote]Originally posted by The_Fish

just noticed you were in my cluster in R3.
hello

[Spearhead]

well aint that something you want to share!
i'm in his gal R10...unbelievable