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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 17:48   #151
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
They arent. But that doesnt mean you cant scout them.
With what? The dogs that don't work on uneven surfaces?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
"feedback"
If you haven't noticed, it's quite hard to get things that balance in normal circumstances, let alone when it's falling over in a field.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Water.
You've invented a magical engine that runs on water?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
A few decades of research in leg labs and some development on the microprocessors area would be more than enough to produce robots with a far more acute stabilization system. With the benefits of extra legs.
The question is, WHY? They're not practical engineering, and the time and resources could be spent doing better things.

I'm sure we could build a giant butterfly that dropped honey on people, but again the question of Why? remains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
in short, only time can make autoaim things work.
'I don't have a solution, but there might be one someday!'
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 17:48   #152
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by I am Idler
when we developed a robot with the same brainpower as a human, wouldnt the robot be able to walk for himself, regardless of weight here and there?
It has nothing to do with brainpower. How much thought do you put into each step you take? Its done on instinct and familiarity, in other words, programming. However, as humans we have the ability to learn from each event, wheither we know it or not. Thus, we spend years learning to walk, and many more years becoming comfortable with our limbs. Even then, some actions do require a combination of brainpower and instinct, like climbing or running over broken terrain.

Computers are not self aware, they cannot learn (except within very specific frameworks). Since we still have NO idea how exactly it is that humans are self aware, this will not be easy to program. Computers are immensely powerful calculators which if programmed correctly can perform actions requiring finite calculations, very very quickly.

The most advanced we have at the moment is, for example, the mars rover, which can roll forward, and if it detects lose terain, slopes over a certain amount or obstacles, attempts a series of movement algorithms to get around the obstacle. However, it is rolling, which requires no specific motor control.

That is why battlefield robots of the future, IF they exist whch is incredibly unlikely, will either be on tank treads or (far more likely) flying, as the number of variables in air movement is significantly fewer.
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 17:49   #153
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
what was that cartoon called that had battle mechs in it and when it went to battle mode you had this cool 3D effect scene with the mechs battling in this computer squary environment?

it was the actual m3chwarrior cartoon, cant remember the full title, but if you google for 'm3chwarrior cartoon' i am sure you will find it
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 17:51   #154
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
"six legs" for the 3rd time.
It isnt all that hard. There are one-legged robots in MIT that work fine. They can even do tricks and shit.
One leg, two, four, six, thirty, whatever.


I dont care how many legs you want to put on it, but if you want to put it on legs at ALL, you first have to explain how they might provide ANY advantages over the infinitely simpler and more durable tank tread.
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:03   #155
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
With what? The dogs that don't work on uneven surfaces?
With whatever scout-bot they can think of. It might be the size of a bird. it doesnt matters.

Quote:
If you haven't noticed, it's quite hard to get things that balance in normal circumstances, let alone when it's falling over in a field.
yes it is. Using feedback, like humans do, anything can be accomplished.



Quote:
You've invented a magical engine that runs on water?
No, not me, someone intelligent came up with the idea of splitting water in O and H and using the H to move an engine. Quite a guy!.

Quote:
The question is, WHY? They're not practical engineering, and the time and resources could be spent doing better things.
Why did someone would mess with a stupid plane, considering we get this beautyfull and powerfull railways? These buggers will never work.
I can use the same logic with going to the moon, the ISS, the cathodic tube, messing around with radioactive things etc etc.
Quote:
I'm sure we could build a giant butterfly that dropped honey on people, but again the question of Why? remains.
It tastes good.


Quote:
'I don't have a solution, but there might be one someday!'
If I were an engineer, or worked in a 50 mile radius of something related with technology, i would have a chance of telling you something about it.
Im not. So i cant tell you anything besides this
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:06   #156
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
No, not me, someone intelligent came up with the idea of splitting water in O and H and using the H to move an engine. Quite a guy!.
So let me get this straight.

You want to use a power source in the dog

To electrolise the water into hydrogen and oxygen

And then use a fuel cell

To turn the hydrogen and oxygen

Into less electricity than it took to split them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Why did someone would mess with a stupid plane, considering we get this beautyfull and powerfull railways? These buggers will never work.
I can use the same logic with going to the moon, the ISS, the cathodic tube, messing around with radioactive things etc etc.
There's a difference between practical engineering and the advancement of science.

It's one thing to conduct research into such things, but when you already know the possibility and the problems there's not much point in going ahead.

See: The ISS. That's an absolutely immense failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
With whatever scout-bot they can think of. It might be the size of a bird. it doesnt matters.
Indeed. Why not scale this up and put guns one it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
yes it is. Using feedback, like humans do, anything can be accomplished.
Good, good. I'll tell the engineers who are trying to develop a robot that can balance that they're wasting their time, and HERE'S where they should be investigating!
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:07   #157
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
One leg, two, four, six, thirty, whatever.


I dont care how many legs you want to put on it, but if you want to put it on legs at ALL, you first have to explain how they might provide ANY advantages over the infinitely simpler and more durable tank tread.
we are slower than a cat, wich is 20 times smaller than us
why?
legs.
A roach can run THAT fast because it has 6.
The number of legs greatly enhances the speed.
The unique advantages of legs are
-manouverability
-ability to explore extreme terrains

with our current tech, it is counterproductive though. But im sure that it will be interesting later
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:10   #158
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Re: Mech stuff

Then centipedes should be faster than sound!
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:10   #159
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
we are slower than a cat, wich is 20 times smaller than us
why?
legs.
A roach can run THAT fast because it has 6.
The number of legs greatly enhances the speed.
The unique advantages of legs are
-manouverability
-ability to explore extreme terrains
As opposed to, say, a starling, which has only two legs, yet can travel many times faster than all of the above, is more manouverable, and can explore more extreme terrain? DIscounting of course the whole legs = faster thing, which is just plain silly.
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:16   #160
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
we are slower than a cat, wich is 20 times smaller than us
why?
legs.
A roach can run THAT fast because it has 6.
The number of legs greatly enhances the speed.
Uh... how to say this...

No.

It has nothing at ALL to do with the number of legs, but rather the design of the body and the limbs. Otherwise Millipedes should be reaching relativistic speeds, and all arachnids should be faster than all insects.

The actual number of legs is irrelevant. Humans are faster than many 4 legged animals, and slower than many more.

Body and limb design is the critical factor. ALL of which is irrelevant, as I did not ask why we should use multi-legged creatrures to replace people, I asked why we should use them to replace treads, which are faster than ANY legged animal, far simpler, far more durable and far more useful over different terrain.

Even if we could somehow get a legged robot working properly, what advantage would it give over treads? It would in fact be vastly less useful in most ways. A tracked vehicle can cross nearly any terrain and ground surface, legs cannot. As I said, why spend a HUGE amount iof money to develop a largely impossible stupidly expensive system that is in every measurable way inferior to what we already have?
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:16   #161
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
Then centipedes should be faster than sound!
Centipedes ARE faster than sound. No-one else but me knows.
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:17   #162
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Re: Mech stuff

Why did this thread last past the second post? Do some people have a deep seated need to believe in mechs or something?
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:17   #163
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Re: Mech stuff

[quote=MrL_JaKiri]So let me get this straight.

You want to use a power source in the dog

To electrolise the water into hydrogen and oxygen

And then use a fuel cell

To turn the hydrogen and oxygen

Into less electricity than it took to split them?
[quote]
No, not really.
I dont know how it works. It just does. Trust me.

Quote:
There's a difference between practical engineering and the advancement of science.

It's one thing to conduct research into such things, but when you already know the possibility and the problems there's not much point in going ahead.

See: The ISS. That's an absolutely immense failure.
It might be troublesome today. Later it wont.


Quote:
Indeed. Why not scale this up and put guns one it!
because it is a scouting robot.


Quote:
Good, good. I'll tell the engineers who are trying to develop a robot that can balance that they're wasting their time, and HERE'S where they should be investigating!
i think they have already thought about it
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:19   #164
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
Uh... how to say this...

No.

It has nothing at ALL to do with the number of legs, but rather the design of the body and the limbs. Otherwise Millipedes should be reaching relativistic speeds, and all arachnids should be faster than all insects.

The actual number of legs is irrelevant. Humans are faster than many 4 legged animals, and slower than many more.

Body and limb design is the critical factor. ALL of which is irrelevant, as I did not ask why we should use multi-legged creatrures to replace people, I asked why we should use them to replace treads, which are faster than ANY legged animal, far simpler, far more durable and far more useful over different terrain.

Even if we could somehow get a legged robot working properly, what advantage would it give over treads? It would in fact be vastly less useful in most ways. A tracked vehicle can cross nearly any terrain and ground surface, legs cannot. As I said, why spend a HUGE amount iof money to develop a largely impossible stupidly expensive system that is in every measurable way inferior to what we already have?
You are right.
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:21   #165
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
You are right.
He usually is
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:29   #166
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
It might be troublesome today. Later it wont.
The chances are quite slim, given they didn't spend enough money on it to make it into a viable scientific research facility. You can't get anywhere with just 2 crew, ya'see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
because it is a scouting robot.
This doesn't really answer the question... it's like me saying 'Could we put data on cds?' And you saying 'No, they're used for audio'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
No, not really.
I dont know how it works. It just does. Trust me.
Now, I'm a physicist, and I think anything that breaks the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics would have reached me by now. The problem is, you're starting with water, ending with water, and wanting to get energy out. That's what we call 'impossible'.
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:32   #167
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I'm a physicist,
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:34   #168
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
phys·i·cist P Pronunciation Key (fz-sst)
n.
A scientist who specializes in physics.
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:35   #169
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Now, I'm a physicist, and I think anything that breaks the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics would have reached me by now.
Yeah, in this forum, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!

(with apologies to Mat Groennig)
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:36   #170
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
This doesn't really answer the question... it's like me saying 'Could we put data on cds?' And you saying 'No, they're used for audio'
Yes it does. It is an stupid assumption. Well, instead of using those "predators" planes to scout lets pack them up with guns so them cant fly and shoot at things that they cant really aim.
Think in medieval times. They have a horseman. They sent it to scout.
Then you go to the general and say
"insetad of sending one guy alone, why dont you make it 30 men, that way he could attack the enemy too?"
Its stupid.


Quote:
Now, I'm a physicist, and I think anything that breaks the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics would have reached me by now. The problem is, you're starting with water, ending with water, and wanting to get energy out. That's what we call 'impossible'.
Yes i know what you are talking about. It is impossible to have a engine that runs on water. I was wrong.
What i did saw using water, though, was a blowtorch that would cut anything. It used water as fuel, and lots of eletricity.
Hidrogen cells must use hidrogen. Period
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:36   #171
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gayle29uk
Yeah, in this forum, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
One of my favourite lines.
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:39   #172
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Yes it does. It is an stupid assumption. Well, instead of using those "predators" planes to scout lets pack them up with guns so them cant fly and shoot at things that they cant really aim.
Think in medieval times. They have a horseman. They sent it to scout.
Then you go to the general and say
"insetad of sending one guy alone, why dont you make it 30 men, that way he could attack the enemy too?"
Its stupid.
You're not using the armed drones to scout you numpty.

Using the same example:

So you're saying that having armoured knights is a fundamentally silly concept?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Yes i know what you are talking about. It is impossible to have a engine that runs on water. I was wrong.
What i did saw using water, though, was a blowtorch that would cut anything. It used water as fuel, and lots of eletricity.
Hidrogen cells must use hidrogen. Period
1. Hydrogen.
2. Acquiring 'lots of electricity' may prove a tad difficult in a (to a point) self sufficient unit; you're using batteries for that, which takes us back to my Battery->Hydrogen->Battery arrangement.

[edit]

You're agreeing with me, aren't you?

YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DO THAT.

PS.

Alcohol fuel cells are
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:40   #173
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
One of my favourite lines.
Mine too.
I wonder how homer would know that.
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:41   #174
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Mine too.
I wonder how homer would know that.
You may not have noticed this, but The Simpsons isn't a documentary.
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:42   #175
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
You may not have noticed this, but The Simpsons isn't a documentary.

Send this mans family a ham, he is clearly a GENIUS
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:45   #176
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Work_Child
Send this mans family a ham, he is clearly a GENIUS
This isn't rocket science, it's brain surgery.
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:46   #177
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
You're not using the armed drones to scout you numpty.

Using the same example:

So you're saying that having armoured knights is a fundamentally silly concept?
I dont need to armour a drone to scout. Thats the whole concept behind scouting. Very small, fast, agile, undetectable thing that will get the information and quickly get out of the battlezone.
You cant just go doing this thing that can scout, fight, assault, defend, be amphibious, have anti air guns, serve as a trasnport,artilhery build it, be an comunications relay post, etc etc because it would do not a single one of the above properly.

It would be too big and slow to scout, too small to have the firepower required to defend this big thing, which need to be big to transport people, which also would mean that no thick armour can be placed, since you have to carry ammo for all this weapons... well you got the picture.

Scouting is scouting. Fighting is fighting.


Why would i be against armoured knights?

Quote:
1. Hydrogen.
2. Acquiring 'lots of electricity' may prove a tad difficult in a (to a point) self sufficient unit; you're using batteries for that, which takes us back to my Battery->Hydrogen->Battery arrangement.
Yes, i just said it cant be done.

Quote:
[edit]

You're agreeing with me, aren't you?

YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DO THAT.

PS.

Alcohol fuel cells are
Your point(also vermiions and RE´s was by far more easily defendable.
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:48   #178
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
You may not have noticed this, but The Simpsons isn't a documentary.
You dont say.
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:48   #179
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
This isn't rocket science, it's brain surgery.

Spam.
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:51   #180
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Yes it does. It is an stupid assumption. Well, instead of using those "predators" planes to scout lets pack them up with guns so them cant fly and shoot at things that they cant really aim.
Think in medieval times. They have a horseman. They sent it to scout.
Then you go to the general and say
"insetad of sending one guy alone, why dont you make it 30 men, that way he could attack the enemy too?"
Its stupid.

Dude, you're defending a robot that would suck in combat, and attacking one that would actually be more workable? Helicopters have guns & missles, just scale it down to smaller guns & missles and viola. Of course, it'd need auto-aiming, but aren't you working on the assumption that we'd have that?

And yes, they did go to the general and say that. It's called Calvary.
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:52   #181
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
I dont need to armour a drone to scout. Thats the whole concept behind scouting. Very small, fast, agile, undetectable thing that will get the information and quickly get out of the battlezone.
You cant just go doing this thing that can scout, fight, assault, defend, be amphibious, have anti air guns, serve as a trasnport,artilhery build it, be an comunications relay post, etc etc because it would do not a single one of the above properly.
You seem to be labouring under the assumption that I wanted both things done by the same machine. Surely my comparison of armoured knights might have let you onto that (same basic means of transport, but with more armour and weapons).
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 18:55   #182
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoot951

And yes, they did go to the general and say that. It's called Calvary.

Actually no, a scout isn't really part of a cavalry attack, a scout is too useful to lose in battle, a scout is a different breed of horseman, usually employed locally because he knows the lay of the land etc. So he wouldnt go back to the general and join in with the cavalry charge, namely because he wouldn't carry any armour and probably wouldnt have much training in fighting.


And actually, its called Cavalry
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 19:00   #183
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoot951
Dude, you're defending a robot that would suck in combat, and attacking one that would actually be more workable? Helicopters have guns & missles, just scale it down to smaller guns & missles and viola. Of course, it'd need auto-aiming, but aren't you working on the assumption that we'd have that?

And yes, they did go to the general and say that. It's called Calvary.
Actually, he's right that you couldn't use the armed one for scouting. With helicopters, there's a minimum size dictated by the size of the crew, but this isn't so with drones. Smaller = better, in scouting terms.

And I think you mean Cavalry. Calvary is to do with Jesus, dude.
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Unread 27 Nov 2003, 19:01   #184
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoot951
Dude, you're defending a robot that would suck in combat, and attacking one that would actually be more workable? Helicopters have guns & missles, just scale it down to smaller guns & missles and viola. Of course, it'd need auto-aiming, but aren't you working on the assumption that we'd have that?

And yes, they did go to the general and say that. It's called Calvary.
In combat? Scout drones are not meant to engage.
SO as the lone horseman that would scout for the better place to attack the enemy, and when.
Scouting is scouting..
The i would get my cladded men and horses and unleash hell on an specified enemy, at a time that the enemy is not ready and I am, all that because i scouted the damm thing before. With something fast, nearly undetectable and that would outrun fighting units, because it isnt armoured or with weapons.
Finito
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Unread 28 Nov 2003, 03:37   #185
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Actually, he's right that you couldn't use the armed one for scouting. With helicopters, there's a minimum size dictated by the size of the crew, but this isn't so with drones. Smaller = better, in scouting terms.

And I think you mean Cavalry. Calvary is to do with Jesus, dude.

I knew I had that wrong, but I put it thru spell-check half a dozen ways and couldn't get Cavalry out. :-/

And by helicopter I mean a small AI-controlled one, no crew. There was something pretty similar from Terminator (might've just been in the Univseral Studios themepark 3D movie, can't remember if it was in any of the real movies), it was basically a flying disk with a machine gun on the bottom, did well as a scout and as a murderous piece of machinery.
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Unread 28 Nov 2003, 17:39   #186
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Re: Mech stuff

youd need an increadibly complex program to get this thing to do much for you, and you do not want true ai, it might turn on you if you piss it off, although ai would be a good thing for research it could create and run its own sims etc and you wouldnt have to pay it, go free labour
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Unread 28 Nov 2003, 18:18   #187
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Re: Mech stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoot951
I knew I had that wrong, but I put it thru spell-check half a dozen ways and couldn't get Cavalry out. :-/

And by helicopter I mean a small AI-controlled one, no crew. There was something pretty similar from Terminator (might've just been in the Univseral Studios themepark 3D movie, can't remember if it was in any of the real movies), it was basically a flying disk with a machine gun on the bottom, did well as a scout and as a murderous piece of machinery.
scout and assassination missions are remarkably similar
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Unread 1 Dec 2003, 18:21   #188
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Re: Mech stuff

I am in physical pain from reading all that.
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Unread 10 Dec 2003, 02:41   #189
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Re: Mech stuff

GO SEGWAY

http://www.theregister.com/content/6/34397.html
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