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12 Mar 2014, 17:13
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#1
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Artificial Intelligence
If I were developing part of an online space game and wanted to make automated planets, what would the best approach be?
Say, for example, I had records of the recent researches, constructions, etc of players, so could mine this data to generate a few likely "best paths".
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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12 Mar 2014, 20:35
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 245
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Re: Artificial Intelligence
Hmm, interesting question, unfortunately I have no answers..
I would probably take a few steps back and think what the automated planets want to accomplish and want restrictions/limitations they have to work in..
Will they be working together? How many of them?
Will they be in an alliance?
Will they have intel on other alliances?
Will they be working together with other alliances?
The easiest way to gain roids is to bash noobs / planets not in a tag..
But that will hardly make the game noob friendly so seems like a bad path for automated planets
Another way could be too mass init roids.. Most alliance - in my limited experience - suffer with defence because members need sleep..
Automated planets do not need this so should be able to cover pretty much every incoming.
If there is a 60 tag alliance of automated planets then it would mean a possible 180 defence fleets.. Landing an attack on that seems difficult...
Letting the automated planets attack other alliances seems a bit trickier..
The best path to a successful attack is to know who you are attacking..
If they have no intel then it would be tricky..
If they have good intel then it might become easier but might still be difficult..
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12 Mar 2014, 20:41
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#3
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: Artificial Intelligence
At least you are looking into it appoco, sorry I have no technical expertise in this matter
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Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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13 Mar 2014, 21:15
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 8
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Re: Artificial Intelligence
I think I'd add them as an extra nomadic "raiding" race, they swoop into random galaxies and attack, sticking around only long enough for their fleets to attack and return (and so, be retalled). After that, they'd disappear without a trace.
Maybe needs a bit of work on the logistics, but I think any AI player with a permanent planet would be roided fairly regularly and thus not provide many benefits.
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17 Mar 2014, 10:49
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#5
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Artificial Intelligence
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bram
Hmm, interesting question, unfortunately I have no answers..
I would probably take a few steps back and think what the automated planets want to accomplish and want restrictions/limitations they have to work in..
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yes, something I've been thinking about for a worry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bram
Will they be working together? How many of them?
Will they be in an alliance?
Will they have intel on other alliances?
Will they be working together with other alliances?
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I'd want them in one or more alliances. I wouldn't want them co-operating with in-game alliances.
I would want them working together - ideally, at least defending each other, if not attacking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bram
The easiest way to gain roids is to bash noobs / planets not in a tag..
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This discourages new players. If there are 100-200 bot planets at a similar, level, they would almost become natural targets and take some of the heat off smaller new planets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bram
But that will hardly make the game noob friendly so seems like a bad path for automated planets
Another way could be too mass init roids.. Most alliance - in my limited experience - suffer with defence because members need sleep..
Automated planets do not need this so should be able to cover pretty much every incoming.
If there is a 60 tag alliance of automated planets then it would mean a possible 180 defence fleets.. Landing an attack on that seems difficult...
Letting the automated planets attack other alliances seems a bit trickier..
The best path to a successful attack is to know who you are attacking..
If they have no intel then it would be tricky..
If they have good intel then it might become easier but might still be difficult..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbington
I think I'd add them as an extra nomadic "raiding" race, they swoop into random galaxies and attack, sticking around only long enough for their fleets to attack and return (and so, be retalled). After that, they'd disappear without a trace.
Maybe needs a bit of work on the logistics, but I think any AI player with a permanent planet would be roided fairly regularly and thus not provide many benefits.
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My idea would be:
1) make bot planets that can initiate roids and do research/construction (somewhat coded, but needs tweaking, especially with the "new" shortened startup stuff to allocate, and also better logic for which research/construction to build)
2) make the bot planets produce reasonable ships -> no idea how to do this, currently it's a hardcoded thing and means each round someone has to manually allocate ships for the bots to randomly build. this is not wanted and why we removed the bot planets.
3) get some sort of basic combat understanding (so, at a minimum, they can hide their ships if it's worthwhile doing so).
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After this, there's the potential for putting the bots back.
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4) get the bots to defend each other "sometimes".
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advanced credit:
5) get the bots to attack based on (????) - worried if they end up deciding winning alliance, etc
I'd put bots in their own galaxies - either in a separate cluster (e.g. c100) or in galaxies mixed up with actual galaxies, if the bots were good enough. I don't think I'd ever mix them with human galaxies.
Edit:
So, back to the original point, what's the best way to look at identifying research/construction patterns?
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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17 Mar 2014, 21:38
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#6
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Founder of Planetarion
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 543
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Re: Artificial Intelligence
Rather than going into "artifical intelligence", I'd suggest looking at a bigger picture than just the "research/construction patterns".
I would assume that different players have different setups of these, and that the res/cons patterns are simply one (or two) parts of "the playing style". I would assume that the choice of "style" also affects what kind of ships they build, and what race they pick, what government and so on.
So I would go down that route, and create "templates".
A template would then contain all the required info on "where I'd like to end up", and the logic could try to work its way towards such a goal. You could break down the different goals with different priorities ofc. I don't know how often you are going to let the "AI" make "descisions" on what to do next, and what kind of actions you would allow it to take, but I will assume the logic for these bots run every tick.
You can then prioritise the different actions with simple numbers, like giving Researches priority 1, constructions priority 2, ship-building priority 3 etc, in case there are situations where there are several things you want to do at the same time, but the bot only has the resources for one such action. You should also implement a flag that you can use that would signal "Saving up resources for action 32" as I can imagine that will be handy.
You can make it as clever or dumb as you want to ofc, but I can see a simple system like this:
Assuming Research has pri 1, Constructions has pri 2, Ship-building has Pri 3 etc
Assuming a full template exists looking like this:
- Race
- Aggressiveness (0-10 or so?)
- Desired construction setup (say a percentage-value for each construction you can build)
- Run-away-setting
- Init-roids-importance (0 would be "always steal", 10 could be "always initiate up to a point like xxx roids are owned)
- Defend galaxy-mates importance (0 to 10 I guess)
And you can build from there.
But, as your main question was about res/cons patterns, my advice is to make complete templates (I'm sure veteran players can help you with creating these) that are right for each Race/Style combination. Researches are pretty damn simple ofc, as you can always supply a full list of the wanted order of researches. For the constructions, just let it pick the construction where the current percentage is farthest from the desired percentage (downwards only ofc).
Just my 2 cents, on a daily special offer of just 1!
- Spinner
The first Planetarion-player
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17 Mar 2014, 21:42
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#7
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Founder of Planetarion
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 543
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Re: Artificial Intelligence
I'm not entirely sure why you would put these bot-dudes into the universe though, as it does smell a bit like fixing symptoms rather than causes, but I see they might have a role to play in the "single player aspect" so to speak (which is cool!)
It would be awesome (and possibly terribly dangerous) (and quite possibly very daft) if you "hid them" and gave them planet- and ruler-names that would not stand out, allowed them to actually respond to some basic messages etc, rather than shouting out what they are, but I do see the potential issues with doing so
Technically, and psycologically, a very interesting concept ofc, that would only take, oh, say 5 years or so, to get right?
Have fun and good luck
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17 Mar 2014, 21:52
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#8
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Founder of Planetarion
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 543
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Re: Artificial Intelligence
And why is my forum title masked with *******'s??
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- Spinner
Original creator of Planetarion, ManagerLeague and AD2460.
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18 Mar 2014, 06:55
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#9
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p333333
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Somewhere out there...
Posts: 13
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Re: Artificial Intelligence
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner
And why is my forum title masked with *******'s??
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Are you a bot perhaps? Telling random stuff?
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33:33:33
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18 Mar 2014, 09:27
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#10
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Artificial Intelligence
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner
And why is my forum title masked with *******'s??
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Hi Spinner,
thanks for the feedback.
I honestly don't know - going into the admin tools I can't see any word that might match what is starred, and also I can't seem to display anything under the *s. If you pm, happy to try and help to fix it
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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18 Mar 2014, 14:28
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#11
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Founder of Planetarion
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 543
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Re: Artificial Intelligence
For some reason, it masks the word Creator. Oh well
Did my feedback help you in any way though, on your "AI" question?
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- Spinner
Original creator of Planetarion, ManagerLeague and AD2460.
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18 Mar 2014, 21:21
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#12
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Artificial Intelligence
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner
For some reason, it masks the word Creator. Oh well
Did my feedback help you in any way though, on your "AI" question?
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That is strange. I'll have a look and see why.
The feedback was interesting - I do happen to have a large collection of names which may be appropriate for Planetarion players, but I would not want to try and make them seamless.
My main idea is that, in theory, Planetarion works best as a roid "pyramid", with the people at the top getting roids from people generally the same level / down from them. It works best if, for every person on 1 million score, you have say 5 people on 700k score.
I need to research the actual distribution etc but I think one of the main issues is that there aren't enough people in the bottom half of the pyramid to provide roids, so those planets that do play get "overused" for targets and get discouraged into leaving - being attacked every night vs 1 night in 3-4 makes a huge difference.
I know that part of this is politics, etc, but if we can provide bots to take some of the targetting away from the other medium level planets then that might help. Obviously, more asteroids means the top players might be able to get ahead more quickly, so I'd want the planets to provide some defence (enough to be comparable-ish to a planet of the same rank, or slightly weaker).
I did have the idea of settings already (the old bot script has a few settings and options), but I'll see what is worth configuring.
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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19 Mar 2014, 22:15
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#13
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Founder of Planetarion
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 543
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Re: Artificial Intelligence
So if I get you correctly:
You should consider to sign up 5 bots for every signup from a player so that targets become plentiful.
And with late joining bots, late joining players have targets too.
But ofc, as you indicate, this will boost the active and experienced players the most, and they will race ahead faster than before with target abundancy.
I thought there were severe limitations in play when it comes to who you can attack (score-differences etc), so a small planet can't be hit by a large one, hence it seems unlikely to be hit every night for 3-4 weeks? Or is this not the case anymore?
I am still leaning towards my old statement though, that to "fix" Planetarion, it needs to be made into something "un-Planetarionish" first.
But, since you did bring up these bot-planets...I see one very cool thing about them, and that is their potential when it comes to training new users. Single-player wise, the bots are ideal for "target practice", to learn and see which ships are best used against this or that kind of fleet. And no, the stats-page is not doing the same job, teach them ingame, and have quests to overcome these "single-player-bots".
"Take out the fleet at Testplanet 1 15:7 using no more than 20 ships" etc. Then he would have to scan it, figure out what kind of ships he has, and learn what kind of ships he should use...Thats just an example, but it's something that could be made quite interesting. Finish the quest, and receive some free ship of a suitable type, that might have to do with the next quest...and so on...
Anyway, good luck with your AI-bots
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- Spinner
Original creator of Planetarion, ManagerLeague and AD2460.
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19 Mar 2014, 22:17
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#14
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Founder of Planetarion
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 543
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Re: Artificial Intelligence
Oh, and just for the record, I still think there are like 20 more important things you should do with Planetarion before going to bot-planets
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- Spinner
Original creator of Planetarion, ManagerLeague and AD2460.
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7 Jan 2015, 22:49
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#15
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: Artificial Intelligence
I believe neural networks could be a promising start.
In a couple of million rounds they may be sufficiently advanced to provide actual competition. Who knows?
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"Oh, wretched race of a day, children of chance and misery, why do ye compel me to say to you what it were most expedient for you not to hear? What is best of all is for ever beyond your reach: not to be born, not to be, to be nothing. The second best for you, however, is soon to die". Silenus, tutor to Dionysos, speaking to King Midas.
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8 Jan 2015, 09:00
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#16
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Fightin-irish for life
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: guinness brewery
Posts: 2,177
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Re: Artificial Intelligence
With no technical savvy whatsoever could one person run these bot planets as an alliance, with extra queues in con/res and the ability to send the same request to all planets of the same race within the bot ally. Eg, all ter are controlled by a master planet within the ally so telling the master planet to build wyv/drag to a 2:1 ratio would be copied by all other bot ter etc etc
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Ascendancy, now with added Irish
"In the absence of orders, find something and kill it."
-Rommel
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8 Jan 2015, 09:56
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6
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Re: Artificial Intelligence
Hi
If the bots should take the attacks on smaller planets (<universe mean) the bots should be mximizing based on constraints; Other than automatically deciding strategy for the bot, I don't see any problems with creating a AI. For a AI/bot the target will be to maximize score. Depending on what the actual strategy for a specific bot the way it should prioritize would primarily strategy type (agressive attacker, defender, scanner and/or cominations of these) secondly on data available (ie scans, tags and so on)
To not get a runnaway bot they could be set to only attack other bots, minimizing accumulation of roids, resources.
Otherwize, I'm agreeing with Spinner.
Cool project.
Seems like a lot of coding.
so good luck.
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30 May 2015, 18:17
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#18
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Commander in Briefs!
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 783
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Re: Artificial Intelligence
paol bots
This simply uses a fleet design, and build according to to that, a little random in the building but will generally build close to it. Same with constructions, research, etc.
Attacking and defending are hard for a bot to do with out a bcalc,
I got them to look for targets, then got a ratio based on bot value vs target value. and its its in a window then attack, they might crash but then I had 10k bots so doesnt really matter, and they still steal your roids so it doesnt make it easy for you.
Why don't you just assign all bots a new race (or ETD), and no player can use it.
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