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Unread 31 Aug 2003, 01:25   #1
1-X
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the educational value of discussion
(as an off-topic issue from "Dickheads go home!")

Does everyone here believe they're always right?

Has anyone ever changed their view on an issue as a result of reading a reply, and then publicly admitted they were wrong?

Do you avoid a thread after someone has proven your ideas to be foolish? (and then hold a grudge against that person in future discussions?)

How refreshing it would be to see...
Quote:
Not originally posted by Dante Hicks (for example)
Thanks for educating me. I recant my previous sincerely held belief and embrace the new knowledge you saw fit to share, and I'm not being sarcastic. Honestly.
I'd like to think I would be big enough to do this if I was ever wrong
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Unread 31 Aug 2003, 01:28   #2
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you're totally wrong in this.
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Unread 31 Aug 2003, 09:57   #3
Dante Hicks
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If I'm factually wrong on something, I'll be the first to admit it. Where I am posting something I am unsure of I will generally pepper it with disclaimers :
Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I'm probably wrong.
Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Maybe I'm wrong here, but that's the association I have.
etc. Most of my posts are either me talking from personal experience or stating some kind of subjective moral opinion (e.g. "I think that freedom is a good thing"). I cannot really be "wrong" on any ethical opinion - the best you could hope for is that my moral system would be self-contradictary. You obviously might find it disagreeable or impractical, but those are seperate issues.

Obviously when I post I think my opinion is correct, otherwise I wouldn't post it. If I was in the middle of a long post and suddenly thought "Oh ****, I'm talking bollocks" then I'd simply delete it and start again from my new opinion.

I don't think I've ever read a single post which has made me think "Oh, damn - I'm utterly wrong". But I'm sure over time my opinion may have been fine-tuned by coming into contact with different thinkers. But my overall premise is an ethical one - I believe in Liberty, Equality and Fraternity (or Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness if you prefer). I don't see how I could be "wrong" here.

There are loads of tactical issues, of course. Right now, I think it'd be a good idea to develop alternative energy sources with a bit more urgency than we're doing now (for a variety of reasons). I am therefore kind of "anti-fossil fuel" (on a low level). If however, we found nine hundred trillion barrells of oil somewhere plus one of you clever science types invented something to neutralise global warming plus pollution then I'll change my mind. The tactics we use to make life better are ever changing, and I'm not wed to any of them.
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Unread 31 Aug 2003, 10:00   #4
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The only person I've ever admitted I was wrong to in discussion was Vermillion - I wasn't the first and I wasn't the first and not the last. However, having not participated in serious discussions here for at least a year and a half, I haven't had reason to take any educational value from anything.
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Unread 31 Aug 2003, 10:03   #5
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no yes no
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Unread 31 Aug 2003, 10:03   #6
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its not a case of one post proving you wrong, its more a case of little alterations to your opinions over time as you come into contact with different ppl.
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Unread 31 Aug 2003, 13:52   #7
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queball contributes so much and asks for so littlequeball contributes so much and asks for so littlequeball contributes so much and asks for so littlequeball contributes so much and asks for so littlequeball contributes so much and asks for so littlequeball contributes so much and asks for so littlequeball contributes so much and asks for so littlequeball contributes so much and asks for so littlequeball contributes so much and asks for so littlequeball contributes so much and asks for so littlequeball contributes so much and asks for so little
I don't have really have ideas and my opinions change on the slightest whim. "no yes yes"
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Unread 31 Aug 2003, 14:01   #8
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no, yes, no.
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Unread 31 Aug 2003, 16:49   #9
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no yes no

although sometimes i will only come round after an argument (and not just on this board), then forget/not bother/not have the opportunity to say i was wrong.
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Unread 31 Aug 2003, 23:34   #10
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Re: the educational value of discussion
Quote:
Originally posted by 1-X
(as an off-topic issue from "Dickheads go home!")

Does everyone here believe they're always right?

Has anyone ever changed their view on an issue as a result of reading a reply, and then publicly admitted they were wrong?

Do you avoid a thread after someone has proven your ideas to be foolish? (and then hold a grudge against that person in future discussions?)

How refreshing it would be to see...
I'd like to think I would be big enough to do this if I was ever wrong
most people only tend to argue things they believe in so i doubt a radicle change of beliefs or values is going to occur. i.e vaio isnt going to think immigration is right/acceptable just because someone can provide a good reason why it is
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Unread 1 Sep 2003, 12:58   #11
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yes yes yes
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Unread 1 Sep 2003, 13:43   #12
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If I realise I'm wrong, then cool. Because by embracing the truth, I'm right. So in fact, by saying "oh yes, I was wrong, this is right", I am in fact becoming right. Being right is more important than trying to hide you were wrong.

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Unread 1 Sep 2003, 14:19   #13
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i never change my opinion and im always right.
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Unread 1 Sep 2003, 15:19   #14
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With regards to 'dickheads go home' immigration thread I started reading it being completly against damn immigrants coming to my country etc but by the end I was almost completly on the side of the pro immigration people. I dont actually think they had a better case but they sure as hell argued it a lot better and ended up persuading me.

HOWEVER in retrospect this might be because I did not participate in that discussion, preferring just to read it. I find that when I am actually involved in a debate I am much more inclined to stick to my guns and keep arguing EVEN WHEN GETTING OWNED because I dont want to be proved wrong. This is also true in real life arguments when I dont have unlimited time and all the internet to help me when arguing with friends.
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Unread 1 Sep 2003, 15:25   #15
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Exclamation
I think it's a mistake to say that everybodies opinions are totally solid, but I think opinions need time and exposure to differing viewpoints before they are fully 'mature'.

I suspect, although this is just unsubstantiated tosh, that the more informed and knowledgable you are about a subject, the more resolute you will be in your opinions on it - providing you are recptive to knowledge and ideas.

My opinions have gone in the scope of about three years from Marxist to solid Social Democrat.

I don't know if I might 'change' in the future, but I think I've probably found my niche.
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Unread 1 Sep 2003, 15:47   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marilyn Manson

I suspect, although this is just unsubstantiated tosh, that the more informed and knowledgable that you think you are about a subject, the more resolute you will be in your opinions on it - providing you are recptive to knowledge and ideas.
added 3 words to increase the corespondence between your theory and the real world.
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Unread 1 Sep 2003, 17:01   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
added 3 words to increase the size of my e-penis and the corespondence between your theory and the real world.

added 6 words just because.
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Unread 1 Sep 2003, 17:52   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
i like bagels
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Unread 1 Sep 2003, 21:01   #19
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*, yes, **

* - When i state an opinion - on a subjective matter - of course my opinion is right. Why would i state something that wasnt right to me? I try and keep myself open, but i dont think anyone can. I cant see Dante ever not being a commie, for example, regardless how hard and how coherently and how effectively anyone or everyone argued.

**- not deliberately, but sometimes it happens. Just like when you take an opposite viewpoint than someone, and quote parts of their response you disagree with - presumeably the parts you dont dispute you are in agreement with, but it goes unspoken
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Unread 1 Sep 2003, 21:06   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
My opinions have gone in the scope of about three years from Marxist to solid Social Democrat.
You used to be a Marxist?
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Unread 1 Sep 2003, 22:39   #21
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I changed my opinion regarding 'being a prisoner in a matrix style environment. Ie. ignorence being bliss as a result of someone on here.

Theres a name for opinions formed that are completely unreceptive to discussion: religion.
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Unread 1 Sep 2003, 22:44   #22
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It's kinda hard a question to ask, beacause, well, most discussions here don't go on the "hard facts", but more on opinions, and well, you can't really feel wrongly. I mean, if you think that Marx was a guy, you don't think wrong from Nodrog, just differently.
Or something.

But, i've changed by being here. I mean, not on single cases (at least not that i can remeber) but more on my "general policies". Simply beacause i've learned stuff by people.

Im still a dirty little punk, thought.

(This post made no sense in my head, but hey, it's my ****ing opinion bastards!)
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Unread 1 Sep 2003, 23:00   #23
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you little punk


i like discussions and usually i get to win
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Unread 1 Sep 2003, 23:15   #24
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Unread 1 Sep 2003, 23:21   #25
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well - "discussion" did help me see that my wanting to **** up my ex gf's life was stupid, wrong and illogical. I suppose if anything i did admit i was wrong - which is rare (read the thread near the end to see where)

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Unread 2 Sep 2003, 15:57   #26
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Exclamation
Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
added 3 words to increase the corespondence between your theory and the real world.
Uneccesary, considering the final part of it.

Whether you do know or think you know is uneccesary and is a seperate point regarding the arrogance that ignorance creates.
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Unread 2 Sep 2003, 15:58   #27
Marilyn Manson
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Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Marilyn Manson has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
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Originally posted by Dante Hicks
You used to be a Marxist?
Yes.
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