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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 02:29   #1
KingAlan
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Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Right now, score= value + (60*XP).

Perhaps lowering that factor to 50 would help deal with XP wh0res...
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 02:45   #2
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

I agree, but it shouldnt be done midround. Its something for next round if anything im afraid
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 06:30   #3
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

I don't understand what's really wrong with going for XP, it helps balance out the game, and it keeps fleet value being all that matters. For example my gal keeps getting pounded but we're still in the t25 because we constantly attack. So our values are low because we're always getting hammered, yet because of XP our continued active play in the face of adversity is rewarded. What's so wrong with that?
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 07:19   #4
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
I don't understand what's really wrong with going for XP, it helps balance out the game, and it keeps fleet value being all that matters. For example my gal keeps getting pounded but we're still in the t25 because we constantly attack. So our values are low because we're always getting hammered, yet because of XP our continued active play in the face of adversity is rewarded. What's so wrong with that?
Absolutely nothing at all.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 10:15   #5
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

I assume the intention with xp was to lessen the loss of being roided/losing fleet and that in itself is of course a good thing. The problem is that the xp advantage is too big. Atm you don’t need an alliance nor gal to be a top 100 player if you go all out xp whoring and that completely change the game. Its a game of individuals that encourage solo play over alliance play and if that’s allowed to continue pa will only be a shallow shadow of its former glory were everybody just log in once a day to send out 3 attack fleets. Sounds pretty sad to me.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 13:54   #6
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

i'd love to see the day where a full alliance is filled with those who know how to xp hunt properly, do it and win the round, just to shut you whiners up and make you adjust to it by learning how to beat xpwhores (and there are many many obvious ways) instead of relying on the pa team to lower it's effectivity because people are presumably too lazy/shit to do anything themselves.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 14:14   #7
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

The game is slightly too attack-based at the moment. This is partly the fault of stats, as much as XP. Stealing is also a related issue - Ziks lose roids but steal ships, planets gain XP via roids but loose ships, both are happy, as stealing happens after combat.
Changing the formula by changing the factor of 60 won't make a huge difference, but any changes have to keep in mind Zik, as in effect it's a Zik vs non-zik score formula
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 14:17   #8
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

This round I've been an XP whore. I was a Cath using a CR fleet, and got pretty successful while peaking at 350k value.

Yesterday I landed with a piggy on what appeared to be defence for that piggy. It wasn't - it was buccaneers faked as anti-CO. Boom went my entire fleet, essentially.


This will happen to most XP whores at some point in the round, and it's very difficult to start over again. What should happen to me? As it happened, I lost 40% of my total value (the rest is constructions and roids) and am left sitting on about 1.3m score. I'll have to restart my attacks from scratch.

Without XP, I would have absolutly nothing left. With XP, my previous successes this round have been rewarded, and so I have far more incentive to carry on. That's why we have XP, and why we must keep it.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 15:20   #9
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
i'd love to see the day where a full alliance is filled with those who know how to xp hunt properly, do it and win the round, just to shut you whiners up and make you adjust to it by learning how to beat xpwhores (and there are many many obvious ways) instead of relying on the pa team to lower it's effectivity because people are presumably too lazy/shit to do anything themselves.
Fleetcatches ftw tbh.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 15:21   #10
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 15:24   #11
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
i'd love to see the day where a full alliance is filled with those who know how to xp hunt properly, do it and win the round, just to shut you whiners up and make you adjust to it by learning how to beat xpwhores (and there are many many obvious ways) instead of relying on the pa team to lower it's effectivity because people are presumably too lazy/shit to do anything themselves.
Your so cool! I wish I was like you
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 15:25   #12
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

The greatness of XP is that you can get reduced to nothing, yet still have something to play for.

You can play for value and be very successful

or play for XP and be very successful

I've lost my fleet 3 times this round - previous to the days of XP, or by even reducing XP, there would be far less incentive to play. XP presents a true test of target selection, being able to pick holes in people's fleet, working out if they will get defence, how the defender will think, not to mention relying on the big task of fleet preservation (as losing your fleet = less XP for a while).

Playing for XP is a skill, just as much as playing for value and trying to outmuscle your opposition.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 15:32   #13
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
i'd love to see the day where a full alliance is filled with those who know how to xp hunt properly, do it and win the round, just to shut you whiners up and make you adjust to it by learning how to beat xpwhores (and there are many many obvious ways) instead of relying on the pa team to lower it's effectivity because people are presumably too lazy/shit to do anything themselves.
I really wanted ND to try it this round, but they didnt want to

and jerome, you are the perfect example of how to stop it, fleetcatch and constantly roid, eventually the XP whore will be sick of rebuilding fleet... until then, shut up whining people and adjust.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 15:38   #14
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
Your so cool! I wish I was like you
oh, i do offer lessons at fairly extravagant prices to get you upto 66% of my greatness!
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 15:55   #15
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fish
I really wanted ND to try it this round, but they didnt want to

and jerome, you are the perfect example of how to stop it, fleetcatch and constantly roid, eventually the XP whore will be sick of rebuilding fleet... until then, shut up whining people and adjust.
what makes you think you've stopped me?
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 16:13   #16
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
The game is slightly too attack-based at the moment. This is partly the fault of stats, as much as XP. Stealing is also a related issue - Ziks lose roids but steal ships, planets gain XP via roids but loose ships, both are happy, as stealing happens after combat.
Changing the formula by changing the factor of 60 won't make a huge difference, but any changes have to keep in mind Zik, as in effect it's a Zik vs non-zik score formula

I disagree about it being too attack oriented. imho this round has been great in that respect, if you look at the gal rankings no galaxy has a commanding lead, nor does any ally. This is a huge advance for the game in my opinion, and for once a round may be close all the way to the wire, which is great for the competitive nature of the game. Alliances/galaxies can be down but not out and still have plenty to fight for late in the round, I think it's great.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 16:19   #17
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
what makes you think you've stopped me?
Well, stopping isnt the correct word, slowing down your growth to make it far easier for you to be caught by many others. You have low value, and low roid count, and a small fleet which wont be too hard to stop, and even if you manage to land again, another fleetcatch and you are going to be struggling again etc
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 16:32   #18
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

slowing you down so lokken can grow he means jer :P which apparantly worked
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 16:37   #19
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
slowing you down so lokken can grow he means jer :P which apparantly worked
good intel dude, very very good intel.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 16:40   #20
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fish
good intel dude, very very good intel.
damn you turned into a cranky bugger lately heh
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 17:00   #21
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fish
Well, stopping isnt the correct word, slowing down your growth to make it far easier for you to be caught by many others. You have low value, and low roid count, and a small fleet which wont be too hard to stop, and even if you manage to land again, another fleetcatch and you are going to be struggling again etc
well it's alright, it seems to be a characteristic of mine to be so goddamn amazing that my competitors sacrifice their own time and growth period to deny me (and me alone)

edit: characteristic is the wrong term, it's just something that occurs every round, tendency would probably be better
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 17:00   #22
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

so another .. suggestion .. to stop the "XP madness".
How much of the XP-system was going to make it to PAN anyway?
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 19:37   #23
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Seeing as cypher randomly decided to delete a perfectly good thread mid-discussion I'm going to continue it in this related thread. In response to treveler's last post...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
Does that mean that you agree that the xp advantage is to big this round and that we need to make some adjustment for the comming round?
Well, first I'd let this round reach its conclusion before making definitive judgements.

Quote:
REGARDLESS of skill or if two ppl with equal skills play, the one who put in the most effort needs to gain more. If not no one will put in that extra effort. It feels like talking to a brick wall here.
Personally I don't think people are encouraged that much to come to a game which requires 8 hours a day of activity including at bizzare times during the night. I don't think games which say "you put in 14 hours a day and that guy only put in 5, so you finish ahead of him" are that attractive to people. Effort is tiring dude.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 19:50   #24
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

yep don't see any people if people just go insulting trev and moan about ranks while infact they never achieved anything. was hoping we could keep that shit on AD.. but seeing as no mod felt like removing it, i figured why not remove the thread...

Other reason was PA team couldn't be arsed to reply there and make any sensible post, which meant it was just gonna be XP whores saying it was good and people with high value saying it was bad.

Personally I and many others don't play pa cuz it's a good game or whatever, but because it's a fun community (mostly). No matter how anyone wants to sugarcoat xp whoring it won't be good for the community as there is absolutely no need for one anymore seeing as everyone will xp whore as it's BY FAR the easiest way to do well.

p.s. It still made me laugh loads that people could even suggest that it takes any skill to xpwhore
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 19:56   #25
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
p.s. It still made me laugh loads that people could even suggest that it takes any skill to xpwhore
Then how come all the XP players don't have exactly the same amount of XP? Luck? Activity?
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 20:12   #26
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
yep don't see any people if people just go insulting trev and moan about ranks while infact they never achieved anything. was hoping we could keep that shit on AD.. but seeing as no mod felt like removing it, i figured why not remove the thread...
One poster in one post does not equal people. It wasn't really an insult really, more of an ad hominem argument albeit a valid enough one.

Quote:
Other reason was PA team couldn't be arsed to reply there and make any sensible post, which meant it was just gonna be XP whores saying it was good and people with high value saying it was bad.
Indeed, however the relative merits of both people's arguments can still be measured and evaluated leading to a general conclusion over which areas either side are right or wrong in and to what extent.

Quote:
Personally I and many others don't play pa cuz it's a good game or whatever, but because it's a fun community (mostly). No matter how anyone wants to sugarcoat xp whoring it won't be good for the community as there is absolutely no need for one anymore seeing as everyone will xp whore as it's BY FAR the easiest way to do well.
You're taking an appallingly narrow view on this. The community is dying. This could bring in new people. The people who have returned this round like xp. As well as this people didn't form communities because they needed to scrounge defence. Communities are formed because people enjoy social interaction. It's not like xp whores this round quit irc and the forums and buggered off to the north pole to live in total isolation.

Quote:
p.s. It still made me laugh loads that people could even suggest that it takes any skill to xpwhore
It makes me laugh when people suggest that it took any skill to do well at old-style PA
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 20:49   #27
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Then how come all the XP players don't have exactly the same amount of XP? Luck? Activity?
i think a big part of it is luck but another point is that a lot of value-players dont take it serious when a fleet of 50 terran ships shows up on their overview.

i landed on 2 big Ziks today with about 800-1000k value with 50 DE and i lost 5 (FIVE) pods. tbh i expected to lose both fleets completly because they steal it all away ...

the way to gain score by XP is easy but i think every "value-player" could do something against such attacks and made them not worth it anymore.
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 04:51   #28
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jupp
i think a big part of it is luck but another point is that a lot of value-players dont take it serious when a fleet of 50 terran ships shows up on their overview.

i landed on 2 big Ziks today with about 800-1000k value with 50 DE and i lost 5 (FIVE) pods. tbh i expected to lose both fleets completly because they steal it all away ...

the way to gain score by XP is easy but i think every "value-player" could do something against such attacks and made them not worth it anymore.
Zik and Xan are the value races. Zik is tough to stop Ter ships. Zik mostly has to rely on Ally and Gal help. FR seems to be a problem too. Xan seem to be vulnerable to Ter BS and Cath CR. But I have seen plenty of Ziks and Xans playing more for XP than to grow value. Seems most players are using XP in one way or another.
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 09:44   #29
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Am I the only one here that understands it's not just black or white?

To do well by the end of the round you'll need BOTH XP AND VALUE. Not just one or the other.

They are both important.
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 10:28   #30
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Am I the only one here that understands it's not just black or white?

To do well by the end of the round you'll need BOTH XP AND VALUE. Not just one or the other.

They are both important.
QUIT TALKING SENSE!
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 12:13   #31
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

you dont need any skill to xp whore.

i log in 2 times a day. send some attacks and im top 15 without having to try.

xp sucks. hope they will make it count less in the next round. or make the stats abit less attackin based.
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 13:43   #32
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by qSp
you dont need any skill to xp whore.

i log in 2 times a day. send some attacks and im top 15 without having to try.

xp sucks. hope they will make it count less in the next round. or make the stats abit less attackin based.
No, you mean you don't need any high activity. Logging in twice a day can still estimate to a playtime of 4 hours a day which is pretty much, imho

Skill is not activity. Skill is spotting loopholes in fleets, composing a decent roiding fleet, scheduling your game actions in the most efficient way - and skill even is knowing what is most efficient for defense.
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 14:26   #33
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

I`m a bit puzzeled by what you mean with both tbh. Its a bit hard to just have xp and no value.

Does This player have both?

He seems a likely winner but hardly has any fleet. He seems to cap around 300-400 roids each day and lose it all every other day.
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 14:34   #34
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
I`m a bit puzzeled by what you mean with both tbh. Its a bit hard to just have xp and no value.

Does This player have both?

He seems a likely winner but hardly has any fleet. He seems to cap around 300-400 roids each day and lose it all every other day.
Has that planet won the round? No. Come back when he has.
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 14:37   #35
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Why do you participate in this discussion then as it is completely pointless as the round isnt over. Why is this topic even open?
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 14:39   #36
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
Why do you participate in this discussion then as it is completely pointless as the round isnt over. Why is this topic even open?
Bored.

I don't think it's pointless util the round is over, but the scare-mongering and whining is pretty pointless.
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 14:41   #37
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Where have I whined exactly?
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 14:51   #38
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Funny you should ask, but I wasn't actually talking about your posts when I said whining.

Edit: The primary reason I'm worried about the discussion is that PAteam might (in its infinite shitness) decide to agree with one party and make mid-round changes to accomodate them. They've done it once already this round.
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 14:57   #39
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

I questioned the logic in your reply and asked why you bothered discussing something you stated we couldn’t find an answer for until end of round. You seem to have a strange definition of whining.
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 15:02   #40
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Edit: The primary reason I'm worried about the discussion is that PAteam might (in its infinite shitness) decide to agree with one party and make mid-round changes to accomodate them. They've done it once already this round.
I don’t think anyone want that. I certainly don’t as that would completely **** up the round for those who went for xp, as it is a perfectly valid strategy. I just don’t think it’s the path PA should take in the future.
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 15:08   #41
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Am I the only one here that understands it's not just black or white?

To do well by the end of the round you'll need BOTH XP AND VALUE. Not just one or the other.

They are both important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
Does This player have both?

He seems a likely winner but hardly has any fleet. He seems to cap around 300-400 roids each day and lose it all every other day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Has that planet won the round? No. Come back when he has.
You and I obviously have different definitions of likely winner. Yours appears to be 'currently in the lead and gaining approximately 420k score from XP per day'. You forget that one bad day means no score for him at all that day. Sure, he might be ahead by a bit now, but unlike when a value player is ahead like that, this lead can be cut down in the space of days.

Do I think an XP player* will win this round? I think it's quite possible, perhaps even likely. But I don't think it's fair to compare his current standing and value against Tomkat's claim that by the end of the round you'll need both.

* Defined as someone who has at least 2x as much score from XP than value.

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
I don’t think anyone want that. I certainly don’t as that would completely **** up the round for those who went for xp, as it is a perfectly valid strategy. I just don’t think it’s the path PA should take in the future.
I see. That's a valid position, imo. I disagree with it. I don't think the value game can be a sustainable game because of the pressure it puts upon command members (specificallys DCs and BCs (in that order)). I don't think a a game purely about XP (in the everyone 3-fleeting) sense sounds terribly interesting. It'd be like a speedgame in slow motion. However, I do worry that the reaction to this round will be a backlash based on the complaints (and whining) of value players, rather than an evolution to take advantage of the features that make the game playable by the 'skilled', albeit casual player.
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 15:18   #42
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

I used him only as an example that there is a likely possibility that a xp player can win a round. I`m also wanted to know exactly what he meant by both. Where does the line go? Is the current #1 a pure xp player or does he have both?
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 15:41   #43
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
Is the current #1 a pure xp player or does he have both?
Doing both is probably the winning combination. XP for the first part of the round and value for the last part.
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 15:48   #44
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
I don't understand what's really wrong with going for XP, it helps balance out the game, and it keeps fleet value being all that matters. For example my gal keeps getting pounded but we're still in the t25 because we constantly attack. So our values are low because we're always getting hammered, yet because of XP our continued active play in the face of adversity is rewarded. What's so wrong with that?
In my opinion the problem is this.

XP players attack without retaliation. More problematically is that they cannot be destroyed.

Value players can be fleetcaught and they lose their edge.

XP play promotes disregard for ships, and a 'you cant mess up' attitude.

This round has accentuated XP play more than previous, but its hard to confirm until near the end of the round.
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 15:58   #45
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
I used him only as an example that there is a likely possibility that a xp player can win a round. I`m also wanted to know exactly what he meant by both. Where does the line go? Is the current #1 a pure xp player or does he have both?
Given my definition of an xp player, that xp makes up 2/3 or more of the player's score, there are currently 128 XP players in the top200, whereof 71 are in the top100 and 41 are in the top50. This last number is the highest it has ever been, and has been more or less stable for the last 5 days.

Unfortunately this simple definition isn't able to discern players such as the one in the top10 that is also top30 on value.

Generallly, I'd say the actual divide includes criteria such as whether or not they are an asset to their alliance. A player in a small (in the value sense of the word) alliance can have a small defense fleet and still contribute 'equally' to his alliance's defense. By attacking with 2 fleets every day, and still defending, he can probably gain a good amount of XP, and a rank that is much higher than a player in that alliance would traditionally be able to achieve.

A lot of people want simple changes to nerf XP, but I don't think this is fair to players such as 21:8:8, who has high value, but also has high XP. He's been attacking players around his own value and is (imo) correctly ahead of the other value players. One way to improve the situation is to weight XP against the universal mean value.
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 16:01   #46
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

does anyone actually have a problem with XP-whores that are not high on the rankings? (below 2/2.5 mil score or so).
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 16:07   #47
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Europatriot
does anyone actually have a problem with XP-whores that are not high on the rankings? (below 2/2.5 mil score or so).
In round 13 there was a lot of whining about a few xp players ending up in the top10/50/100. 2.5 million is enough to be in the top100 at the moment, so I guess some people still don't like that. The main problem people have is players who are ranked higher than themselves, but they can't do anything directly about due to the bashlimit.
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 16:19   #48
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Well much depends on how we define a xp player but I think the numbers you found says a lot tbh.

I wonder how many who went for a pure xp strategy ie. attacking not (just) for roids but for xp alone. I think there is a lot less than for the conventional stragegy and imo that imply that the xp strategy is to "powerfull" in the absense of a better word (so far).
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 17:25   #49
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
I wonder how many who went for a pure xp strategy ie. attacking not (just) for roids but for xp alone.
XP players need roids. XP is all about converting (relatively) small amounts of value into very large amounts of XP.

Consider this:

A small player may mine 200 roids for 1400 ticks (let's assume that's how long a round is for a moment):

200*1400=28000 roidticks.

A larger player might mine, say 10-15 times that.

So if the smaller player can convert every point of value into at least 2 points of XP, he'll be able to compete on a pure XP vs value basis. Obviously it's a little more complex than this. But an XP player with more resources can afford to land more often (because he doesn't need to convert quite as much).
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 21:33   #50
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Re: Vice Bust for XP wh0res- an idea to deal with this...

value players don't have that many roids really.. only a few.. and even they don't get even close to the gains an XP player makes, which means it's never gonna work.. not to mention value players will run out of targets while xp players can easily get steady roids day in day out and never run out of targets
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