is it happening, and if so, what's being done

[aNgRyDuCk]

I've heard a number of ppl in different channels talking about certain "circular farming" and "multiple planets used by 1 player " happening on a large scale basis by certain groups. So call this thread is in fact a fact finding mission , as I'd like to understand more about what exactly is supposedly happening, and if in fact it is happening, what exactly is the PA crew doing about investigating these claims.

Keep in mind that at this point in time, I am pointing no fingers at anyone... just interested to find out more about the topic.

any information would be appreciated, if you have accusations without fact or some substancial circumstancial evidence, then senseless for you to comment.

[Psi_K]

The real question, since you have all this knowledge, is what are YOU doing about it?
Throw the evidence towards PA Crew, they know what to do.... ususally.

[pig]

Interesting question.

If its circular farming which im assuming is

Planet A is mother planet

Planet D is attacked by Planet C

Planet C is attacked by Planet B

Planet B is attacked by Planet A

Planet A gets muchos roids, xp and ships.

Then its very hard to actually prove it. If I was doing such a scam (which to be honest I couldnt be arsed doing, as controlling one planet is hard enough) then I would just say it must of been a coincedence.

If theres evidence of me doing it twice I would say "he was big"

If theres ip matching I would say "I play pa at university, youre exceptions arent working so what am I supposed to do, know who not to attack?"

As I say without any sound or substantial evidence I cant see much action being taken.

One would hope that the discrection of the multihunters can read between the lines and not have to follow the corporate bullshit that jolt lay down. Rather they can close some planets that show high levels of cheating.

[aNgRyDuCk]

Originally Posted by Psi_K

The real question, since you have all this knowledge, is what are YOU doing about it?
Throw the evidence towards PA Crew, they know what to do.... ususally.

If I had the knowledge, I wouldn't be asking the question, now would I?

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by pig

If its circular farming which im assuming is

My god, i hope that's not the definition of circular farming, cos in effect everyone who attacks is a farmer. Obviously, Planet D is a bottom planet initing roids, planet C is a tier up, etc etc untill planet A is one of the top players - its how roids flor usually in this game in a pyramid style.

Edit: i can understand "circular farming" for XP, where then Player D attacks player A and you get a whirlpool of increasing XP, but for just roids and ships its pretty hopeless - you might as well just go out an attack anyway.

Also, there were comments (and i obviously dont mean to point fingers as i dont do that sort of thing) about alliances organising attacks on members who are not in their tag, and those non-tagged members attacking other tagged members, so in effect you have two groups who are merely swapping roids but are 'farming' XP - which adds alot to score now, but will continue to add to alot of score in the future. This is something that had me more worried, but now that most alliance members are tagged up it is no longer feasible.

Unless one alliance farms off another, etc.

Originally Posted by angryduck

"multiple planets used by 1 player "

IIRC multiing was illegal anyway.

And yes, the MH team are pretty clued up. Except Squishy .

[pig]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

My god, i hope that's not the definition of circular farming, cos in effect everyone who attacks is a farmer. Obviously, Planet D is a bottom planet initing roids, planet C is a tier up, etc etc untill planet A is one of the top players - its how roids flor usually in this game in a pyramid style..

Wow thanks for that defintion of how pa works. I never really looked at it like that.

Anyway my point was that the farming is multi planets of some form being controlled and being used over and over again. Not just oh look he attacked he so i shall attack thee.

[Dotatrix]

Why there's so much cheat accusing when eXil is around ?

[pig]

Because some quarters of there alliance have had a history of cheating. Although so have most players in this game. I dont honestly think angryduck was pointing the finger at exiltion. More trying to make the community aware of the events that are unfolding in the universe.

[aNgRyDuCk]

Originally Posted by pig

Because some quarters of there alliance have had a history of cheating. Although so have most players in this game. I dont honestly think angryduck was pointing the finger at exiltion. More trying to make the community aware of the events that are unfolding in the universe.

Yes, basically trying to get a good understanding of what the accusations are, if they are really supported by any evidence, and to have a basic understanding of exactly what the proccess was

[aNgRyDuCk]

Originally Posted by Dotatrix

Why there's so much cheat accusing when eXil is around ?

did I point any fingers or accuse anyone in particular........ ?

[mazzelaar]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Edit: i can understand "circular farming" for XP, where then Player D attacks player A and you get a whirlpool of increasing XP, but for just roids and ships its pretty hopeless - you might as well just go out an attack anyway.

When was the last time you went on a full raid and your target guarenteed no defence, no ships that would target you and ships home that were worth stealing? Hell, I wana be in your alliance if you can find targets like that.

[mazzelaar]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

And yes, the MH team are pretty clued up. Except Squishy .

I also think it's fair to say you must be the only person playing PA with any sort of confidence in them any more. I'd desperately love to be proved wrong but their history is more damning than anything people want to say about eXilitions* past.




* Purely for use as a comparison, nothing more.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by mazzelaar

When was the last time you went on a full raid and your target guarenteed no defence, no ships that would target you and ships home that were worth stealing? Hell, I wana be in your alliance if you can find targets like that.

I tend to do lemming runs as retal more than active waving, which seems to be more effective for me :\. But i understand what you are saying.

I also think it's fair to say you must be the only person playing PA with any sort of confidence in them any more. I'd desperately love to be proved wrong but their history is more damning than anything people want to say about eXilitions* past.

Their history is from people who have since departed the MH team (or the PA team altogether) - the MH team this round is more or less a new crew (with the exception of Assassin), and therefore they carry no past baggage. Attributing said baggage to these people is not only misplaced, but unfair. Further, since R13 new tools (courtesy of Phil^) have been available to enable the MH team to probe deeper into planet's history, among other things, which results in a far more accurate rendition of the current environment.

Also, when you idle in #support for as long as i do, and see someone whinging about them being closed ever hour or two, you;d have to say that the clampdown on cheating has been highly effective.

The only areas that need to be considered are; the exception system coming back online (but that is out of the MH's control) and methods to address the VNC problem which most admit has no obvious or easy solution.

If you want to be cynnical, that's fine - i am frequently cynnical about all things PA Team (much to their despair i might add ). But if you just want to fire another broadside at events and people who are long gone, then - whilst that is also up to you - i dont think its really fair on the current team.

[NitinA]

Alliance based circular farming is easily spotted from looking at the history of a planet within an alliance tag. I've encouraged the MH team to do a sweep scan (using Phil's tools) of all alliance members, and those who have been in a tag, then kicked. This takes many hours to do, yes (Phil did it in r13, and someone must have in round 14), but I do think it's quite effective. In any case, I do agree with Sovey that roidswap in PA is pyramidial in essence--but a circular pyramid scheme would be rather easy to detect given the current MH tools.

-NitinA

[alch]

A known player (I wont say his name on forum as i dont want to name and shame before he get closed) attacks Planet B and 5 ticks later Planet B defends him against attackers and land on him, what do you think about this?

eh, im not pointing any finger yet.

[Varangian]

There is always a way to cheat.
The circular farming thing only really works with collusion among the targets or single player ownership.
I could be done- but it's pathetic on a number of levels.
1: In real life we often have to cheat to survive. taxes, resumes, we have to do whatever it takes to get over.
But here theres no money at stake. Fleet capture doesnt get your goods put on the sidewalk. Why bother cheating.?
2. Its almost as much work cheating as it is actually earning score and roids . Er..that's a lot of playing with yourselves, circular farmers!

[alch]

By the way, this known players has been reported 2 days ago, i united him today, he is still open, dont you think its a little bit too much?

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by alch

what do you think about this?

Report them using the in-game Support link (above the Ship stats); with their co-ords and any "evidence" you have with it.

By the way, this known players has been reported 2 days ago, i united him today, he is still open, dont you think its a little bit too much?

Report them again with any and all new "evidence" you have if you still think it isnt legit.

tbh, it *may* have been meant as an attacking fleet but accidentally sent as def (it does happen), though obviously as i am not a MH nor am i aware of the case nor its background, i cant say with any authority why they havent been close nor why they remain open, and speculating is far from helpful. :\

[Squishy]

Unfortunatly we need firm evidence that someone is cheating before we close them. If we didnt then their would be no cheaters left in the game and thats the honest truth. But their would be a lot of innocent people who got closed in the process

We cant just go closing people right left and center we need good solid proof before we can close them and keep them closed. We investagate all claims against planets thoughaly and then make judgements bassed on that.

Its all a matter of comprimise the very people on here who are complaining about the MH team not doing enough ect would be the very same people who came on IRC shouting that one of their members have been closed and their '100% sure' that person isnt cheating. If you want a no holes barred MH team who will close anyone they suspect of cheating you already have one but we cannot do that for the good of the game as a whole as we may close innocent people and that can never be allowed to happen. (please people who claim their innocents about past closures dont post here)

The MH team will be investagating all these claims and the ones made to us privatly. Just as we would be investagating the alliances anyway. We will look into them very thoughaly but if their isnt enough evindence we will not close or keep people closed. In the mean time feel free to keep reporting incidents that you feel should be investegated and pass on as much info as possible.

We will continue to do our best in serving the community and to be honest thats all we can really do.

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by mazzelaar

I also think it's fair to say you must be the only person playing PA with any sort of confidence in them any more. I'd desperately love to be proved wrong but their history is more damning than anything people want to say about eXilitions* past.

The multihunter has been much more effective the last few rounds than they have ever been. As long as you back up your accusations with enough proofs, then they surely get the suspected planet closed.

[-=Zyth=-]

Originally Posted by Nadar

The multihunter has been much more effective the last few rounds than they have ever been. As long as you back up your accusations with enough proofs, then they surely get the suspected planet closed.

And reopened after a great collective whine.

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by alch

A known player (I wont say his name on forum as i dont want to name and shame before he get closed) attacks Planet B and 5 ticks later Planet B defends him against attackers and land on him, what do you think about this?

eh, im not pointing any finger yet.

Anyone with a brain would call it cheating and close him on sight. I expect the hunters to, if they look into this at all, to believe the excuse that will obviously come that the cords was pressed in by mistake and that it was some "once in a lifetime" fluke that struck their poor souls.

I think the only way you will get a respond is to poke a hunter the 12 hours it takes for them to respond to a pm.

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by -=Zyth=-

And reopened after a great collective whine.

MH's isn't as stupid as you might believe. Sure they get reopened IF it proves to have been a faulty decision or in some cases: a misunderstanding leading to a planet getting closed.

[-=Zyth=-]

I didn't say they were stupid, there is an excuse for just about anything and when several hundred player threaten to up sticks for pastures new or indeed legal action, other considerations come into play. Don't they?

[Nadar]

I'd like to see an example of where several hundred players rioted against a closure.

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by Nadar

I'd like to see an example of where several hundred players rioted against a closure.

You should see the fang priv chan in pax!

[alch]

i know multihunters are doing they jobs right and some of them are answering within the minutes, i think its not up to PATEAM, but i think this is jolt dictating the PATEAM to leave half-cheater* unclosed because of the fear that 20-30% of the memberbase would be closed and that would leave the game with a low member and unattractive. I have only one word to this speculation, continue to treat low cheat with such a loose hand, and you will loose the other 80% of the memberbase who is trying to play according the rules.
That would leave you with even a more smaller memberbase.


* i mean by half-cheaters the one that cheat on low scale. its like jolt is giving us the opportunity to cheat like in earlier round, making it legit and close only big cheaters such as BBW, but even in this case they are very very sensible because of the fact that players can sue them back. I wonder why we do have an EULA.

[alch]

Originally Posted by Treveler

You should see the fang priv chan in pax!

luckily FAnG doesnt exist and we still cannot prove it, but i assume we had few scum within our ranks in the past rounds, which is one of the reason we disbanded this alliance.

for myself i have learnt since we have created angels, that there is no such things innocent people, if someone happen to be closed by MH, it has to be because he cheated in some way or was dumb to interefer with his account in a way to make it looks like he cheated, in these 2 ways, he should be closed just for either being a cheater or either being dumb and not cautious.

anyway, as sad it might be, mass riot happened in the past and will happen as long as you close a certain amount of planets within a group. The HC get totally blind and come to whine and pressure and make statement like "this is the last round we play as an alliance, you wont see our 100 players next round" of course hald of theses statements are bullshit and no one will never do this step of leaving the community. Even the one who left ,came back few rounds later begging to play again.

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by Treveler

You should see the fang priv chan in pax!

I was in the FAnG priv chan in pax!

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by alch

i know multihunters are doing they jobs right and some of them are answering within the minutes, i think its not up to PATEAM, but i think this is jolt dictating the PATEAM to leave half-cheater* unclosed because of the fear that 20-30% of the memberbase would be closed and that would leave the game with a low member and unattractive. I have only one word to this speculation, continue to treat low cheat with such a loose hand, and you will loose the other 80% of the memberbase who is trying to play according the rules.
That would leave you with even a more smaller memberbase.


* i mean by half-cheaters the one that cheat on low scale. its like jolt is giving us the opportunity to cheat like in earlier round, making it legit and close only big cheaters such as BBW, but even in this case they are very very sensible because of the fact that players can sue them back. I wonder why we do have an EULA.

Cheaters generate money and money is what this game is all about for Jolt. I think that is (as you suggest) the main reason the only proof they accept is three written and signed admissions from the cheaters sent to Jolt with express mail. Sad but true.

luckily FAnG doesnt exist and we still cannot prove it, but i assume we had few scum within our ranks in the past rounds, which is one of the reason we disbanded this alliance.

for myself i have learnt since we have created angels, that there is no such things innocent people, if someone happen to be closed by MH, it has to be because he cheated in some way or was dumb to interefer with his account in a way to make it looks like he cheated, in these 2 ways, he should be closed just for either being a cheater or either being dumb and not cautious.

anyway, as sad it might be, mass riot happened in the past and will happen as long as you close a certain amount of planets within a group. The HC get totally blind and come to whine and pressure and make statement like "this is the last round we play as an alliance, you wont see our 100 players next round" of course hald of theses statements are bullshit and no one will never do this step of leaving the community. Even the one who left ,came back few rounds later begging to play again.

That incident definitely got a bit out of hand yes but i believe many ppl leared a lot from it so it wasnt all bad

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by alch

its like jolt is giving us the opportunity to cheat like in earlier round, making it legit and close only big cheaters such as BBW.

Actually, BBW got closed and then Jolt ordered him reopened again against the will of the MH's. And then he got closed for the final time.

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by Nadar

I was in the FAnG priv chan in pax!

I know and that’s why I was a bit surprised you wrote what you did. If not a riot it was at least pretty damn close. But didnt you return to NoS before the end or something?

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by Treveler

I know and that’s why I was a bit surprised you wrote what you did. If not a riot it was at least pretty damn close. But didnt you return to NoS before the end or something?

What incident are you refering to? When someone logged into WebAngel's account and kicked everyone from ingame alliance? I left around that time yes.

[Wandows]

Originally Posted by Nadar

The multihunter has been much more effective the last few rounds than they have ever been. As long as you back up your accusations with enough proofs, then they surely get the suspected planet closed.

Tbh, they can be as effective as they like, but as long as we don't hear anything about what they do we won't know that. I personally am in favour to name and shame all cheaters, that way we atleast know whats going on from the MH camp and can actually see they doing something. Atm its just by 'coincedence' you find out a certain planet has been deleted, i rather have it out in the open (once there are no options left for the player in questions to avoid deletion).

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by Wandows

Tbh, they can be as effective as they like, but as long as we don't hear anything about what they do we won't know that. I personally am in favour to name and shame all cheaters, that way we atleast know whats going on from the MH camp and can actually see they doing something. Atm its just by 'coincedence' you find out a certain planet has been deleted, i rather have it out in the open (once there are no options left for the player in questions to avoid deletion).

Why would they tell us how they do their work? Then the cheaters could try work against them and possibly avoid it. I'm in favour of name and shame aswell.

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by Nadar

What incident are you refering to? When someone logged into WebAngel's account and kicked everyone from ingame alliance? I left around that time yes.

It was the incident that caused WA to paste his login detail in a public chan. Its no reason to rip this up in again tho so lets just forget it!

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by Treveler

It was the incident that caused WA to paste his login detail in a public chan. Its no reason to rip this up in again tho so lets just forget it!

It wasn't exactly a big riot against the game as I can remember it And I thought we were talking about if the MH's were doing a good job or not? (Which they clearly do)

[-=Zyth=-]

Originally Posted by Wandows

Tbh, they can be as effective as they like, but as long as we don't hear anything about what they do we won't know that. I personally am in favour to name and shame all cheaters, that way we atleast know whats going on from the MH camp and can actually see they doing something. Atm its just by 'coincedence' you find out a certain planet has been deleted, i rather have it out in the open (once there are no options left for the player in questions to avoid deletion).

Perhaps it would be good for the sometimes opaque nature and cloak and dagger methodology for MH guys to do a simple daily report for the rest of us for example.

Yesterday MH investigated X reports of cheating
As a result Y number of planets were closed for the following reasons:
Z planets were found to have commited farming offences etc...

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by Nadar

It wasn't exactly a big riot against the game as I can remember it And I thought we were talking about if the MH's were doing a good job or not? (Which they clearly do)

It was "a riot" against the creators and hunters over several top fang closures. Several accusations were made and it was also the main reason why Fang HC in the heat of the moment decided to disband fang as I understood it.

[CrazyConrad]

Originally Posted by Wandows

Tbh, they can be as effective as they like, but as long as we don't hear anything about what they do we won't know that. I personally am in favour to name and shame all cheaters, that way we atleast know whats going on from the MH camp and can actually see they doing something. Atm its just by 'coincedence' you find out a certain planet has been deleted, i rather have it out in the open (once there are no options left for the player in questions to avoid deletion).

If ppl are so stupid to cheat they might as well be known for the community. Name and shame all the way, period!!

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Treveler

Anyone with a brain would call it cheating and close him on sight. I expect the hunters to, if they look into this at all, to believe the excuse that will obviously come that the cords was pressed in by mistake and that it was some "once in a lifetime" fluke that struck their poor souls.

It is my opinion that "anyone with a brain" would hesitate to pass judgement before they knew all the facts regarding the situation. How can you, an individual without access to the detailed and extensive MH tools, determine guilt or otherwise merely from second or third hand reports posted on a forum? I find it incredulous that someone would doubt the decision of a Multihunter (or anyone for that instance) on such scant information.

I think the only way you will get a respond is to poke a hunter the 12 hours it takes for them to respond to a pm.

Coverage is pretty good. I know, as i am active at the times when they are not - and there is only a fairly small window of time when all the Multihunters are asleep (it varies between 3 and 6 hours a day). Also, all MH will answer their PMs as soon as htey get back; but it is better to lodge a Support requst via the Support link (above the Ship Stats) as all MH see that (and check it freqently).

[Kargool]

I agree.. Name the cheaters.

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by Treveler

It was "a riot" against the creators and hunters over several top fang closures. Several accusations were made and it was also the main reason why Fang HC in the heat of the moment decided to disband fang as I understood it.

But there was a reason for the closure wasn't it? "The person we both know who are" had several planets under his management, didn't he?

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by Treveler

It was the incident that caused WA to paste his login detail in a public chan. Its no reason to rip this up in again tho so lets just forget it!

There were alot of reasons why Webby did what he did, but I think the main reason was that he was generally fed up with all the shit going on (both internal as external stuff) ... adding the pressure Ely/Eclipse/ToT put on us (which is normal, that's their job as the enemy).
I think it were a bunch of little things added together that drove him to what he did

Feel free to pm me if you want more details about this.

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by Treveler

It was "a riot" against the creators and hunters over several top fang closures. Several accusations were made and it was also the main reason why Fang HC in the heat of the moment decided to disband fang as I understood it.

Hehe, many pple still see as if it was MY call and mine alone just cause I was the one bringing it to them .... I can still feel the love some have for that ...

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

It is my opinion that "anyone with a brain" would hesitate to pass judgement before they knew all the facts regarding the situation. How can you, an individual without access to the detailed and extensive MH tools, determine guilt or otherwise merely from second or third hand reports posted on a forum? I find it incredulous that someone would doubt the decision of a Multihunter (or anyone for that instance) on such scant information.

So you accepted that brilliant excuse huh?

Coverage is pretty good. I know, as i am active at the times when they are not - and there is only a fairly small window of time when all the Multihunters are asleep (it varies between 3 and 6 hours a day). Also, all MH will answer their PMs as soon as htey get back; but it is better to lodge a Support requst via the Support link (above the Ship Stats) as all MH see that (and check it freqently).

Maybe I`ve been a bit unlucky when trying to get in contact with the team.

Another issue I want to adress while I have your attention. Where is it stated how to report cheaters? It should be written with big fat neon-pink letters on MOTD to use the support link with all aviable info and where to contact hunters on irc etc. If you see some suspicious behaviour for the first time you will probably have no clue what to do about it.

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by Nadar

But there was a reason for the closure wasn't it? "The person we both know who are" had several planets under his management, didn't he?

You're mixing up 2 rounds. R10 it was about the closure of pple like Zerocore etc (LDK pple) ... I think you're refering to Irvine a round later (if I'm not mistaken).

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by Kjeldoran

You're mixing up 2 rounds.

Yeah, probably

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Treveler

So you accepted that brilliant excuse huh?

I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the people who have access to significantly more information in which to reach an informed decision over someone who is forming an opinion on an issue that they know next to bugger all about.

Plus, as Heartless would be able to tell you, Squishy is a bit of a nazi when it comes to cheaters, and i seriously doubt that the decision to re-open a planet was taken without serious consideration of all the facts plus a very suspicious eye.

And, i know that the planet(s) involved are on a constant watch list with Squish and Assassin et al lurking waiting to pounce at the next trip up - something that you can report should you have that information.

Another issue I want to adress while I have your attention. Where is it stated how to report cheaters? It should be written with big fat neon-pink letters on MOTD to use the support link with all aviable info and where to contact hunters on irc etc. If you see some suspicious behaviour for the first time you will probably have no clue what to do about it.

This can be looked in to.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by mazzelaar

When was the last time you went on a full raid and your target guarenteed no defence, no ships that would target you and ships home that were worth stealing? Hell, I wana be in your alliance if you can find targets like that.

Oh, and i forgot to mention; taking roids off your enemies counts as double (but you know that anyway)...