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Unread 5 Jan 2006, 20:29   #51
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

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Originally Posted by Gate
What are large small ships? :/
they're a contradiction

large steal ships are also bad, tho but have the virtue of being expensive , and further along the ships tech tree so they wont be flying about en-mass at the start, plus their eta rules out quick attacks
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Unread 5 Jan 2006, 21:34   #52
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

i know heartless... i didn't mean that zik should get stronger, zik is fine atm, just wonder why every race has his weakness except cath.

i always play with the idea that any 1 planet can roid be able to roid another with the same value, but with the latest stats that just doesn't always apply to cath as they are sooo strong defencewise.

and their weakness is NOT any class which isn't targetted by their roiding classes. That's just completely untrue.
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Unread 5 Jan 2006, 21:49   #53
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

Do they really need much more in the way of guns?
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Unread 5 Jan 2006, 23:21   #54
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster
And, to be honest, it's better if every race can't roid itself, and can roid 1 race with 2 fleets, and the remaining 2 races with one fleet each (different fleet for either race). That way, no matter what stats are like, you can still roid someone.
I'm sure you have thought of that but just making sure: if races have a tough time to roid their own race then Xan get a greater advantage in their roid distribution. They could roid the 3 other races and balance their roids to fit their needs, and other races wouldn't be able to do that.
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Unread 5 Jan 2006, 23:23   #55
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

tbh most people don't think like that, and even Xan will more easily roid some races than others and get unequal roids too.
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 07:59   #56
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

How about changing the Syren to a Battleship,...
think about it,.. it'd give Terrans a strong Poding fleet agasint each race, without much being changed in the stats,.. oh and keep the init the same.
Xans have their weakness that we wanted.
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 09:21   #57
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

what about cath then ?
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 11:32   #58
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

what about cath?
with no init change, they can handle the widowmakers, and then its all about how many BW they have in their fleet, enough and it holds them at bay a bit, but then they dont have them out attacking,..
Might also add drop the wyrvern init to 6, to make it the same as the other, and then they have a chance agasint ziks to, and can then deffend agasint a zik frig attack, which terrans are practically a farm for. Since ziks gain everyone elses ships, i dont see how they should have a strong podding fleet against other races early on. As they gain other ships, then they can design a fleet agasint anyone, but i think since Ziks are meant to be the more skillfull one to take, then this should be somthing worked at, not given from the start.
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 12:00   #59
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

:P and then Terran will rule the world!
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 12:26   #60
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

not reeally, there are loads of Anti BS ships out there, and all can make it in the same if not quicker time then it has been sent on to attack. Unlike cath co for example, so deffence for it can still be easily gotten from your alliance, unlike cath co,....
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 12:56   #61
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

still think upping the armour on the vsh and dropping the init by one would cover the xan fleet. that way the vsh would stand a much better chance against tzen due to suffering less losses but also leaves them vunerable to sentinels which again can be counter by tzen def.

everyone wins
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 13:52   #62
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

Stats changed: Marauder damage 135-> 125; Vsharrk init 5 -> 4
(copied from MOTD )
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 14:33   #63
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

Ive seen worse :P
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 15:19   #64
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

Everyone is going zik though

oh, btw changed the wrong thing.
Marauder damage 95 -> 85. Changed the wrong column

Terran 24%, Cath 18%, Xan 17%, Zik 39%

...
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 15:24   #65
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Everyone is going zik though
Fine by me, I don't play speedgames.

Well, not seriously at least. I'm kind of free this weekend so I might have a mess around
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 16:06   #66
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

so how would you say these changes effect the state of play?
xans now wont hit each other, because of the vsk - Tzen being the same init, to costly for someone, unless they want to loose alot.
Marauder doing less damge, means ziks will steal slightly less frigs, lowering their own frigs fleet slightly.
that about cover it??
Cath still looking very strong, and xans will hit other races instead of themselves,.. ziks less powerfull,... that cover it? or am i missing somthing?
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 18:20   #67
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko
so how would you say these changes effect the state of play?
xans now wont hit each other, because of the vsk - Tzen being the same init, to costly for someone, unless they want to loose alot.
Marauder doing less damge, means ziks will steal slightly less frigs, lowering their own frigs fleet slightly.
that about cover it??
Cath still looking very strong, and xans will hit other races instead of themselves,.. ziks less powerfull,... that cover it? or am i missing somthing?

I would say that you covered most things there except what I said earlier in the thread:
Changing tzen or vsh init makes xan unroidable by any fleet of less than about twice the size of the xans. In a speedgame this makes them hugely powerful as teamups are rare and they would rely far less on ally defence. The fact that there are so many ziks also helps xans as no there is no need to spend a lot on tzens they can focus on building ghosts and roiding ziks all round. The only thing that could stop this happening would be ziks stealing wyverns or a lot of vsh .
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 18:37   #68
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

That is indeed true. It doesnt weaken xans that much tbh. Ofcourse theyre wekeaned offensively, but defensively they are much strenghtned
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 18:37   #69
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

He he, and I bet lotsa of people are gonna go Zik the free round as well... isnt this a "sign" we must do something about it, I dont mind if 40% of the universe is Cath or Ter, we can work around those races relatively safely (in terms of fleet loss)... I do care if 40% of the universe is Zik or Xan; cuz they would simply pwn Cats and Ters (both in terms of ship loss and overall ranking).
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 18:43   #70
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

Bet itll be like last speedgame where the winner was a terran with around 200 ships :\
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Unread 6 Jan 2006, 22:02   #71
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

Too bad I have to work sundaymorning, I'd love to pwn with my Xan Fi fleet
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 02:16   #72
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

Ok, so I did play a bit of teh speedgame

And the stats changes appear to have had some impact. As I go to bed (have to be up tomorrow morning ), the top 10 consists of 6 xands, 2 ziks, a cat and a terran.

Of note is the fact that all of the none-xands have the support of top 5 galaxies (3 are in the top 2 galaxies, one in the fourth ranked galaxy), whilst the xands are generally in smaller gals, and one isn't even in a top 10 galaxy...

So I think that the simple vsharrak initiative change has had a huge effect!
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 03:24   #73
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

Xan > speedgame
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 12:16   #74
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

ZIks aint done to badly,.. as usuall
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 13:38   #75
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

Quote:
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ZIks aint done to badly,.. as usuall
Ziks always have a huge advantage in speedgame as people are less likely to be able to run their fleet.

I still think xands were pretty overpowered. For the time I was actually playing, the only times I got roided, it was by XP whorers or a huge xan-cath FI/CO combos (Where the cath sacrificed a lot of value, I'm pretty sure he lost more value than he gained in XP in fact). I found it quite easy, despite being in a pretty bad galaxy ('cept for dune and the odd helping hand <3 ), simply because of my race choice :/
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 14:25   #76
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

will corsair has same init as vsh for al round? or will xan own zik badly as the Fr will target both anti Fr classes of zik shooting before them?
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 14:32   #77
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

Quote:
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will corsair has same init as vsh for al round? or will xan own zik badly as the Fr will target both anti Fr classes of zik shooting before them?
Xan owned Zik badly
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 15:02   #78
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

until zik stole xan ships,...

Terran DE i have to admit, seemed to do alright, but in a real round, i expect more deffence to be around and gathered,...
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 16:29   #79
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

Indeed i found last night that we had very few anti-de in gal and all DE fleets got through pretty much. Good thing we didnt get too many and ppl didnt catch on.

Fleetcatches on ziks were as usual uber effective, we stole at least 3.5mil value between the 3 of us in my gal (<3 seal + mcfun).

Xans went for fi fleets instead of frig, which led to there being less anti-fr about, meaning zik fr was more effective too as caths had more beetles which otherwise would have been spent on vipers. All around though i think Xan would have been the best race to play in a real round with those stats.

Ways to change that would be boost beetle damage, reduce vshar damage a bit and make harpies higher damage.

Oh and congrats to McFun for the win (in normal time ). DLR ftw
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 21:42   #80
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

btw could we please have a low eta stealer?
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 22:17   #81
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

Quote:
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Xans went for fi fleets instead of frig, which led to there being less anti-fr about, meaning zik fr was more effective too as caths had more beetles which otherwise would have been spent on vipers. All around though i think Xan would have been the best race to play in a real round with those stats.
FI fleets=vsharraks=just as much anti FR available :/
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 22:18   #82
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

Not what i saw tbh Gate, more Sents/pulsars were about than vshar on most targets.
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 22:21   #83
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

I must have been one of the only idiots to build vsh then (myself, paddy and the other top 10's in 5:5, though they generally had a higher proportion of sentinels), I particularly enjoyed the 1am attacks on Paisley's ingal ziks. Though even with jsut 6k pulsars I could generally hit the terrans who'd neglected to build pegs as well!
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Unread 8 Jan 2006, 23:00   #84
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

i saw ziks with more vsh. nearly every xan fleet i saw was 70% sents
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Unread 9 Jan 2006, 11:58   #85
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

well, playing the speeder for about 12 hours as a xand before going to bed, and having the biggest fleet in the game(for once), there was noone i couldnt attack, the vshar was immense it was unreal, vshar+arrow owned just about anything. Me and basher would team up and when the planets got defence the beetles and cutters just got smashed to the ground.

Only possible way of taking a xanda out was to totally outnumber him with a cath escourt, which is what 5:5 did to me constantly, they had 2 xanda's and 1 cath attack me, who built there fleet purely to just attack me, beetles+spider+sent+arrow.

Saying this i did find myself attacking xans solo, purely because i had about 25k more sentinels than most xanda's and could easily wipe there whole fleet out if they decided to stay home, so it was a pretty safe bet that they would run. But i have to agree with gate that the change did make xan's uber powerful.

Maybe a counterbalance could be introduced, up the beetle power, lower the viper power, making xans actually consider a fr fleet?
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Unread 9 Jan 2006, 16:30   #86
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alki
Only possible way of taking a xanda out was to totally outnumber him with a cath escourt, which is what 5:5 did to me constantly, they had 2 xanda's and 1 cath attack me, who built there fleet purely to just attack me, beetles+spider+sent+arrow.
Wasn't just you, same happened to paddy and myself (similar sized xands) as well

Quote:
Saying this i did find myself attacking xans solo, purely because i had about 25k more sentinels than most xanda's and could easily wipe there whole fleet out if they decided to stay home, so it was a pretty safe bet that they would run.
I always stayed at home if I caused more damage to the attacker. When 5:5 hit me, I just kept lancers at home (unfortunately I got forced to spend just before they launched, I wanted to build 3k lancers to wipe out the cath ), when xands hit me I spammed sentinels. I caused more damage than they caused to me and in most cases, they lost more value than they gained in XP, or at least just as much.

So in future, they didn't hitme
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Unread 9 Jan 2006, 18:20   #87
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

heh

I just went dists and used simple de fleets. Got me mass XP and when ticks stopped i was #1 with 10.2mill score in XP :S
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Unread 10 Jan 2006, 19:25   #88
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Re: Speedgame etc stat changes

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Originally Posted by ReligFree
Oh and congrats to McFun for the win (in normal time ). DLR ftw
I didn't know Dauphin (5:5:11) used the nick McFun

We had the 1. planet for 5 ticks, and one of those ticks were 12:00 gametime. Yes, normal time. I know you guys hate us for it, but we did win

If this had been an ordenary round Xan would have rocked. Actually, Xan DID rock. And the Xan/Cath combo were more deadly then ever with the tzens being useless (didn't understand why the stats on the vsh didn't get lowered when the init went from 5->4). The biggest weakness is of course the big urge to kill every other Xan in the game, and fleetcatching for kill was a lot of fun, but also very expensive. Gave us the win though
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