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View Poll Results: Which Cathaar freezing method would you prefer? (if you had the choice)
I liked it when the damage field showed the 'strength' of an EMP ship (i.e. 20 dmg freezes 20 armr) 26 41.94%
I like the way guns & empres work now (i.e. Beetles have 6 guns & Phantoms have an empres of 3) 17 27.42%
I don't mind either way (or) it doesn't affect me. 19 30.65%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 16:03   #1
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Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

I was wondering, not that this is an official poll or anything, but do people like the reintroduction of GUNS and EMP resistance or did they prefer it when the 'damage' values dictated how much an EMP ship would 'freeze' ?

Personally I thought it was a little simpler before guns/empres were reintroduced, and I don't see why they were reintroduced in the first place. If anyone has the answer to this I'd be curious to know why also

Thoughts?
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 16:07   #2
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

I agree i did think that damage was a little easier then guns, but to be fair the calculator does it for me anyway
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 16:22   #3
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

both systems are quite simple. so its either way for me.

I dont see an advantage to either of them, so in my personal oppinion, there is no difference
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 16:36   #4
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

agreed, both systems are easy for the calc, but arguably the damage system is simpler to work out in your head (i.e. you can add up the armour totals and see if you have enough damage). i think for that reason alone the old system was simpler, and as there's not much difference for a calc user perhaps we could go back to 'normal/simpler' ways of doing it?

in my opinion, if guns are being used we may as well give certain Norm ships more guns, or add in the old 'agility' (etc) fields or something because it seems a little weird to say that each of these ships only has one gun (in my opinion), and that a BS is supposedly as adept to avoiding a damage-shot as a FI? (whereas with EMP we're currently admitting it takes more 'emp' to freeze 'larger' ships shown via higher empres)
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 17:25   #5
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

yes, i guess straight up numbers are easier to work out in your head then percentiles. ttytt, i have nfi why would the switch to EMP dmg happened in the first place, and i have nfi why did they switch it back... This entire process reminds me of a poking a dead horse with a stick tho... there is no technical difference. Find one way and keep it, imo.

If u ask me, go ahead and make it normal dmg w/1 gun. It does make it easier on the headaches i get trying to calculate numbers :/ (counting hurts :`()
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 18:04   #6
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

It does make a difference.. # guns and empres adds another level of diversity to the game.
Take the Baliff for example, with his 600 armor, a real powerhouse, but if u look at his empres, only 50%. So that means the tarantula eats 2 of them alive for breakfast. Now if u'd remove the multiple guns on the emp ships, and just give them a certain amount of damage to be dealt too, the tarantula would have a much harder time stunning it as it has now.

PS: I'm aware of the fact that the one designing those stats is waayy of though with an emp res of 50 for the baliff, but he's a great example atm to support my point. ^^
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 18:54   #7
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

guns & emp res tyvm! :-)

Why.. read Satyr's post above mine. It adds more dept to the statistics allowing (for example) heavily armoured ships to be weak vs Cathaar EMP without making EMP extremely strong versus lower armoured ships. In the end it should be easier to produce a balanced set of stats with guns and emp resistance than with the pure damage setting. As with damage only there is a very thin line between playable Cathaar stats and a really crap Cathaar stats.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 20:39   #8
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyr
It does make a difference.. # guns and empres adds another level of diversity to the game.
Take the Baliff for example, with his 600 armor, a real powerhouse, but if u look at his empres, only 50%. So that means the tarantula eats 2 of them alive for breakfast. Now if u'd remove the multiple guns on the emp ships, and just give them a certain amount of damage to be dealt too, the tarantula would have a much harder time stunning it as it has now.

PS: I'm aware of the fact that the one designing those stats is waayy of though with an emp res of 50 for the baliff, but he's a great example atm to support my point. ^^

yes, but stats would have to be reworked. Tara would have its damage significcantly increased (and baliff.s E/R SHULD be increased, tbfh to about 80 so tara cannot stun 1, but about 5 taras could stun about 4 baliffs (consider that 3 taras about equal in res to about 1 baliff)

this stat set takes into consideration E/R and number of guns.

If it would be EMP dmg i am sure it would get reworked to suit. (hey, i mean, ppl who do stats have SOME idea on how to do this... i sure hope they do, anyways)

I do somewhat agree with Wandows that guns and E/R allows for easier stat balancing for cath. Considering the edge between cath sucking and being awesome is practically undetectable... << Edit: i should finish reading people's posts... forgot to read last sentance of Wandow's post but ye, i agree with him now
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 21:00   #9
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

There's an easy solution that keeps the benefits of the EMP resistance but gets rid of the guns.


A Cathaar ship does X damage, but this damage is reduced by the EMP resistance before hitting the armour. The lowered damage then affects the armour in the same way as a normal ship would.


e.g. 10 Scarabs do 96 damage each, targetting 10 Ironclads, which each have 130 armour and 67% EMP resistance.

The scarabs do 960 damage total, which is reduced by 67% to 316 damage. The ironclads have 1300 armour total, which is reduced to 984 by being shot by the scarabs. 2 ironclads are lost.


Obviously you'd need to work out the damage dealt by the EMP weapons and what to make the EMP resistance of each ship (I suggest that you give ships lower EMP resistances overall and keep Cathaar EMP damages at a reasonable level, no-one wants to see a ship dealing 1000 damage )
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Unread 19 Jan 2007, 09:43   #10
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

i like that idea furball - you're on a roll
At the moment it seems like it's pretty evenly split between how it is and not particularly caring, but there's double the votes on having damage reintroduced. furball's suggestion might be worth looking into further.

Alternatively, the empres could be 'extra armour' added when being emp'd?
in the example above, an ironclad's normal armour of 120 is increased by 67pts rather than 67%? (would have to be worked out and a bit lower etc)

ALTERNATIVELY empres could be the 'armour' than needs to be frozen to stun the ship via emp damage -- very simple?
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Unread 19 Jan 2007, 21:03   #11
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

Nah, it's more elegant to have EMP resistance as a percentage modifier of the damage dealt by Cathaar ships. Having multiple armour fields would get a little annoying after a while.
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Unread 20 Jan 2007, 00:17   #12
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satyr
PS: I'm aware of the fact that the one designing those stats is waayy of though with an emp res of 50 for the baliff, but he's a great example atm to support my point. ^^
This was the exact reason why I originally spoke a lot to appocomaster in order to reintroduce percentage EMP resistances and gun scores to cathaar ships. Cathaars were found as a 100% win or loose race, that either is superior to any given race, or alternatively inferior to any race (round 17 and 13 make for good benchmarks here). The EMP resistances allow you to forgo the armor aspect of the ships, and allow cathaars to be specifically able against other things and unable against ones. I hoped it would bring an ability to balance cathaar more up to par with other races, although, disappoitingly, it has so far failed.

Whether this is the blame of EMP fundamental weakenss or inability of the statistics makers of recent goes beyond my ability to argue, but I am slowly beginning to lean more and more towards EMP as a fundamental weakness. It would still require a spice up or something to bring it along without making it seriously overpowered. The thing I have usually supported is handing EMP two zero loss kill ships, preferably not in their primary attack fleets, against the two majority pod classes (the current statistics system has so far caused two pod classes to appear twice - which changed now with the introduction of the fifth race) in order to hand them some protection against lots of fleets, with the one primary attack fleet granting more. Which would give some room in against the issue EMP suffers from most, which is the fundamental problematics mentioned.

Of course, the simple damage caused makes cathaars simplier and easier to add up in combats, and it removes the (very insignificant, really) random factor which comes along the guns and EMP resistance ratings. It just makes cathaar, in my opinion, even harder or nigh impossible to balance in a way where it would not be either a winner race or a definate looser or support race. The question should rather be, in my opinion, should cathaar remain at all, or should it be abolished in terms of game balance. Recently, I have learned something towards the direction of the game balance being less and less significant, and the roles of a rounds of race superiorities or inferiorities being just a part of the game flow. Perhaps more effort should be put into overall game design and attracting new players rather than ensuring the races are on some level of balance. It really probably is not the main concern.
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Unread 20 Jan 2007, 00:58   #13
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä
The question should rather be, in my opinion, should cathaar remain at all, or should it be abolished in terms of game balance.
Cathaar should be abolished. The race simply doesn't work - it's essentially a bad race. That's not to say that EMP is bad, just that an EMP race doesn't work.

EMP ships have always worked best in combination with normal ships - without them the EMP ships need to overkill to a considerable degree in order to cope with defence. However, it's not possible to give Cathaar these powerful normal ships to work in conjunction with their EMP ships since that'd make them too powerful.

It therefore makes sense to give each of the other races (except for Terran, if you want to keep things simple for them?) a couple of EMP ships, and then get rid of the EMP race.
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 10:44   #14
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

Oh well, looks like there wasn't enough support to warrant my asking to remove or change the way EMPRES and GUNS work, which is a shame in my opinion:

The way things are currently, that there is a 67% chance of stunning a ship for example, I don't like it.... I don't know EXACTLY how the calc works with 'chances' and 'percentages', but I don't like that I can't just take a glance and understand what it means, whereas you can when looking at damage and armour ratings.

Maybe next time eh?

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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 13:20   #15
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
The way things are currently, that there is a 67% chance of stunning a ship for example, I don't like it.... I don't know EXACTLY how the calc works with 'chances' and 'percentages', but I don't like that I can't just take a glance and understand what it means, whereas you can when looking at damage and armour ratings.
- tux
As a matter of fact.. its a lot easier then calcing the dmg/armr things :/ an empres of 67% just means u need 3 guns to stun the bitch.. nothing more, nothing less.. :|
PS: n/o but imho u need at least to be able to see or "calc" simple things like that to ever be able to design some proper and balanced stats tux :/
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 14:06   #16
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

n/o but empres is stated as:

For EMP ships formula is :
frozen ships = number of guns * (1-emp resistance)
where emp resistance = [(e/r) / 100]


If a ship has 67 empres
The calculation in your head is as follows:
100-67=33
or 1-(67/100)
it means each gun freezes 33% of a ship

Why the hell do we need to know the empres is 67?
All we really want to know is that each gun stuns 33% of the ship - from that any idiot can work out u need 3 guns to freeze it - right?

This is why empres pisses me off - the 'empres' should be shown as 33 (as in, 33% of the ship is frozen by a gun) or even 3 (as in it takes 3 shots to stun this ship).

to be frank, the number 67 is misleading in the context of battle because it involves multiple complex calculations (imagine a fleet of 4 different same-class ships) to figure out wtf is gunna happen.

n/o Satyr, but I know stats.

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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 11:43   #17
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

A seperate value for EMP Resistance (and presumably, Steal resistance) rather than simply armour is an improvement that the stats have needed for rounds now - since PAX, really. That factor is fantastic.

What gets me, is that now there are effectively two types of calculation - one "combat" calculation and one "emp" type calculation; why the hell not just use the "combat" calculation except sub in the "EMP Armour" field value for the calculation, rather than changing the whole formula completely?

Thus: i like the "old" (being new) way its done, option A. However, with the previso that the damage is being applied to a seperate EMP armour field.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 12:37   #18
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
A seperate value for EMP Resistance (and presumably, Steal resistance) rather than simply armour is an improvement that the stats have needed for rounds now - since PAX, really. That factor is fantastic.

What gets me, is that now there are effectively two types of calculation - one "combat" calculation and one "emp" type calculation; why the hell not just use the "combat" calculation except sub in the "EMP Armour" field value for the calculation, rather than changing the whole formula completely?

Thus: i like the "old" (being new) way its done, option A. However, with the previso that the damage is being applied to a seperate EMP armour field.
I agree. The lack of separation of different damage types from each other has been missing and annoying. The throwback to EMP resistance was not the best way to do it. The way you outline is close to what I suggested to Kal ages ago, and a lot more sane than the current setup, in my opinion.

Better EMP resistance and guns than 'just' normal armor and damage, but it really should have focused on the current engine and how to expand it rather than how to backport it to the old PA mechanic.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 12:41   #19
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

i've actually run through some of the numbers in an effort to prove that empresistance is actually a pile of crap.

i've successfully managed to do that, proving that even though the emp resistance of a Harpy is far greater than that of a Phantom (76 to 0 I belive?) the phantom is (on a resource cost basis) in fact BETTER at avoiding emp than a harpy.
This example is worked out as follows:

Harpy costs 3600 resources (total) to build
Harpy has an empres of 76, meaning you need (approx) 4.2 guns to freeze it
Beetles stun Harpy and have 7 guns, you need 4.2 to stun a Harpy
4.2 divided by 7 is 0.6 beetles needed per stun
0.6 of a beetle costs 1920 resources
armour cost/stun = 3600/1920 = 1.875

Phantom costs 750 resources (total) to build
Phantom has an empres of 0, meaning you need 1 gun to freeze it
Beetles stun Phantom and have 7 guns, you need 1 to stun a Phantom
1 divided by 7 is 0.14 beetles needed per stun
0.14 of a beetle costs 448 resources
armour cost/stun = 750/448 = 1.674

Harpy: 1.875 (empres of 76)
Phantom : 1.674 (empres of 0)


Frustratingly, the top ten ships also do not necessarily always reflect their empres field usually due to low cost of Xan ships pretty much compensating for their generally low empres as shown:

Ship Name Class Type empres stun/build ratio

Widowmaker Cruiser Norm 90 1:1.1 Cat
Pegasus Destroyer Norm 82 1:1.2 Ter
Banshee Fighter Cloak 45 1:1.3 Xan
Privateer Destroyer 60 1:1.3 Zik
Investor Cruiser Norm 86 1:1.3 Etd
Chimera Destroyer 78 1:1.3 Ter
Apparition Fighter Cloak 30 1:1.3 Xan
Pirate Cruiser Steal 88 1:1.3 Zik
Clipper Destroyer Norm 56 1:1.4 Ter
Demeter Destroyer 81 1:1.4 Ter

I don't think these figures are very representative of their emp resistance fields.

This is (arguably) the way stats should be looked at - the empres field really doesn't help at all in these calculations, but when we can see that phantoms (on a resource cost basis) are better emp flack than harpy.... that has to be wrong?

If the stats maker wants to make any difference, the 'guns needed to stun' field needs to be the key indicator - empres is useless.

suggestion: empres becomes the new stun (and steal?) armour field and every ship has one gun. The empres armour can be tweaked much more easily. And it's less confusing.

-tux
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Last edited by -Blue Moon-; 25 Jan 2007 at 15:12.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 17:56   #20
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
I don't think these figures are very representative of their emp resistance fields.
Just like looking at a door means the house must be perfect. You said it yourself already, guns, emp resistance and ship value all have influence on the outcome. I seriously don't get what i so hard to understand about how EMP works atm (arguably, furballs idea might make it a bit easier to understand i guess). The fact that your example doesn't have the by your desired values doesn't mean it is broken, just that it might not have been applied correctly.
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Unread 26 Jan 2007, 10:23   #21
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Re: Do people like Cathaar 'guns' and empres?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
Just like looking at a door means the house must be perfect. You said it yourself already, guns, emp resistance and ship value all have influence on the outcome. I seriously don't get what i so hard to understand about how EMP works atm (arguably, furballs idea might make it a bit easier to understand i guess). The fact that your example doesn't have the by your desired values doesn't mean it is broken, just that it might not have been applied correctly.
I like you Wandows, but please listen to what I am saying...

The leading reason behind empres was described to me, in very simple terms, that:

"it's a way to make cathaar emp ships freeze certain ships of the same class better than others."

consider this before answering the question in bold:
Why do we care what the apc and dpc ratings of a ship are? Simple. Because it shows us how much armour and how much damage we can expect from that ship in comparison to its cost to build.

Shouldn't we be interested in the erpc (emp resistance per cost) field?

consider this also:
  • why else would we give a phantom an empres of '0' unless we wanted it to be stunned very easily?
  • why else would we give the harpy an empres of '76' unless we wanted it to be stunned less easily?

WHY then, does it cost less resources to stun a Harpy than a Phantom?

I like, support, and have previously recommended the solution of using the empres field as the 'armour' against emp ships -- I have to be honest, I never thought of its use as a stealing field also... which I now think is a very good idea - the field could be simply named:

Resistance
(to emp/stealing)

Here's a quick solution (bare with me):

If every Cathaar EMP ship was given dpc of around 100 (number 100 picked for convenience's sake - and this is presuming that the DAMAGE of an EMP ship is now 'how much resistance 'armour' it stuns')....

Terran ships could have an erpc of around 90-100? (in this example, meaning an almost 1:1 stun rate)
Xan ships could have an erpc of around 60 or so? (in this example, meaning a 3:5 stun rate?)

etc..


Please. Support. This...... or please tell me why this is wrong?
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