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Unread 16 Mar 2015, 20:04   #101
[B5]Londo
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Re: Round 61 stats

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
Also how many of those ETD will focus on FI fleets ? And what will an ETD FI fleet focus on, creditor or gryphon?
The answer to the first is likely to give the answer to the second. The more ETDs go for FI the more they will each proportionally put into gryphons. Not because they necessarily will fight each other (though being low on Gryphs is to be open to that possibility) but because it will raise the number of other FI around to counter them (particularly spiders).

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
For stopping DE ... there is a nice opportunity to build illumintor and investor - but thats sitting value that will be missed in either of their attack/defence fleets.
I dunno about it being wasted. Depending on whether there is much CAT BS then the illuminator could be a perfectly useful defence fleet. Because Scarabs and Bailiffs both hit the Illuminators first (but after the illuminators have fired) the amount of 'wasted' investors you need to be unhitable with DE is gonna be pretty low.
Ofc since i suspect the number of CAT BS will be low (no BS teamup partner) then the illuminator will also as you say be 'wasted'. However, if all the cats arnt BS but are are flying around with massed scarabs that first hit emp is gonna become really valuable ingal!
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Unread 16 Mar 2015, 20:26   #102
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Re: Round 61 stats

i didnt say it was wasted - but its sitting offclass to etdīs fi and de fleets
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Unread 16 Mar 2015, 20:38   #103
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Re: Round 61 stats

It's definitely not something that will make or break Etd Fi (or stats in general), it's just one of the little things that seem to indicate an Etd heavy round.

I do wonder though, why was the Pirate made into a Cr? As Londo said, without a Bs teamup Cath seems rather underwhelming (I suspect at least half will be trying to get Co pods).
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Unread 16 Mar 2015, 21:27   #104
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Re: Round 61 stats

Pirate Change was to close the steal-chain on cathaar - so preventing cathaar widow to steal any other stealship which would add to another then their bs fleet
This was wanted by the admins

Also i think that a low amount of BS fleets will help the few ppl going BS, as fewer ppl will focus on anti BS
At the same time Zik still makes for a good teamup partner with the powerful rogue, while cat would have been roach heavy anyhow
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Unread 18 Mar 2015, 14:57   #105
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Re: Round 61 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
Pirate Change was to close the steal-chain on cathaar - so preventing cathaar widow to steal any other stealship which would add to another then their bs fleet
This was wanted by the admins

Also i think that a low amount of BS fleets will help the few ppl going BS, as fewer ppl will focus on anti BS
At the same time Zik still makes for a good teamup partner with the powerful rogue, while cat would have been roach heavy anyhow
bs looks utterly useless imo, and saying zik is a good team up partner is redicolous.
1. they need to steal bs pods (from the few cats that potensial will go BS)
2. they will make the cath distribute their value badly to compensate for rogue escort. (which will lower the cap aswell)
3. 3 races can go heavy CR, which will totally unbalance BS class further, not to mention all the De class anti BS (which is across all races, and the amazing zik support wont do shit.)
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Unread 19 Mar 2015, 09:01   #106
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Re: Round 61 stats

Thanks for your feedback. That's real useful after stats have been made final.
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Unread 19 Mar 2015, 13:12   #107
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Re: Round 61 stats

Its not his fault that theese stats were made final in its current state, if the stat sets got chosen abit earlier giving some more time before being final, more people might bother helping out with balancing the stats. As I said on irc myself, the two stats in the run looks too crazy for me to put in time to study em both.
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Unread 19 Mar 2015, 14:32   #108
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Re: Round 61 stats

Im pretty sure these stats will be a lot better than the last two rounds.
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Unread 19 Mar 2015, 16:22   #109
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Re: Round 61 stats

depends on how you define better. they seem very limited to me
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Unread 19 Mar 2015, 16:26   #110
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Re: Round 61 stats

Etd fi looks rediculously good. Not sure why anyone would go another race than cat or etd
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Unread 19 Mar 2015, 16:50   #111
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Re: Round 61 stats

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
depends on how you define better. they seem very limited to me
Well more balanced fleet spread wise?
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Unread 20 Mar 2015, 21:25   #112
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Re: Round 61 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
Its not his fault that theese stats were made final in its current state, if the stat sets got chosen abit earlier giving some more time before being final, more people might bother helping out with balancing the stats. As I said on irc myself, the two stats in the run looks too crazy for me to put in time to study em both.
If that was the problem he had, then he should've posted that.
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Unread 21 Mar 2015, 13:28   #113
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Re: Round 61 stats

no xan fi pods

wat
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Unread 1 Apr 2015, 07:40   #114
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Re: Round 61 stats

How is people likeing the stats btw?
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Unread 1 Apr 2015, 09:27   #115
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Re: Round 61 stats

not at all
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Unread 1 Apr 2015, 12:18   #116
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Re: Round 61 stats

EMP seems overly strong, especially the Scarab and Moth. Xans hurt a lot because they need siege, and that means no core.

Ter seems to be doing badly as well, and while I'm sure that's partly because it's the default race for new signups, I bet there's s second reason. Can a Ter player enlighten me?
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Unread 1 Apr 2015, 20:59   #117
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Re: Round 61 stats

I think xan/ter cr can come into play strong later. They are very strong
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Unread 2 Apr 2015, 21:44   #118
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Re: Round 61 stats

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
not at all
you just hate beeing roided by etd fi :P

Though now the time is starting where etd fi isnt landing everything anymore. And aswell i am with butcher thinking that CR has its time to come. I am not sure if its used though.
For TER i assume a lot went for co roiding fleet which isnt that awesome in a universe with so few xans, while de fleets have it easy with them at the same time.
Zik FR seems to work for BF, better then Zik CO for ultores - at least thats my impression - correct me if i am wrong

In Top20 for size are atm:
0 TER
6 CAT
4 XAN
5 ZIK
5 ETD
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Unread 3 Apr 2015, 03:08   #119
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Re: Round 61 stats

terran cr kinda useless atm, xan cr pwns them.

etd fi will land until last tick, no reason to believe they will just stop landing easy. u can solo any planet, a lot bigger then u. in a big war, u can just be lucky and land some xp targets.

zik fr hits zik co. cant compare them in a direct war. but this universe full of fighters makes good be a zik fi.co.
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Unread 4 Apr 2015, 14:22   #120
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Re: Round 61 stats

I have to say im not sure i see the renaissance of CR that ppl seem to expect. There is a fk load of DE in attack fleets that can defend against them. And to make it worse those without DE attack fleets have had to build a load of FR to fight the DE. The avengers and thieves also fire, somewhat weakly, against the CR. The rest acts as flack for those that do fire.
OTOH There is a faceless CR team with xan/terr + illuminators that seems to march around unstoppable.
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Unread 4 May 2015, 14:38   #121
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Re: Round 61 stats

Butcher's idea of getting feedback midround was a good one. Now that the round is almost over, what are people's thoughts on the stats?

I've heard some complaints about Cat De being hard to stop, and EMP effs in general are far too high in my opinion. Something to watch out for in future rounds.

Etd has the most round roids gained and lost, and most average XP, by far, which can be explained by Etd Fi being strong on offense and weak on defense. I don't think there's anything wrong with having a fleet or two like that, though Etd should probably have been a weaker in general. Cat comes in second in that list, but their gained/lost roids are only a little higher than those of the other races.

The value and performance of Xan seems to be lagging far behind Cat, Zik and Etd. Xan probably ran into trouble because of the high EMP effs.

Ter did only a little better than Xan, capping and losing the fewest roids of all races, and having the least XP. Too defensive, and no good forting opportunities?
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Unread 4 May 2015, 15:08   #122
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Re: Round 61 stats

Scarab was OP, mainly because it meant cath had a 1 ship attackfleet, which generally is OP. General EMP effectiveness was a bit on the high end, but wouldn't say too high across the board.

xan lagging probably also had something to do with slow research and needing CR for faking.

While Ter is fairly strong defensively, you can't really land anyone without a teamup, whilst xans (and etd DE) has podrun capabilities. The only race they could hit by themselfs were xan, and fakes were hard to do early on with bombers hitting both their podclasses. Later on baliff hit so hard that even a fleet of fake baliff ensured bombers could stay and fight most of the time making fakes impossible still.
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Unread 4 May 2015, 15:35   #123
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Re: Round 61 stats

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Scarab was OP, mainly because it meant cath had a 1 ship attackfleet, which generally is OP. General EMP effectiveness was a bit on the high end, but wouldn't say too high across the board.
I agree with this.


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The only race they could hit by themselfs were xan, and fakes were hard to do early on with bombers hitting both their podclasses. Later on baliff hit so hard that even a fleet of fake baliff ensured bombers could stay and fight most of the time making fakes impossible still.
By bombers you mean Judges so cloaked etd DE hit both their podclasses? (bombers hit CO/CR)
Running on the assumption that you did mean ETD DE, ETD is only strong enough against xans if they are an DE focused ETD. By building a lot of DE an ETD becomes reasonably strong against xan (who do however hit first both from CR and FR) but they will have few fi leaving them open to FI/CO. Its a trade off and thats how it should be, as an ETD with a FI focus I am weak against xan, not strong.
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Unread 4 May 2015, 16:02   #124
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Re: Round 61 stats

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
By bombers you mean Judges so cloaked etd DE hit both their podclasses? (bombers hit CO/CR)
Running on the assumption that you did mean ETD DE, ETD is only strong enough against xans if they are an DE focused ETD. By building a lot of DE an ETD becomes reasonably strong against xan (who do however hit first both from CR and FR) but they will have few fi leaving them open to FI/CO. Its a trade off and thats how it should be, as an ETD with a FI focus I am weak against xan, not strong.
No i meant bombers, as i was talking about terran in that part of my post.
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Unread 4 May 2015, 16:33   #125
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Re: Round 61 stats

ah how stupid of me!
Yeah terran seems to have struggled somewhat. However, A fake fleet of baliffs could let the bombers stand and fight? I have two problems with this as a criticism of the stats:
First, if the Bailiffs are fake are you really gonna risk your bombers? - a personal choice, that, to risk or not.
Second, and more seriously: You could say ETD, XAN, CAT and ZIK could all stand and demolish a fake if they had bailiff defence, because they all have FR targeting CO which would be shielded by the Bailiffs, indeed three of them have FR that are worth leaving in the fight because they hit CR themselves.
The stats are not designed to allow small groups of CO to land against planets with FR! Ive always thought that to expect to be able to land uncloaked fakes against defence is a big ask. The fake allows you to double the attack potential of your CR but not to wish away the fact that there is defence, this doesn't make the fake useless, just that the threat that it is your CR needs to have worked to get the FR out of the way.
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Unread 4 May 2015, 16:56   #126
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Re: Round 61 stats

before the round i was afraid making TER too strong defensively - they werent in the end - but at the same time they were a lil too weak offensively for my liking
the low amount of xans meant less targets for TER co then i expected to be

Cath Scarab was too strong i agree - maybe switching t1 and t2 would have been a good idea
At the same time eff's on both BS was too high
Mantis was a rather useless ship which i should have deleted i guess

Xan is very strong imo - i really dont see why so few went XAN
probably has to do with a better cloaked fleet out there (etd)

Zik good - very good imo

Etd Fi suffered from their pods beeing easily frozen - while i would fix this - iīd lower the effs of both fi slightly
Etd De was a nice thing to play - classic Xan podlanding gameplay

Overall i think Etd had 2 very good roiding fleets - so we ended a bit unbalanced on the racial distribution
Nothing overly bad though, since they lost their roids as fast as they gained em
The same applies for the overpowered Cath DE fleet

Finally i have to say i am happy about the outcome of my first set in usage - i learned much about making stats and i promise the next set i make will be better balanced, a lil more defensive - but for sure overall still an offensive set
cause my philosophy of a fun round is beeing able to land attacks, even on the top alliances
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Unread 4 May 2015, 21:22   #127
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Re: Round 61 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
ah how stupid of me!
Yeah terran seems to have struggled somewhat. However, A fake fleet of baliffs could let the bombers stand and fight? I have two problems with this as a criticism of the stats:
First, if the Bailiffs are fake are you really gonna risk your bombers? - a personal choice, that, to risk or not.
Second, and more seriously: You could say ETD, XAN, CAT and ZIK could all stand and demolish a fake if they had bailiff defence, because they all have FR targeting CO which would be shielded by the Bailiffs, indeed three of them have FR that are worth leaving in the fight because they hit CR themselves.
The stats are not designed to allow small groups of CO to land against planets with FR! Ive always thought that to expect to be able to land uncloaked fakes against defence is a big ask. The fake allows you to double the attack potential of your CR but not to wish away the fact that there is defence, this doesn't make the fake useless, just that the threat that it is your CR needs to have worked to get the FR out of the way.
Yes the baliff would likely cover the fake on all other races too, however, you can't attack the other races with ter CR solo anyhow. At least up to a point, xans were a viable target for that. As for faking giving a CR fleet too much of an advantage, that's part of the charm of going capital ships, at least for me. Granted the costs of capitital ships are now such that faking has already become quite a risk anyhow as your fakes are never enough value to pack a punch regardless.
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Unread 4 May 2015, 23:12   #128
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Re: Round 61 stats

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Granted the costs of capitital ships are now such that faking has already become quite a risk anyhow as your fakes are never enough value to pack a punch regardless.
Yes i noticed this when looking back at old stats for ship names for booji's stats set: The Tycoon an ETD battleship in the first PAX round I played r25 cost 300 of each, while today's Investor costs 1505, 1340, 1340.
This four fold increase in costs is not equaled at the other end. r25's vendor (CO) cost 75, 100, 75. Today's ETD CO dealer costs 93, 93, 111.
I have not looked at other rounds to see whether this disparity in inflation is shown across races, or whether capital ship inflation is gradual through the rounds or moves in fits and starts. However, I am interested to know it it has been a deliberate policy? If so then I'm surprised because I thought people generally liked to have bigger numbers of ships.
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Unread 4 May 2015, 23:36   #129
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Re: Round 61 stats

I played xan. Let me tell you it is utter garbage. Each roiding class is solo stopped by 2-3 ships each. Fr is stopped by scarab, sylph, moth, wraith far too easily. So fr attacking became useless. Cr stopped by scarabs again and rogues meant solo attacking became extremely hard, and couldn't pump all red into one ship like cath the value spread weakened the attack, it was OK for defensive purposes.
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Unread 5 May 2015, 01:12   #130
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Re: Round 61 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
Yes i noticed this when looking back at old stats for ship names for booji's stats set: The Tycoon an ETD battleship in the first PAX round I played r25 cost 300 of each, while today's Investor costs 1505, 1340, 1340.
This four fold increase in costs is not equaled at the other end. r25's vendor (CO) cost 75, 100, 75. Today's ETD CO dealer costs 93, 93, 111.
I have not looked at other rounds to see whether this disparity in inflation is shown across races, or whether capital ship inflation is gradual through the rounds or moves in fits and starts. However, I am interested to know it it has been a deliberate policy? If so then I'm surprised because I thought people generally liked to have bigger numbers of ships.
i dunno the exact round (apparently it was r50), but i know it was deliberately trippled at some point for the benefit of that rounds stats, it changed back a few times after that (r51/56/57). While having larger numbers of ships was generally liked, i do believe the cost increase improved balance when it comes to faking. If you look at r41 for instance, faking attacks was incredibly strong that round, also because there were 4 races with both capital and light pods. I personally like it when the average costs increase is around 500 per class, but i can't point out an exact reason for that, probably because it seems to be a decent middle ground.
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Unread 5 May 2015, 06:04   #131
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Re: Round 61 stats

Oh! That was me!

Yeah, I did that because I really like fakes, because faking is one of the very few ways skill comes into play in PA. I intentionally made Fi/Co much, much cheaper than Cr/Bs, thus allowing players to fake while risking much less value. This has made it harder to kill ships while faking, but made it easier to cap roids.

There was also some precedence for it. In round 14-17, the cost ratio between Ter Fi and Ter Bs was 35. This dropped to 25 in r18, 12 in r19 and then went up again to 19 in r20-24. In round 25 it dropped once more to 8.5, and it seems to have stayed that way (I didn't check all rounds) until I brought them back up to 35 in r50. Since then, the ratio has fluctuated between 33-62 and 9-11, with nothing in between.
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Unread 5 May 2015, 15:41   #132
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Re: Round 61 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Oh! That was me!

Yeah, I did that because I really like fakes, because faking is one of the very few ways skill comes into play in PA. I intentionally made Fi/Co much, much cheaper than Cr/Bs, thus allowing players to fake while risking much less value. This has made it harder to kill ships while faking, but made it easier to cap roids.

There was also some precedence for it. In round 14-17, the cost ratio between Ter Fi and Ter Bs was 35. This dropped to 25 in r18, 12 in r19 and then went up again to 19 in r20-24. In round 25 it dropped once more to 8.5, and it seems to have stayed that way (I didn't check all rounds) until I brought them back up to 35 in r50. Since then, the ratio has fluctuated between 33-62 and 9-11, with nothing in between.
you could say because the fakefleets are so small in value, it's much more a fire and forget game than it is with cheaper capital ships, especially in the early stages of the round. or perhaps launch and pray is a better expression as you just pray it gets through without risking (too) much value. With cheaper capital ships fakes have to be monitored more closely as you 'risk' more value. Make capital ships too cheap and you endanger fakes becoming too potent again tho. I don't know if skill plays a bigger role with either tho. Just know I only finished high in rounds with cheaper capital ships, and all due to 'skillfully' faking with retals on top 100 planets.
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Unread 6 May 2015, 18:32   #133
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Re: Round 61 stats

There's a balance to be struck (or a choice to be made) when it comes to cost differences. Make Capital ships too expensive, and you just have hope the target doesn't keep his anti-Fi/Co home or he will stop it with minimal effort. Make them too cheap (relative to lower classes), and you're risking value by faking - but there are scenarios in which Bs are only 2-3 times more expensive than De, you might actually be able to land your fake on the base fleet or perhaps even def. It all depends on the stats and what you want to do with them.
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