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Unread 14 Jun 2016, 16:59   #51
BloodyButcher
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
You forget to add the fact, that he sold the ships at base for more resources to init with.
Sorry if i sound thick, but are you sarcastic or trying to say this made a difference?
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Unread 14 Jun 2016, 17:00   #52
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by eksero View Post
which closures are you talking about pal?
I dont know, thats why i ask how you could forget this incident
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Unread 14 Jun 2016, 17:35   #53
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I'm not sure if defense needs to be rewarded at all, to be honest, beyond what it accomplishes: you get to hold onto your roids.
The only situation where I dont agree with that is when at the end of the round we have to start covering crashes for green.
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Unread 14 Jun 2016, 18:10   #54
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
What I find hilariously tragic is Norse is going to try and fence win again. They'll do what they want of course. Fleetcatches, lolwaves etc, but when you hit one of their planets, they'll do their classic emo threats.

By the way, I'm not playing.
It's usually those we hit that emo.
We just recruited 10 newbs, what have your alliance done for the community lately?
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Unread 14 Jun 2016, 18:21   #55
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
What I find hilariously tragic is Norse is going to try and fence win again. They'll do what they want of course. Fleetcatches, lolwaves etc, but when you hit one of their planets, they'll do their classic emo threats.

By the way, I'm not playing.
Haha, little clouds is angry for what now? You cant take any credit for inneed's work anymore, so u quit?

We did however FC an annoying planet yes, so you are not completly wrong.

Emo threats? No, we retal our incs. I recall some EMO comming from your end tho
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Unread 14 Jun 2016, 18:22   #56
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Cool Re: r67 who will win

Ofcourse you wouldnt participate in that mxy!
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Unread 14 Jun 2016, 18:38   #57
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Re: r67 who will win

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Ofcourse you wouldnt participate in that mxy!
Such a teamwork between the HCs of so many alliances can't be possible. I wouldn't have to.
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Unread 14 Jun 2016, 18:45   #58
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Re: r67 who will win

Team benneh ftw
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Unread 14 Jun 2016, 20:31   #59
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
I dont know, thats why i ask how you could forget this incident
You're the one talking about forgetting shit, I don't know what you're on about pal!
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Unread 14 Jun 2016, 21:27   #60
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
What I find hilariously tragic is Norse is going to try and fence win again. They'll do what they want of course. Fleetcatches, lolwaves etc, but when you hit one of their planets, they'll do their classic emo threats.

By the way, I'm not playing.
Lol quite fast with the "not playing" quote
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Unread 14 Jun 2016, 21:34   #61
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Thumbs down Re: r67 who will win

I allways liked xp, even in xp rounds. But this 1 ship def xp shit ruins the game and we should go back to value only else you will see alot more like it coming rounds..
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Unread 14 Jun 2016, 22:08   #62
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Re: r67 who will win

Ive never understood this determanation that there should only be one method of playing that has a chance of winning. Why should defending not be a possibility? Or xp attacking, scanning, cov opping etc? Ideally there would be multiple ways to potentially build enough score to win rather than the old value route. Of course they should be very difficult to do but not impossible. And on the contrary to Golden this is as someone who plays the value game well and is really dire at xp
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Unread 14 Jun 2016, 22:10   #63
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
Ive never understood this determanation that there should only be one method of playing that has a chance of winning. Why should defending not be a possibility? Or xp attacking, scanning, cov opping etc? Ideally there would be multiple ways to potentially build enough score to win rather than the old value route. Of course they should be very difficult to do but not impossible. And on the contrary to Golden this is as someone who plays the value game well and is really dire at xp
Im not sure anyone is saying that defence whoring the old way shouldnt be a winnable strategy.
The problem is that initiating roids/farming them away, just to abuse a weak XP system should not be a winnable strategy.
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Unread 14 Jun 2016, 23:16   #64
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Re: r67 who will win

My point is that there is always this hollering and cries of cheating whenever someone thinks up a new way to potentially win. Almost by definition a new way of doing this is a new way of 'exploiting' the game and given how long we have all been at it it is no surprise that the new ideas have become odder and less in keeping with how everyone else plays. Something that I have no doubt only adds to the disquiet.

No one has yet explained how initiating roids when not in collusion with attackers, when not initiating when under attack, is cheating. You keep mentioning an old case but it sounds like it was totally different if as has been mentioned there was initiating while actually with incoming inbound. That seems clearly an initiation to benefit an individual. Not the case here. If initiating roids more broadly is considered to be farming or a a problem then the game needs to have a hard limit for a number of roids you can initiate in a round. I personally think the game would be much worse off for such a move. The problem you have is that initiating roids is done for one reason only in this game; to gain score/value and increase the chance of winning. By this measure this is exactly what Benneh and co are doing here. They have struck on a strategy that has the same outcome that the game is geared towards of score gain while losing lots of roids rather than having to keep them. Moreover it is not just something that benefits one person ingal with the rest being the 'farms' as seems to be the accusation; others seem to also engage in the xp defending ingal to some extent.
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 00:12   #65
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Re: r67 who will win

What is a closeable offense, and what is not is not easy to explain with writing down some rules.
The CroWke incident is just one example of it.

Not stopping people from abusing game features in a way that encourage playing in some other way than PA is aiming for should be stopped.
"hate the game, not the player" you might say, and that could certainly be true with how defence XP works/is designed.

If it was a close race between alliance X and alliance Y the last day, or planet X1/Y1 the last day, and im under attack by either of them, i could decide the winner by trolling and initiating roids to give more XP to one of them. Maybe the attacker isnt the one being a "farm" or donating roids/xp, but he surely is taking advantage of me doing it?
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 07:01   #66
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
What is a closeable offense, and what is not is not easy to explain with writing down some rules.
This is why I am also in favour of more mh transparency and case files.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Not stopping people from abusing game features in a way that encourage playing in some other way than PA is aiming for should be stopped.
What is the way that 'PA is aiming for'? That is for the PA team to decide after this round whether this particular xp wheeze is against what they want and then close it down if that is the case by changing how def xp is calculated.

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If it was a close race between alliance X and alliance Y the last day, or planet X1/Y1 the last day, and im under attack by either of them, i could decide the winner by trolling and initiating roids to give more XP to one of them. Maybe the attacker isnt the one being a "farm" or donating roids/xp, but he surely is taking advantage of me doing it?
The analogy is not correct though - they are not initiating roids to give people xp. A closer, though still hardly perfect, analogy would be an alliance letting one contending alliance land while defending another to give one the win. And guess what, it has happened with no consequences; Ult let CT land and blocked FL and BF on the last day of round 57. CT won. Of course there is no problem with that because we all recognise it is a strategic decision for the alliance to make. Why should a strategic choice to encourage incs to increase xp also not be considered the same way?
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 07:15   #67
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
The analogy is not correct though - they are not initiating roids to give people xp. A closer, though still hardly perfect, analogy would be an alliance letting one contending alliance land while defending another to give one the win. And guess what, it has happened with no consequences; Ult let CT land and blocked FL and BF on the last day of round 57. CT won. Of course there is no problem with that because we all recognise it is a strategic decision for the alliance to make. Why should a strategic choice to encourage incs to increase xp also not be considered the same way?
Guess what, letting another allie/planet land you is against the rules.
Pretty hard to detect or prove, not in this case though.
Its a reason why everyone invaded the MHs channels the last day of three rounds ago when Nelito let his gal be landed for XP.

This time its pretty obvious to detect, as its a repeated action, letting other planets land them.
Its almost like i consider going and report them to prove you wrong...
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 08:23   #68
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Guess what, letting another allie/planet land you is against the rules.
Pretty hard to detect or prove, not in this case though.
Its a reason why everyone invaded the MHs channels the last day of three rounds ago when Nelito let his gal be landed for XP.

This time its pretty obvious to detect, as its a repeated action, letting other planets land them.
Its almost like i consider going and report them to prove you wrong...
If you think it is cheating then yes you should report it, but not because of wanting to prove someone wrong.
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 08:48   #69
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Re: r67 who will win

Its not my job to cry to the MHs to get people closed.

They have noticed these initaters, im sure of that.
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 10:25   #70
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
Its not my job to cry to the MHs to get people closed.

They have noticed these initaters, im sure of that.
Then why bring it up? You don't agree with the way someone plays, so you want someone else to report them because you think it's cheating?
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 12:29   #71
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Re: r67 who will win

Benneh's strategy is to defend his galmates for XP. His galmates, when roided, re-initiates. This is not cheating or abuse. It's a strategy. Do you expect them to not 're-initiate and sit in 99 roids the entire round?
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 13:48   #72
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Guess what, letting another allie/planet land you is against the rules.
Pretty hard to detect or prove, not in this case though.
Its a reason why everyone invaded the MHs channels the last day of three rounds ago when Nelito let his gal be landed for XP.

This time its pretty obvious to detect, as its a repeated action, letting other planets land them.
Its almost like i consider going and report them to prove you wrong...
So not actively defending is cheating? Just to clarify

If so will there be retrospective action for all those nights p3n, ct et al let 100+ fleets land?

Or again are to trying to twist perceptions of the rules to justify your outrage that someone came up with something you didn't (again!) and then actively smearing them on the forums.
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 16:01   #73
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Re: r67 who will win

where is lokken when you need him?
How is it ok that BButcher gets to harass players with name over and over with no consequence?

And to BB: Stop smudging names and lame ass accusations about rule violations. Go report it instead, and see what the outcome will bring.
It's not you that decides what is cheating and what is not.
So stop acting like you are.
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 19:36   #74
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Re: r67 who will win

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where is lokken when you need him?
How is it ok that BButcher gets to harass players with name over and over with no consequence?

And to BB: Stop smudging names and lame ass accusations about rule violations. Go report it instead, and see what the outcome will bring.
It's not you that decides what is cheating and what is not.
So stop acting like you are.
As I see it Butcher is just saying what his view of cheating is and it's part of a debate that everyone seems fairly comfortable with. I disagree with him, as it happens.

Also, you can use the report post function.
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 20:25   #75
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Re: r67 who will win

I dont know who owns the planets in question, so im not smudging any names tbh.

For CroWke case he was closed, its not like im making it up.

For nelito it was not me who reported him back then, im merly relaying the info.
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 21:18   #76
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Guess what, letting another allie/planet land you is against the rules.
Pretty hard to detect or prove, not in this case though.
Its a reason why everyone invaded the MHs channels the last day of three rounds ago when Nelito let his gal be landed for XP.

This time its pretty obvious to detect, as its a repeated action, letting other planets land them.
Its almost like i consider going and report them to prove you wrong...
A defence fleet isn't landing. It's stopping another fleet from landing. So you could never get the defending planet closed.
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 21:22   #77
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by lokken View Post
A defence fleet isn't landing. It's stopping another fleet from landing. So you could never get the defending planet closed.
Nobody said that the XP planet was to be closed.
The planets initiating roids to give away should
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 21:41   #78
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Nobody said that the XP planet was to be closed.
The planets initiating roids to give away should
Initiating roids isn't landing a fleet. You don't have to defend if you don't want to.
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 21:43   #79
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Nobody said that the XP planet was to be closed.
The planets initiating roids to give away should
Yup, and we should close every planet that doesn't get defense, or gets attacked after initing, or is in an alliance that doesn't defend well. Might want to think about banning attacking too, it's a great way to avoid people exploiting mechanics for their gain.
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 22:02   #80
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Re: r67 who will win

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Initiating roids isn't landing a fleet. You don't have to defend if you don't want to.
Its not allowed to initiate roids intentionaly to give away to other planets.
This is how this gal get/got all these incommings for the XP planet to defend.
Just close the roid initiaters, and lets see if he can manage to XP win by defending normal incommings on normal planets, not pod fleets on roid farms.
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 22:03   #81
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by theory View Post
Yup, and we should close every planet that doesn't get defense, or gets attacked after initing, or is in an alliance that doesn't defend well. Might want to think about banning attacking too, it's a great way to avoid people exploiting mechanics for their gain.
The MHs rarely close planets just for initiating, but unless you are blind there is a clear pattern going on here wich says that the planets in question is initiating roids to give away to other planets.
If you dont see it, fine.
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 22:19   #82
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Its not allowed to initiate roids intentionaly to give away to other planets.
This is how this gal get/got all these incommings for the XP planet to defend.
Just close the roid initiaters, and lets see if he can manage to XP win by defending normal incommings on normal planets, not pod fleets on roid farms.
But even if they are initiating, surely the central reason they are doing so is to give score to their defender, not to benefit their attackers.
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 22:45   #83
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Re: r67 who will win

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Nobody said that the XP planet was to be closed.
The planets initiating roids to give away should
How is initiating roids AFTER you got attacked illegal?
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 22:45   #84
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by lokken View Post
But even if they are initiating, surely the central reason they are doing so is to give score to their defender, not to benefit their attackers.
Yeah, surely that is the reason, but it benefitting both the attacker and defender, and its to me a clear violation of the rules.

eksero actualy tried saying that perhaps they dont know.
TheoDD saying that selling your ships to init roids is diffrent, and would be a punishable offense.

Im not trying to discredit the creativity, or saying that the XP planet did something illegale, but initiating roids without any attempt on keeping em/donating em to other planets, its against the rules.
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 22:46   #85
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
How is initiating roids AFTER you got attacked illegal?
How is initating roids while you are under attack any difference? If you intend to give them away anyway?
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 22:49   #86
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
How is initating roids while you are under attack any difference? If you intend to give them away anyway?
Because you are purposely donating if you initiate WHILE under attack, but if you initiate AFTERWARDS (like quite a lot of other players do), it isn't cheating. Maybe the majority of players are cheating when they initiate after they've been attacked. Or is it Benneh's crew who are cheaters because of your narrow-minded prejudice towards him?
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 23:07   #87
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
Because you are purposely donating if you initiate WHILE under attack, but if you initiate AFTERWARDS (like quite a lot of other players do), it isn't cheating. Maybe the majority of players are cheating when they initiate after they've been attacked. Or is it Benneh's crew who are cheaters because of your narrow-minded prejudice towards him?
The argument being, that that gal who got the XP planet is PURPOSELY donating roids away.
They dont initiate to try to defend them, so if they initiate them while under attack or right after an attack dosnt matter at all, as the end result will be the same, them giving away the asteroids.
While eksero actualy trying to say that they dont know what they are doing while they are initiating asteroids, both you and TheoDD try claim that its something diffrent how/when the roids are initiated.

I dont think anybody here care who is the ones doing it, trying to claim that its some conspiracy against certain individuals is paranoid.
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 23:52   #88
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Re: r67 who will win

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Yeah, surely that is the reason, but it benefitting both the attacker and defender, and its to me a clear violation of the rules..
But you've got no evidence of collusion with the attacker, and in fact the only clear evidence you do have is that they are working to benefit the defender. Those two facts suggest that there is a pretty weak ass case for any kind of closure.
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 23:55   #89
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
How is initating roids while you are under attack any difference? If you intend to give them away anyway?
Because as far as I know, the initiation of roids is irrelevant in the eyes of the rules. It is the intent of the attack.
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Unread 15 Jun 2016, 23:57   #90
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by lokken View Post
But you've got no evidence of collusion with the attacker, and in fact the only clear evidence you do have is that they are working to benefit the defender. Those two facts suggest that there is a pretty weak ass case for any kind of closure.
It has been punished in the past, and it should be punished now.
If you think evidence for collusion(working together?) with the attacker will ever appear in any farming incident, you might look into what is considered evidence for the MHs.
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Unread 16 Jun 2016, 00:01   #91
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Because as far as I know, the initiation of roids is irrelevant in the eyes of the rules. It is the intent of the attack.
Well you havnt been playing, or been talking to MHs in ages by the sound of it.

But as Clouds and many other pointing towards directly or indirectly, that initiating roids to donate away has been and will always be a closeable offense in those cases that the evidence of this happening is overwhelming.

Now you see everyone that is backing that gal is trying to argue why this case is diffrent than the others.
"They are not selling ships to init roids"
"They are initating roids between the waves"
"They dont know they cant keep the roids"
etc etc...
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Unread 16 Jun 2016, 00:10   #92
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
It has been punished in the past, and it should be punished now.
If you think evidence for collusion(working together?) with the attacker will ever appear in any farming incident, you might look into what is considered evidence for the MHs.
The MHs should act far more aggressively in my view but they have always been overcautious in my opinion. But there is no evidence of cheating here. All initiating roids does is give further weight to collusion taking place. But their behaviour is not driven by the attacker. It is driven by the defender.

It is a clever loophole and fair play to them: they will have their fun and the loophole will be closed. And their success is infinitely preferable to the value playing escort driven farm boosted alternative that wins fairly consistently. So why complain?

In case it wasn't obvious: Benneh for the win.
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Unread 16 Jun 2016, 01:09   #93
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Re: r67 who will win

I "play" almost every round (bar this one, new job yay) and initiate roids after every time I get roided...build ships for a bit, no attacks, init a few more, etc. Keeps the universe fed to a small extent, as I'm usually exiled around and good/decent galaxies usually won't keep me around long.

There is certainly no agreements with anyone pre-round about me helping anyone as a farm, or otherwise. Just another planet, another target, more roids in the universe. Free to play, win-win.


That being said, I'm tired and halfway following this thread so will someone please explain what Benneh is doing that's causing a fuss? Sending 1 ship def fleets for 300xp? Everyone in that galaxy initiating roids to get waved, and "abusing" it since you get your fleet back 1 tick after the 1 ship dies in a combat, and just spamming the shit out 1 ship in-gal def fleets for xp?

I'm borederline heat exhausted, so please bear with me.

Also, lol Benneh.
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Unread 16 Jun 2016, 01:18   #94
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Re: r67 who will win

The persons in question will never get closed because there's no evidence to support your cheating allegations. It's not cheating. They just found found a loophole.

Cheating is defined as breaking or abusing the rules, which certainly isn't the case in this instance. The persons in question are playing a perfectly legal strategy within the rules.

Now, if they were directly setting up people to attack said planets, then that would obviously be cheating, under farming, but because they're easy roids, people attack them anyway.

Your problem is that benneh is maximising defence xp as his strategy to stay on top. He nor his galaxy is cheating, the system is broken. Why are you directing blame to the players when it's the Devs who have a broken system?

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Unread 16 Jun 2016, 04:05   #95
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Re: r67 who will win

I'm guessing Clouds' post is directed at someone else.

Or I'm a complete idiot. Which is entirely possible.

My original question stands...
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Unread 16 Jun 2016, 05:35   #96
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Re: r67 who will win

Its not what Benneh is doing.
Its his galaxy mates initiating roids to have other planets attack them for free.
Meanwhile you can say you do the same when you play, but you dont set yourself up to be roided or aim to be roided as much as possibole.

Benneh(if he is the XP planet) by the rules, and should remain open, his galaxy mates should be closed for initiating to get roided.
If you look at his galaxy mates theyve been roided 80ish ticks allready wich im not sure has ever happend even in a full round for any planet.
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Unread 16 Jun 2016, 05:57   #97
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Its not what Benneh is doing.
Its his galaxy mates initiating roids to have other planets attack them for free.
Meanwhile you can say you do the same when you play, but you dont set yourself up to be roided or aim to be roided as much as possibole.

Benneh(if he is the XP planet) by the rules, and should remain open, his galaxy mates should be closed for initiating to get roided.
If you look at his galaxy mates theyve been roided 80ish ticks allready wich im not sure has ever happend even in a full round for any planet.
Everytime anyone in the game gains roids via attacking or iniating they are setting themselves up to be attacked. If you are in a place where you aren't able to stop people taking them then that's your choice.

I don't understand how what you are saying is any different to HR doing night raids, they are gaining roids with no genuine intention of keeping them, such is the defensive nature of their alliance. What they do isn't cheating though. Just because they took the long route of the Fleets page rather than the mining page.

If you want this to stop and the universe is so outraged then get everyone to stop attacking them, then they can't defend
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Unread 16 Jun 2016, 06:32   #98
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
I "play" almost every round (bar this one, new job yay) and initiate roids after every time I get roided...build ships for a bit, no attacks, init a few more, etc. Keeps the universe fed to a small extent, as I'm usually exiled around and good/decent galaxies usually won't keep me around long.

There is certainly no agreements with anyone pre-round about me helping anyone as a farm, or otherwise. Just another planet, another target, more roids in the universe. Free to play, win-win.


That being said, I'm tired and halfway following this thread so will someone please explain what Benneh is doing that's causing a fuss? Sending 1 ship def fleets for 300xp? Everyone in that galaxy initiating roids to get waved, and "abusing" it since you get your fleet back 1 tick after the 1 ship dies in a combat, and just spamming the shit out 1 ship in-gal def fleets for xp?

I'm borederline heat exhausted, so please bear with me.

Also, lol Benneh.
Ye spot on
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Unread 16 Jun 2016, 06:53   #99
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Re: r67 who will win

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
The persons in question will never get closed because there's no evidence to support your cheating allegations. It's not cheating. They just found found a loophole.

Cheating is defined as breaking or abusing the rules, which certainly isn't the case in this instance. The persons in question are playing a perfectly legal strategy within the rules.

Now, if they were directly setting up people to attack said planets, then that would obviously be cheating, under farming, but because they're easy roids, people attack them anyway.

Your problem is that benneh is maximising defence xp as his strategy to stay on top. He nor his galaxy is cheating, the system is broken. Why are you directing blame to the players when it's the Devs who have a broken system?
I got no clue what allie Benneh is in, checking the news scan the incs often comes from teh same planets in Ultores/Black-Flag amongs others.

If he was apart of either of those, would it be okey for me to help my alliance mate farm XP by attacking his galaxy mate who is set up to feed him with def XP?

Im not at all saying that Benneh is having his allie mates help him in his "strategy", as i dont even know what alliance he is in.
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Unread 16 Jun 2016, 09:19   #100
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Re: r67 who will win

Benneh is untagged. Also Hitler ChronoX removed his Slack access, so I guess benneh isn't part of BF anymore.
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