|
24 Aug 2006, 11:27
|
#1
|
Ex-Head Multihunter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: At home
Posts: 900
|
Cheating accusations - not in the open
People,
Lately, I have seen many many accusations fly around on the forums and irc, of other people cheating, alliances cheating, etc.
Imo, this is not accepted behaviour.
I always thought that when people suspect other people of cheating, this is a case for MH team only and the planet suspected of cheating. I think that the unchecked & public accusations of cheating are:
1 - against netiquette
2 - harmfull for the planets or alliances in question (in case they are accused wrongly)
3 - not anyones bussiness
I for one would like to have a gentlemens agreement (women included :P) that accusations should be only taken up with the MH team.
I could elaborate of course, but everyone should understand this.
- Remy -
P.S. lets not make this a flame thread pls?
__________________
R02.0-R4.0: [noob]
R05.0: [Wrath]/[Fury]
R06.0: Quit after 1 week
R7-9: Had an account, but didnt play seriously
R09.5: []LCH[] Officer
R10.0: []LCH[] HC (Rank #9, #1 Gal)
R10.5-R18.0: []LCH[] HC Scanner!
R18.0-R33 : Multihunter, Head MH
R34-.. : [CT] HC
|
|
|
24 Aug 2006, 11:30
|
#2
|
Fightin-irish for life
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: guinness brewery
Posts: 2,177
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
couldnt agree more but its pa and there are too many sore losers in the game
winners win and losers whine its almost a tradition now
__________________
Ascendancy, now with added Irish
"In the absence of orders, find something and kill it."
-Rommel
|
|
|
24 Aug 2006, 11:31
|
#3
|
For Crowly <3
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Luton, England
Posts: 1,391
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Agreed totally Remy.
Your always welcome in #multihunters if you have some thing along the lines of cheating and you can always submit a support ticket as they are also picked up by MH's
__________________
[14:53:26] * Keiz`afk has joined #support
[14:53:36] <Keiz`afk> THE SMUDGE CHEERLEADING TEAM HAS ARRIVED
|
|
|
24 Aug 2006, 11:39
|
#4
|
No Alliance
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: England
Posts: 125
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
I do completely agree Remy, there boring and mostly fueled by jelousey by people who cant play PA properly
__________________
How about i paste all my co-ords form previous rounds below, it might make me look more important??
or not
|
|
|
24 Aug 2006, 12:07
|
#5
|
Domestic Diva
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Just past a sort of reddy moon, you cant miss it!
Posts: 702
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
right there with you remy... so tired of reading the "he did this bla bla bla" threads
__________________
[F-Crew] HC
<rext> chef recall your fleet m8 they going to fc u
<Chef> recall my fleet?
<Chef> ive not logged in for two days
Its Only Nasty, When Its Not True.
|
|
|
24 Aug 2006, 12:15
|
#6
|
Poblacht na hÉireann
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,167
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
I do think we should differentiate between accusing planets of cheating when they are still open and gossiping about planets that the MH's have already closed (Kargools thread for example.)
I find the latter acceptable if not all that interesting.
|
|
|
24 Aug 2006, 12:45
|
#7
|
Fightin-irish for life
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: guinness brewery
Posts: 2,177
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I do think we should differentiate between accusing planets of cheating when they are still open and gossiping about planets that the MH's have already closed (Kargools thread for example.)
I find the latter acceptable if not all that interesting.
|
i agree , if its common knowledge they have been closed then we can discuss it
__________________
Ascendancy, now with added Irish
"In the absence of orders, find something and kill it."
-Rommel
|
|
|
24 Aug 2006, 12:51
|
#8
|
-Narcissus.Narcosis-
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 133
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Maybe there should be a forum specifically for reporting cheaters. Obviously there would have to be rules about what type of posts are allowed, i.e. to accuse someone you have to provide some kind of evidence to back up your claim...Then people can go there and bitch all they like about that person...
________
California medical marijuana dispensary
Last edited by TouRiQueT; 13 Sep 2011 at 07:03.
|
|
|
24 Aug 2006, 13:03
|
#9
|
No Alliance
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: England
Posts: 125
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
thats what the multi hunter channel on mIRC is for
__________________
How about i paste all my co-ords form previous rounds below, it might make me look more important??
or not
|
|
|
24 Aug 2006, 13:16
|
#10
|
Emperor
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: in front of a computer
Posts: 490
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy
I for one would like to have a gentlemens agreement (women included :P) that accusations should be only taken up with the MH team.
|
While it is a nice idea just like a "clean" war is a "nice" idea it has a inherent flaw which wont make it work.
PA is a war game. (Dis-)Information is part of war. You can take a war to the forums and discredit your enemy just like you can try to make your own alliance look much better publicly in advertisements or postings.
Former enemies of myself did admit that massive negative publicity campaigns DID harm their alliance because morality and activity went down among their own members and they got less new member requests due to it. It doesnt even matter if the negative publicity is ultimately true ("if you keep repeating a lie, people will start believing it") as long as part of the community does believe it.
Its dirty, its unfriendly, it might ruin some players fun to compete and play but it works and those are your "enemy" and its a war game. A gentleman agreement would only work till the next person realises how they can get an ingame advantage by breaking the agreement.
Its like continuing to bashing your enemies new members - it might even harm the game in the long run, but it does work.
IMHO it needs a policy/rule made from the forum admins or PA-Team because a gentleman agreement wont work just like it wouldnt work in the long run against bashing, spying, side-fencing, betrayal, secretly allying etc.
|
|
|
24 Aug 2006, 13:26
|
#11
|
PA Team
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 677
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
OMG remy they agree with you, call the news
Nah just kidding I agree too but he knows that since we talk a lot about stuff like this on priv server.
All i have to add to his remarks is the following.
Look at all those posts true the eyes of new players that are intrested in the game or just started it.
It gives a very negative view on the game and that's not something we need in a time where we are looking to get new players to start playing the game.
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Have a nice Day-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
#multihunters
----------------------------
Former HC - Conspiracy Theory -
----------------------------
- Proud to have served as -
- High Commander and CEO -
[]LCH[] ...lets change history
----------------------------
|
|
|
24 Aug 2006, 16:54
|
#12
|
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 846
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
well as long as the mh team doesnt do their job there will always be gossip and rumours.
but why cant it be open who cares if allies get hurt then a cheater is closed, show the coords and why the bastard was closed so everyone know..
|
|
|
24 Aug 2006, 21:51
|
#13
|
Its time to roll the dice
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The barn
Posts: 876
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
I agree if its cheating accusations without proof. If there is proof it should be made public as many ppl in this game have no trust in the work the MH'ers does or at least their objectivity on a case to case basis.
__________________
Real life peon.
|
|
|
24 Aug 2006, 22:27
|
#14
|
Dirte
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,573
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Propaganda is a huge part of warfare.
|
|
|
25 Aug 2006, 00:27
|
#15
|
Avenger of Calamari
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 939
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
well as long as the mh team doesnt do their job there will always be gossip and rumours.
but why cant it be open who cares if allies get hurt then a cheater is closed, show the coords and why the bastard was closed so everyone know..
|
While I do understand why you'd want it... cheaters getting what they deserve etc. What happens when the person really is innocent? And did *nothing* wrong? Their name is now dragged through the mud, which may harm future dealings with various alliances who don't want to be associated with a 'cheater'.
Kind of the electronic equivelant of a newspaper saying "so and so is a murderer!" and then being found innocent.
|
|
|
25 Aug 2006, 01:06
|
#16
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Norway
Posts: 367
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Squildy then you should do your work good before posting any info on the prick who cheated
__________________
NewDawn - Soaring where angels fear to fly
|
|
|
25 Aug 2006, 05:09
|
#17
|
Avenger of Calamari
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 939
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Good work is for the weak!
|
|
|
25 Aug 2006, 07:59
|
#18
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,663
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
The one gentleman agreement I'd like everyone to respect would be to stop cheating.
But as in real life you'll have cheaters who will always deny it as long they can, knowing that the reasonable doubt is always playing for them... and there's enough grey zones in PA rules to allow that. For 1 cheater being caught, how many go away with it ?
__________________
<smith> You're 15 and full of shit.
<Furious_George> no, im 22
|
|
|
25 Aug 2006, 11:20
|
#19
|
BlueTuba
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,339
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
I agree if its cheating accusations without proof. If there is proof it should be made public as many ppl in this game have no trust in the work the MH'ers does or at least their objectivity on a case to case basis.
|
This is pretty much my position (and the AD position)
__________________
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
|
|
|
25 Aug 2006, 13:52
|
#20
|
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oban, Scotland
Posts: 84
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
couldn't agree with you more Remy, PA players are among the worst ppl for gossiping that I know. It's not really anyone elses business apart from the planet that's accused and the multihunters.
__________________
[email protected]
r3 - r5 - Gondor alliance
r14 - Orbit member
r15 - Orbit DC
r15 - r17 - Orbit HC
r17 - r19 - Insurrection HC
|
|
|
25 Aug 2006, 14:00
|
#21
|
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 846
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ptraci
couldn't agree with you more Remy, PA players are among the worst ppl for gossiping that I know. It's not really anyone elses business apart from the planet that's accused and the multihunters.
|
wrong wrong wrong
if the cheater who gained ships and roids from farming/donations use it to get upper hand and roid other ppl with it the guys who lost out to a cheater are all within their rights to know who screwed up their rounds
this is most common in the start of the round and if he can attack a target with stolen ships that he should have or could build with farmed roids it affects the target kinda hard.
stop this pussy around with the cheaters asap
edit: im suprised that this is the attitude the useless support guys uphold on the matter O.o
|
|
|
25 Aug 2006, 14:28
|
#22
|
Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Cheating affects us all, especially when it's the top players doing it. Naming and shaming is the way to go, even more so when it's past round winners.
__________________
Finally free!
|
|
|
25 Aug 2006, 15:49
|
#23
|
[Vision]
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 897
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Cheating affects us all, especially when it's the top players doing it. Naming and shaming is the way to go, even more so when it's past round winners.
|
couldn't agree more. I would still love to see a public board with all planet coords & nicks including the offence and what action was taken (only planets that have found to be in violation of the EULA by the MH) and the date it was done (this list will stay 'forever'). This would for one help the MH team as they can publicly show what they do while at the same time making cheating less interesting as i think that (well)known players don't want to end up on that list.
It will also stop most of the unfounded accussations as ppl can actually see what happen instead of guessing what might have been done. I certainly don't agree to the whole privacy matter of the planets who have been found to violate the rules, as it is something that affects all players and thus should be known to all.
__________________
[Vision] in a lost dream, contributing to The 5th Element at present
|
|
|
25 Aug 2006, 16:21
|
#24
|
Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Cheating affects us all, especially when it's the top players doing it. Naming and shaming is the way to go, even more so when it's past round winners.
|
Yes, defintely. To an extent.
I think the case Remy is refering to, is when a certain alliance high commander started ranting on the representatives channel about a member of a top alliance cheating. The evidence this person had to back up was futile at best, and came up to "it's facts because I know" -statement. Randomly running around "shaming" people of cheating is not a polite habit at any level. Especially if you're not prepared to back up your claims with, for example, solid scan/log evidence of this cheating, but only with your "belief of being correct".
__________________
"Oh, wretched race of a day, children of chance and misery, why do ye compel me to say to you what it were most expedient for you not to hear? What is best of all is for ever beyond your reach: not to be born, not to be, to be nothing. The second best for you, however, is soon to die". Silenus, tutor to Dionysos, speaking to King Midas.
|
|
|
25 Aug 2006, 16:54
|
#25
|
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Swansea
Posts: 798
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
who was it Keiz ?
who were they accusing ?
__________________
In Elysium till the end.
Former [1up]
Current [Spore]
Returned under the IRC nick BenSwansea
|
|
|
25 Aug 2006, 18:21
|
#26
|
Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Yes, defintely. To an extent.
I think the case Remy is refering to, is when a certain alliance high commander started ranting on the representatives channel about a member of a top alliance cheating. The evidence this person had to back up was futile at best, and came up to "it's facts because I know" -statement. Randomly running around "shaming" people of cheating is not a polite habit at any level. Especially if you're not prepared to back up your claims with, for example, solid scan/log evidence of this cheating, but only with your "belief of being correct".
|
So you're using a conversation from a private IRC channel to demand changes to both public IRC channels and the PA forums? Wonderful way to back up an argument there.
You're not going to get a gentleman's agreement out of this, I just don't see it happening. One retard does not equal this level of censorship being proposed.
__________________
Finally free!
|
|
|
25 Aug 2006, 18:35
|
#27
|
Up The Hatters!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
I dont see why we cant name and shame the persons getting caught for cheating so that persons who may cross their paths in the future might have an early warning against persons who have been closed for cheating in the past.
This should ofc only count for thoose who have been closed and remained closed throughout the round.
__________________
Planetarion veteran
|
|
|
26 Aug 2006, 07:24
|
#28
|
.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,382
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
it's only cheating if you get caught am i right or am i rite
|
|
|
26 Aug 2006, 10:39
|
#29
|
Emperor
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: in front of a computer
Posts: 490
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
it's only cheating if you get caught am i right or am i rite
|
Actually this supposed "gentlemans agreement" would mean "its only cheating if you get caught with enough evidence by officials (and they think it was worth enough to ban you for the rest of the round)".
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
One retard does not equal this level of censorship being proposed.
|
You should know better how "censorship" is defined
|
|
|
26 Aug 2006, 12:47
|
#30
|
Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
You should know better how "censorship" is defined
|
I tried very very hard to understand what you meant by this, but failed.
The AD rule is that "Cheat posts will not be accepted unless they contain evidence and generally, multihunters close planets, not AD mods."
This was recently demonstrated by lokken's closure of the "Allegations and Rumours" threads that were posted on AD a few days ago. They alleged cheating while offering no evidence to back those claims up.
What remy is proposing is no discussion of cheating or the cheaters themselves. I don't believe this is a sensible approach. I believe that it can be correct to publicise cheating at appropriate times (such as elviz's recent closure). Should this thread never have been made?
__________________
Finally free!
|
|
|
26 Aug 2006, 13:22
|
#31
|
PA Ancient
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ventnor, Isle Of Wight
Posts: 1,060
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
I think perhaps people should be name and shamed, but only of course after the MH has spoken to the individual and decided to keep them closed based on the evidence and their appeal. I think posting publicaly straight after a closure without an appeal would be pretty pointless.
__________________
Played: Round 1-13. PA Team: Round 13-17. The Return: Round 18-19. PA Team: Round 20. Return.. Again: Round 21-37 Retired: Round 38 Returned: Round 39-45 Retired: Round 45 Returned: Round: 56
Ever been attacked by a p3nguin? You get left a bit black and white!
p3nguin Founder
|
|
|
27 Aug 2006, 04:06
|
#32
|
Black Power MotherF*ckas!
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: JAPAN
Posts: 1,812
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
when is elvis getting deleted.
__________________
Ascendancy
When Doves Cry
|
|
|
27 Aug 2006, 06:24
|
#33
|
Bona Fide Jesus Freak
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: In the Word of the Lord
Posts: 765
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
I think the forums are the perfect place for rumors of cheating. If you have real proof you take it to #multihunters ASAP but if you don't go spread a rumor on the forums and maybe some proof will surface.
By the way it might be helpful to find cheaters if there was a reward for ratting out your Multi, account sharing, or farming buddies. Maybe a system to earn game credits or something.
__________________
Matthew 24:9 (New International Version) "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me."
Who the hell gave you posrep you christian fundamentalist?
god is bollox, mkay and you are not discussing it
You're not the voice of Christianity di**head.
CT R22-20, [1up] R18-16, TGV R15,
The Illuminati - [NoS] - R14-13
|
|
|
27 Aug 2006, 07:34
|
#34
|
PA Ancient
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Ventnor, Isle Of Wight
Posts: 1,060
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
I think the forums are the perfect place for rumors of cheating. If you have real proof you take it to #multihunters ASAP but if you don't go spread a rumor on the forums and maybe some proof will surface.
By the way it might be helpful to find cheaters if there was a reward for ratting out your Multi, account sharing, or farming buddies. Maybe a system to earn game credits or something.
|
Surely the fact of knowing somone whos cheating is playing with an unfair advantage over yourself would cause you to report it without having to give out rewards.
__________________
Played: Round 1-13. PA Team: Round 13-17. The Return: Round 18-19. PA Team: Round 20. Return.. Again: Round 21-37 Retired: Round 38 Returned: Round 39-45 Retired: Round 45 Returned: Round: 56
Ever been attacked by a p3nguin? You get left a bit black and white!
p3nguin Founder
|
|
|
27 Aug 2006, 10:00
|
#35
|
Emperor
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: in front of a computer
Posts: 490
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I tried very very hard to understand what you meant by this, but failed.
|
The legal definition of "censorship" is very specific. Remy is supposing a gentlemans agreement which doesnt include any censorship at all because there is no higher entity like the government, the owner of this portal or even the forum mods who enforces it. I could continue to post cheating accusations all day no matter if this "gentlemans agreement" exists or not :O
At most such a agreement could lead to self-censoring among those who agreed to it. But only for as long as they decide for themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
Surely the fact of knowing somone whos cheating is playing with an unfair advantage over yourself would cause you to report it without having to give out rewards.
|
Not necessarily if they are playing in your own alliance and therefore you gain an advantage from it.
Last edited by Ramihyn; 27 Aug 2006 at 10:06.
|
|
|
27 Aug 2006, 13:30
|
#36
|
Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
So you're using a conversation from a private IRC channel to demand changes to both public IRC channels and the PA forums? Wonderful way to back up an argument there.
You're not going to get a gentleman's agreement out of this, I just don't see it happening. One retard does not equal this level of censorship being proposed.
|
This is why I wasn't backing up the argument, I was *agreeing* that the "shaming" is a decent (Couldn't come up with a better word) way of the community working it's toll against cheaters, but there's some people who take the "shaming" to an extent where it's no longer "shaming cheaters" but witch hunt based on personal feelings and vendetta. When there's evidence around of cheating, it's definately "good" for the community to put pressure on it through "shaming", but when the evidence is at best mostly not available (claimed to exist but not disclosed to people), and of the available parts futile (based on emotions, and vain claims), it gets a little pathetic.
It's like I'd be running around with a serious shaming agenda on my mind claiming furball cheats just because I don't like furball and he's definately a cheater and the fact that he moderates a PA forum just backs up his cheating he's definately in the inner circle of PA-team involved cheaters. I have tons of evidence, IRC logs and all, but I definately won't show them, you can ask them from another person too, who won't show them either. This is the point where the "good sides of shaming" become the "bad sides of gossip and witch hunt", spite being a public or private channel. And what place, would, eventually, be a better place to propage than a channel where a lot of alliance leaders sit in? Obviously a good way to make yourself appear ridiculous too.
edit.
so you won't misunderstand it - this is WHY I quoted you saying "naming and shaming is the way to go" and said "Yes, definately - to an extent".
__________________
"Oh, wretched race of a day, children of chance and misery, why do ye compel me to say to you what it were most expedient for you not to hear? What is best of all is for ever beyond your reach: not to be born, not to be, to be nothing. The second best for you, however, is soon to die". Silenus, tutor to Dionysos, speaking to King Midas.
|
|
|
27 Aug 2006, 19:58
|
#37
|
Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
|
Re: Cheating accusations - not in the open
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
This is why I wasn't backing up the argument, I was *agreeing* that the "shaming" is a decent (Couldn't come up with a better word) way of the community working it's toll against cheaters, but there's some people who take the "shaming" to an extent where it's no longer "shaming cheaters" but witch hunt based on personal feelings and vendetta. When there's evidence around of cheating, it's definately "good" for the community to put pressure on it through "shaming", but when the evidence is at best mostly not available (claimed to exist but not disclosed to people), and of the available parts futile (based on emotions, and vain claims), it gets a little pathetic.
It's like I'd be running around with a serious shaming agenda on my mind claiming furball cheats just because I don't like furball and he's definately a cheater and the fact that he moderates a PA forum just backs up his cheating he's definately in the inner circle of PA-team involved cheaters. I have tons of evidence, IRC logs and all, but I definately won't show them, you can ask them from another person too, who won't show them either. This is the point where the "good sides of shaming" become the "bad sides of gossip and witch hunt", spite being a public or private channel. And what place, would, eventually, be a better place to propage than a channel where a lot of alliance leaders sit in? Obviously a good way to make yourself appear ridiculous too.
edit.
so you won't misunderstand it - this is WHY I quoted you saying "naming and shaming is the way to go" and said "Yes, definately - to an extent".
|
I don't disagree with you. I get the feeling that I mis-interpreted the post of yours that I quoted in my post, and so for that I do apologise. At the same time, I'm not sure that I was clear enough when I supported 'naming and shaming' - it can, of course, only be effectively carried out by PA-Team, not members of alliances who naturally have a vested interest in seeing their opponents' cheating exposed.
Nevertheless, it still applies to all those who think that a gentleman's agreeement is a viable option. Self-censorship is impossible while censorship from above will not be extended - we have a successful rule already in place.
__________________
Finally free!
|
|
|
|
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:08.
| |