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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 20:00   #1
Tomkat
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Truth

I had this argument with JBG (and a couple of others) on #forums a week or so ago.

If enough people believe something, then it becomes "truth" (without getting mixed up in semantics and definitions)

Take for example a simple fact we all know is false, such as "the russians landed on the moon first". If all schools educate their children in this, and all literature saying anything to the contrary is changed, then within 2-3 generations people will happily accept that. It becomes the truth.

Game just found this article on the internet (thanks Game!) where someone has tried to prove this by altering a wiki page.

I can't remember what JBG's exact point was, but he disagreed and said that even if enough people believed it and it was taught and educated to the next generation, it still wasn't truth.

My point is simply that the truth is actually relatively easy to change, within reason. The internet both supports and refutes this - it's harder to control factual literature that exists on the internet, but it also means people can post false information and pass it off as fact.
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 20:11   #2
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Re: Truth

Human beings can never truly know anything in a pure form. Scientists can perform experiments and extrapolate what should happen but not what will happen. this is because of (to quote Donald Rhumsfeld) 'unknown unknowns'. Something might that we are as yet unable to observe could effect the experiment and cause a completely different result.

Given the fragility of the brain and the flaws in memory recall (if not in the storing of memory itself) even events which you have witnessed can be forgotten or recalled incorrectly.

So whilst the objective truth of history cannot be altered by man the subjective history (which is what we use) can be doctored.

Man never know truth, he can only observe and attempt to minimise innacuracy in what he reports, but what he reports can be misinterpreted.

For example, if I woke up tomorrow and knew the meaning of life and then wrote it down and posted it here everyone here would interpret what I have said in a completey different way.
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 20:14   #3
Tomkat
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Re: Truth

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Human beings can never truly know anything in a pure form. Scientists can perform experiments and extrapolate what should happen but not what will happen. this is because of (to quote Donald Rhumsfeld) 'unknown unknowns'. Something might that we are as yet unable to observe could effect the experiment and cause a completely different result.
Only if we're talking about science (which we're not).

For instance, I know that Tony Blair is currently the Prime Minister. It doesn't need scientific proof.

If the history books were changed to make it look like the Conservatives have always been in power (and then it was believed by the majority/all of the population), then that would become the truth.
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 20:14   #4
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Re: Truth

Try and read at least one book by karl popper before you die.
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 20:15   #5
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Re: Truth

You can't make something truth just by telling someone that it is, unless you believe there is no external world and all that matters is our perception of it. Which, due to the way that we interact with it and it interacts with us, is pretty silly.

To go from another direction, when people believed the Sun orbited the Earth it didn't make it so. It was taught to people for centuries, virtually every person (educated or otherwise) believed it, but it didn't make it true (as far as we know!).
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 20:16   #6
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Re: Truth

You are entirely correct, Tomkat. I think what the argument was about last week was that nod/jbg et al thought you were ADVOCATING this phenomenom.

Oh, and if we want to talk about lies being told for so long they are accepted as truth, look no further than religion
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 20:23   #7
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
To go from another direction, when people believed the Earth orbited the Sun it didn't make it so. It was taught to people for centuries, virtually every person (educated or otherwise) believed it, but it didn't make it true (as far as we know!).
You're talking about science again, which is about proof and accepting hypotheses, not truth
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 20:23   #8
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Only if we're talking about science (which we're not).

For instance, I know that Tony Blair is currently the Prime Minister. It doesn't need scientific proof.
You don't know this as an objective fact. You may only believe this because you have brain damage. People with altzeheimers may think it's 1927 but it doesn't make it true.
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 20:28   #9
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
You don't know this as an objective fact. You may only believe this because you have brain damage. People with altzeheimers may think it's 1927 but it doesn't make it true.
Sorry, I thought it'd be taken for granted I obviously didn't include mentally damaged/disabled people in this theory
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 20:39   #10
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Sorry, I thought it'd be taken for granted I obviously didn't include mentally damaged/disabled people in this theory
Ok.

You have observed that tony Blair is PM. All knowledge is based on observation, whther this is in the form of a words in a book, on a tv show or in a picture. You see something and find the meaning. You see tony Blair on the news and they call him the Prime Minister you accept this as a fact. You believe this to be the truth but there is no way of proving it.

At the end of the day it comes down to trust. Do you trust everything you observe is designed in the way to most accuratly represent the objective world? Is this even possible?

this could all be one big matrix-esque simulation and it could all be fake. If you saw one piece of evidence that contridicted everything that said you matrix world was real what would you believe?

You can trust people are telling the truth and you can look at all the evidence that survives then make your mind up. If all the evidence to the contrary is destroyed then it becomes accepted as the truth and will have the effect on future generations as if it did happen. Of course here I'm not talking about someone saying there was a nuclear holocaust as that would leave physical traces etc...

the truth and a lie are the same as neither one reflects reality.
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 21:23   #11
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Re: Truth

Actually the Russians did land on the moon first. It's just that all possible histories that could have had us arrive at this moment summed in such a way that the experiencd/remembered history is the one where they didn't.
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 21:49   #12
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Re: Truth

as a russian I can state following:
Russians did not land on te moon first. Otherwise russians would know about it.

We did, however, launch first man into space. (and maybe even a monkey, i remember watchign some old ass documentaries about it some long ass time ago... I dont remember if we were the first ones tho...)

------------------

Re:topic.

Someone said truth is only relative human oppinion.

My oppinion is that EXACTLY of tomkat's
If something is taken as a given, over time it becomes truth.
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 22:04   #13
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Re: Truth

What is true and what people believe to be true are not one and the same thing.

JBJ was right.

That's the truth.
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 22:13   #14
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Re: Truth

[quote=Mighteh]We did, however, launch first man into space. (and maybe even a monkey, i remember watchign some old ass documentaries about it some long ass time ago... I dont remember if we were the first ones tho...)
QUOTE]

Dog. Laika, November 1957.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2367681.stm
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 22:15   #15
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
What is true and what people believe to be true are not one and the same thing.
I agree.

What is true is fact and what people believe to be true is an opinion. Just like the Science and Religion argument.
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 23:01   #16
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
What is true is fact and what people believe to be true is an opinion. Just like the Science and Religion argument.
I said in the original post "let's not get caught up in definitions"
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 23:17   #17
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I need to remember that one. From now on I shall put at the beginning of threads, "lets not get into disagreeing with T&F."
I think you'll find that at the beginning of my thread it says "Don't copy TomKat's ideas".

....Wait

....It doesn't?

Edit time!
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Unread 2 Aug 2006, 23:36   #18
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
What is true and what people believe to be true are not one and the same thing.
surely when there is no other measure of truth other than what people hold to be true, the truth becomes simply the most common opinion.
what i'm saying is unless you (or anyone else) can present a way of finding a pure truth outside of the realms of man, which is not subject to change based upon opinions or perspective, truth will always be what people believe, because there is no other way to class what is true.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 00:08   #19
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Re: Truth

well what if that opinion was held to be the same by everyone, such as the value of plancks constant. if every member of the scientific community decided they wanted it to be something else, and simply started using another number, that number would be plancks constant.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 00:16   #20
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Re: Truth

Does this mean that if we all believe hard enough that tomkat still has cancer it will come back?



Please be so :(((


Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
well what if that opinion was held to be the same by everyone, such as the value of plancks constant. if every member of the scientific community decided they wanted it to be something else, and simply started using another number, that number would be plancks constant.
This is just nomenclature though.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 00:28   #21
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Re: Truth

You all seem to be arguing different variations of the same thing while making the same mistake. Truth is based on observed fact which in turn links it inescapably to time.

In the medeval ages in Europe*, the Sun orbited the Earth. That was the truth. The idea of anything else was completely laughable, and didn't fit the observed evidence.

Since 1497, the Earth has orbited the Sun. That is the truth. The idea of anything else is completely laughable, and doesn't fit the observed evidence.

My point is that a truth is only true at a given time. In 50 years time when we've unified time, space, gravity and electromagnetism, what is currently true about a lot of things is going to look pretty ****ing stupid. I've been focusing purely on science but it works just as well for anything else.


* The Indians and most of the Islamic world had this down a good 1000 years before us Europeans did. Oh well. You win some you lose some.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 00:32   #22
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Re: Truth

IF YOU ALL DON'T READ AT LEAST ONE ESSAY BY KARL POPPER I'M GOING TO START KILLING PEOPLE.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 00:32   #23
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Re: Truth

Let me know where, and I'll film the rampage.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 00:34   #24
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
You all seem to be arguing different variations of the same thing while making the same mistake. Truth is based on observed fact which in turn links it inescapably to time.

In the medeval ages in Europe*, the Sun orbited the Earth. That was the truth. The idea of anything else was completely laughable, and didn't fit the observed evidence.

Since 1497, the Earth has orbited the Sun. That is the truth. The idea of anything else is completely laughable, and doesn't fit the observed evidence.

My point is that a truth is only true at a given time. In 50 years time when we've unified time, space, gravity and electromagnetism, what is currently true about a lot of things is going to look pretty ****ing stupid. I've been focusing purely on science but it works just as well for anything else.


* The Indians and most of the Islamic world had this down a good 1000 years before us Europeans did. Oh well. You win some you lose some.
What people consider to be the truth does not make it objectivley true and doesn't change the world, just our perception of it and our reactions to it.

If someone genuinely believed they could walk on water they would drown. their actions would have been altered by this 'truth' but the emperical world would not.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 00:41   #25
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I had this argument with JBG (and a couple of others) on #forums a week or so ago.

If enough people believe something, then it becomes "truth" (without getting mixed up in semantics and definitions)

Take for example a simple fact we all know is false, such as "the russians landed on the moon first". If all schools educate their children in this, and all literature saying anything to the contrary is changed, then within 2-3 generations people will happily accept that. It becomes the truth.

Game just found this article on the internet (thanks Game!) where someone has tried to prove this by altering a wiki page.

I can't remember what JBG's exact point was, but he disagreed and said that even if enough people believed it and it was taught and educated to the next generation, it still wasn't truth.

My point is simply that the truth is actually relatively easy to change, within reason. The internet both supports and refutes this - it's harder to control factual literature that exists on the internet, but it also means people can post false information and pass it off as fact.
you are both right.

jbg is just more intelligent than you.

why the thread?
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 00:44   #26
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
why the thread?
To annoy you. Why else do I wake up in the morning?
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 01:09   #27
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
To annoy you. Why else do I wake up in the morning?
i certainly find the fact that you open your eyes displeasing.

(bye bye cancer boy)

(I'm missing you already)
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 01:16   #28
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
To go from another direction, when people believed the Earth orbited the Sun it didn't make it so.
****ing heliocentrists. I'm glad those days are long gone, it's back to calculating epicycles for me!
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 01:18   #29
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
****ing heliocentrists. I'm glad those days are long gone, it's back to calculating epicycles for me!
you should focus on not de-grading.

though lord alone knows who you think will employ you ...

(money = food)
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 01:24   #30
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Truth is based on observed fact which in turn links it inescapably to time.
There's a distinction between empirical truth (which is what you're talking about) and actual truth.

To assume that the former is equivilent to the latter requires, ironically enough, certain assumptions about the nature of the universe which are, to the best of my knowledge, empirically incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
My point is that a truth is only true at a given time. In 50 years time when we've unified time, space, gravity and electromagnetism, what is currently true about a lot of things is going to look pretty ****ing stupid.
That is unlikely to be the case. The sciences have been, by and large, improving in terms of the quality of observation. By and large, the science of 100, 200 years ago (or more in some fields) is perfectly accurate when measured on a scale under which the theories were developed.

The mockery due to the geocentrists is because they plowed on for a not inconsiderable number of years in full knowledge that their model was inaccurate, with ludicrous attempts to staple a solution on. Believe it or not, that's not how science works these days.

The laughable things, in 50 years or whatever, may well be String Theory and its proponents; however, as that's not accepted science, or even testable, yet, it's hardly a fair comparison.

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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 01:26   #31
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
you should focus on not de-grading.
Given that I passed my tripos exams and it's now the vac, I don't think there's much focusing on anything required until the start of Michaelmas. As one of the courses next year that I'm interested in (although will inevitably have to drop for some variety of physics) is actually related to this topic, some may suggest that I'm doing more than is required.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 01:29   #32
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
some may suggest that I'm doing more than is required.
one can always find a fool to say what one wants when it is necessary to lie to one's self
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 01:33   #33
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
one can always find a fool to say what one wants when it is necessary to lie to one's self
Don't say that, I invented that.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 07:27   #34
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
****ing heliocentrists. I'm glad those days are long gone, it's back to calculating epicycles for me!
oops :/

edit: I've edited it now, therefore the revised version becomes the truth!

edit2: everyone who quoted me please delete your posts so we can return to the sane world where I don't make ridiculously huge mistakes

(otherwise known as the truth)
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 12:27   #35
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Re: Truth

The Japanese textbooks have to be the most famous case of this.

Basically the Japanese Texbooks Specifically played down Japan's occupation of China from 1931 to 1945 but most specifically the Rape of Nanking (Nanking Massacre circa 1938?). The rape as I like to call it resulted in the deaths of about300,000 Chinese. Many civilians were hacked to death, and thousands of women were raped which was nice.

The Japanese textbooks also dont mention the sex slaves which were brought into Japan to service the young and old horny japanese.

I believe the textbooks also fail to mention what part Japan played in Korea which was once again comfort women, raping and pillaging.

Now the funny thing is the Japanese government knows this happened and they feel guilty. This guilt meant they have given South Korea and China Billions to well try and keep them quiet. Its the people of Japan who are ignorant.

If they are told from day one Black is White, they will believe Black is white. Unfortunately the text books are examples of how we are lied to on a daily basis and how we believe something purely because we have been told so.

The most recent example in my mind is the frosties kid. You know the kid who says "They're gonna taste great" etc. Rumours have been flying around both in my social circle, workplace and on the internet that he had commited suicide. These rumours after a bit of research seem to be untrue. In fact he is healthy and lives in South Africa.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 13:23   #36
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I said in the original post "let's not get caught up in definitions"
But your whole argument is semantics and definitions, namely that youre defining 'truth' to mean 'whatever people believe', which isnt what that word normally means in English (see: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/truth )

Its like I were to say "trees have 4 legs, because I'm using the word 'tree' to mean those pink animals with curly tails you get on farms"
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 15:06   #37
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
But your whole argument is semantics and definitions, namely that youre defining 'truth' to mean 'whatever people believe', which isnt what that word normally means in English (see: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/truth )

Its like I were to say "trees have 4 legs, because I'm using the word 'tree' to mean those pink animals with curly tails you get on farms"
"a statement accepted...as true"?
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 15:08   #38
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
"a statement accepted...as true"?
I pointed that out myself last night. I think it's rather marvellous that our dictionary contains two definitions of the same word that aren't identical.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 15:26   #39
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I pointed that out myself last night. I think it's rather marvellous that our dictionary contains two definitions of the same word that aren't identical.
well, dictionaries are kind of a confusing exception to this whole thing. whether people believe the earth revolves around the sun or not, the 'fact' is the same. but if everyone believes that word X means Y, then word X does mean Y, nevermind what it meant yesterday.

e.g., it may right now be a factoid that factoid means "a piece of trivia, a random fact". but if eventually everyone thinks that, then that being the definition of factoid will be...a factoid, I guess:/

anyway.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 15:38   #40
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
well, dictionaries are kind of a confusing exception to this whole thing. whether people believe the earth revolves around the sun or not, the 'fact' is the same. but if everyone believes that word X means Y, then word X does mean Y, nevermind what it meant yesterday.
Yeah but considering
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
If enough people believe something, then it becomes "truth"
it seems clear that he's talking about concepts and not words. Which is confusing unless he's denying the existence of objective reality. I have no real objection to people who do, I think s|k does so and I've certainly done it from time to time to amuse myself in certain discussions, but we need to be clear about what we're talking.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 16:13   #41
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Yeah but considering it seems clear that he's talking about concepts and not words. Which is confusing unless he's denying the existence of objective reality. I have no real objection to people who do, I think s|k does so and I've certainly done it from time to time to amuse myself in certain discussions, but we need to be clear about what we're talking.
notably,

if enough people believe this statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
If enough people believe something, then it becomes "truth"
then it becomes true.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 16:14   #42
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
notably,

if enough people believe this statement:then it becomes true.
Reverse order cretan paradox or something innit?



Edit: "This statement is true."
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Last edited by JonnyBGood; 3 Aug 2006 at 16:26.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 17:00   #43
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Reverse order cretan paradox or something innit?



Edit: "This statement is true."
that reminds me of something i've been wondering, and wanted a second opinion on.

is "What question is also its own answer?"

a proper answer to the question

"What question is also its own answer?"

?

i've got it narrowed down to either it definitely is or isn't.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 17:30   #44
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Re: Truth

You want the truth?
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 18:16   #45
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
that reminds me of something i've been wondering, and wanted a second opinion on.

is "What question is also its own answer?"

a proper answer to the question

"What question is also its own answer?"

?

i've got it narrowed down to either it definitely is or isn't.
I'm thinking no, proper answers can't finish with a question mark can they, but self-referentialism has so many delightful paradoxes.

Personally I'm rather fond of "if the meanings of "true" and "false" were switched, then this sentence wouldn't be false."
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 18:55   #46
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
e.g., it may right now be a factoid that factoid means "a piece of trivia, a random fact". but if eventually everyone thinks that, then that being the definition of factoid will be...a factoid, I guess:/
A factoid is technically something which appears to be a fact but isn't.

See: Humanoid, Cuboid.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 19:28   #47
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Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
A factoid is technically something which appears to be a fact but isn't.

See: Humanoid, Cuboid.
let me clarify my statement.

factoid:
"refers to a piece of information that appears to be reliable or accurate, as from being repeated so often that people assume it is true."

"Factoid has since developed a second meaning, that of a brief, somewhat interesting fact,"

the newer definition 'appears to be accurate' (though not to one so perceptive as yourself) 'from being repeated so often that so often that (some) people assume it is true'.

therefore, the second definition being the definition of 'factoid' qualifies as a 'factoid' per the first definition.

obviously this was a terribly confusing example of the general "words mean whatever people think they mean" principle i was arguing, but that's the fun.
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Unread 3 Aug 2006, 19:38   #48
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Lightbulb Re: Truth

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
that reminds me of something i've been wondering, and wanted a second opinion on.

is "What question is also its own answer?"

a proper answer to the question

"What question is also its own answer?"

?

i've got it narrowed down to either it definitely is or isn't.


"More" correct answer"

A redundant one
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