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6 Jul 2005, 01:13
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#1
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Up The Hatters!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
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Worries about the new stats
Well, now that I have gotten a taste of the new stats, been playing in the beta and doing some tests with the race I thought looked interesting: Terran i thought I was going to make a post about what I have seen, and tried.
Terrans: They seemed interesting at first. Their DE can take out Caths easy, that prolly means focusing only on DE because of the possibilities of def being there. BS seems okay against Xans, Broadswords kinda like feels like XPK did last round, but for one vital change, this time you cant hurt a xan with attacking with BS only. Since Xan seems very good deffers, BS attacks on Xans isnt highly recommended.
possible tactics for Terrans with new stats: Focus on getting alot of DE. DE will be your main hit fleet.
Downside for Terrans: Alot actually. Defence against Cath Co will be hard to get. Since your attack target will mainly be cath's you will get trouble if they retal with their CO fleet. The gryhon is abit too expensive to cover completly against the cath co.
Xans as usual walk all over you with their FI fleet, the new stats only make it more possible for them to attack you with a fi/co fleet. You will also get trouble against their FR fleet since they now as your main hope against FR is in your attack fleet. We all know how badly Syrens fare against xan's bombers, and they still do.
Ziks: abit easier to defend against. Ziks need to combine to attack you with FR as your Syrens kicks ass. Their battleship fleet is more of a worry. Again, your best defence against a possible attack combination lies in your main attack fleet. Thus leaving u very open for attacks from ziks who are able to do 1 of two things: either know you are attacking because of ingal/alliance, or newscan you.
Terrans vs Terrans: Here your best option is to attack with BS. But since the BS is abit slow you might get def against you and there is always the BYOF option.
Overall: Terran is with theese stats a very difficult race to play. You will get trouble from the start if you dont have pegs to protect against Xans.. But Xans can easely kick you if they build some.
Will update with the rest of the races tomorrow.
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Planetarion veteran
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6 Jul 2005, 11:25
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#2
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Pedantic hypocrite
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Back and to the left
Posts: 1,488
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Re: Worries about the new stats
I saw whatever set is currently up as stats and I laughed.
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I always wanted to be a dancer, but I could never get the shit off my shoes
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6 Jul 2005, 11:53
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#3
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Cherry Colored Funk
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: 4AD Label
Posts: 137
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Re: Worries about the new stats
Nah. Obviously, this is an early april fools' for xand fans.
C'mon statsmakers, this can't be true - admit the joke asap.
:P
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Soft as snow but warm inside
Penetrate you cannot hide
Feeling lost forever
Really need you
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6 Jul 2005, 16:43
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#4
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Pr0nstar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 495
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Re: Worries about the new stats
Just get some decent statmakers to do them.
PA-team, this really isnīt your field of expertise
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PROUD Chief Pimp of the only pr0nstars
Ascendancy - While you were trying, we were sleeping
(@Karmulian) i deffo got roided looking at my planets
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6 Jul 2005, 18:40
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#5
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hate us cuz they ain't us
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 80
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Re: Worries about the new stats
thanks
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SPAM - ICD - Virus - HR - EnTitY - NoS - G-II - Orbit - Innuendo - xVx - VGN - ODDR
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7 Jul 2005, 11:58
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#6
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Can't Touch This
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 26
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Re: Worries about the new stats
*sigh* should be another balanced round then
- cheers for the info Kargool, good post.
/me pos rep j00
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Simba|afkish
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7 Jul 2005, 12:15
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#7
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The Original Terran
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Afghan atm
Posts: 1,633
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Re: Worries about the new stats
/me changes his Terran for life signature
sick of being the most attacked planet in my galaxy. Not being the most attacked in gal for 4th round running.
Think I will decide in public beta first i guess. But its bending towards going Xan atm coz they always seem to be onto a winner with all them easy Terrans around with weak spots bigger than a paper bag.
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introduction-Gramma
The following is a list of problems found in various places throughout the manual and game. We love you Noah!
Written by Kloopy Wed Mar 16 22:06:43 2005
Retired just for a bit....
Proud to have been 1up, SiN, Wolfpack, Bluetuba and the leader of ARK.
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7 Jul 2005, 12:46
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#8
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Worries about the new stats
Stats have changed slightly since Kargool's post.
Personally, I think that:
Terran
De can hit Cath, sort of hit Zik, and can hit Terran with no Phoenix (heh).
Bs
Can hit Cath and Zik with Dragons, Xan with lots of Syrens (and Wyverns)
Cathaar
Co can hit Terran (though the Viper/Gryphon thing is interesting and lots of Gryphons are going to make it costly)
They can also hit low-scorpion Cathaar, Xan with no lancers, and Zikonians. Probably a weaker fleet.
Cruisers can hit Terran if they're willing to take losses vs Dragons
They can flak Scarabs, although Scarabs are quite efficient. Xans they can take on fine, and Zik fine.
Xan
Fi/co can hit Terran
Fi can hit Cath okish (flak vs beetles),
and Fi can hit Zik too.
Fr/De can hit Terran, sort of hit Cathaar (though Roaches become a problem, and Guardians are quite efficient), and can hit Zik. Can also hit other Xan if they wish to sacrifice Lancers.
Zik Fr can sort of hit Terrans, but mainly they're weaker than last round, with the anti co, fr, de steal ships are not same ETA, but they have kill ships that are able to make same ETA.
To be honest, this should be moved to the strategy discussion thread.
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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7 Jul 2005, 13:27
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#9
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.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,382
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Re: Worries about the new stats
To be honest, you should stop making one kill race inherently strong over the other.
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7 Jul 2005, 13:45
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#10
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Worries about the new stats
Which one would that be? I assume you meant Xan hitting Terran more than the other way around?
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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7 Jul 2005, 13:52
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#11
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The Original Terran
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Afghan atm
Posts: 1,633
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Re: Worries about the new stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Xan
Fi/co can hit Terran
Fi can hit Cath okish (flak vs beetles),
and Fi can hit Zik too.
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Like I said Xan get it good. First lot of ships out and fastest ships on the move the cheapest ships and the most targets.
Oh and a hard race to hit.
__________________
introduction-Gramma
The following is a list of problems found in various places throughout the manual and game. We love you Noah!
Written by Kloopy Wed Mar 16 22:06:43 2005
Retired just for a bit....
Proud to have been 1up, SiN, Wolfpack, Bluetuba and the leader of ARK.
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7 Jul 2005, 14:06
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#12
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,382
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Re: Worries about the new stats
Yeah I did. Terrans can't really viably roid xands with de at all, and they can only even consider doing so with BS when involving Syrens too -which ofcourse inevitably get killed so expensive roids.
Thing is, you need to sort some basic principles in the race roiding round robins:
Kill 1 > Kill 1 with taking losses for roids via roidfleet 1
Kill 1 > Kill 1 with taking losses for roids via roidfleet 2
Kill 1 > Emp with pure flak throughroidfleet 1
Kill 1 > Emp with involving a different class to kill a certain killship
Kill 1 > Kill 2 with roidfleet1
Kill 1 can't roid Kill 2 with roidfleet 2
Kill 1 > Steal with roidfleet 1 with involving 2 classes
Kill 1 > Steal with roidfleet 2 but has to take losses - stealers gain ships and such
Emp > Kill 1 with roidfleet 1
Emp > Kill 1 with roidfleet 2 but at losses - aka involves 2 classes & 2nd class has to be sacrified
Emp > Emp with losses with roidfleet 1
Emp > Emp with flakthrough with roidfleet 2
Emp > Kill 2 with roidfleet 1
Emp > Kill 2 but again needs 2 classes (but not the same ship needed to freeze the anti-roidfleet2 of Kill1)
Emp > Steal with roidfleet 1 but has to take losses - stealers gain ships and such
Emp > Steal with roidfleet 2 but has to take losses - stealers gain ships and such & maybe use 2 classes
Kill 2 can't roid Kill 1 with roidfleet 1
Kill 2 > Kill 1 with roidfleet 2
Kill 2 > Emp with flak through roidfleet 1 - but later on has to take losses with involvement of capital ships
Kill 2 > Emp with roidfleet 2 pure flak through
Kill 2 > Kill 2 with taking losses for roids via roidfleet 1
Kill 2 > Kill 2 with taking losses for roids via roidfleet 2
Kill 2 > Steal with roidfleet 1 but has to take losses - stealers gain ships and such
Kill 2 > Steal with roidfleet 1 with involving 2 classes
Steal > Kill 1 with roidfleet 1 by taking losses
Steal > Kill 2 with roidfleet 2 by equalizing losses by stealing anti-roidfleet2 ship
Steal > Emp with roidfleet 1 by equalizing losses by stealing anti-roidfleet1 ship
Steal > Emp with roidfleet 2 by pure flak through
ETC.. i'm too lazy to finish it off. you get the picture. it all links in together etc.
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7 Jul 2005, 14:39
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#13
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U've been Moderated
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: getting sex0red by pretty women
Posts: 1,510
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Re: Worries about the new stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah02
/me changes his Terran for life signature
sick of being the most attacked planet in my galaxy. Not being the most attacked in gal for 4th round running.
Think I will decide in public beta first i guess. But its bending towards going Xan atm coz they always seem to be onto a winner with all them easy Terrans around with weak spots bigger than a paper bag.
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/me coughs :P
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Titans forever and ever.
<Forest> i fuc*ing hate password sharers, i will log into macs bros account and get scans every 2 mins
<Tempestuous> cypher just happens to be the world's cutest creature
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7 Jul 2005, 15:02
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#14
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The Original Terran
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Afghan atm
Posts: 1,633
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Re: Worries about the new stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
/me coughs :P
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lol ok maybe in are gal you might have been attacked once or twice more than me but I still lost more roids than you
I was number 1 for losing them
__________________
introduction-Gramma
The following is a list of problems found in various places throughout the manual and game. We love you Noah!
Written by Kloopy Wed Mar 16 22:06:43 2005
Retired just for a bit....
Proud to have been 1up, SiN, Wolfpack, Bluetuba and the leader of ARK.
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7 Jul 2005, 16:30
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#15
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Up The Hatters!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
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Re: Worries about the new stats
I tried the stats with Xans also actually. They were quite interesteing. Their CO ships are the best ships I have seen in PA. But mostly only defensively. Both Sentinel and uhm. that Co hitting FR ships were very interesting and if you plan attack a xan with FI or FR, DONT. Their CO's will wipe the floor with you. A smart Xan has production on 5 and saves some resources to build himself defence ships when attacked. You can last along time with the initial attackfleet, especially against Terrans and Ziks.
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Planetarion veteran
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7 Jul 2005, 17:28
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#16
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.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,382
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Re: Worries about the new stats
btw change the stats and start all over with either the principles jester stated in the strategy forums or my own ones above, ty
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7 Jul 2005, 18:51
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#17
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Worries about the new stats
I made stats from the principles on Jesters SD post, and then grudgingly, over 2 weeks, changed them to have less and less steal and EMP for all races and finally none at all, because apparently that's what no one wants. I've had stats submitted, most of which have as many holes, if not more, than the current ones. As of tomorrow afternoon I have an 18 hour non-stop journey going on holiday, so when I'm not sleeping I'll see what I can come up with stats wise.
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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8 Jul 2005, 01:56
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#18
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The Nephilim
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 77
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Re: Worries about the new stats
Appocomaster, who cares. It's never going to make them all happy, let's just see how this one goes. And maybe next round we can do stealing, etc, and see if that makes everyone happy. It's not like you're going to find a perfect set of stats that will work from now on. That would be boring anyways
Thanks for the effort you're taking though.
Melesse
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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.
Sun Tzu
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8 Jul 2005, 03:36
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#19
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thinking, that's all.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 867
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Re: Worries about the new stats
It'd be a great disappointment if Stealing was left out, presumably only EMP etc has so far been cut?
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[1up], Ascendancy Events Organiser & eXilition HC
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8 Jul 2005, 03:41
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#20
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Worries about the new stats
Having talked repeately with some of the more active HC in the private HC/PA Team channel, and to a lot of people in the private beta channel, most of their opinions run along the lines of it being too different / other stats haven't been tried fairly / it might be fun for a speedgame but it shouldn't be in a real game / too unpredictable / other reasons so I think that we might not be having steal for all the races, despite my personal preference, for this round.
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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8 Jul 2005, 06:18
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#21
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Just like science!
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cabinet of the Glorious Leader
Posts: 158
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Re: Worries about the new stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Having talked repeately with some of the more active HC in the private HC/PA Team channel, and to a lot of people in the private beta channel, most of their opinions run along the lines of it being too different / other stats haven't been tried fairly / it might be fun for a speedgame but it shouldn't be in a real game / too unpredictable / other reasons so I think that we might not be having steal for all the races, despite my personal preference, for this round.
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Design by commitee at work, folks.
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Injelititis - Incompetance and jealousy interacting according to the formula I^3J^5
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8 Jul 2005, 06:20
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#22
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Worries about the new stats
No. While I've talked to lots of people to see their views on suggested improvements on the stats, I've been responsible for designing and adjusting the majority of the stats beta tested and available on the forums.
When I get told I'm not listening by many alliance HCs, one of whom then suggests maybe themselves and others should go play other games instead, I felt I didn't have much choice but to remove steal from the other races.
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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8 Jul 2005, 09:35
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#23
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 327
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Re: Worries about the new stats
hard position to be in. Dammed if you do somthing, dammed if you don't.
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Rocko
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8 Jul 2005, 12:04
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#24
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thinking, that's all.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 867
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Re: Worries about the new stats
Appoco, it's by no means impossible to find a reasonable balance with stealing as described. Maybe you should pull a xontas and tell them where to stick it, that you've already spent enough time on it to keep it.
Fundamentally there's nothing wrong with it and there's no sound reason for it to be held back given the promise and life it gives to the game later in the round.
In all honesty, i'd rather listen to an overwhelming majority within the community, than any Alliance HC that chooses to place influence on you as above. And I somewhat doubt many players in that position would gladly live without PA anyway.
If it's not done, we could certainly do with some feeling of "greater change" for R14 than minor Ship Class and rename based adjustments. I don't particularly want tire of the game a month in :\
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[1up], Ascendancy Events Organiser & eXilition HC
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8 Jul 2005, 12:53
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 327
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Re: Worries about the new stats
maybe try out the stealing in the speedgame/havoc at the end of the round,... so everyone can have a chance to try it out,.. then if people get behind it, it can be somthing to use for round 15,...
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Rocko
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8 Jul 2005, 13:13
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#26
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Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
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Re: Worries about the new stats
Personally I loved every race having stealing. Moreover, the people complaining about stealing are mainly those who haven't even played the private beta (yes, I know that it's restricted). Yet when this is alliance HCs, etc, throwing hissy-fits, then it's pretty damn selfish.
People are scared of change. This would have been a good change, and now we don't get it
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Finally free!
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8 Jul 2005, 13:19
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 327
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Re: Worries about the new stats
people should have ago at their alliance HC's,.. and those in the beta.
Those are the ones that are stopping this from happening,.. there the ones in the beta,.. Appocomaster is trying his best to appease, while the silent majority suddenly start to say they like it.
Where are the people saying they dont want the stealing ships in every race now?
Where were the people who wanted stealing ships earlier when those agasint it were hurling abuse about it,...?????
but hey,...
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Rocko
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8 Jul 2005, 13:40
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#28
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thinking, that's all.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 867
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Re: Worries about the new stats
Tell you what mate, if they're at all serious about "not playing." Tell them to satisfy their requests with constructive prose on here as to why it should not be implemented this round (ever).
You have no duty as a stats designer to act on idle threats like that, or to listen to fools with no sense of direction or at least the balls to justify such remarks on here. The current stats might be unrounded but the fundamentals behind them are not.
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[1up], Ascendancy Events Organiser & eXilition HC
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8 Jul 2005, 15:12
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#29
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part time ghost
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Grimsby
Posts: 925
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Re: Worries about the new stats
I'm not sure it's a good idea. But I'm certainly not gonna quit if it doesnt go my way! Sheesh. I've been wrong before
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Is this the real life?
Is this just fantasy?
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8 Jul 2005, 18:32
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#30
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Professional AlcoFrolic
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 170
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Re: Worries about the new stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neferti
I'm not sure it's a good idea. But I'm certainly not gonna quit if it doesnt go my way! Sheesh. I've been wrong before
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ditto
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I dont drink, I dont smoke, I dont swear... Oh sh*t I left my fags in the pub
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8 Jul 2005, 19:09
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#31
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Insomniac
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,583
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Re: Worries about the new stats
no matter what you come up with, there will ALWAYS be people who dont like it, and ill-informed people who want you to do the stats they want
Often there are two or more groups pulling you a certain way, and often in conflicting directions.
my advice would be to ignore them for the most part. Listen to competant people only and stick up for what you think is right. If you cant convince a majority of it otherwise, fair enough
Doing stats is incredibly difficult, and people in general just make it harder
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8 Jul 2005, 19:54
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#32
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Pedantic hypocrite
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Back and to the left
Posts: 1,488
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Re: Worries about the new stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
no matter what you come up with, there will ALWAYS be people who dont like it, and ill-informed people who want you to do the stats they want
Often there are two or more groups pulling you a certain way, and often in conflicting directions.
my advice would be to ignore them for the most part. Listen to competant people only and stick up for what you think is right. If you cant convince a majority of it otherwise, fair enough
Doing stats is incredibly difficult, and people in general just make it harder
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Very, very true. Please listen to him.
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I always wanted to be a dancer, but I could never get the shit off my shoes
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8 Jul 2005, 21:01
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#33
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[F-crew] member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: atm - Kansas City
Posts: 80
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Re: Worries about the new stats
I concur, that is a very valid point. But then most noobs think that they are stat balancing programmers.
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[F-Crew] - you know when you have been [FC]ucked
I want what is rightfully MINE . I have much, but need MUCH MORE !!!
R13 - [F-CREW]
R14 - [F-CREW]
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9 Jul 2005, 00:35
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#34
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 327
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Re: Worries about the new stats
why arn't my pegs init 1 yet!! listen to me!!!! or i'll quit PA and play another game!!!!
plz,.. people who said that should be ashamed!!!
Plz, someone who threatoned to quit over the stats,.. PLZ come on here and explain yourselfs,.....
we're reasonable people,.. we'll listen to your explanations over the matter,.,..
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Rocko
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9 Jul 2005, 05:52
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#35
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Insomniac
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,583
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Re: Worries about the new stats
no you wont, you'll make fun of them and you know it :P
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9 Jul 2005, 08:38
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#36
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.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,382
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Re: Worries about the new stats
just like people make fun of the stats?
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9 Jul 2005, 09:13
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#37
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Doh!
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit
Posts: 1,720
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Re: Worries about the new stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
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When I get told I'm not listening by many alliance HCs, one of whom then suggests maybe themselves and others should go play other games instead, I felt I didn't have much choice but to remove steal from the other races.
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Bowing to blackmail is not a good idea, it only leads to more blackmail.
Stand by your own decisions, these so called HC's are only one person, they dont own their alliance players but are merely a catalyst for their alliance, PA players will soon find a new alliance when some overblown self-opinionated retard decides he wants to take his ball home becuase he doesnt like the stats.
I know for certain, that if the HC of an alliance where I was a member came along and said we are all gonna quit PA just because he didnt get his own way, I would soon say get on with it mate, and promptly join another alliance.
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9 Jul 2005, 14:57
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#38
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Worries about the new stats
http://appocomaster.50megs.com/beta.htm these are the stats on the server, and will be the ones we start public beta with. I know I saved it straight from the site, but signups will be opening asap and we've just had a powercut and i've got 30 mins of life left on my laptop, and no excel, so I can't edit it into some pretty other thing I'm afraid.
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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9 Jul 2005, 18:53
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#39
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thinking, that's all.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 867
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Re: Worries about the new stats
I can honestly say, after ploughing through at least each roiding class and what it'll come up against, i'm more happy than I have been with any stats that've been published so far pre-Round 14. I haven't seen for myself the exact way in which the recent stats have worked out in the private beta's but i'm reasonably happy with these pre-public preview. I'll be interested to see how people get on with them. I'm glad you stuck to your original plans. I don't feel Terran are understated given the state of the other three races.
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[1up], Ascendancy Events Organiser & eXilition HC
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9 Jul 2005, 22:00
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#40
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thinking, that's all.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 867
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Re: Worries about the new stats
Cath on Cath attacks are a little concerning, I quite like them on the whole.
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10 Jul 2005, 13:16
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#41
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 327
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Re: Worries about the new stats
xans still scare me a tad, but if you take in to account that chances are their frig and fi fleet will be out attacking,.. then their looking a tad easier
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Rocko
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